New guy here. Im glad I have found this site.

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New guy here. Im glad I have found this site.

Post by ThatGuyYouKnow on Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:36 am

So for years I have been a ME fan just like all of you here. About 2 years ago I really got into the IT. I did a lot of research, viewed a lot of vids and read a lot of theories. I love IT, but what caused me to search for this group was the absolute hate for it. I had joined a group about 6 months ago. It was a discussion group, but I soon learned that its only a discussion group for a certain group of people. IT is so hated and causes so much anger in people. Why? I have no idea and as a ME fan I just wanted to discuss all aspects of ME with like minds. When it come to IT that is just very hard to do. I couldn't believe the level of anger and frustration that come from those on the other side. My post got deleted, my comments got deleted and my discussions. So Im sure a lot of you have been here much longer. Why is IT so hated?

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Post by magnetite on Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:08 am

Bioware turned the non-ITers into these.

They rage like mindless husks, because they can't see past the literal version of the ending (what you see and hear is what you think is happening). All the "plot holes", "space magic", and other literal labels for the ending can be tossed away when you add IT to the picture because it all makes sense and the literal version doesn't.

Bioware successfully indoctrinated them in other words.
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Post by ThatGuyYouKnow on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:05 pm

I have never seen anything like it. It just generates so much hate its crazy. In the group I tried discussing it others would immediately blow up once it was mentioned. Its almost childish actually. Me, I looked at a lot of things before I came to my conclusion. Whats also outrageous is those who hate IT so much don't actually even know what it is. This becomes obvious when you start discussing it with them. In a debate I at least research both sides, but those guys have no clue.

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Post by WeAreHarbinger on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:36 pm

IT is so hated because it rationalized a really shitty literal ending and made it all actually click into place quite neatly. It would of meant that a lot of people basically got trolled in a very meta way by the reapers. That when you look back over the course of the trilogy, all the evidence is there and they didn't pay attention.

It would of made people question a lot about how they observe, and how easy they are to manipulate. Also it would of made at least 2 out of the 3 choices, bad, shitty and defunct...so there's that.

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Post by ThatGuyYouKnow on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:57 pm

WeAreHarbinger wrote:IT is so hated because it rationalized a really shitty literal ending and made it all actually click into place quite neatly. It would of meant that a lot of people basically got trolled in a very meta way by the reapers. That when you look back over the course of the trilogy, all the evidence is there and they didn't pay attention.

It would of made people question a lot about how they observe, and how easy they are to manipulate. Also it would of made at least 2 out of the 3 choices, bad, shitty and defunct...so there's that.

Yeah, I agree. I didn't like ME3 anywhere near as much as I liked 1 and 2. I remember when I beat the game for the first time and I was thinking to myself "what the hell just happened"? It just didn't make sense, the ending was just too weird. When that final encounter with harbinger happened I just knew something was off. IT makes it all fit and even make it more tolerable.

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Post by Der Wahnsinn on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:10 am

Willkommen, Nice to see another sane person. For me those "fans",bioderps, people who like the "ending?" ,you name it, are insane. So yeah, exactly full of hate no capable of seeing anything or ... whatever.
Pure Insane, they are some undeniable proofs for it, but what they are saying ? ... things like : " Shepard can't be indoctrinated because I'm Shepard and I'm not Indoctrinated" (something like that I've read that somewhere on that forum) . It shows you what kind of people are they.
I was a user of BSN for a long time, that was pure circus of stupidity. You know that's something totally different, those people like you said are not going to discuss with you just...... ban ...  Usually when people are fans of some title they like to disscuss with each other about many things, they disagree or whatever,  but not ban each other. It's like speaking with wall.

We all agree that Mass Effect is not another episode of Dragon Ball Z. If ending is literally then Shepard should be dead... end of disscussion but at the end, at the very end he/she surivies all that things (yeah I'm talking about destroy option). IT says all, but no they are going to ban you and are going to say incredible bullshit, how it is possible to survive reaper LASER ( YES HUGE FUCKING LASER THAT CAN DESTROY HUGE FUCKING SPACESHIP) , then how it is possible to survive HUGE FUCKING BLAST yes another huge fucking deadly thing......ok enough I know to much swearing but bioderps are denying whole medcine...
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Post by ThatGuyYouKnow on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:33 am

Der Wahnsinn wrote:Willkommen, Nice to see another sane person. For me those "fans",bioderps, people who like the "ending?" ,you name it, are insane. So yeah, exactly full of hate no capable of seeing anything or ... whatever.
Pure Insane, they are some undeniable proofs for it, but what they are saying ? ... things like : " Shepard can't be indoctrinated because I'm Shepard and I'm not Indoctrinated" (something like that I've read that somewhere on that forum) . It shows you what kind of people are they.
I was a user of BSN for a long time, that was pure circus of stupidity. You know that's something totally different, those people like you said are not going to discuss with you just...... ban ...  Usually when people are fans of some title they like to disscuss with each other about many things, they disagree or whatever,  but not ban each other. It's like speaking with wall.

We all agree that Mass Effect is not another episode of Dragon Ball Z. If ending is literally then Shepard should be dead... end of disscussion but at the end, at the very end he/she surivies all that things (yeah I'm talking about destroy option). IT says all, but no they are going to ban you and are going to say incredible bullshit, how it is possible to survive reaper LASER ( YES HUGE FUCKING LASER THAT CAN DESTROY HUGE FUCKING SPACESHIP) , then how it is possible to survive HUGE FUCKING BLAST yes another huge fucking deadly thing......ok enough I know to much swearing but bioderps are denying whole medcine...

Lol. With you. The laser, the eyes when you pick control or synthesis, the fact that Shep survives, the obvious signs of indoctrination taking place all through ME3, the abdominal bullet wound that only appears after Shep shooting Anderson, the fact that Anderson was even there and so much more. It is just too much to dismiss. What is also ironic is they will say that was debunked. Then I ask them how and thats when the anger comes out. Meanwhile they never answer the questions lol.

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Post by magnetite on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:54 am

I remember some guy saying indoctrination doesn't create dreams, and I told him that it wasn't a dream, it was presented as "in your mind" but not as a dream.

I'll have to find the quote on how he worded it.

Edit:
Here: (second post)

-2- You do know that Indoctrination does NOT work the way IT is saying it works right?

-The codex is VERY specific on what indoctrination is and does. And the codex tells us that indoctrination does NOT create dreams, does not trick people, and is not breakable.

Heh, okay. I guess he might think this way if he literally reads the codex word for word.
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Post by Der Wahnsinn on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:27 pm

ThatGuyYouKnow wrote:Lol. With you. The laser, the eyes when you pick control or synthesis, the fact that Shep survives, the obvious signs of indoctrination taking place all through ME3, the abdominal bullet wound that only appears after Shep shooting Anderson, the fact that Anderson was even there and so much more. It is just too much to dismiss. What is also ironic is they will say that was debunked. Then I ask them how and thats when the anger comes out. Meanwhile they never answer the questions lol.

Ah yes IT debunked, Oh Mein Gott,
I remember a video on YT on that, some girl saying bullshit, and she was just proving IT ! but she was very convinced that she is debunking it ! yes 
It was something like that: about that kid she was saying that he is a symbol of people that Shepard was not able to rescue ( taken from book art) and that is disproving IT, WAS ?!?!?!? how ???? it is a proof,   so what does this mean ? he is not real FOR FUCK'S SAKE. If the kid is real then all proofs about him being the reaper are not going to work well.
"eyes are useless if the mind is blind"
clearly their minds are blind as hell,
 The last 15-20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 are just pure waves of: "WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON !!!! "
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Post by windsurfing on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:50 am

IMHO it's fairly simple, if anything like I.T was infact intended it means (from hater POV atleast ) the opposer/haters who didn't think of it were not intelligent enough to have figured it out on their own.

It boils down to inferiority complex.

The rest of the "whys" are just details.

There is no need for such sentiment, we can't all think of the same thing all the time, happens every time in the field of science/critical thinking, many things one great scientist discovered or invented were not thought of by other great scientists. Doesn't imply one is less smart than the other. This the haters fail miserably at understanding.

There are yet another group of people who disagree with I.T but they don't vehemently hate it, for now they are just not convinced. They are open to accepting it if Bioware comes out with a clear answer either in the form of a follow up expansion or a categorical statement or through some other medium of confirmation (novels?) These people are far more reasonable.
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Post by Rifneno on Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:37 am

Welcome to the forum.

And yeah, I'm gonna echo these statements about people being stupid assholes and lashing out at being proven wrong. What I find amazing is how this mirrors other theories on games out there. When I looked at some other controversial game theories, like Rinoa being Ultimecia (Final Fantasy 8) there was a remarkable amount of parallels. Even the opposing group spreading a false rumor about the company having said it isn't true.

magnetite wrote:I remember some guy saying indoctrination doesn't create dreams, and I told him that it wasn't a dream, it was presented as "in your mind" but not as a dream.

That's fucking retarded.

When Arrival was released, BW told us it was "a bridge between ME2 and ME3". Did you listen to the audio logs there? There's not one but TWO by people succumbing to indoctrination that talks about dreams. One just says "I'm not the only one having those dreams!" and the other talks a bit more in length about how the Reapers are tormenting them. Showing them the deaths of their loved ones, giving them guilt trips, ect. It is thematically if not literally much like Shepard's dreams.

When Paul Grayson is undergoing indoctrination in the Retribution novel, he also makes mention of dreams. He can't remember them so we don't get a good description of what he was shown, but he is left with the impression that they were disturbing enough that not being able to remember their content is viewed as a mercy.

Even moreso, what Bioware fan would think dreams are just dreams? BW has been using dreams like this for a lot of games. It's never just dreams, they're always foreshadowing something more sinister. Fucking always. Always, motherfucker! The PC of Baldur's Gate has weird dreams. Weird dreams are because s/he's biological father is Bhaal, the god of murder. Same PC has weird dreams in BG2. This time, it's because an emo elf has literally stolen his soul and you're just an empty husk whithering until you recover it. PC of KoTOR has weird dreams, it's foreshadowing that the past he's forgotten is because he was Darth Revan, which I assume is a big deal (I'm not big into Star Wars). The Warden has weird dreams in DAO, and this is the only time it's not for some sinister reveal in the future. Because it's for a sinister reveal right the fuck now, as Alistair tells them as soon as they wake up the dreams are because Wardens are part of the darkspawn "hivemind" (for lack of a better word) and there's a literal tainted god infesting their mind.

But yeah, I'm sure Shepard's dreams are totally just flavor.

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Post by WeAreHarbinger on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:16 pm

When anyone says Indoctrination doesn't cause dreams i automatically think back to Arrival. Also the audio logs in the derelict reaper mission, those 2 missions really seal it for me.

"Damn, that thing, that grey thing just disappeared when i looked right at it. It came out of the damn wall, where we took off that panel".
Remind you of anyone?

Then there's Shep's dreams in ME 3. All have really sinister signs. The feeling of helplessness (losing weapons and armor over the course of them). The final one made me O.o, the moment my Shep reached the child and embraced it..he burned. Sorry all i got from that was "Don't trust the child".
The dreams aren't flavour or filler, just without the correct IT ending i feel was planned all along they just don't fit right and people were claiming it was PTSD and some bullshit.

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Post by dorktainian on Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:48 pm

Bioderp will never fess up to IT now. Shame really.

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Post by ThatGuyYouKnow on Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:45 pm

WeAreHarbinger wrote:When anyone says Indoctrination doesn't cause dreams i automatically think back to Arrival. Also the audio logs in the derelict reaper mission, those 2 missions really seal it for me.

"Damn, that thing, that grey thing just disappeared when i looked right at it. It came out of the damn wall, where we took off that panel".
Remind you of anyone?

Then there's Shep's dreams in ME 3. All have really sinister signs. The feeling of helplessness (losing weapons and armor over the course of them). The final one made me O.o, the moment my Shep reached the child and embraced it..he burned. Sorry all i got from that was "Don't trust the child".  
The dreams aren't flavour or filler, just without the correct IT ending i feel was planned all along they just don't fit right and people were claiming it was PTSD and some bullshit.

I completely agree with this. Not to mention when you get up there to the catalyst/starchild he looks just like the child. If it were an actual child there that Shep hd been seeing the only way the catalyst/starchild would have looked like him is if he was inside Sheps head and presenting himself as that to make Shep feel more guilty about the child dying. Well we know the indoctrination process get inside your head as you mentioned with those two on the derelict reaper. It not only make perfect sense until a person give a rational explanation for it, its the only option that fits.

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Post by magnetite on Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:26 am

I haven't played Mass Effect for probably 3 years, so I kind of forget all the details.

I get the overall gist of things though.

Reapers are trying to convince you to join their cause. You either submit to them through indoctrination, or tell them off and destroy them.

Or if your EMS is really low, they don't want to indoctrinate you, so they give you the option to commit suicide.

Everything in between is a blur.
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Post by ZerebusPrime on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:59 am

From the point Shepard's transport crashes to the start of the breath scene, I trust nothing.

That includes the possible destruction of the Reapers, though this is the only way to get the breath scene and have Shepard "wake up" from the final nightmare of the game: it's ending!

The breath scene also tells me that Shepard is not lying on the exterior of the Citadel. The so called Decision Chamber is exposed to space, hence EDI's earlier quip "One shouldn't make moral decisions in a vacuum." We hear wind in the breath scene. There's a turned over Mako past the smoke. That's enough to call shenanigans in itself but some people can't take a hint. Point of fact, I read a reddit comment praising the Synthesis ending because it espouses that person's transhumanist views of the world. It apparently takes a lot less than I thought to convince someone to dive into a particle beam.
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Post by dorktainian on Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:14 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:From the point Shepard's transport crashes to the start of the breath scene, I trust nothing.

This. actually I don't trust anything after cronos station. Actually after the final dream it's welcome to la la land.

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Post by WeAreHarbinger on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:26 pm

I'm in the "It starts from Harbinger's beam" camp. I trust nothing on Earth, but the actual hallucination starts from the moment he's knocked out, EC confirming this because they changed it from a direct shot pre EC to a none direct one post EC, to knock Shep out and not kill them.

Starbrat is most certainly a hallucination. TIM & Anderson are Shepard's "Angel & Devil" for choice in his mind, and my Shep is still lying where the beam heads upto..well wherever the hell it actually goes to, probably something similar to the human reaper we see in 2..but that's pure speculation

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Post by dorktainian on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:49 pm

but if you look at ME3 itself, shepard is undergoing indoctrination from very early in the game. You could almost suggest it starts when he is knocked out in the commitee room. However once the dreams start then it's fairly safe to assume it's really happening.

I agree with the premise that Shep is laying in the rubble at the base of the beam. For me at that point is when the heavy indoctrination began. The reapers are out of time and now must indoctrinate him quickly, resulting in shep losing certain motor functions and in the blatant oily shadows. Harbinger no longer sees shep as a threat because it knows.

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Post by magnetite on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:47 pm

Back in the day someone pointed out that the beam that takes you up to the Citadel is called "conduit". Like the one on Ilos, if you tried to go through it on foot instead of driving through with the Mako, you will die.
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:11 pm

Welcome!

I remember vividly the arguments I had back when the game was just released.

There are two major reasons for IT hate.

1. The ending of ME3 caused an absolutely unprecedented fan outrage worldwide. There had never been (and hasn't been since) a bigger outrage about a freaking game. I remember seeing the Mass Effect ending outrage being mentioned on the 8 o'clock new on TV, and it was just unreal. People were RAGING. Bioware forums were on freaking fire. And you know, that's the thing. People were so fucking mad. One video after the other popped up on youtube, listing all the reasons why people were hating it. And amidst all that, there were a few people who took the time to think and said: "Not so quick you guys, this might actually be the most genius ending ever."

So that right there is a major factor. Everybody was hating on it, and suddenly there's people saying it could be the best ending ever. It was the biggest provocation we could have given the haters. That alone was enough.

Especially when we said "If IT is true, then Bioware actually succeeded in indoctrinating the player into going along with the Reapers". This pissed people off beyond words.

I remember messaging my gaming buddy from London, who had completed the game before I had. He kept messaging me, asking if I'd finished already. So when I had, and had spent the night thinking and pondering, I dropped him a message saying I thought it could actually be an indoctrination attempt, and I was actually really excited by the idea. (IT was already a thing at that point, it was still in early stages, but I hadn't heard of it yet.)

He started freaking yelling at me, stuff along the lines of "OMG don't tell me you're into IT, the ending is not genius, it's godawful, IT is just clutching at straws you moron!"

I had to ask him what he meant by "IT", and that's how I learned there was actually a group of people who seemed to have the same idea.

2. The implications of IT being true are really unpleasant for the people who actually like and support the control and synthesis endings. Not only does it invalidate their outcome, but they were also suckered into it.

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Post by magnetite on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:30 am

Bioware's twitter feed has so much proof they were indoctrinating the player.
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Post by Der Wahnsinn on Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:10 pm

Ok maybe kinda off topic but It this only me or N7HQ site works like shit. Are they going to shut down servers ? Something is happening ? or maybe It is only me having trouble with that site.
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Post by dorktainian on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:56 am

magnetite wrote:Bioware's twitter feed has so much proof they were indoctrinating the player.

never mind BIowares twitter feed, the game itself did a pretty good job of that from the get go.


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Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:57 pm

From the demo, even.
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