(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:11 pm

Eryri wrote:Well guys, it may look as though ME:Andromeda is full of butchered lore, an ill conceived plot and eldritch facial animations, but "have a little faith" as someone once said. Here's an excerpt from the Prequel novel that addresses all those concerns ;-)

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/03/20/mass-effect-andromeda-prequel/#more-435293

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by XXIceColdXX on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:48 am

Anything in Andromeda to support IT guys ??




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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:50 am

XXIceColdXX wrote:Anything in Andromeda to support IT guys ??

Lots of little bits. Look upwards on the thread.

But little bits and Shepard themselves, or really almost any reference to the Reapers, are minimal references.

Maybe as ITers play the game and get completionist, there can be some special finds in the corner.

But is that enough? Personally, not enough to get excited about anything. At most a little intrigued.

And in MEA its arguably less the 'indoctrination' word and more an interfacing. Though that's probably more how the Reapers themselves see their process.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:48 am

lol

“Nobody cares about the fucking floating rocks!” Tann gritted his teeth. He was a bipedal amphibian from the other side of the galaxy, and even he’d seen Avatar. “Why did we bother, people? Why did come out all this way if everything was just going be the same as home?”
“At least there’s no Reapers?”
“What’s a-” His fingers made air-quotes of their own volition- “Reaper?”
“Oh, yeah. We don’t know that yet.” The asari paused. “Is my right eyeball stuck in the corner of my eye again?”
“Yes.”
“Goddess. I’ll go pop it back into place with a cocktail stick.”


Genious.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by vlad78 on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:03 pm

windsurfing wrote:
vlad78 wrote:
About the game, some said the facial animations work much better if you have a very powerful computer, can someone confirm?
I've seen things both terrible and terrific in the videos. It probably won't be the best ME game, but it won't be a totally crappy game imho. And I love peebee.

That's all bro-science nothing more. The animations are not like shader code, it is a pre-baked set of repeatable routines after motion capture of the movements of a real human artist. The run through of the routine is too trivial even a system from 1997 can do it no problem. The compute is very trivial because it is not a varying random set of computations. In Bioware's case performance MoCap only seems to be done from the neck down for most characters. Alec Ryder and Dunn seem like exceptions, though the quality isn't on the level of true facial MoCap there either. Facial animations have been hand animated, a technique Bioware has been using for ages without any interest to improve upon based on the technologies available today. Today you can do high fidelity facial renders that give near life like expressions true to tone of dialogue being delivered. So many games already employ varieties of technologies to achieve this, they only cut back on textures and shader compute to save GPU compute power. The big embarrassment is that the trilogy has better hand animated expressions than ME:A. This is a sign of skill difference, who ever did it in the past for the trilogy are no longer on this project and it shows.

The animations are not going to change until they add in new MoCap assets that include the faces. This means calling on performers to go through all the cut scenes all over again. If any models/VOs were used, need to call them up, book slots and make arrangements to suit their schedules. The amount of cut scenes alone will make the effort prohibitively time consuming, if such an update was delivered 5-6 months after the game launches what's the point when most who bought it already finished the game? First impression is everything. Not happening, they are busy fighting people on twitter for posting honest fair critiques about the game. Bioware are too arrogant they wont change anything now. It wont be long before Bioware labels anyone who complains about the animations as a "vocal monitory" Laughing

Honestly, that's not what bothers me most. What i really fear is getting bored by endless meaningless sidequests just like DA inquisition did before that.


Anyway what real informations do we have about the remnants?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:12 pm

vlad78 wrote:
windsurfing wrote:
vlad78 wrote:
About the game, some said the facial animations work much better if you have a very powerful computer, can someone confirm?
I've seen things both terrible and terrific in the videos. It probably won't be the best ME game, but it won't be a totally crappy game imho. And I love peebee.

That's all bro-science nothing more. The animations are not like shader code, it is a pre-baked set of repeatable routines after motion capture of the movements of a real human artist. The run through of the routine is too trivial even a system from 1997 can do it no problem. The compute is very trivial because it is not a varying random set of computations. In Bioware's case performance MoCap only seems to be done from the neck down for most characters. Alec Ryder and Dunn seem like exceptions, though the quality isn't on the level of true facial MoCap there either. Facial animations have been hand animated, a technique Bioware has been using for ages without any interest to improve upon based on the technologies available today. Today you can do high fidelity facial renders that give near life like expressions true to tone of dialogue being delivered. So many games already employ varieties of technologies to achieve this, they only cut back on textures and shader compute to save GPU compute power. The big embarrassment is that the trilogy has better hand animated expressions than ME:A. This is a sign of skill difference, who ever did it in the past for the trilogy are no longer on this project and it shows.

The animations are not going to change until they add in new MoCap assets that include the faces. This means calling on performers to go through all the cut scenes all over again. If any models/VOs were used, need to call them up, book slots and make arrangements to suit their schedules. The amount of cut scenes alone will make the effort prohibitively time consuming, if such an update was delivered 5-6 months after the game launches what's the point when most who bought it already finished the game? First impression is everything. Not happening, they are busy fighting people on twitter for posting honest fair critiques about the game. Bioware are too arrogant they wont change anything now. It wont be long before Bioware labels anyone who complains about the animations as a "vocal monitory" Laughing

Honestly, that's not what bothers me most. What i really fear is getting bored by endless meaningless sidequests just like DA inquisition did before that.




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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:10 pm

Well, at least it's not like ME3 with Shepard picking up side quests by stalking random civvies on the Citadel.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by magnetite on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:16 pm

XXIceColdXX wrote:Anything in Andromeda to support IT guys ??

Oh my, yes.

Spoiler:

The Angaran have been transformed and ascended into Kett. The unaltered Angaran are plain Angaran. The Kett are Angaran who have ascended and been mutated into Kett through genetic manipulation. Like Shepard, they don't question it and just go along with everything. Like they've been brainwashed. It's like a church indoctrination cult. The Archon is the leader of the cult.

The big reveal (above) comes when you assault the main Kett base on Voeld.

I think that means IT confirmed.


Last edited by magnetite on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:25 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:20 pm

Cerberus spoilers:

Spoiler:
The Cerberus sidemission involves a couple ex-Cerberus scientists who left as they got some word of the Lazarus Project. Perhaps they were part of the Lazarus Project cell. They believed it was a nonsense waste of so much Cerberus resources so they successfully fled onto the Andromeda Initiative. We discover that they're running experiments various aliens, similar to the nature of ME1 sidemissions, but this time they're seemingly trying to indoctrinate - without using that word - in order to discover how to gain an edge in long term in Andromeda. The intention is to try to make a 'hive mind super artificial intelligence', with these organic minds supposedly acting as cells of it.

Ryder seems unable to kill the scientists, but always disapproves.
We have a choice:
-modify the signal to ease the changes that happen to the aliens and leave it at that
-destroy the signal but destroy the aliens' minds in the process
-walk way


Now how did they get on board? Unknown. Anything from them just being lucky and sly, to Cerberus/TIM being aware and wanting to sneak aboard something of Cerberus for some super goal, without being traced so directly. *shrug*

Don't look at this content too deeply though. Its possibly even less direct Cerberus material than ME1, but maybe there's more out there I dunno.

However, the idea of 'hive mind superintelligence fueled by organics' may have an importance.


I think there's a gist here - MEA has material throughout it that directly or even arguably directly support concepts of IT, but do not directly address ME3 itself.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:24 pm

magnetite wrote:
XXIceColdXX wrote:Anything in Andromeda to support IT guys ??

Oh my, yes.

Spoiler:

The Angaran have been transformed and ascended into Kett. The unaltered Angaran are plain Angaran. The Kett are Angaran who have ascended and been mutated into Kett through genetic manipulation. Like Shepard, they don't question it and just go along with everything. Like they've been brainwashed. It's like a church indoctrination cult. The Archon is the leader of the cult.

I think that means IT confirmed.

Spoiler:
Yes the Kett are Super Indoctrinated. Organic or at least organic-sided beings that seem merged with tech and/or all sorts of other species. They're like the worst considered outcome of Synthesis, minus the blatant effect of it (Crucible shooting), minus the most horrific considerations of it (insert Banshee nursing asari baby pic) - but close enough. They're sympathetic enough to, well, be people with their own things, but they're all part of the huge ass 'cult' and don't really have a way around that. They act like how we'd imagine a fully Neo Indoctrinated Super Shepard would act, only without reference to Reapers and other obviously network aspects. Meanwhile the network stuff goes to Ryder themselves with SAM...


This is cool and all, but it'd be a damn shame if this MEA stuff is all only gleaning from concepts considered to show in the trilogy, and still deciding never to really relate to the trilogy itself again. But if MEA is instead more of an instruction manual for the IT casuals, before bigger reveals, perhaps not all is lost. I just wouldn't presume any of that.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Jusseb on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:18 am

In this new 'andromeda' series they can never return to earth right? Because if they do, earth will probably be thousands of years further in time. The reapers have probably already synthesized everything and/or the earth depleted all her resources.

So if EA/Bioware ever regret from going this route they have to abandon this timeline en go back before they launched this dreadfull initiative.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:26 am

Jusseb wrote:In this new 'andromeda' series they can never return to earth right? Because if they do, earth will probably be thousands of years further in time. The reapers have probably already synthesized everything and/or the earth depleted all her resources.  

So if EA/Bioware ever regret from going this route they have to abandon this timeline en go back before they launched this dreadfull initiative.

The whole thing with Andromeda is that even the Asari that joined, went with the presumption that considering their age, a way back 'home' might be possible within centuries and therefore their lifespan. The story has it as part of the selling point to them.

There's easily some sort of setup to allow going to the Milky Way. He's already messing with the 'space' part of 'time and space' in the mass effect, with the Heleus storyline.

And the way there and back would be like 1500 years max. That's a ton of human lifetimes but one krogan or asari lifetime.

Not to mention all sorts of Super Mac Walters potentials with warped time stuff.

If anything, the Ai stuff is to 'preserve' a new form of the old setting (with 'social reforms' clearly added, like female salarians able to try other occupations and male salarians more open to leading, krogan focusing on building as much as fighting, humanity's progress fixation softened while not letting go of it, etc etc - all the 'Initiative' now), if even in case we go back to the Milky Way and see shit is actually fucked. This is the safe title with the safe society and we don't know if that's just the casual friendly position ME is always going to take, or whether it is setup for future shocks. (If DA though is any indication, the DAI 'safe title' did already lead to the Trespasser reveal DLC, which was at least a shakeup of some sort)

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:27 am

Alright guys. I've played 10 hours or so of Single player and about 4ish of multiplayer.


Here's my initial verdict.



Mass Effect 3 is vastly better.



And that's that. GG BioWare. You hit a new rock bottom!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:43 am

Jusseb wrote:In this new 'andromeda' series they can never return to earth right? Because if they do, earth will probably be thousands of years further in time. The reapers have probably already synthesized everything and/or the earth depleted all her resources.

So if EA/Bioware ever regret from going this route they have to abandon this timeline en go back before they launched this dreadfull initiative.

It would be a lot more than that. When you take into account Relativity. Just because it takes 600 mac walters years to get to andromeda, you still have to base the trip on known laws of physics.

2.5 million light years. 2.5 Million years travelling at the speed of light. Then theres the analysis of the so called golden planets in a galaxy 2.5 million light years away and the assumption that they would be as we would see them now when we get there, when they would have undergone 2.5 million years of transformation.

As my son said, the only way going to andromeda would make any kind of sense to anyone would be if the fleet left during the reaper invasion through necessity. Going to explore when there is so much left to explore in the milky way is for one reason only.

Mass effect 3's ending, and them not wanting to admit IT is legit.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:24 pm

Oh holy hell.  The VI's in the cultural exchange area are hilarious. I haven't laughed that hard in quite a while!
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:06 pm

dorktainian wrote:
Jusseb wrote:In this new 'andromeda' series they can never return to earth right? Because if they do, earth will probably be thousands of years further in time. The reapers have probably already synthesized everything and/or the earth depleted all her resources.  

So if EA/Bioware ever regret from going this route they have to abandon this timeline en go back before they launched this dreadfull initiative.

It would be a lot more than that.  When you take into account Relativity.  Just because it takes 600 mac walters years to get to andromeda, you still have to base the trip on known laws of physics.

2.5 million light years.  2.5 Million years travelling at the speed of light.  Then theres the analysis of the so called golden planets in a galaxy 2.5 million light years away and the assumption that they would be as we would see them now when we get there, when they would have undergone 2.5 million years of transformation.

As my son said, the only way going to andromeda would make any kind of sense to anyone would be if the fleet left during the reaper invasion through necessity.  Going to explore when there is so much left to explore in the milky way is for one reason only.

Mass effect 3's ending, and them not wanting to admit IT is legit.

Okay with a bit of info?

Spoiler:
They left at the time they did because of the Reapers, and there's signs throughout the dialogue and codex that it was at least somewhat rushed (also 'explaining' why a 5th ark of Quarians, Drell, Hanar, Elcor, Volus hadn't left yet, but we may still see it). Various sorts of negotiations were still ongoing, with the Alliance, Council, Flotilla for various things, but its possible that after ME1 got some people aware of the Reapers, some newer ME2 info spooked the Ai enough to set a new launch date and act like everything is ok about that.

The Ai was started decades ago by a wealthy woman who is supposed to fit the Musk type (there is even a new reference to Musk in the Codex), wanting to make it her life's work - besides profit - to set up expansion outside of the Milky Way. A whole 'humans are the ones who most endeavor to make dreams happen' idea, I guess. It is noted that other species had tried to set up similar project, especially the asari, but they inevitably would step back. The Ai was going to do the same, if only for eventual lack of funds and resources, but a particular 'investor' (basically to be Cerberus, but not named and perhaps able to be changed) jump started it and the momentum opened up more interest, especially after ME1 when various elite quarters are rumbling about the Reapers or at least dangers after the Geth attack. Jien Garson may or may not have been aware of the Reapers, but of course aware of the rumors, aware of some sort of danger, and in contact with some form of Cerberus (covert or overt) in order to get her dream made into reality. The project is not primarily funded by Cerberus - it is remembered that the Lazarus Project and other Projects really hurt their financials in the ME2 time - but they do provide enough capital to make it return as a viable prospect to various galactic investors, likely including the Council's interest. Alec Ryder is in earlier ME2 time made aware of the Reapers but more as a rumor, then later ME2 time as a more likely reality, but no one knows for sure because the Reapers hadn't arrived yet.

But the point is, the higher ups were aware of the risk of the Reapers returning, may or may not have been alerted to a more imminent invasion (did they leave just as Batarians were being attacked? Arrival-time? Something else?), and had an extra urgency to leave ASAP and to understand the Initiative as something that for all they know, the galaxy is counting on to survive with. They just don't know any of that for certain, and are keeping it a secret from almost all members so matters don't get worse.

We can't know the truth from Jien Garson (yet?) because she died. First it was thought to be from a disaster, but then it is discovered she was killed, possibly by Cerberus, for some reason. I don't have much info on that yet.

There is reason to go back to the Milky Way already. The whole point is that it is a two-way trip for the Ai society (just not necessarily individuals), and attempts to have communication with the Milky Way - even very delayed communication - are so far failing. If QEC was hoped for and set up, they're not working. We know why that'd be the case, because Reapers are destroying the few QEC that are not kept under strong protection, and it takes two established partners to maintain QEC connection. But the Milky Way not advancing to any point in 600 years to at least try to REACH Andromeda? Curious, at least. This is supposedly a galaxy that has been reverse engineering Reapers, or with controlled Reapers, or merged with Reapers... right? ;)

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:37 pm

Too many spoilers. I'm gonna have to jet out of here until after I beat the game. ....one month from now. Ninja
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ElSuperGecko on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:10 pm

So what are the odds that the next Mass Effect game (should it ever get greenlighted) would take place around 3-4 years after the events in this game, and see more ships turn up from the Milky Way, packed with refugees and dire warnings...

Because we all know Bioware would LOVE to jump on the refugee political bandwagon...

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:11 pm

ElSuperGecko wrote:So what are the odds that the next Mass Effect game (should it ever get greenlighted) would take place around 3-4 years after the events in this game, and see more ships turn up from the Milky Way, packed with refugees and dire warnings...

Because we all know Bioware would LOVE to jump on the refugee political bandwagon...

The more I play MEA the more I'm counting on it.

Or even that it begins in post-ending MEA DLC and starts setting things in an uproar enough that it entices people into a next game.

Everything feels too safe. And at least judging from DAI (I know, there's a difference there), it isn't meant to stay quite so safe. A great way would be things like refugees from Milky Way with stories, SAM not being as much of an ally as thought (Halo 4-5 vibes), etc.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:13 am

Bought this game. OMG it is sooooo unfinished it's almost criminal.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:30 pm

I haven't bought it. My friend invited me over to try out some multiplayer on the Xbone though. Haven't seen anything from the Single Player.

About the multiplayer:

+The added verticality in maps and the whole jetpack dynamic are cool, but make things more hectic and it all takes some getting used to.

+Aiming is good, and combat is fun in general.

-I played for 4 hours and within that time experienced 2 crashes to desktop and one complete freeze. Cost a lot of XP and credits.

-I'm missing a lot of audiovisual cues. Some important things, like reviving teammates, priming enemies with annihilation field etc. have no obvious audiovisual clues. It's really frustrating. Also, because of all the new (or totally absent) sound effects, I can't tell when I lost my shields/when something is biotically detonated, etc. It's frustrating.

-It's just really buggy and unpolished. This is what you get when you decide you don't need to beta test. Epic fail.

-It takes an awful lot of time and effort to level up kits. I've heard you can get them to about level 15/16 by levelling up normally, and then you need to level up the remaining levels by unlocking rare or ultra rare character cards. They did this to more synchronize the levelling up of characters with the levelling up of weapons. THIS IS A FUCKING TERRIBLE IDEA BECAUSE MORE GRINDING. Especially because you need to level up kits individually now, you can't level up the entire class by playing just a single or a few kits.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:32 am

Also, you can't get a cooldown better than 100% any more. I haven't played with a fully levelled kit, but even with 100%, cooldowns are long, even on a simple Overload or Throw. Seems like the days of the power builds with fast cooldowns are gone.

So are the days of reload cancelling your Claymore. Bye-bye.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:48 am

I have to say that it took a while but now that I'm equipped up with a Widow sniper rifle and enough tech and combat skills to make fighting less stressful the game feels a lot like the original Mass Effect upgraded with Mass Effect 3 weapons.

I am still missing those ME2 heavy weapons, though. There are enemies in this game begging to get shot with a Cain.

I can look past the flaws; they're nothing I haven't seen before. Planetary exploration in the Nomad is where it's at! The Mako 2.0 feels very much like a Mako with far better physics. If you get lost in the boonies of Eos or wherever without your vehicle, you're either going to die from exposure or else you're in for a very long trek either back to where you parked or to a safe point; just like in ME1 only less harsh. Ramming works at least as well as in ME1 as far as man-sized targets go, too. Plus witty banter triggers!
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:20 am

Completed the main story in Eos so it'll now be less of a slog.

Tried MP but PC definitely does NOT do well enough to make that enjoyable.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Eryri on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:13 am

Eurogamer has some advice about getting the most out of the game. The video does seem a little bit like damning with faint praise.



Spoiler:
they suggest doing the terraforming missions first to make the side quests easier without having to worry about life support so much, and skipping lots of the more peripheral side missions.
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