(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Wed May 17, 2017 3:35 am

crash23 wrote:"A lot of people would rather get behind a story than face reality." -Drack
"More of a dream, really. Just one more thing to take apart and figure out." - Jaal
"You must dream of a home of your own." - Ryder
"This is a dream of mine", "I've always dreamed", "keep the dream alive", this is one big nightmare".
"This is what we've always dreamed about..." - Alec

Don't forget what mission the word nightmare was used in.  It was when we were about to find out what the Kett do to their prisoners.

Late EDIT: The word nightmare is also used in a throwaway line in the very first mission on Habitat 7. It seems less Reaperish now.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Fri May 26, 2017 10:09 pm

The latest APEX multiplayer mission references the Quarian Ark. These missions were probably all written up well in advance of the release of the game, expecting to sync up with DLC.

Awkward.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat May 27, 2017 8:22 pm

Yeah, looks like there's no more DLC coming now that the franchise is "on ice".

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Sat May 27, 2017 9:25 pm

On ice? I didn't get that at all from these articles.

They'd edit the APEX articles if DLC was internally cancelled. It was just a sentence tagged onto the very end that could have easily been removed before posting.

Developers move from studio to studio every time.

At worst I take this stuff as maybe a confirmation that we won't get a Mass Effect in a couple years, since they'll be focusing more on other EA titles, 'Dylan', DA4. And if so, then good. I don't want to see another ME game for another 3+ years as I don't trust them with 2 years.

That's not to say ME can't be on ice or isn't already on ice - I just don't take these articles and 'sources', and especially how these 'journalists' interpret these things, as confirmations.

I certainly don't take them as confirmations that they won't be releasing SP DLC. With the APEX article, I lean towards a Quarian DLC releasing this June or so. Beyond that, no clue.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Sat May 27, 2017 9:39 pm

I also want to express that I think that when EA/Bioware talks about 'continued live service', that can theoretically very well just mean that they prioritize being able to continually make profit from MP packs, but this just means that any SP ties into MP and vice-versa. It doesn't necessarily mean no more SP DLC, or that its just smokescreen for all players only getting just a few patches over months.


If they have an established schedule for MP events and tag SP DLC into that (like say, the discovery of the Quarians), then that's a focus on being a 'live service' that tries to get every Mass Effect player interested in both SP and MP proceedings. They had this in ME3 too, sure, but only a start of this approach (note how MP updates could be considered to go along the ME3 story and then into a wackier off-Shepard direction), and it got stronger with DAI and they may be into the swing of things with MEA. So it can just mean that its not just about SP DLC, but a continuing marketing, engagement, release schedule, community events, etc. All timed and due to release when it is meant to.

While I don't think we should expect another ME game any time soon (and then if the 'Dylan' thing is rather sci-fi and does amazingly, maybe never for all we know), I take any of these reports to just mean that at worst, they're scaling back production more than otherwise, because of incentive to make better profit off of upcoming 1-2+ projects that they didn't make off MEA.

Also, if the Mass Effect film is (surprisingly) still a thing, and still will be a thing, I don't see Bioware dropping the game series, but just trying to be better prepared for next time (or well, at least remastering the trilogy I suppose).


My point: I wouldn't assume EA is going to kill off a potential golden goose just yet. Is it possible? Sure, anything they say now could be corporatespeak for "its done", but they haven't been nearly as clear as I think they were about Dead Space and other franchises.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sun May 28, 2017 3:10 am

My instincts tell me that there's so much riding on Battlefront II that EA sees it necessary to starve competing projects of manpower and resources to ensure its success. Battlefront II and its next two sequels will be the biggest bets EA has made in this 22nd century, coming during a new golden age for Star Wars. Success means EA turning a very large profit.

Meanwhile, if you watch Mike Gamble's twitter account (just google it), you will notice that BioWare is still adding some new material to ME:A in the way of patches (features, weapons, etc) but the rest of what he says seems.... almost depressed? The fact that he has not answered questions about DLC is the single most telling thing I have noticed.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Sun May 28, 2017 3:57 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:My instincts tell me that there's so much riding on Battlefront II that EA sees it necessary to starve competing projects of manpower and resources to ensure its success.  Battlefront II and its next two sequels will be the biggest bets EA has made in this 22nd century, coming during a new golden age for Star Wars.  Success means EA turning a very large profit.

Meanwhile, if you watch Mike Gamble's twitter account (just google it), you will notice that BioWare is still adding some new material to ME:A in the way of patches (features, weapons, etc) but the rest of what he says seems.... almost depressed?  The fact that he has not answered questions about DLC is the single most telling thing I have noticed.

I'm not reading as much into his tweets as you are. And well, Mike Gamble's the least of those we should be reading into.

But I also perfectly see your points, and I don't think you're necessarily wrong.

I just think that 'starved MEA', so far, can just mean something like a 'final' DLC being canned but not a first one or two, or less resources to make DLC as impressive as they could be, but still scheduled to have enough content to coincide with the MP timeline. Maybe he's just sad that a MEA2 won't be on earlier production but instead limbo for now/a year or two. Dunno.

And in MP news, I just did the recent event map, it was the previous event Remnant vault but now expanded somewhat into a 'raid', where the map (biggest ever?) progressively opens up, we have a damage nerf so there's a bit more time spent on each enemy, and we face the enemy waves mostly head on.
I can say its the first of MEA MP that I can say I've enjoyed more than at least most of ME3 MP, whereas until now its been a mix of things that were only just as good or worse - the only maybe 'plus' (YMMV) being jetpacking, something I still regard as a little more gimmick than feature. I'd say I like the more open maps more but I think they over-rely on jumping and I hate that. I want it part of the map but not like this.

And the vault map may have had more to it that hasn't opened up yet, so I wonder if they're holding back an Architect boss fight or something. I consider it possible that the events lead to that, then the Quarian DLC releases and a new wave of MP stuff happens (like Quarian classes, maps, and I won't dare more).

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Mon May 29, 2017 1:38 am

Okay. Been watchin a playthrough lately and there is all sorts of interesting bits. But what is really peculiar to me is the general atmosphere. Right in the beginning. You end up on a planet where the dark energy scourge issue has warped the evolution of life to the point that colossal lifeforms fly and alien rino dogs have biological mass effect barriers without any technological implants.

The dark energy technology has a tendency to release reaperish sounds. Doesn't mean that it indoctrinates you or has anything to do with the Reapers. More so the other way around, which I will get to in a second.

What is most peculiar is the call back to the Dark Energy problem that the original trilogy was goin to be about. The scourge was caused by a weapon, but it just goes to show how the use of the Mass Effect has unforseen consequences. It basically proves that the use of the ME generates Dark Energy as a result. Only noticeable now because such a powerful weapon was created and used. But there is no reason to assume that say even the level of ME use of say a Biotic's abilities couldn't release some small nearly unnoticable amount of DE. This does indeed reflect upon the ME use of say, the Crucible/Catalyst. But more importantly all of this reflects upon the Reapers themselves and how even say just their presence fries rock into molten magma or their voices sound like AIDS bein scraped onto glass.

Sidenote: If we found the Arks just floatin through space. Isn't it massively possible that life from Andromeda came to the Milky Way, and that is where the Crucible came from? I mean then that superweapon that caused the Scourge in Andromeda really would cause the same thing in the Milky Way? Why else make such an eerie parallel to the crucible? Unless it was to imply that the same thing happened in Andromeda?

In that concept drawin for the ending that Rif takes as just a joke. It implies the Crucible is the Reaper's weakness because of their Anatomy. I mean wait a minute... Why? What have we learned bout Reaper anatomy that could even remotely imply an inherent weakness... I can tell you. Exactly what it is. Remember how Rif made the comparison between the Protheans and the Reapers? Well remember the weakness of the Protheans? Despite being made up of many different species, they had the same systems and strategies. They were TOO MUCH THE SAME.

What is the 1 key thing you can remember about Reaper Technology. The 1 thing that stares you in the face the first time you play ME, before you know much about indoctrination or that all Reapertech indoctrinates?

The answer is simple. Reapertech is UNIQUE. It sets itself apart from any other species' technology. It has unique signature. It is all made of the same materials. That is the anatomtical weakness of the Reapers. That if you could tell a giant mass effect cannon to target that specific material. You would hit Reapers and only Reapers and their technology. Just like the weapon in Andromeda.

Andromeda may act like it sidesteps the ME trilogy. But to me it is like if they did everything they did with the indoctrination theory itself. But instead put all that subtlety and indirectness into explaining the fridge horror that is ME3s ending. Just a possibility.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:35 am

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:56 pm

It's just shit. end of.

I mean - look at what we could have gotten.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:11 pm

That was quite an extensive article.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:34 am

What gets me is that if they can pull out this sort of a game in just a year and a half, then if their ducks had been fully in a row for the full five year period they could have easily pulled off a game technically superior to all of the mass effects so far. The capability is there; the leadership is not.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:16 am

What gets me even more is that, reportedly, even with Casey Hudson and all original "visionaries" still on board, they decided to ditch the original storyline and not deliver on the unique opportunities they provided for themselves with ME3.

I really thought the whole change of personnel, including putting Mac Walters (a demoted wannabe comic book author of sorts) at the helm of the project eventually, was the main source of all this shit.

It is incredibly difficult, I imagine, to keep together a strong development team over the course of many years. It's why all franchises get fucked if they last long enough. People take over, people fuck up.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:51 am

dorktainian wrote:It's just shit.  end of.

I mean - look at what we could have gotten.

*insert pic of near real life graphics here*
You probs have the super elite rig to run somethin like that. But most of us don't. So. Turnin  off the first world entitlement would be nice.

I'm not sayin it's not shit. I'm just goin over the analysis. I think Bioware got themselves wrapped up in so much shit that it was near impossible to fix short of making Indoctrination canon. Yet at the same time, they were dumb enough to try. So what they did was, they kept rollin with the punches. They took the same convoluted tactics that IT employs, hopin people would read into Andromeda enough to get whatever it is they meant with the direction they took in the original trilogy.

It's like, they claimed "artistic integrity" as their defense and then took it a step further and made a whole game just to try and justify and explain said artistic integrity. Either way the fact that MEA was ultimately the direction they took, tells us what we needed to know anyways.

Here's "the truth", conspiracy blown out of water: Indoctrination Theory is canon to the extent that they hardwired every facet of the trilogy and ME3 especially, to be that way. But for whatever reason at the last moment. They tried to change it completely. Who knows why, likely due to shifting leadership. But the moron or morons that thought they could change course at the last moment, is the one/ones responsible for killing the entire series.

I don't believe they tried to change the plot to not be indoctrination exactly. But they tried to make it completely subtle. With no reveal at all.

Why? Well I've noticed Drew Karpyshyn is the kind of guy that does things Blunt. He isn't the kind of guy to be all that subtle and when he is, he still makes a point of clarifying everything within the plot. But there was someone new. Someone with a different philosophy that has a huge boner for subtlety. Someone who believes that the more subtle you can make somethin, and more mind gamey, the better.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:16 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:What gets me is that if they can pull out this sort of a game in just a year and a half, then if their ducks had been fully in a row for the full five year period they could have easily pulled off a game technically superior to all of the mass effects so far.  The capability is there; the leadership is not.
You should read some Ken Wilber. He's a philosopher who, while he doesn't really talk about video games in specific, has insights that explain this.

In Ken's terms: The Wholon that is Mass Effect or any popular new video game made with the most advanced and expensive technology, is ultimately being neglected in the internal independent and communal sides of said wholon.

In other words. In order to keep up with the advancements in technology they put more of a focus on the EXTERNAL facets of games. Graphics, game mechanics, etc. Whereas in echange the internal structure, the "soul" of games so to speak, is bein stretched thin and degrading in quality. Games are getting more beautiful and vast in scope and actually that should mean an heightened ability to present complex and well thought stories in an unprecedented way like never before. Imagine the graphics Dork presented. Imagine what you could do with that in terms of presenting your story.

A Wholon is essentially any given object or concept. But it is the recognition of 2 things. First, that everything is both A Part and A Whole simultaneously. A cup for instance is made up of materials, those materials are made up of complex chemistry, that complex chemistry is made up of Atoms. Meanwhile, the Cup itself is not only a Whole of combined Parts. It is also a part of somethin else too. It is a part of all cups in existence. The whole of every cup that exists. It is also but a part of everything in existence too.

The second thing is that every wholon actually has 4 facets or sides to it. The External Independent, the External Communal, the Internal Independent, and the Internal Communal. To explain these 4 facets it will be easier if I use a more complex example, because some of these facets become harder to perceive within something like a Cup for example. So I will just use People as an example. So the External Independent is the physical manifestation of a given individual. Aka the biological body of a person. The Internal Independent would be the Thoughts, Sensations, Feelings, etc of a specific individual. The External Communal would be the collective of all physical human bodies. The Internal Communal would be things like Culture, Politics, Religion, etc. Things like say the collective of all the buildings, structures, and inventions of humans would be the External Communal of human civilization.

When a wholon develops and grows, it is SUPPOSED to grow in all 4 facets. But this is not inherently assured. Any given facet can grow while the others stay at the same level. So that 1 facet will expand but the others will only be stretched along with it, without gaining any new substance. So the challenge is ever present that when you grow 1 facet of a wholon, you must take care to develop the other facets.

This isn't just an issue in the video game industry. Every facet of human civilization has been gearing towards the External, increasingly forgetting and neglecting the Internal. The biggest way this can be seen is with the shift towards machinery, materialistic science has risen while spirituality and religion among many other things has died. Idealism has died. It no longer has the force it used to.

The suffering of video games is but just 1 consequence of this pattern. You think the corporate overlords care how awe inspiring and genius the ME trilogy was slated to be? Cause I hate to break it to you Carnifex

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:35 am

TerramineLightvoid wrote:
dorktainian wrote:It's just shit.  end of.

I mean - look at what we could have gotten.

*insert pic of near real life graphics here*
You probs have the super elite rig to run somethin like that. But most of us don't. So. Turnin  off the first world entitlement would be nice.

I'm not sayin it's not shit. I'm just goin over the analysis. I think Bioware got themselves wrapped up in so much shit that it was near impossible to fix short of making Indoctrination canon. Yet at the same time, they were dumb enough to try. So what they did was, they kept rollin with the punches. They took the same convoluted tactics that IT employs, hopin people would read into Andromeda enough to get whatever it is they meant with the direction they took in the original trilogy.

It's like, they claimed "artistic integrity" as their defense and then took it a step further and made a whole game just to try and justify and explain said artistic integrity. Either way the fact that MEA was ultimately the direction they took, tells us what we needed to know anyways.

Here's "the truth", conspiracy blown out of water: Indoctrination Theory is canon to the extent that they hardwired every facet of the trilogy and ME3 especially, to be that way. But for whatever reason at the last moment. They tried to change it completely. Who knows why, likely due to shifting leadership. But the moron or morons that thought they could change course at the last moment, is the one/ones responsible for killing the entire series.

I don't believe they tried to change the plot to not be indoctrination exactly. But they tried to make it completely subtle. With no reveal at all.

Why? Well I've noticed Drew Karpyshyn is the kind of guy that does things Blunt. He isn't the kind of guy to be all that subtle and when he is, he still makes a point of clarifying everything within the plot. But there was someone new. Someone with a different philosophy that has a huge boner for subtlety. Someone who believes that the more subtle you can make somethin, and more mind gamey, the better.

They fucked up in a monumental way. They began development of the game without any clear direction. When those at the top realised that they were in the shit they jumped the shark quick. Those who were left had to try to hold together what was a clusterfuck until they could release the game in whatever state it happened to be at the time...ie Broken Garbage.

I'd defend them if the game made any sense whatsoever but it does not. It ignores basic lore and looks like it was programmed by a bunch of schoolkids after a fortnight on the lash.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:02 am

19. The 50,000 Year Cycle Theory hypothesizes that there is a 50,000 year reoccurring cycle across the Mass Effect universe. Created by Redditor PeterGot, it argues that the events in the Milky Way galaxy run a specific predetermined cycle. It is known by fans that the Reapers attack every 50,000 years, but this theory states that each cycle has the same characters and events that lead up to the Reaper attack. This means that there has always been a Commander Shepard character who attempted to save the world. Some fans believe that Javik was the Prothean’s version of Shepard.

But what makes Shepard’s cycle different and enables Shepard to finally defeat the Reapers? The 50,000 Year Cycle Theory claims this is due to the Protheans being able to miraculously delay the previous cycle, which in turn gave Shepard’s cycle more time before the Reaper attack. Shepard dies at the end of Mass Effect 2. This is arguably what happened to every Shepard incarnation before, but this time, due to the delay, there was enough time for Shepard to be brought back to life, which created an entirely new series of events unseen in any previous cycle.







Actually I can see this being legit. Also you could still factor into the ending IT.

Making the cycle a neverending cycle which would explain a lot. As an aside this could mean Javik was actually meant to rule after the reapers were defeated, but was woken too early by mistake (actually he states this doesn't he?).

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:10 pm

TerramineLightvoid wrote:Wholon

Insert obligatory Dr. Seuss joke here.

Honestly, I don't think they've lost the soul of the series. I do think they got distracted by the shiny new toys that EA pushed on them.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:30 pm

King of the Hanar!, Javik


Actually, Bioware recently put out a joke/hint of 'Drell: The Hanar Conspiracy'.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:53 am

crash23 wrote:King of the Hanar!, Javik


Actually, Bioware recently put out a joke/hint of 'Drell: The Hanar Conspiracy'.

I feel this needs further context.  https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/6iv9tk/spoilers_all_hint_dropped_drell_the_hanar/

Once again, this comes from the multiplayer stuff. The multiplayer stuff could easily have been set up in advance to match a DLC release schedule that will never be met.

Or hey, maybe the DLC was finished before the studio got bled dry.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:46 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:
crash23 wrote:King of the Hanar!, Javik


Actually, Bioware recently put out a joke/hint of 'Drell: The Hanar Conspiracy'.

I feel this needs further context.  https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/6iv9tk/spoilers_all_hint_dropped_drell_the_hanar/

Once again, this comes from the multiplayer stuff.  The multiplayer stuff could easily have been set up in advance to match a DLC release schedule that will never be met.

Or hey, maybe the DLC was finished before the studio got bled dry.

I think it would be the stupidest thing Bioware has ever done, to include SP DLC tease without doing SP DLC.

Its not hard at all to do slight edits to remove it (in video and text).

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:07 pm

crash23 wrote:

I think it would be the stupidest thing Bioware has ever done, to include SP DLC tease without doing SP DLC.

Its not hard at all to do slight edits to remove it (in video and text).

And yet...

http://kotaku.com/sources-mass-effect-andromeda-will-not-get-single-pla-1796548159
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:19 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:
crash23 wrote:

I think it would be the stupidest thing Bioware has ever done, to include SP DLC tease without doing SP DLC.

Its not hard at all to do slight edits to remove it (in video and text).

And yet...

http://kotaku.com/sources-mass-effect-andromeda-will-not-get-single-pla-1796548159

We're taking dreams Kotaku into evidence now?

Already a set of rumors were squashed yesterday. Rumors that very well might have been Kotaku's 'source'.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:15 pm


Most of those theories are random "what if" scenarios, and have very little to support them, and some of those theories use elements that are more cleverly covered in IT.

I've read quite a few theories (more or less compatible with IT) on these boards that were much better though out and interesting.

Ah well.

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DoomsdayDevice
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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