(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Page 22 of 23 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 21, 22, 23  Next

Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm

TerramineLightvoid wrote:
dorktainian wrote:[Shepard to a shocked commitee of Alliance leaders asking what to do] The only thing we can do. We fight or we die!

Anything else is giving up control of your own destiny.  Submission and defeat.
Eh, technically nothing ideological will ever be that black or white.

It really is. You start the game with the Reapers decimating everything and everyone. If someone gives you the choice in that commitee chamber of becoming a reaper there and then would you take it? or would you fight to prevent the decimation of your species?

The End Choice is literally after your senses have been bombarded to the point of having a meltdown. It's a Reaper trick and anyone who falls for it by allowing themselves to become a reaper is indoctrinated.

_________________
avatar
dorktainian
Sovereign

Posts : 3526
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 50

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by magnetite on Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:29 pm

Also the game doesn't tell you at that particular point that the game is trying to indoctrinate you.

Much like Saren wasn't told directly by Sovereign it was trying to indoctrinate him.

The literalists want to have the game explicitly tell them they are being tricked, but that would ruin the trick.

Imagine if at the last minute, the so-called Catalyst morphed into Harbinger and yelled ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL when you first grab the power conduit.

Or when you jump off the platform and first touch the Reaper beam, Harbinger yells WE WILL BRING YOUR SPECIES INTO HARMONY WITH OUR OWN! 

That would totally ruin it for me. So glad it didn't happen that way. The subtle smirk/grin of the kid is proof enough, but anyone who points that out is labeled as crazy for thinking outside the box.
avatar
magnetite
Brute

Posts : 732
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 35
Location : Calgary, AB, Canada

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:48 pm

magnetite wrote:Also the game doesn't tell you at that particular point that the game is trying to indoctrinate you.

Much like Saren wasn't told directly by Sovereign it was trying to indoctrinate him.

The literalists want to have the game explicitly tell them they are being tricked, but that would ruin the trick.

Imagine if at the last minute, the so-called Catalyst morphed into Harbinger and yelled ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL when you first grab the power conduit.

Or when you jump off the platform and first touch the Reaper beam, Harbinger yells WE WILL BRING YOUR SPECIES INTO HARMONY WITH OUR OWN! 

That would totally ruin it for me. So glad it didn't happen that way. The subtle smirk/grin of the kid is proof enough, but anyone who points that out is labeled as crazy for thinking outside the box.

I remember calling it to my lad when playing through for the first time.

I've yet to see a valid reason from anybody as to why you would not destroy the reapers when you have the chance. There are no reasons after everything that has been witnessed over the course of the three games. Just because the reapers do not see themselves as being at war does not mean we are not at war.

_________________
avatar
dorktainian
Sovereign

Posts : 3526
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 50

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by magnetite on Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:52 pm

They want to convince you that they are not in it for war, so that you won't destroy them. It's a manipulation tactic.
avatar
magnetite
Brute

Posts : 732
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 35
Location : Calgary, AB, Canada

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:05 pm

I do actually think ME as a franchise is done.

They fucked it up big time with ME:A

They said they put it on ice.

Images come to mind of that wooden crate with the Ark of the Covenant lost somewhere in some storage room at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

_________________
"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson
avatar
DoomsdayDevice
Being of Light

Posts : 2964
Join date : 2013-01-08
Location : Probing Uranus

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Valsamon on Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:34 pm

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/08/03/bioware-dragon-age-and-mass-effect/




This is NEVER going to happen, but...

EA presentation, E3 202#
Round-up montage of games that have been shown is playing on Main screen, suddenly flashes / cuts to white (ME3 Dream transition screen)
Fade into eery forest / dreamscape.  1st person perspective?  row of oily shadow figures in middle distance, out of focus.
All turn slowly to look at camera.
One walks towards camera, reaches out when close.
whispers "Shepard"

Slam cut to Breath scene in rubble



avatar
Valsamon
Pod Crab

Posts : 37
Join date : 2013-01-15
Age : 37
Location : South Carolina, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:17 pm

dorktainian wrote:It really is. You start the game with the Reapers decimating everything and everyone.  If someone gives you the choice in that commitee chamber of becoming a reaper there and then would you take it?  or would you fight to prevent the  decimation of your species?

The End Choice is literally after your senses have been bombarded to the point of having a meltdown.  It's a Reaper trick and anyone who falls for it by allowing themselves to become a reaper is indoctrinated.  
Again, a person can very easily say they would choose the former, for completely rational and philosophical reasons. Not just because they are brainwashed into being a hippie. What I'm saying is more akin to if you were told right in the comittee chamber that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate you and coax you into giving up. And that you can resist this and destroy them anyways. I'm saying, even in such an absolutely face value presentation. You could very easily side with the Reapers as a "Necessary Evil".

You're talking about saving the world. It has nothing to do with "species", as we are conscious entities. We're not animals just trying to survive. We have to determine whether we have the righteous position to even save ourselves to begin with. Yes the Reapers themselves are by and large pure evil. But the game also does make it clear to show you the corruption and selfishness of ourselves. It's so hilarious how you can look at the reapers and say that their evil, isn't present in ourselves as it is. The Reapers show up, and every other species wants to turn their back and sacrifice other people for their own selfish survival.

The Punisher from Marvel Comics is also technically evil. But he's an evil, that punishes evil. Though it's not the Reaper's intention, what they ultimately accomplish includes clensing the galaxy of all evil present and living within it. Like I said, in real life I already have a hard time having sympathy or empathy for the vast majority of people because I know how mindless and retardingly hypocritical they are. You can't feel sorry for a mindless tool that shits all over morality unto theirself. Which is a huge percentage of the population. Hence why people can fathom a God deciding to flood an entire planet because it's so corrupt, or even purging the entire planet a second time in a fire-based armageddon. Christianity ring a bell? Yeah, that.

That's actually what the Reapers symbolize. It's well known that the story of the trilogy is symbolically based upon the bible's story and prophecies. With Shepard basically being Jesus, and the Reapers being the "5 horsemen", 1 of which is literally the basis for the concept of the Grim Reaper. Because he comes with a sickle to behead the wicked. That's where the Grim Reaper comes from, and then the Reapers are named after the Grim Reaper.

Biblically speaking, the Player is being given a choice. To either doom or save the entire galaxy. Just as Jesus comes in the Second Coming to judge everybody and determine who lives or dies, Shepard does exactly that throughout the trilogy and makes the penultimate decision after the fact. The Ark plotline to Andromeda is actually mapped to the part of Revelations where people are "Raptured" into heaven/safety from the apocalypse.

TL;DR: I'm Chaotic Good in moral alignment. I just want to watch this sick and evil world burn in hell.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:33 pm

dorktainian wrote:I remember calling it to my lad when playing through for the first time.  

I've yet to see a valid reason from anybody as to why you would not destroy the reapers when you have the chance.  There are no reasons after everything that has been witnessed over the course of the three games.  Just because the reapers do not see themselves as being at war does not mean we are not at war.
I literally just said why. You're assuming we are any better than them. Shepard might be, but that vast majority of the galaxy proves themselves to be what they are.

I wouldn't choose synthesis under the belief that I can make peace with the Reapers. I would do it seeing it for what it is: Suicide. Shepard jumps in and gets erradicated by pure energy, being the only person morally good enough to terminate his own life in order to bring an end to the Galaxy's corruption. Then the rest of the Galaxy is Mass Indoctrinated by Shepard's neural network being mapped onto their own brains, instantly indoctrinating them to walk right into the Reaper's slaughter because they're all too corrupt to live.

*Puts on sunglasses.*
Deal with it.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:45 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I do actually think ME as a franchise is done.

They fucked it up big time with ME:A

They said they put it on ice.

Images come to mind of that wooden crate with the Ark of the Covenant lost somewhere in some storage room at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I know this already, I was just laying down the specifics to show that if they were going to continue it. It would most likely go back to the Milky Way. Especially when that's basically what the PR was when they first revealed Andromeda and were aswering questions about it. They know they led us in that direction and that we're still asking the same question if they dare to move forward from here.

Otherwise, yeah. It's easier for them to just leave it's rotten corpse on the floor and walk away.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:58 am

TerramineLightvoid wrote:
dorktainian wrote:I remember calling it to my lad when playing through for the first time.  

I've yet to see a valid reason from anybody as to why you would not destroy the reapers when you have the chance.  There are no reasons after everything that has been witnessed over the course of the three games.  Just because the reapers do not see themselves as being at war does not mean we are not at war.
I literally just said why. You're assuming we are any better than them. Shepard might be, but that vast majority of the galaxy proves themselves to be what they are.

I wouldn't choose synthesis under the belief that I can make peace with the Reapers. I would do it seeing it for what it is: Suicide. Shepard jumps in and gets erradicated by pure energy, being the only person morally good enough to terminate his own life in order to bring an end to the Galaxy's corruption. Then the rest of the Galaxy is Mass Indoctrinated by Shepard's neural network being mapped onto their own brains, instantly indoctrinating them to walk right into the Reaper's slaughter because they're all too corrupt to live.

*Puts on sunglasses.*
Deal with it.

Maybe the Reapers were created by Leviathan to help organic life evolve to a state where we can see past Indoctrination or Enthrallment? (remember the game lies to you) A test created to weed out organic species until they reach a point where they can understand their way past indoctrination or enthrallment and co-exist with Leviathan? Get past a test created by a far superior organism but whose test backfired on its own creators, who then went into hiding and left organic life to fend for itself?

I also wonder if with the Reapers and Leviathan being so powerful, they were able to bend time so that the cycle repeated itself within a certain time frame, like a time bubble if you will, therefore Shepard always existed in the decision chamber (an almost infinite number of shepards have made the decision and therefore created the multitude of reapers) and the reapers were ultimately a result of the bad choices he made until he could finally choose to destroy the reapers and as such allow the galaxy to evolve past a certain point.




_________________
avatar
dorktainian
Sovereign

Posts : 3526
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 50

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by justin007 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:12 am

And so I had the sudden urge to play the ME trilogy again.

In ME1, when you have the Salarians on board after Virmire, and you speak to Captain Rentola (in the event that Kirrahe died), you can get him to say "There comes a day so many will have to be sacrificied, it will be impossible to tell who won."

Probably not intentional foreshadowing, but ironic nonetheless, what with the endless argument about the final choices.

justin007
Drone

Posts : 2
Join date : 2018-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:01 pm

justin007 wrote:And so I had the sudden urge to play the ME trilogy again.

In ME1, when you have the Salarians on board after Virmire, and you speak to Captain Rentola (in the event that Kirrahe died), you can get him to say "There comes a day so many will have to be sacrificied, it will be impossible to tell who won."

Probably not intentional foreshadowing, but ironic nonetheless, what with the endless argument about the final choices.

Very nice observation!

They claim that they didn't have the ending planned out since 1, but I find it hard to believe so much was coincidental. Like the Klencory beings of light.  I think they just didn't want to say they did plan it and get even more heat for having planned this "terrible" ending so far in advance.

_________________
Remember folks.  We didn't get A, B, C endings.  We got A, A, A endings.
avatar
Rifneno
Honey Badger

Posts : 2640
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 37
Location : Razgriz Straits

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by magnetite on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:56 am

That's war. Some are sacrificed so that others (Reapers) can live.

Modified quote from The X-Files with the added Reapers in parentheses.
avatar
magnetite
Brute

Posts : 732
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 35
Location : Calgary, AB, Canada

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:38 pm

Rifneno wrote:
justin007 wrote:And so I had the sudden urge to play the ME trilogy again.

In ME1, when you have the Salarians on board after Virmire, and you speak to Captain Rentola (in the event that Kirrahe died), you can get him to say "There comes a day so many will have to be sacrificied, it will be impossible to tell who won."

Probably not intentional foreshadowing, but ironic nonetheless, what with the endless argument about the final choices.

Very nice observation!

They claim that they didn't have the ending planned out since 1, but I find it hard to believe so much was coincidental. Like the Klencory beings of light.  I think they just didn't want to say they did plan it and get even more heat for having planned this "terrible" ending so far in advance.

Yup, noticed the same thing on my last playthrough of ME1, some three months ago. Was the first time Kirrahe died on me, I just went with it because it was different. Don't need the same or "perfect" playthrough every time.

_________________
"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson
avatar
DoomsdayDevice
Being of Light

Posts : 2964
Join date : 2013-01-08
Location : Probing Uranus

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:06 pm

magnetite wrote:That's war. Some are sacrificed so that others (Reapers) can live.

Modified quote from The X-Files with the added Reapers in parentheses.

B5 is a decent source for quotes, and I believe heavily influenced the ME trilogy.


G'Quan. "What is there left for Narn if all of creation falls around us? There's nothing. No hope, no dream, no future, no life. Unless we turn from the cycle of death toward something greater. If we are a dying people, then let us die with honor, by helping the others as no one else can."

G'Kar "I don't understand."

G'Quan "Because you have let them distract you. Blind you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another, we must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because, if we fail in this, then none of us will be saved. And the Narn will be only a memory."

Sebastian to Sheridan. "How far are you prepared to go? How much are you prepared to risk? How many people are you prepared to sacrifice for victory? Are you willing to die friendless, alone, deserted by everyone? Because that's what may be required of you in the war that is to come. What about the people you work with, the people you call friends? Are you willing to sacrifice them? What about your family, what about your God, what about truth, what about blood, what about right, what about wrong, what about your future, what about faith, what about sin, what about hell, what about death, what about life?"

edit : 1st October 2018
Just playing through Ilos and had the Subwoofer turned up. Why is there the sound of a human heartbeat on Ilos?




_________________
avatar
dorktainian
Sovereign

Posts : 3526
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 50

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:24 pm

Why does the Illusive Man insist Shepard is brought back exactly as he was when he defeated Sovereign? Always struck me as being a bit weird. Resurrecting Shepard as he was at that moment in time? Why did it matter? Why not just bring Shepard back without that stipulation?

_________________
avatar
dorktainian
Sovereign

Posts : 3526
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 50

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:07 am

dorktainian wrote:Why does the Illusive Man insist Shepard is brought back exactly as he was when he defeated Sovereign?  Always struck me as being a bit weird.  Resurrecting Shepard as he was at that moment in time?  Why did it matter?  Why not just bring Shepard back without that stipulation?
My guess is, Harbinger was influencing him there. Harbinger became obsessed with Shepard knowing that he single handedly defeated a Reaper. Something no 1 organic has ever achieved before. Think about it this way: The day an Ant kills a human, is the day you'll stop holding your head in the air acting as if Ants don't exist or are "insignificant dust in unfathomable cosmic winds".

Remember, the Reapers believe they are unbeatable. For Shepard to flagrantly slam that down the drain, and even upset their whole masterplan to a significant degree. Makes Harbinger feel /threatened/. He can't just kill Shepard, because he's been around long enough to know that these things become a pattern across long enough time. Meaning there will eventually be another Shepard again. Instead he needs to understand it fully and needs to Conquer it in the most genuine way possible: Make Shepard submit, and then sacrifice his/her own self and greatness for the Reaper's cause.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:24 am

dorktainian wrote:Maybe the Reapers were created by Leviathan to help organic life evolve to a state where we can see past Indoctrination or Enthrallment? (remember the game lies to you) A test created to weed out organic species until they reach a point where they can understand their way past indoctrination or enthrallment and co-exist with Leviathan?  Get past a test created by a far superior organism but whose test backfired on its own creators, who then went into hiding and left organic life to fend for itself?
It doesn't make much sense, because Leviathan could simply choose to not control other organics.

On a side note, anyone else find it interesting that Leviathan is named after the mythologyical creature that the God, Yahweh of the Bible, had conquered and killed? Also the 7 headed Beast in the Book of Revelations? It's just weird to me because that's exactly what the Reapers did, they Conquered the Leviathans and took the throne of Galactic Deity. But yet, the Reapers are the ones who are more like Devils?

I still think the Leviathan was completely fake. Bioware made the point to put a Reaper corpse down there, and Leviathan is basically just an Organic version of a Reaper. There's a near 1 for 1 chance, that Shepard is being indoctrinated by the "dead" Reaper. We literally had it shoved in our faces by one of the most significant plot points in the series, that the Reapers keep indoctrinating even when "dead". They are immortal, they can't be killed, you can only disable their ability to /move/. Essentially you can cripple them. But more-over, what is that corpse doing there in the first place? We know that there is very few Reaper corpses at all from before Sheps' cycle, and we know it takes some serious firepower and strategy to succeed. But here one is, just casually lying at the bottom of the ocean.

Why? I know the implication is that the Leviathan did it, but that unto itself doesn't make sense anyways. Why did this Reaper see the need to inspect this planet, why is it the only 1? Etc. Who's to say that, that Reaper is even dead/imobilized? Maybe it's "playing dead", deliberately laying at the bottom of the ocean so Shepard could be caught alone with a Reaper in completely vulnerable circumstances. So that as the most central political pawn hands down, Shep can convince everyone else to bring in Reaper troops/artifacts to fight "right beside us".

I also wonder if with the Reapers and Leviathan being so powerful, they were able to bend time so that the cycle repeated itself within a certain time frame, like a time bubble if you will, therefore Shepard always existed in the decision chamber (an almost infinite number of shepards have made the decision and therefore created the multitude of reapers) and the reapers were ultimately a result of the bad choices he made until he could finally choose to destroy the reapers and as such allow the galaxy to evolve past a certain point.
I just don't get why some users think Time Travel is involved here. I would definitely suspect the Reapers have much more advanced tech than we realize, hence why we can't comprehend half of jack shit about how they work, etc. But Time Travel? I just don't see it.


Last edited by TerramineLightvoid on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:31 am; edited 3 times in total

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:26 am

magnetite wrote:They want to convince you that they are not in it for war, so that you won't destroy them. It's a manipulation tactic.
Meh, I think it's nothing more than classic Arrogance. It's simply them saying "You are Absolutely Nothing to us, absolutely ineffectual."

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:22 am

TerramineLightvoid wrote:My guess is, Harbinger was influencing him there. Harbinger became obsessed with Shepard knowing that he single handedly defeated a Reaper. Something no 1 organic has ever achieved before. Think about it this way: The day an Ant kills a human, is the day you'll stop holding your head in the air acting as if Ants don't exist or are "insignificant dust in unfathomable cosmic winds".

Ants are fucking bastards though.  There's definitely some species that can kill humans even without allergic reaction.  A few others are just mindblowingly painful like the famed bullet ant.  I don't think this analogy has any real world counterpart because just about everything has killed humans at some point, no matter how innocuous it may seem.  I recall a few years ago, an American woman on vacation in... Brazil, I think it was, was envenomed by a venomous caterpillar (show of hands, who here knew that was even a thing that exists?) with a powerful anticoagulant.  She came back to the US for medical treatment and spent days in the hospital before succumbing to the venom.  Our medical care leaves a lot to be desired in finances and such, but our technology is among the best in the world.  And our best couldn't save an otherwise healthy adult from a goddamn caterpillar.  We could go even smaller, but things just get worse there.  The variola virus is likely responsible for more human deaths than anything in history.  It's killed more people than war.  It's killed more of us than we've killed each other.  In this respect, size or intelligence truly doesn't matter.

So yeah, my point in all this is, the analogy doesn't really line up with any real world scenario.  At least when you use humans in the Reapers' spot.  I suppose you could use some of our more advanced machinery, especially military.

Either way, it's not like Shepard beat Sovereign on his own.  A hilarious string of unpredictable failures is what killed Sovereign.  The Protheans sabotaging the keepers, Vigil giving Shepard the data file to unlock the relays, ect.  If even one thing in the string of coincidences didn't happen, Sovereign would've succeeded.  He died in combat with Shepard because he chose that death.  He could have released control in time easily, but it wouldn't have saved him.  Saren was the only thing he could control in the Citadel, so with Saren's death meant any hope of opening the relay was gone.  He couldn't retreat either, because he was pinned down the Citadel defense fleet.  The only reason he's able to withstand their shots is because he has his mass far too high to move.  He'd be shredded if he tried to make a break for it.  He could beat them in a prolonged battle, but because Shepard opened the relays and alerted the galaxy, everyone was coming.  Christ-knows-how-many dreadnoughts were hauling ass to the Citadel.  He was fucked as soon as the dreadnoughts arrived.  The galaxy has nearly 100 and it only takes 3-4 to kill a Reaper.  The only choice he had was in his choice of death.  Die from a corrupted feedback loop via Shepard, he could make a break for it and be shredded by the Citadel defense force, or he could wait for the dreadnoughts and be bombarded to smithereens.  Forget about winning; simply surviving was just not an option.  So for whatever reason, he chose Shepard.  I like to think it's because while Shepard definitely needed all those coincidences to win, he also showed incredible skill to make advantage of them.  But the whole thing about Reapers is that we can't understand their logic and thought processes, so who knows.

Fuck I missed these kinds of talks.

Remember, the Reapers believe they are unbeatable. For Shepard to flagrantly slam that down the drain, and even upset their whole masterplan to a significant degree. Makes Harbinger feel /threatened/. He can't just kill Shepard, because he's been around long enough to know that these things become a pattern across long enough time. Meaning there will eventually be another Shepard again. Instead he needs to understand it fully and needs to Conquer it in the most genuine way possible: Make Shepard submit, and then sacrifice his/her own self and greatness for the Reaper's cause.

I don't think that's why.  Remember the control ending in Extended Wrist Cut?  "There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy."  Idiots think it's Shepard talking about harnessing the Reapers' power, but it's the other way around.  I don't think Harbinger was afraid of any pattern.  The Reapers have been going for at the very least a billion years.  Whatever pattern there may be, it wouldn't be new.  Either it's not a pattern, or there have been Shepards before.  The latter is far more likely, given the cut dialogue from the crippled Reaper in 2 saying, "We were all Shepards once."  It's unusual for one to actually destroy a Reaper, but I imagine every cycle has at least one "special" warrior.  Part of the pattern is that they try to take that warrior into their fold.

TerramineLightvoid wrote:On a side note, anyone else find it interesting that Leviathan is named after the mythologyical creature that the God, Yahweh of the Bible, had conquered and killed? Also the 7 headed Beast in the Book of Revelations? It's just weird to me because that's exactly what the Reapers did, they Conquered the Leviathans and took the throne of Galactic Deity. But yet, the Reapers are the ones who are more like Devils?

I don't think so TBH.  Everyone is far too quick to make religious analogies out of games.  Either they're unintended, or they're written by Zack Snyder.  And I think we've all seen the mangled car wrecks on that road.

I still think the Leviathan was completely fake. Bioware made the point to put a Reaper corpse down there, and Leviathan is basically just an Organic version of a Reaper. There's a near 1 for 1 chance, that Shepard is being indoctrinated by the "dead" Reaper. We literally had it shoved in our faces by one of the most significant plot points in the series, that the Reapers keep indoctrinating even when "dead". They are immortal, they can't be killed, you can only disable their ability to /move/. Essentially you can cripple them. But more-over, what is that corpse doing there in the first place? We know that there is very few Reaper corpses at all from before Sheps' cycle, and we know it takes some serious firepower and strategy to succeed. But here one is, just casually lying at the bottom of the ocean.

1. Err...?  What Reaper corpse are you talking about?  The Leviathan of Dis?  The batarians had that.  That one who does a cannonball at the end of the DLC?  How would Shepard get indoctrinated by that?  It barely even passed by him.

2. Absolutely agreed on leviathans being bullshit.  I don't understand how so many people accept their nonsense.  There's stuff through the entire DLC that hints about it.  Why are they testing pain tolerance on turians?  They're literally torturing people for unexplained reasons.  Shepard goes down there alone.  This is hugely significant.  The only other time Shepard goes it alone is during Arrival.  And what happens in Arrival?  Who's to say what was even down there?  If you brought James, would he have said there's just a regular old mechanical Reaper and Shepard is hallucinating?  Who the fuck knows?  They back up the Reapers' nonsense "yo dawg" story which makes no sense, that alone should set off alarm bells.  And let's not forget the initial leak of the DLC had "Leviathan" being an actual Reaper that had turned traitor.  That's a MASSIVE shift in storytelling.  But it's not so big a shift if all they changed was the lies the Reapers were peddling.

3. I stand by the notion that truly dead Reapers can't indoctrinate.  Indoctrination is an active process.  If the Reapers' mind is gone, it can't be done.  The problem in 2 was Cerberus' foolishness in assuming the crippled one was dead.  It wasn't.  Sovereign, however, was.  The entire goddamn Reaper capital ship was scattered over the Citadel.  Despite millions of people being exposed to it and even some things being REVERSE ENGINEERED from Sovereign's remains, we don't have one single solitary known case of indoctrination from Sovereign's wreckage.  You think if Sovereign was still capable of indoctrinating that he'd let his tech be reverse engineered?  Not a snowball's chance in Hell.  Reverse engineering is the entire reason the batarians stole the Leviathan of Dis, and after 20 years they had NOTHING to show for it.  Because it was still capable of indoctrinating people trying to reverse engineer it.

Maybe it's "playing dead", deliberately laying at the bottom of the ocean so Shepard could be caught alone with a Reaper in completely vulnerable circumstances.

I've always said the one doing the cannonball at the end is just playing possum.  Like everything else about the Leviathan's story, it makes no fucking sense.  They can casually kill Reapers with an EMP-like attack but they're in hiding?  Seems legit.

I just don't get why some users think Time Travel is involved here. I would definitely suspect the Reapers have much more advanced tech than we realize, hence why we can't comprehend half of jack shit about how they work, etc. But Time Travel? I just don't see it.

Time travel is LOL.  At least in the original story.  With Androme-duh, we're full pants-on-head retard and anything goes.  But in the original story, ME was semi-hard sci fi.  Not full of space magic.  And the only way time travel could even theoretically work is by passing FTL so you could, again theoretically, travel along the 4th dimension (as opposed to the usual 3 we have access to).  Everything in ME is already massively FTL and there's no time travel.  So the only theory on how it might be possible, it clearly is not possible in ME's universe.

I agree 100% on the Reapers having much more advanced technology than we know.  I think they're holding back a lot.  It just makes strategic sense.  We can't plan for what they can do if we don't really know what they can do.  So if they CAN hold back with some of their toys (and they clearly can), then it just makes sense to do so.  We'll (or any other organic resistance) set up some major trap or strategy that could win us the war and then at the critical moment we find out they can do something that completely nullifies our efforts and we're fucked.

For example... remember how "Leviathan" kept using those waves that took out the shuttle?  Remember what happened when the Normandy fought the Collector Cruiser?  A wave very much like the Leviathan's went out from it and--

Joker: Mass effect field generators offline!  EDI, give me something!
EDI: Generators unresponsive.  All hands, brace for impact.

I want to stress, we never found out what the cause of the failure was.  I'm 99% certain the Collectors used the same technology that we saw Leviathans using.  But that's the only time we've seen or even heard of the Reapers doing it.  It's one of the things they hold back until they really need it.

_________________
Remember folks.  We didn't get A, B, C endings.  We got A, A, A endings.
avatar
Rifneno
Honey Badger

Posts : 2640
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 37
Location : Razgriz Straits

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:22 am

TerramineLightvoid wrote:
I just don't get why some users think Time Travel is involved here. I would definitely suspect the Reapers have much more advanced tech than we realize, hence why we can't comprehend half of jack shit about how they work, etc. But Time Travel? I just don't see it.

Not time travel as you would think. Think Groundhog day in space. Everything resets when the cycle ends so the reapers are no nore technologically advanced.

Remember they are 'Harvesting' us.


Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. Remember what the AI on the Asari homeworld said? About the cycle 'repeating itself'?

I can almost picture Bill Murray waking up after dragging his ass up to see star jar, choosing, and then waking up next morning as if nothing has happened.



_________________
avatar
dorktainian
Sovereign

Posts : 3526
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 50

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:02 am

dorktainian wrote:
TerramineLightvoid wrote:
I just don't get why some users think Time Travel is involved here. I would definitely suspect the Reapers have much more advanced tech than we realize, hence why we can't comprehend half of jack shit about how they work, etc. But Time Travel? I just don't see it.

Not time travel as you would think.  Think Groundhog day in space.  Everything resets when the cycle ends so the reapers are no nore technologically advanced.

Remember they are 'Harvesting' us.  


Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. Remember what the AI on the Asari homeworld said?  About the cycle 'repeating itself'?

I can almost picture Bill Murray waking up after dragging his ass up to see star jar, choosing, and then waking up next morning as if nothing has happened.



Again, are we talking about the original series or the abomination that EA made from its corpse?  Because whatever goes for Androme-duh level tripe.  Knock yourself out.  But I'm gonna bitch if we try to argue this for the games that were grounded in at least theoretical science.  Backward time travel is at least theoretically possible, it's just not practically possible.  Time is a dimension, like left/right, forward/backward, and up/down.  It could theoretically be moved upon but it's generally believed that the method for doing so is impossible to actually create.  As I said before, going faster than light.  The problem is that light is going at the speed limit of existence.  The faster you try to go, the more energy that's required to accelerate.  When you reach light speed, the required energy becomes infinite.  No amount will ever be enough to accelerate past light speed.

But I digress.  My point is, while backwards time travel is at least a thing of theoretical physics, temporal loops are purely fantasy.  That's just not how anything works.  It's Superman levels of unrealistic.  The only thing close to a time loop that's "realistic" is a casual loop, also called a bootstrap paradox.  This is when something involving time travel is its own original source.  Say you find million year old cave paintings, then you go back a million years and paint what you remembering seeing.  That's as close to a "loop" as it gets.

But honestly, I still don't get what you're proposing here.  The classic temporal loop we see in Groundhog Day, all of spacetime reverts to the state it began in at the end of the loop.  But that's not what we're seeing in Mass Effect.  We have the mass relays, we have old Reaper corpses, signs of ancient civilizations the Reapers have wiped out...  spacetime is chugging right along.  When Bill Murray steals that bag of money because he knows how everyone will move, it's not still stolen the next day.  It went right back to the truck it started on.

_________________
Remember folks.  We didn't get A, B, C endings.  We got A, A, A endings.
avatar
Rifneno
Honey Badger

Posts : 2640
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 37
Location : Razgriz Straits

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:04 pm

nah ignore me. It's been that long since the ending I'm half trying to justify their cack handedness.

Question. On the Kardashev scale, are the reapers a Type III Civilization that looked down on Leviathan? Leviathan seen almost as abhorrent by the reapers from a evolution point of view? Replace Human with Leviathan in the text below.

"Type III, where a species then becomes galactic traversers with knowledge of everything having to do with energy, resulting in them becoming a master race. In terms of humans, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution – both biological and mechanical – may result in the inhabitants of this type III civilization being incredibly different from the human race as we know it. These may be cyborgs (or cybernetic organism, beings both biological and robotic), with the descendants of regular humans being a sub-species among the now-highly advanced society. These wholly biological humans would likely be seen as being disabled, inferior, or unevolved by their cybernetic counterparts.

At this stage, we would have developed colonies of robots that are capable of ‘self replication’; their population may increase into the millions as they spread out across the galaxy, colonizing star after star. And these being might build Dyson Spheres to encapsulate each one, creating a huge network that would carry energy back to the home planet. But stretching over the galaxy in such a manner would face several problems; namely, the species would be constrained by the laws of physics. Particularly, light-speed travel. That is, unless they develop a working warp drive, or use that immaculate energy cache to master wormhole teleportation (two things that remain theoretical for the time being), they can only get so far." Michio Kaku.

_________________
avatar
dorktainian
Sovereign

Posts : 3526
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 50

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:17 am

[quote="Rifneno"]
TerramineLightvoid wrote:Ants are fucking bastards though.  There's definitely some species that can kill humans even without allergic reaction.  A few others are just mindblowingly painful like the famed bullet ant.  I don't think this analogy has any real world counterpart because just about everything has killed humans at some point, no matter how innocuous it may seem. 
Yeah but as far as dangerous ants go, they aren't present in first world Murica right? I'm sure if you live in a country where those species are present, you're not going to be walking around acting like you aren't concerned or even paranoid of Ants in your neighborhood. In fact I'd reckon if a person was to go somewhere where the bullet ant is present and get attacked by one, that when they return to their own country they will forever be paranoid of the ground because ants are fucking everywhere. Hell I AM a bit paranoid of ants because Fire Ants aren't that painful, but their bite catches you off guard. Nevermind the host of other annoying and painful asshole bugs and insects out there like Earwigs, Bees and Wasps, and Spiders.

Especially spiders, Arachnophobia almost isn't even a phobia because it's just natural to be fucking batshit paranoid about spiders from our anscetral evolutionary history of dealing with them. Pain and Death makes anyone afraid, it's literally THE very basis for Fear to begin with. So when Shepard kills Sovereign that has to send shivers down Harbinger's metaphorical spine no matter how many times in the past this has happened before.

I recall a few years ago, an American woman on vacation in... Brazil, I think it was, was envenomed by a venomous caterpillar (show of hands, who here knew that was even a thing that exists?) with a powerful anticoagulant. 
*Raises Hand* I'm a person that has always learned too much for their own existential psychology's good.

Either way, it's not like Shepard beat Sovereign on his own. A hilarious string of unpredictable failures is what killed Sovereign. The Protheans sabotaging the keepers, Vigil giving Shepard the data file to unlock the relays, ect. If even one thing in the string of coincidences didn't happen, Sovereign would've succeeded. 
Rif... by definition there is almost no such thing as a "string of coincidences". It's almost an oxymoron/contradiction of terms. I'm not saying it's impossible with the way "Chance" plays out, but it's debateable to what extent Chance really exists in the first place. Considering the way chance plays out in the big picture, that given long enough you will roll every concievable side of a dice at least once eventually. Chance and Destiny/Inevitability seem to be one in the same thing, with Chance just being the finite measure of more trancendent inevitability.

But more specifically when a "string of coincidences" leads to a culmination of one of the biggest cosmic events to ever happen in 50,000 years. It's hard to think that was just "dumb luck". In fact a comparative IRL is during WW2 when the first atomic bomb was dropped. That was also a "string of coincidences" that stemmed all the way back to the scientific community discovering the equation required to make such a weapon possible... meanwhile, said unfathomably powerful knowledge just HAPPENED to fall into the hands of a /jew genius that was smarter than any many past or present/... like already I think you can see the problem here. Considering Hitler was all about exterminating the jews, and 1 jew just happened to unlock /LITERALLY GODLIKE/ power /IN REAL LIFE/, at exactly the time. Also this jew JUST HAPPENED to leave germany before shit popped off with this whole Holocaust thing. Then, to top it all off. That Jew just happened to make THE PERFECT CHOICE on who to give this technology to.

All the while in retrospect, what essentially happened here was someone who decided to ally with Hitler/The Devil... relatively instantly got karmically smote by this Godlike bomb of unfathomable assrape. All of this appearing as just "a string of coincidences"? Or perhaps proof of Divine Intervention and that there is a cosmic consciousness observing us and ready to punish those who dare become wicked enough? I mean, while Christians are preaching about some magical bullshit in book. I'm just over here like... "Yo dawg..."

He died in combat with Shepard because he chose that death.  He could have released control in time easily, but it wouldn't have saved him.  Saren was the only thing he could control in the Citadel, so with Saren's death meant any hope of opening the relay was gone.  He couldn't retreat either, because he was pinned down the Citadel defense fleet.  The only reason he's able to withstand their shots is because he has his mass far too high to move.  He'd be shredded if he tried to make a break for it.  He could beat them in a prolonged battle, but because Shepard opened the relays and alerted the galaxy, everyone was coming.  Christ-knows-how-many dreadnoughts were hauling ass to the Citadel.  He was fucked as soon as the dreadnoughts arrived.  The galaxy has nearly 100 and it only takes 3-4 to kill a Reaper.  The only choice he had was in his choice of death.  Die from a corrupted feedback loop via Shepard, he could make a break for it and be shredded by the Citadel defense force, or he could wait for the dreadnoughts and be bombarded to smithereens.  Forget about winning; simply surviving was just not an option.  So for whatever reason, he chose Shepard.  I like to think it's because while Shepard definitely needed all those coincidences to win, he also showed incredible skill to make advantage of them.  But the whole thing about Reapers is that we can't understand their logic and thought processes, so who knows.
You're seriously asking why? It's more than just Shepard in specific. It doesn't matter how lowly you think someone to be. Any true Warrior, would rather die battling giving it their all... than to get shot in the back.

It's simply logistics really: You're going to die either way, so would you rather die looking like a little bitch... or like the unyielding Demigod you've been hellbent on maintaining you are?

I don't think that's why.  Remember the control ending in Extended Wrist Cut?  "There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy."  Idiots think it's Shepard talking about harnessing the Reapers' power, but it's the other way around.  I don't think Harbinger was afraid of any pattern.  The Reapers have been going for at the very least a billion years. Whatever pattern there may be, it wouldn't be new. 
Confidence and fear, control and submission... are 2 sides of the same coin. No matter how confident a person is in their ability, the place where they are most confident and capable is actually synonymous with the place of their limits. Your strengths are the best you can do, if anything surpasses that then you're fucked as not even your best will help.

So just remember that the lie of Confidence, is that nobody is ever truly confident. If you push a person to that point, that's just them keeping their cool while they stand on the edge. I'm not saying Harbinger FEELS fear, but fear isn't just a feeling... it's an instinct. The more confident you are, the more afraid you are. That's actually an important wisdom that people need to realize, because I'm sure it'll make those who feel insecure feel much better knowing that insecurity is just the way we prepare for our own weakness and thus is paradoxically a kind of confidence in it's own right.

Sidenote: Do you know how Genius what you just said is? Of course, the explanation to the ending is that the choices are a mirror. They aren't what happens to the Reaper, they are what happens to Shepard. I mean destroy literally is just Shepard exploding himself. Meaning High EMS destroy is to say that if Shepard is strong enough, he can choose "destroy" as the Reapers present it and still come out on top. High EMS Destroy is the only choice where Shepard can win the "Argument"/Debate that the writers talked about before the game was released.
Harbinger: "Do you think you can control us? So be it, we will enslave you and harness your power... not the other way around."
"Do you think you can make peace with us? So be it, we will accept your total submission and slavery to our cause."
"Do you think you can simply walk away? So be it, we will slaughter your friends while you watch.

Destroy is the only one with a response from Shepard's end. The other 3 choices are like a stalemate where Shepard automatically concedes and loses the battle of wills because the ideologies are inherently too weak to defeat the Reapers' nature. Destroy goes as follows:

Harbinger: "Do you think you can destroy us? So be it, we will annihilate you."
Shepard: "NO Harbiner, I WILL pull myself out of this rubble and we WILL destroy /YOU/. All come to an end eventually, no matter how mighty."

Either it's not a pattern, or there have been Shepards before.  The latter is far more likely, given the cut dialogue from the crippled Reaper in 2 saying, "We were all Shepards once."  It's unusual for one to actually destroy a Reaper, but I imagine every cycle has at least one "special" warrior.  Part of the pattern is that they try to take that warrior into their fold.
Right but my point is, this "pattern" is clearly something above even the Reaper's genuine understanding. It's not something the Reapers caused. At best it's Karma/Consequence, it's something they cause indirectly as a direct result of their actions. Just as Tyranny begets Rebellion. The reason Shepard and this pattern is a threat to them is because it's like how if a bully keeps on bullying their whole life, they'll eventually meet someone who pushing them actually builds up their resilience to being pushed and said person will push back even harder than how you push because they've felt your pushes for so long and they know intuitively what kind of push is harder than your push.

It's like Natural Selection. In fact that is exactly what is going on here. The Reapers are turning Natural Selection against themselves, oh so ironically considering they consider themselves the pinnacle of Evolution. They are playing out natural selection every cycle, and eventually there will be a cycle that successfully adapts to the challenge of the Reapers. Especially because as you have pointed out, some cycles will still wear them down even if not outright destroy them... and this will lead to a culmination of "coincidental blows" that lead to their extinction.

Sidenote: Holy shit that deleted dialogue tho. Talk about some dark shit right there, and fucking Bioware was shifting away from blunt indoctrination as early as 2? Why else would that dialogue be removed from the game except to avoid having a Reaper bluntly say to Shepard "Bro, you're exactly the kind of person we go out of our way to indoctrinate."

Err...?  What Reaper corpse are you talking about?  The Leviathan of Dis?  The batarians had that.  That one who does a cannonball at the end of the DLC?  How would Shepard get indoctrinated by that?  It barely even passed by him.
Bro, Rif. There's a Reaper down at the bottom of the ocean when Shepard gets down there. It was already down there, completely separate from the Reaper that gets "disabled" as Shep leaves the planet. How did you not notice that? lol

Absolutely agreed on leviathans being bullshit.  I don't understand how so many people accept their nonsense.  There's stuff through the entire DLC that hints about it.  Why are they testing pain tolerance on turians?  They're literally torturing people for unexplained reasons.  Shepard goes down there alone.  This is hugely significant.  The only other time Shepard goes it alone is during Arrival.  And what happens in Arrival?  Who's to say what was even down there?  If you brought James, would he have said there's just a regular old mechanical Reaper and Shepard is hallucinating?  Who the fuck knows?  They back up the Reapers' nonsense "yo dawg" story which makes no sense, that alone should set off alarm bells.  And let's not forget the initial leak of the DLC had "Leviathan" being an actual Reaper that had turned traitor.  That's a MASSIVE shift in storytelling.  But it's not so big a shift if all they changed was the lies the Reapers were peddling.
Right. If we had gotten the original version of the story, then basically we would have been staring a reaper in the face who was /supposedly/ a traitor. I emphasize traitor because the brilliance here is, there's no reason a Reaper couldn't pretend to be a traitor and trick Shepard into accepting their help. In fact if they had went through with the original version in actuality, I'm certain this confrontation would have been just as bizzare and questionable and outright suspcious like the Leviathan confrontation we got.

At the very least, it would have been an actual Reaper that was creating the "mindspace" and hallucinations. Proving that Reapers can do that sort of thing with Indoctrination.

In fact I'm saying we essentially still got this story. I feel like the reason the writers changed the plot was actually because the original version would have had the potential to make mindless bioware players believe that the Reaper was telling the truth. Whereas here it's more indirect and subtle to shift the focus so the story you instead believe is that the Reapers are still bad, but this "Leviathan" is Good. Plus it maintains the continuity of Shepard's personality. Because regardless of the Player, no Shepard in their right mind would ever believe a Reaper turned to the good side. Essentially this is also the ONLY story that Shepard could even believably get duped by. When looking at things /in-context/. It's impossible for us to believe because we're too smart, but Shepard still is a character inside this universe caught up in this ever continuously complex string of events and facts.

I stand by the notion that truly dead Reapers can't indoctrinate. Indoctrination is an active process. If the Reapers' mind is gone, it can't be done. The problem in 2 was Cerberus' foolishness in assuming the crippled one was dead. It wasn't. Sovereign, however, was. The entire goddamn Reaper capital ship was scattered over the Citadel. Despite millions of people being exposed to it and even some things being REVERSE ENGINEERED from Sovereign's remains, we don't have one single solitary known case of indoctrination from Sovereign's wreckage. You think if Sovereign was still capable of indoctrinating that he'd let his tech be reverse engineered? Not a snowball's chance in Hell.  Reverse engineering is the entire reason the batarians stole the Leviathan of Dis, and after 20 years they had NOTHING to show for it.  Because it was still capable of indoctrinating people trying to reverse engineer it.
Yeah that's practically a blasphemy from the Reaper's perspective, allowing lesser beings to even slightly try to understand them more and even outright use their power to our advantage like we control them rather than the other way around.

You pretty much instantly sold me on this, I didn't even think about this possibility but right away it stands out as incredibly likely to be true. It's just more along the Reaper's motives to stretch the truth on just how powerful they really are. Deception is their greatest tool, that is after all what Indoctrination is. Masterful manipulation and deception. Hell it's the same think with dorktanian falling for the Reaper's claim that they are eternal and infinite. The Reapers are just obviously full of a lot of BS hyperbole lol.

I've always said the one doing the cannonball at the end is just playing possum. Like everything else about the Leviathan's story, it makes no fucking sense. They can casually kill Reapers with an EMP-like attack but they're in hiding? Seems legit.
Right and that EMP doesn't effect Shepard's escape shuttle? Because remember, the Reaper is chasing right after Shep. The EMP is powerful enough to take out a goddamn Reaper, but not that tiny little shuttle? It's precisely like the writers wanted to make sure that the scene disproved itself beyond a shadow of a doubt. The ONLY explanation that works is that it was either some sort of Reaper specific signal... which means it's a kind of /Reaper Tech/ just like the signal that disabled the ship originally... or it's just a very weak emp signal that both Reapers used as a "sign" to tell the other one "Hey bro, this is the signal to know when to drop and play dead."

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:56 am

dorktainian wrote:Not time travel as you would think.  Think Groundhog day in space.  Everything resets when the cycle ends so the reapers are no more technologically advanced.

Remember they are 'Harvesting' us.
My response to this was instantly the same as Rif's. The problem with a time loop is you can't "harvest" anything in a time loop. The only real reason to do something like this, is to cheat and make sure you win. But you'd end the loop as soon as you win, and this would mean the Reapers would undo every bit of success Shepard got along the way. So Sovereign would have survived, the Collector Base wouldn't be destroyed, etc.

All the while you're left to think that Harbinger was obsessed with reviving Shepard in this timeline, when the Reapers can just loop back and subdue him.

Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. Remember what the AI on the Asari homeworld said? About the cycle 'repeating itself'?
You just seriously bought what Sovereign said back then. Because personally that was my first clue that they were bold face liars trying to intimidate a lesser species that wouldn't know better and be able to fact check you on what you say.

As for the cycle repeating itself, I saw it as the religious element present in this story. The Asari are a highly religious species, so it was the perfect place to plant it in all of Mass Effect. The "cycle" is the real cosmic divinity. The Reapers think themselves Gods, not even stopping to consider if there is already an actual God in place and well above any mortal species and their technological innovations.

The greatest weakness of the Reapers: If it happens to turn out there is a God, they are in for a rude awakening when they try to contort and corrupt the natural flow of the universe by force.

It's an element that has been very vaguely and subtlely present through the whole trilogy. With Shepard being literal Space Jesus, being "special" as an archetypological inevitability within the very fabric/code of the universe itself. The universe's/God's counter to beings like the Reapers.

I can almost picture Bill Murray waking up after dragging his ass up to see star jar, choosing, and then waking up next morning as if nothing has happened.
If you really want that kind of story so bad, you should watch the anime Attack On Titan. Because if you read the manga and know all the lore as well as the original ending that the dude who made the series, originally intended. Then you'll know that that's exactly what is going on.

The creator of the show was inspired by the movie adaptation of Stephen King's "The Mist". In the movie, the main character ends up shooting his friends and loved ones, even killing an innocent kid. As a "mercy killing" he has a revolver with just enough bullets to kill everyone but himself. The older couple and the girlfriend realize the situation they are in, and give him an unspoken acknowledgement that it would be better if he shoots them in the head before they succumb to the horrors of the monsters in the mist. The kid is the only one who doesn't know, as he's asleep, and thus is the only one "unconsensual" of it. But this isn't the worst part. That actually comes immediately after, as the guy no longer has any bullets and can't kill himself so he leave the car and shouts for the monsters to come kill him because he really wants to die now that he killed the people he most cared about. But in that split moment, a noise is heard in the distance. He thinks it's a monster and waiting for he death he waits and stares into the mist...

Multiple figures appear in the dust, and then it's revealed that it's the US Military on a rescue mission to fend off the monsters and fog and to pick up any stranded survivors. So the dude falls to his knees, grapples his cranium, and screams in sheer agony at the realization that they were just about to be saved and that hope was not lost at all. Despite him literally 2 seconds later, blowing the brains out of his girlfriend, a kid, and 2 old people.

In the original ending of Attack on Titan all of the good characters were going to die. Eren, Mikasa, etc, everybody. In much the same way as the Mist the characters were going to be trapped in a hopeless situation and choose to off themselves... with the last survivor at the last moment discovering the truth about what is outside the walls and that humanity is not going extinct as there are loads of humans thriving in lands accross the ocean where there are no wild Titans. But because AoT became very popular very fast, before the Anime was in production he decided to "change" it to not disappoint fans. But even in the version of the show we got, it starts off from Eren waking up from visions of stuff that is going to happen in the future. Almost as if the story where everybody died, had already taken place and Eren's consciousness shifted over to another universe where he was still alive and before all the events take place.

In the "canonical"/repeated cycle sequence of events, this time around things go completely differently. There's likely a lot of key factors that changed this time around. A strong likely case is that Eren never got the Titan Shifter Powers the first time around or rejected using them because he despised titans so much. Making him just a regular human. The show makes it abundantly clear that Eren is actually way too weak and clumsy compared to other characters in the show, and would have likely died in no time due to wrecklessness early into the story. In fact among the whole sequence of events leading up to the characters discovering the truth about the world outside the furthest wall, this time around, the main difference in general seems to be an increased abundance of characters who are Titan Shifters being placed in the right time and place to break out of situations exactly identical to what the creator of the show claimed was going to be the setting for the original ending.

In other words, starting with Eren originally dying because he refused to utilize the power of the Titans... and that changing this time around because he subconsciously knows that if he doesn't compromise and master his titan form that the same thing will happen. Everything is being turned on it's head and the characters this time around will discover the truth from a much more advantageous and in-control disposition.

Point is, it's a very interesting story when you actually delve into it. It has it's own creepy elements of fantasy, what with the possibility of The Devil being involved with the creation of the Titans. While simultaneously having a scientific factor to it too(when you know about the lore of the "paths", and how titans bodies are formed from energy sent from a higher dimension, it makes more sense than just plain old "devil magic".)

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
TerramineLightvoid
Gas Bag

Posts : 56
Join date : 2017-03-25
Age : 25
Location : Type 7, Omniverse

Back to top Go down

Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 22 of 23 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 21, 22, 23  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum