(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:14 am

dorktainian wrote:Question.  On the Kardashev scale, are the reapers a Type III Civilization that looked down on Leviathan?  Leviathan seen almost as abhorrent by the reapers from a evolution point of view?  Replace Human with Leviathan in the text below.
If the Leviathans were real, and that's almost certainly not the case. Then that would likely be the case yeah. But then that just circles back around to the idea that if Leviathans are real, that the Reapers are just what happens when a Galactic Scale/Type 2 species invents AI or Cybernetic technology. In otherwords the AI conflict itself at the largest and most extreme manifestation.

Also it should be noted that while the odds are that the Reapers are a Type 3 civilization. Technically speaking from the perspective of a Type 0-2 civilization, you wouldn't be able to know the distinction between Type 3 and any level above that. Because Type 3 is already incomprehensibly powerful, you wouldn't be able to much tell the difference between Type 3 and Type 4.

Altho, Type 4 is definitely the level when you'd start messing with the very fabrics of reality n shit and inter-dimensional travel. Type 4 is basically the kind of Species that would be liable to be messing around with Time. The only issue is that so far the KIND of Tech the reapers employ just don't seem to delve into the realms of Space and Time all that much. Indoctrination is their prized weapon, so that tells you where their frame of mind is at. A conqueror species just generally doesn't have the perogative to develop Time based technologies.

At the very least you'd expect them to be like the Time Lords from Doctor Who. A whole species dedicated to Time-based technology.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:02 am

TerramineLightvoid wrote:
dorktainian wrote:Question.  On the Kardashev scale, are the reapers a Type III Civilization that looked down on Leviathan?  Leviathan seen almost as abhorrent by the reapers from a evolution point of view?  Replace Human with Leviathan in the text below.
If the Leviathans were real, and that's almost certainly not the case. Then that would likely be the case yeah. But then that just circles back around to the idea that if Leviathans are real, that the Reapers are just what happens when a Galactic Scale/Type 2 species invents AI or Cybernetic technology. In otherwords the AI conflict itself at the largest and most extreme manifestation.

Also it should be noted that while the odds are that the Reapers are a Type 3 civilization. Technically speaking from the perspective of a Type 0-2 civilization, you wouldn't be able to know the distinction between Type 3 and any level above that. Because Type 3 is already incomprehensibly powerful, you wouldn't be able to much tell the difference between Type 3 and Type 4.

Altho, Type 4 is definitely the level when you'd start messing with the very fabrics of reality n shit and inter-dimensional travel. Type 4 is basically the kind of Species that would be liable to be messing around with Time. The only issue is that so far the KIND of Tech the reapers employ just don't seem to delve into the realms of Space and Time all that much. Indoctrination is their prized weapon, so that tells you where their frame of mind is at. A conqueror species just generally doesn't have the perogative to develop Time based technologies.

At the very least you'd expect them to be like the Time Lords from Doctor Who. A whole species dedicated to Time-based technology.

Talking about Type 4, What about the Star (Anadeus)? Tim's viewing window always faces the star, almost like it's talking to him. It also changes colour depending upon his current state of mind.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TerramineLightvoid on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:31 pm

dorktainian wrote:Talking about Type 4, What about the Star (Anadeus)?  Tim's viewing window always faces the star, almost like it's talking to him.  It also changes colour depending upon his current state of mind.
What makes you think the star is changing based on his state of mind? What makes you think TIM's state of mind changes all that much? I thought it changed based on Shepard's choices? Based on Paragon VS Renegade? At the very least I thought it changed consistently? As in it didn't change back and forth, it went from one color to the next?

It's just really weird to call the star sentient and suspect it's talking to him. It's obvious the only one talking to him is Harbinger. The best explanation for the star is that it's a remnant of the original Dark Energy plotline. With Shepard's decisions being hinted as somehow having an influence on the dark energy situation? Seriously who knows, it's a weird ass plot device that has no elaboration whatsoever(good job Bioware, guess you forgot bout Chekov's Gun).

Edit: Deleted my subsequent posts because I shouldn't post that many times in a row in the main topic, and because the images weren't loading properly so I'll just wait till I've got everything compiled and uploaded somewhere more reliable and post it in my andromeda topic.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:48 am

TerramineLightvoid wrote:Rif... by definition there is almost no such thing as a "string of coincidences". It's almost an oxymoron/contradiction of terms.

...  That doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying it's impossible with the way "Chance" plays out, but it's debateable to what extent Chance really exists in the first place. Considering the way chance plays out in the big picture, that given long enough you will roll every concievable side of a dice at least once eventually. Chance and Destiny/Inevitability seem to be one in the same thing, with Chance just being the finite measure of more trancendent inevitability.

But more specifically when a "string of coincidences" leads to a culmination of one of the biggest cosmic events to ever happen in 50,000 years. It's hard to think that was just "dumb luck".

Ahh.  There's the flaw in your analysis.  You're thinking too small.  Think bigger.  Much bigger.  We've only got the dating on a few Reapers, and one of them is a billion years old.  So it's likely they've been at this for multiple billions of years, but definitely for one.  They've been doing this for tens of thousands of cycles.  If they're harvesting other galaxies, hundreds of thousands.  Or more.  This is Chaos Theory.  I remember a fictionalized version of Julius Ceasar on Hercules: The Legendary Journeys telling his men, "In any battle scenario, there are variables you cannot predict."  That always stuck with me.  That's what's going on here.  This cycle is the law of averages catching up to the Reapers.  No matter how well they plan, eventually, they're going to have a cycle where just about everything goes wrong for them.  That is this cycle.  That's why this cycle is so important.  It has a chance.  A slim one, but a chance.  It will be hundreds of millions if not billions of years before another opportunity like this presents itself.

In fact a comparative IRL is during WW2 when the first atomic bomb was dropped. That was also a "string of coincidences" that stemmed all the way back to the scientific community discovering the equation required to make such a weapon possible... meanwhile, said unfathomably powerful knowledge just HAPPENED to fall into the hands of a /jew genius that was smarter than any many past or present/... like already I think you can see the problem here. Considering Hitler was all about exterminating the jews, and 1 jew just happened to unlock /LITERALLY GODLIKE/ power /IN REAL LIFE/, at exactly the time. Also this jew JUST HAPPENED to leave germany before shit popped off with this whole Holocaust thing. Then, to top it all off. That Jew just happened to make THE PERFECT CHOICE on who to give this technology to.

But... we didn't use the nukes on the nazis.  We used them on cowards who didn't care about your genetics, only if you came from a xenophobic abomination of an archipelago.

All the while in retrospect, what essentially happened here was someone who decided to ally with Hitler/The Devil... relatively instantly got karmically smote by this Godlike bomb of unfathomable assrape.

Allied with?  If you ask me, those cowards were even worse than the nazis.  Have you read the unspeakable shit they did to countries like China and Korea?  When I first read about the Rape of Nanking, I didn't have context and I thought it was fiction.  Really bad fiction.  It wasn't even believable.  It was like something you'd expect to see Darkseid do.  It was just pointless evil for the sake of being cartoonishly over the top evil.  There wasn't even a goal.  As horrific as what the nazis did was, they had a goal.  A purpose.  They believed they were making the human species better by purging it of its worst genetics and making the best parts flourish.  Aimed at proper genetics and done with proper ethics, this would actually be a noble and wonderful end.  Say, using DNA manipulation to eliminate genetic disease and make people smarter.  It's just their goals that were jawdroppingly horrific.  But Nanking?  And things like it?  Holy shit.  Why?  There's no purpose, there's no goal, there's no benefit.  Again, it's like something I'd expect Darkseid to do.  And I use Darkseid because he's the unrealistically over-the-top evil character I know of.  So... imagine my surprise to find out it was a real thing those pathetic fucking cowards actually did.

I consider Japan the worse of the two.  Germany killed more people, Japan caused more suffering.  What burns me most is that the average person has no idea the real story because those goddamn COWARDS are still lying to this fucking day about happened.  They've been spreading misinformation and lies for decades.  Not only do they STILL deny most of their atrocities, since the 70s they started some revisionist bullshit that claims "like, totally" surrendered before Hiroshima and the US nuked them anyway.  Just for the lulz.  No, being comic book monsters is YOUR gimmick, you vile disgusting cowards.  In reality, they took both nukes, and asked the USSR for aid.  Stalin responded by declaring war on the weakened Japan.  Because of course he did, he's fucking Stalin.  Only after both nukes AND the Soviet declaration of war did Japan discuss surrender.  And the military tries to stage a coup so they could keep fighting!  Meanwhile, Germany takes full responsibility for their ancestor's actions and condemns them with as much fervor as even the jews.  Thus I hold no grudge with modern Germany.  My grudge for modern Japan has its own fucking gravity.

All of this appearing as just "a string of coincidences"? Or perhaps proof of Divine Intervention and that there is a cosmic consciousness observing us and ready to punish those who dare become wicked enough? I mean, while Christians are preaching about some magical bullshit in book. I'm just over here like... "Yo dawg..."

You're aware that the firebombing of Tokyo did far more damage, both structurally and loss-of-life wise, than the nuclear bombings?

Considering this technology has ended up in the hands of the likes of Stalin and North Korea, I'm disinclined to believe it's some form of divine retribution.  Natural disasters would've done as much or more damage without giving these "godlike" weapons to some of the most evil people in the world.

But to entertain your belief, I will say I always thought that although agnostic/atheist myself, I think the best evidence for a higher being being involved is the insane string of coincidences that have prevented a nuclear exchange during the cold war.  There were tons of times some stupid accident almost caused one side to launch prematurely.  For example, one time an intruder tripped an alarm on a nuclear base in America.  This sent out a warning to all other nuclear bases to be on high alert for possible infiltration. Only the alarms were wired wrong at one base.  They didn't get "high alert", they got "DEFCON 1: Confirmed nuclear war"  They realized the error with only moments to spare.  Bombers armed with nuclear weapons were taxiing for takeoff when one of the troops frantically drove a truck onto the runway to prevent them from taking off.  They were to be under radio silence.  If those birds got into the air, there would've been no calling them back.  Oh, and the intruder that trigger the whole mess?  It was just a fucking bear scavenging for food.

What's generally regarded as the closest we came to an accidental nuclear exchange was actually just after the Soviet Union fell.  Radar showed a bogey at high speed coming toward Russia.  Then it split off like a MIRV and everyone rightly shit themselves.  Boris Yeltsin was informed and he went through some of the tensest moments any human has ever had.  He had to make the decision to launch BEFORE the MIRV struck because once it did, their ability to counterattack would be lost.  This is the only time in history that either the US or Russia/USSR ever opened the famed "nuclear football" and retrieved the ICBM launch codes.  That's how close it was.  With literally seconds left for Yeltsin to make the call, the "MIRV" dropped harmlessly into the ocean.  It was actually a science probe launched by NATO to study the northern lights.  They explicitly warned Russia beforehand that they were launching it and that it would resemble a MIRV but not to worry.  Some impossibly careless drunken ruskie cunt almost destroyed the world by not bothering to pass the message up the chain of command.

There's at least a dozen of these "near miss" stories.  Some are only coming out recently.  Undoubtedly some are still secret.  But there were many times only dumb luck prevented an accidental exchange.

In fact I'm saying we essentially still got this story.

Yeah, that's what I meant.  Going from "Reaper tells lies to trick you into thinking it's an ally" to "Reaper pretends to be its creator to trick you into thinking it's an ally" is a minor shift.  Going from "genuine traitor Reaper joins your cause" to "Reaper's creators are alive and well and they join your cause" is a tectonic shift.

I think, even among those of us with enough common sense to realize the whole Leviathan story is bullshit (which is surprisingly rare even among IT'ers), it's severely underestimated how important it is that Shepard was alone when he confronted those cuttlefish.

Right and that EMP doesn't effect Shepard's escape shuttle? Because remember, the Reaper is chasing right after Shep. The EMP is powerful enough to take out a goddamn Reaper, but not that tiny little shuttle? It's precisely like the writers wanted to make sure that the scene disproved itself beyond a shadow of a doubt. The ONLY explanation that works is that it was either some sort of Reaper specific signal... which means it's a kind of /Reaper Tech/ just like the signal that disabled the ship originally... or it's just a very weak emp signal that both Reapers used as a "sign" to tell the other one "Hey bro, this is the signal to know when to drop and play dead."

Well it's not an EMP, it just functions like one to mass effect drives.  It's theoretically possible for it to be a focused beam weapon rather than an area effect like an explosion.  The beam could be off the spectrums visible to humans and could easily target the Reaper without effecting the shuttle.  Even in real life we have some prototype technology along these lines.  American military planes, especially fighters, will soon be able to use an invisible beam weapon to fry the radar of whatever it's pointed at.

I'm speaking hypothetically, of course.  I'm 100% on board with the "Reaper was just acting" notion.

dorktainian wrote:Talking about Type 4, What about the Star (Anadeus)?  Tim's viewing window always faces the star, almost like it's talking to him.  It also changes colour depending upon his current state of mind.

It doesn't change color.  It's not the same star.  It's mentioned in the novels that TIM's base is mobile and is constantly moving to different systems.  Of course, that base is also described as tiny with a staff of maybe a dozen or so.  Definitely not the behemoth we assaulted.  Either the devs that worked on that part of the game didn't know their lore or it's more evidence we're in the matrix long before the beam run.  Regardless, Karpyshyn didn't leave until 2 was done so they'd have definitely gotten it right in 2.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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