(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by WeAreHarbinger on Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:39 pm

Eh, much of the same. Jetpack addition & new melee weapons aside the one thing i'm really meh about is the new Inferno. I always liked throwing a fireball at someone in the older games, this is just like Skyrim in space. I'm still convinced they took the most popular games of this decade and used all their shit and slapped an ME skin on it. I miss being hyped for Mass Effect games...

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:41 pm

One thing I liked is that it seems to have more biotic kinetic capability than ever, maybe including ME1?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:44 pm

That face though. Might be a good candidate for the smile face memes
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:32 pm

1:40 the Remnant weapon



ME3 Prothean weapon:





Collector weapon:





They make the point that Milky Way, Remnant, Andromedan weaponry are different, yet the Remnant tech continues to seem at least somewhat similar to what we've seen before, in a supposedly finished story.

Granted, this doesn't *necessarily* mean anything, especially considering the appearance of Turian rifles (unless that means something! dum dum dummm). Its just strange that these Remnant weapons look so close to things Reaper or Prothean. And we know Bioware can do different, since they showed the Andromedan style.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:05 am

The actual levels and other details are looking rather good, like how it should be for modern Frost Bite 3.0 engine (it can be better like BF1). This just shows how straightforward it is use the base FB3.0 editor for level designers.

It's when custom parts come in Bioware' mediocrity sticks out like with Facial detail shaders, Facial MoCap et cetera. Parts that require external data Bioware are still resorting to hand crafted animations but for some reason it's even worse than the trilogy. To me it looks like the expertise from a special few who did it in the past has eroded away due to staff departures, the expertise hasn't been properly handed down. Performance MoCap is being restricted to just body movements which can be fairly less expensive when it comes to modeling with fewer sensors. There are superior solutions out there for a price that use one or very few sensors on the head, looks like EA hasn't given Bioware the budgets/approvals to procure such solutions, shows you how much they really care about this series now. Most tend to make fun of the COD franchise but putting that aside and looking at what they have done for VFX objectively with Facial animations and detail, it is just fantastic.

In any case BF3.0' appeal can only increase for other game developers who don't want to spend too much on costly R&D for game engines. FB with mostly reusable shaders and compute code is good value if you have the budgets to start with. Frost Bite is shaping into a great engine made greater by superb IDEs, kudos to DICE
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Eryri on Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:31 pm

Is it possible to do facial mocap with a customisable protagonist face? I don't know anything about it, so please forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question, but wouldn't it be difficult to map one actor's facial movements to a whole range of possible faces?
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:49 pm

lol, sorry this topic again, but it's just too funny.

https://cdn.shazoo.ru/190020_WJEpLiWfjR_tumblr_olbbcvi6wm1sn2dtbo1_1280.jpg

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:57 pm

crash23 wrote:1:40 the Remnant weapon



The more they try to make a gun look alien and exotic, the more the rifles end up looking like anime space warships.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:08 pm

Eryri wrote:Is it possible to do facial mocap with a customisable protagonist face? I don't know anything about it, so please forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question, but wouldn't it be difficult to map one actor's facial movements to a whole range of possible faces?


In typical high quality facial MoCaps they will do a facial capture for the basic structure of the character's face, usually with someone who sort of fits the likeness. If they use the likeness of the actual VO then even more easier. If the character's appearance is a total work of fiction then they seek out a best possible match as their performer. In anycase actual human performance is captured and mapped onto the mesh model. The results will still be light years ahead of the crap Bioware are doing now, which is hand crafted. The infamous Shepard smile is one such abomination from the hand crafted animations but it was acceptable for that time.

To answer your question, they should use multiple performers and capture the performance live as they act it out in sync with the set pieces the level design , cinematic and concept artists have put together. Many studios use regular stage actors to act as performers because high profile celebrity VOs have tight schedules and might not be feasible to have them perform and do VOs in the same day (eg: Seth Green, Tricia Helfer). If a professional model has lent their likeness then it comes down to their contracting fees in spending time for performance captures. Some of them might not be willing to put in the time because they are not well versed in acting as this requires good facial expressions, much easier to depend on a professional troupe of stage performers. Their services will be much cheaper for studios as they are not some high profile celebrity. If a game offers customizations, it can be offered with a range in mind, the range is done by a compute code that accounts for how much variation can be had so as to not lose the original performance' nuances. This has been done before and it simply works just very well. Bottom line being actual human facial performances captured always ends up giving you very good results.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Eryri on Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:36 pm

Thanks for the explanation. In that case, it does seem odd that Bioware would cut corners like this on a flagship title. I can't imagine Jayde Rossi is particularly pleased to be associated with that image.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by jojon2se on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:53 pm

Well, it's just Miranda all over again, isn't it?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:07 am

jojon2se wrote:Well, it's just Miranda all over again, isn't it?
Uhhh no?  Miranda actually looked like her gorgeous model.  That... thing looks like the result of some unethical scientist trying to see what a genderless person with neither testosterone nor estrogen during their developmental phases would end up looking like.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:38 am

I don't think the bit of facial animation was necessarily bad, in that bit in the Combat Trailer. Yeah the hand motions were not perfect and the Ryder Smile is concerning.

But its more like its animation from expectations from the early 10s, not the now mid/late 10s. Like Bioware hasn't evolved so much when they should have over the last decade. They try to make up for it by not being just about narrative (as in they're not just a Telltale game), and by having so much cinematic story (as in they're not just a top down CRPG without cutscenes), and by mixing scenes in with action so much (so they're not just a shooter).

Going for narrative experience rather than a super focus on cinematic realism. I think that works, to an extent. I understand that in ambitious projects, aspects of them have constraints. But in DAI and maybe in MEA, the flaws are really showing. Maybe not enough for me to rant like a lot online are, but I can see where many people are coming from. 'New IP' might be the last game I personally give anything like a 'pass' on this issue (if I end up playing it). After that, Bioware must have 'realistic animations' throughout all content; it will be beyond due.


That said, I don't find any of the characters, including Sara Ryder and Peebee, to be ugly. Not exactly fitting a more specified 'space babe' material, but not ugly and looking more like people in space. That one comparison pic of Sara and an edit isn't really a great representation. I think they're going for a more 'eager' look (and sound) for Scott/Sara compared to John/Jane and much of that works; really the problem with Sara for me is not the eyes or face shape but the impression of a constant half-smile. And I don't think Bioware is aiming for their protagonists to outright appear to be a model - I think even Sheploo had enough differences (link) to make him look more rugged/serious.  male ryder example


EDIT: What I mean is, I don't consider this to be ugly. In that video, it was more the animations that portrayed the model that I found pretty jarring. Does she look just like a primped up photo of her face model? No, and she shouldn't. She should look more like a trained Alliance soldier, and she does. But I'm disappointed with how she's conveyed in scenes so far. Not as disappointed in this latest video, but they gave us like 5 seconds so judge so.. whatever.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:06 am

crash23 wrote:What I mean is, I don't consider this to be ugly.

Well, we're gonna have to agree to disagree there.  That genderless golem is nasty.  I was only half joking about it looking like it out sick the day the Reaper gods were handing out puberty.  The secondary sexual characteristics are just non-existent.

You say what they "should" look like, but here's a thing... people will be more attractive in the future.  We're more attractive than people in history were.  Helen of Troy was probably a dog by modern standards.  There's multiple reasons for this.  The most basic of course is natural selection.  Prettier people have more opportunities to breed, so there's more children from prettier people and less from ugly people.  This effect will always be active and always making the species more attractive.  Mass Effect is only a few hundred years in the future (at least when they get frozen for the trip) so the effect won't be too pronounced.  Fortunately it's not the only factor at work.  Cosmetic aids are cheaper, easier to use, and generally more available as civilization advances.  This benefits both genders, but women moreso.  IIRC during a Kahlee Sanders bit in a novel, they discussed how far makeup has come in Mass Effect's era compared to ours.  And it's god damn far.  Another factor is that genetic manipulation is a relatively cheap and common practice in Mass Effect's era.  There'll be lots of designer babies which will feed into the natural selection enhancements.  Even when babies are designed to be supermodels, people will be taking out traits they don't like.  Say the father has a big nose and was teased for it when he was a kid.  Even if he's not redesigning the entire baby, he'll probably fix its nose if he can afford it.

All in all, yes, Mass Effect characters should be very attractive by modern standards.  That botched experiment femRyder would just be ugly today but she's just plain out of place in a realistic depiction of Mass Effect.  "Soldier" or not.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by magnetite on Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:56 am

Rifneno wrote:
All in all, yes, Mass Effect characters should be very attractive by modern standards.  That botched experiment femRyder would just be ugly today but she's just plain out of place in a realistic depiction of Mass Effect.  "Soldier" or not.

Probably needs some makeup and plastic surgery.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by jojon2se on Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:40 am

Rifneno wrote:Uhhh no?  Miranda actually looked like her gorgeous model.
...

You really think so? I always thought she did indeed look like Yvonne Stra... Stry.. Yvonne S, if you first flattened her face with a few good bashings with a frying pan, and then gave the bruises some time to swell.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:59 pm

She looks like a kid, like she hasn't hit puberty yet.

There's something really wrong with her eyes, I can't explain why, but she looks like she's mentally handicapped in every single shot, including this one.

But this is just a still. She looks really bad when animated.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:11 pm

Updated models. Newer left, older right.



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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:28 pm

Still giving me the derpy look. Less chronically puzzled though.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:33 pm

I was just going over the shown weapon lists in the combat trailer. The Mattock is back. And now apparently there's an Asari sword. A Asari sword. An... A... crap, my grammar's failing me.

There's also a Krogan hammer, but how is a human supposed to wield one?
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:16 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:I was just going over the shown weapon lists in the combat trailer.  The Mattock is back.  And now apparently there's an Asari sword.  A Asari sword.  An...  A... crap, my grammar's failing me.

There's also a Krogan hammer, but how is a human supposed to wield one?

It is noted that it is a smaller or lighter version, for young krogan or strong humans. AKA handwave haha

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by magnetite on Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:58 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:
There's also a Krogan hammer, but how is a human supposed to wield one?

I'm sure this guy can wield it:

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:42 am

uugh Scott Steiner, the guy acts like a pedophile.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:26 am

crash23 wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:I was just going over the shown weapon lists in the combat trailer.  The Mattock is back.  And now apparently there's an Asari sword.  A Asari sword.  An...  A... crap, my grammar's failing me.

There's also a Krogan hammer, but how is a human supposed to wield one?

It is noted that it is a smaller or lighter version, for young krogan or strong humans. AKA handwave haha

I just kind of find the idea of dedicated melee weapons in the Mass Effect universe weird.

Biotic Punches and Omni-Tools make sort of sense since you always have them on hand if you end up in a situation where you need to defend yourself in melee. Similarly the Krogan are known for their use of Shotguns and ability to withstand massive amounts of punishment, as well as their massive strength, so them wading in there with a massive hammer seems a bit more believable.

But otherwise it just seems like you either dedicate all your prowess to the melee weapon with various gadgets to support that (kind of like the Cerberus Phantoms) or just rely on Omni-Tool / Biotics / Bayonets for when you really need to. A dedicated melee weapon just seems like it would take up far too much space for how little you would use it otherwise.

Hell the codex even mentions:
"Although melee-combat applications for the omni-tool are almost as old as the device itself, the feature was largely unused prior to the Reaper invasion. The need to take on multiple husks in close quarters forced the Alliance to develop ways to enhance the tool's offensive capability.

The most common melee design is the "omni-blade," a disposable silicon-carbide weapon flash-forged by the tool's mini-fabricator. The transparent, nearly diamond-hard blade is created and suspended in a mass effect field safely away from the user's skin. Warning lights illuminate the field so the searing-hot blade only burns what it is intended to: the opponent."

The highlighted bit is what bugs me. Melee really was only considered by most when there was a proper need for it and they solved the problem in a way that integrated directly with an existing piece of gear for the soldiers. That and whatever fully forged melee weapon you make has to be pretty damn good to beat "nigh diamon-hard, searing-hot" and most importantly, litterally right on hand.

But i guess Mass Effect is hardly the only setting where one could question that logic. But to me it just feels like another step away from what once made the series great.

Edit: Also, while I am nitpicking anyway.

The Tempest Pathfinder quarters are way too huge for a ship supposedly optimized for its role.

At 1:26 of this vid they show the Pathfinder quarters and they are massive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsgrYq967TM

Meanwhile this was the SR2 Captains Quarters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwubeCaub-M

Shepard notes how the quarters of the SR2 are larger than any other warship he has seen, already benchmarking how even captains are not given undue luxury at the expense of the warships ability. Sure, the Tempest is not a warship, but it is not going on a picnic trip to the Citadel either and one would think they would use at least some guidelines for using their space effectively. Especially since they apparently already sacrificed the ship guns on the Tempest for...something. We could have a three man row of Garrus calibrating, with a gun each, in those Pathfinder Quarters.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by crash23 on Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:44 pm

Cool thematic vid IMO


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