Mass Effect 3 Indoctrination Theorists
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The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

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What is your opinion about Refuse and the possibilities with IT (multiple votes possible)?

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Total Votes : 137
 
 

The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse - Page 7 Empty Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:40 pm

@Topic: Shepard says word for word why he picks Refuse if you do pick it, it's because it's better for everyone to die free compared to living in submission. This is mimicking those EDI quotes, Destroy is saying the opposite, it's saying that it is better for everybody else to live at the expense of the Geth's freedom. Most people argue that Destroy can't be a trap because Shepard's mind would provide a way out. Which is argued as something the Reapers couldn't control. However this makes no sense at all, and to explain why I want to say something but if at any point it seems irrelevant, just keep reading and you will understand my point:

Indoctrination is using subliminal messages and other forms of control over the subconscious in order to change your resolve. Now the ending of the game is the pinnacle of the indoctrination attempt and everything you see after either the M77 crash or Harbinger's beam is not real. It's all within Shepard's subconscious. The Reapers don't have absolute control over what you see, they can only guide the motivation behind it by using their manipulative ways. So your subconscious actually sets everything up all by itself, it is just guided by the Reaper's manipulations.

Now once again the extent of Reaper control is limited, everything that happens is set up by the subconscious but it all has deeper meanings to it. For example Anderson, TIM and the Catalyst represent the 3 choices. Now the subconscious specifically made Anderson the representation of Destroy, which is an entirely separate entity from Shepard. Just like with TIM, and yet nobody argues that Shepard has a "control" side of himself. TIM is a separate entity for the very exact reason that Control is NOT Shepard's resolve. This alone should put great doubt into Destroy, because it is separate from Shepard which indicates it is not his resolve.

Now when you are in the decision chamber, there is 3 options and the Catalyst. Many argue the Catalyst does not support destroy and that clearly he is deterring you from it. But this is not true, he does not seem to act negatively about the idea of being Destroyed. This is another thing that makes it beyond creepy and untrustworthy, because he has a neutral attitude to being Destroyed, almost as if it won't actually do as it says at all. The breathe scene in fact already goes to great extent to call bullshit, because Shepard is part synthetic and yet he lives. So if the Catalyst lied about that, what else did he lie about?

Most Destroyers however are a bit illogical with this, because their distrust ends at the part where the Catalyst says all synthetics will die. However the fun fact that should be mentioned, is that he lies about much more than that. We already accept Synthesis and Control as a lie, we know he is lying about his motivations and goals, we know he is putting on the innocent child facade to lie about his nature in general. Yet the 1 thing that is off limits for Destroyers, is the idea that Destroy is also a lie. Everything else can be a lie, but Destroy cannot possibly be a lie?

I have recently come to accept the idea that all 3 choices ARE Reaper choices. Many argue Destroy HAS to be there because it's Shepard's choice. This however does not make as much sense compared to when you apply the same logic to Refuse. The reason the Reapers cannot change Shepard's choice, whatever his resolve actually is, is because they do not have control over it in the first place... not even a tiny bit. While Destroy is presented by Shepard's subconscious, it's guided by manipulations.

If you think about what everything means. It seems the 3 choices have physical representations because you have to actually CHOOSE them. You see, that's the thing. Shepard's "resolve" should not be a "choice" because Shepard already accepts his/her Resolve by DEFAULT. A person is who they are by default, that means it takes no effort on your part.. to stay who you are. The 3 choices are separate entities from Shepard, and to choose them is to move away from being yourself because you are already you by default.

Destroy does not JUST destroy the Reapers, it also costs some freedom. If Shepard's resolve is in fact that freedom is what is important, then that means Destroy is a compromise with his resolve. Because Destroy subtly makes freedom into a sacrifice, not JUST the lives of the Geth are lost but so is their chance at freedom.

It makes more sense they would twist your own resolve the most, which they do with Destroy. The Reapers/The Catalyst is neutral towards destroy, even more so than Control, what do they get out of it? Destroy is painted as Shepard's resolve for a reason, however it manipulates you into thinking you'd be willing to destroy the Reapers no matter what.

That means Shepard would give up EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to destroy the Reapers? That makes no fracking sense at all! That is exactly the sort of thing that screams "indoctrination", a person who is willing to do anything to destroy the Reapers is exactly the kind of person I'd expect to be under the control of the Reapers thinking it will lead to their destruction >.>

He does not sway you from it, the only reason you feel compelled to not choose it is BECAUSE you know deep down that there is SOMETHING wrong with it. The Catalyst is neutral and casual about it... "Yeah you can destroy us if you want, whatever we wouldn't really give a fuck *yawns*". That does NOT qualify as deterring you from it.
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The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse - Page 7 Empty Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:04 pm

It should also be mentioned, that the Catalyst takes off his disguise in Refuse ONLY. This means that he is going to stop lying, just as a liar does when his lies won't work anymore. A liar will lie as long as they can, if they can no longer lie then it's as simple as that... their lies wont work anymore. Yet in all 3 choices he keeps his disguise, even in Destroy he never removes his disguise even though he "evaporates". Which means Shepard will always look at the catalyst the same way.

In order to wake up as normal, it's possible you need to realize it's all a trap in order to wake up. Shepard looks sad, but weirdly he never had an "aha!" moment. Even AFTER hearing a Reaper's voice coming from the "child", usually in a dream-like state it takes a second to realize you are dreaming. But 2 things happen when you do, either you wake up or you become Lucid, which if you become Lucid you can choose to wake up anyways.

Yet in the 3 choices, Destroy, Control and Synthesis... Shepard never has anything that will cause him to go "AHA! ITSA TRAP!". I doubt Shepard would realize it's a trap on his own, however hearing the child talk like a Reaper is ENOUGH to suddenly question everything he has heard so far.

Even more important, is that the 3 options all have something about them that can manipulate him/her into becoming indoctrinated. However the same cannot be said about Refuse if you think about it. What does the catalyst say? He says "SO BE IT! The Cycle CONTINUES!". So if we assume he is still lying, what does that say about Refuse?

Well it seems simple really, it seems he is actually bluffing.. so that way he crushes Shepard's hope. But while Shepard may not realize it just yet, the only reason your enemy would resort to such tactics is BECAUSE you have hope. The only reason they will waste time to tell you that you have no hope, is because they are afraid of losing. But he ONLY resorts to the bluff in Refuse, he acts neutral about Destroy.

So it's as if, he is deterring you from Refuse because it is the REAL way to destroy the Reapers. Once again I'd like to put emphasis on the fact that he is not deterring you from Destroy, but instead Refuse.
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Post by DoomsdayDevice Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:12 pm

Well, here's the thing.

I don't think destroy does anything at all. The crucible doesn't go off. The Reapers aren't destroyed, and neither are EDI or the Geth.

It's all in Shepard's head. The only thing choosing destroy does, is making it explicit that wanting to destroy the Reapers is still what Shepard wants to do.

(Now of course Shepard doesn't know any of that. (S)he believes that things will actually play out as they are explained by the catalyst.)

Refuse doesn't make any sense.

Shepard refuses to use the Crucible. As a result, the entire cycle is harvested. And in the next cycle, someone else uses the Crucible, yay! So it's basically Liara who saved the next cycle. (If we can even take that stargazer scene seriously). Not Shepard, (s)he decided to do nothing even when the option to destroy the Reapers was right there.

Does not compute.
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Post by Restrider Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:30 pm

IronicParticle wrote:@Topic: Shepard says word for word why he picks Refuse if you do pick it, it's because it's better for everyone to die free compared to living in submission. This is mimicking those EDI quotes, Destroy is saying the opposite, it's saying that it is better for everybody else to live at the expense of the Geth's freedom.

Interesting that you point that out.
EDI's dialogue with Shepard concerning the non-functionality has always been linked to foreshadow Destroy. However, if you take into consideration the lines before that often cited "non-functionality" line, you have EDI depicting humans in concentration camps refusing to rat on other captives. I think this should be added to the quote thread.
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Post by Terramine Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:06 pm

@DD: "The only thing choosing destroy does, is making it explicit that wanting to destroy the Reapers is still what Shepard wants to do."

However if you payed attention, I am calling into question what Shepard wants. I am arguing that Shepard ONLY wants to destroy the Reapers in order to maintain freedom. I am arguing that Shepard does NOT think Destroy is the MOST IMPORTANT. Remember there IS a difference between something being the only way, and it being the most important. Destroying the Reapers in general is the only way, but freedom is most important. Meaning if you must sacrifice freedom to Destroy the Reapers, then you are making a compromise just like in Synthesis and Control.

So I am presenting the argument that Shepard would rather die TRYING finding another way to destroy the Reapers, if it is the only chance to avoid sacrificing freedom.

Only way: destroy the reapers.
Most important: freedom.
Only chance to destroy the Reapers AND maintain freedom: refuse to use the Crucible.

So you see, if to Shepard freedom is MOST important... and the ONLY way to destroy the Reapers and avoid sacrificing the Geth's freedom, is Refuse. Then Shepard's resolve is Refuse.

Is it better for everyone to die free, or for a few to die and lose their freedom so others can have theirs? If freedom is most important, then everyone dying free is better. you are right, what we see does not actually happen... so it would make perfect sense that if Shepard sticks to Refuse, he will wake up, find the real way that destroys the Reapers.

You yourself acknowledge that nothing we see happens, but it's all about what Shepard would do if it really was going to happen. Because to him it IS real. I am saying Shepard would not sacrifice freedom even if it means everyone dies. Because at LEAST everyone dies, ALL equally and fully free compared to Destroy.

@Restrider: Indeed, it is important to think about what actually motivates her into thinking that way in the first place. Because context is very important.
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Post by DoomsdayDevice Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:19 pm

I simply don't see how sacrificing the Geth is sacrificing their freedom.

You're not selling them into slavery, they're killed. (If taken literally)

And then you argue that it's somehow better if we refuse, because then we'll all die free....

How do we die free in refuse, but do the Geth not die free in destroy?

It's either:

- Synthetics die

or

- Everyone dies

Not to mention that you're still relying on someone else to do the dirty work of using the crucible to destroy the Reapers.

The act of refusal doesn't stop the Reapers. In fact it only delays the Reapers' destruction. It seems like hypocrisy, really. Refusing to fire a gun, but then giving it to someone else, so he can finish the job for you, and you can say you didn't kill anybody.


Last edited by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by richie21 Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:17 pm

IronicParticle wrote:It should also be mentioned, that the Catalyst takes off his disguise in Refuse ONLY. This means that he is going to stop lying, just as a liar does when his lies won't work anymore. A liar will lie as long as they can, if they can no longer lie then it's as simple as that... their lies wont work anymore. Yet in all 3 choices he keeps his disguise, even in Destroy he never removes his disguise even though he "evaporates". Which means Shepard will always look at the catalyst the same way.


yeah that's what I'm saying, he even keeps the Crucible on for you to choose his options he obviously got something up his sleeve even with Destroy it's like beginning indoctrination because you have to go through Reaper logic to do it.
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Post by jojon2se Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:15 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
...

It's either:

- Synthetics die

or

- Everyone dies

...

Well, the Reapers sure seem to have sold you their entire shipment of fatalism, at higher than asking rate.
Desperate people do desperate things.

There is also the usual cherrypicking some things for taking at face value, whilst not doing the same for counterparts...

EDIT: Sorry; That probably came across wa-haay ruder than intended (...which is: "not at all", believe it or not). I'm not changing it, because I can't think of a better way to say it, but... well, sorry.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:53 pm

jojon2se wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
...

It's either:

- Synthetics die

or

- Everyone dies

...

Well, the Reapers sure seem to have sold you their entire shipment of fatalism, at higher than asking rate.
Desperate people do desperate things.

There is also the usual cherrypicking some things for taking at face value, whilst not doing the same for counterparts...

EDIT: Sorry; That probably came across wa-haay ruder than intended (...which is: "not at all", believe it or not). I'm not changing it, because I can't think of a better way to say it, but... well, sorry.

I'm not sure what you mean, so I don't know what to say.

It just seems to me that the moment you stand before the Ah, yes... catalyst isn't exactly the right time to gamble.
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Post by jojon2se Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:12 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean, so I don't know what to say.

It just seems to me that the moment you stand before the :ahyes: catalyst isn't exactly the right time to gamble.

Ah -- thing, though, is that (in my eyes, at least), taking the "so-called" on his word, as to what the three proffered options do - that is the gambling here.

This entity is designed by Bioware to represent all those that you could not save - it takes you on a guilt trip and has apparently managed to make you accept that all is lost, unless you sacrifice just that tiiiny little bit of humanity... Go on, you know you want to.
Well; Maybe you don't want to, but look at how hopeless everything is... Everyone is dying... you... you must, or everybody will die. We can not coexist with the Reapers... They must be destroyed... Reapers are largely synthetic... We have a weapon that can fry synthetics... Poor Geth, though... Synthetics... Reapers are... We can not coexist with Rea... Must be destroyed... Weapon doesn't affect organics... Poor Geth - synthetic - go through Geth to get to the reapers... Must be destroyed... Can not coex....
...
Organics can not coexist with synthetics.
They must be destroyed. (EDIT: <- Ok, I seriously botched reflexivity there, but... :P)

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Post by DoomsdayDevice Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:05 am

jojon2se wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean, so I don't know what to say.

It just seems to me that the moment you stand before the Ah, yes... catalyst isn't exactly the right time to gamble.

Ah -- thing, though, is that (in my eyes, at least), taking the "so-called" on his word, as to what the three proffered options do - that is the gambling here.

This entity is designed by Bioware to represent all those that you could not save - it takes you on a guilt trip and has apparently managed to make you accept that all is lost, unless you sacrifice just that tiiiny little bit of humanity... Go on, you know you want to.
Well; Maybe you don't want to, but look at how hopeless everything is... Everyone is dying... you... you must, or everybody will die. We can not coexist with the Reapers... They must be destroyed... Reapers are largely synthetic... We have a weapon that can fry synthetics... Poor Geth, though... Synthetics... Reapers are... We can not coexist with Rea... Must be destroyed... Weapon doesn't affect organics... Poor Geth - synthetic - go through Geth to get to the reapers... Must be destroyed... Can not coex....
...
Organics can not coexist with synthetics.
They must be destroyed. (EDIT: <- Ok, I seriously botched reflexivity there, but... :P)

Okay, yeah, I see where you're coming from, with that 'sacrificing humanity'. But was Hackett sacrificing a bit of his humanity when he sacrificed one fleet, so the other two could escape? IMO, no, these are the hard calls military leaders unfortunately need to make from time to time.

To me, choosing destroy is actually rejecting the catalyst's assertion that the created will always rebel, and that it requires some permanent, forced solution. You don't care that 'the chaos will come back', because you accept that there will be conflict, but we can always try to make peace on our own terms.
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Post by jojon2se Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:03 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Okay, yeah, I see where you're coming from, with that 'sacrificing humanity'. But was Hackett sacrificing a bit of his humanity when he sacrificed one fleet, so the other two could escape? IMO, no, these are the hard calls military leaders unfortunately need to make from time to time.

Yes, he did - as did Shepard in Arrival.
And if those calls do not in any way haunt these leaders for the rest of their days, I'd say they had no place leading anything to begin with; Such a solid ability to steel yourself would indeed indicate becoming inhumane - the "Catalyst" exploiting "weakness" notwithstanding.
Hackett shows a strong sense of regret, for all that it is overruled by rational justification - this shows he retains his humanity, on a higher level. He does not have to be the odd movie colonel, who callously throws more and more cannon fodder at a tactically hopless venture; in order to give up something of himself.
(Incidently; As far as I am concerned, the much maligned Lieutenant Victus, from the game, made the right call, when he opted for a more prudent, stealthy, approach, over the good old "honourable" and expected: "let's charge openly, head on into enemy fire" -- only the fortunes of war were not with him that day. He had other failings, but that was not it.)

There is the matter of proportionality.
I know you can argue that there are no civilian Geth or EDIs and so on and point to their stated dedication to stick it to the reapers - to the end, but comparing ordering a unit of soldiers to stay behind, to personally pulling the trigger on an entire people, still doesn't strike me as a fair analogy.

The second fleet crews laid down their lives for others, but I expect many of these others were close ones; family, friends, their own kind.
You take away the Geth's inclusion. They become no longer among "us", but a "them" - no matter how highly we may posthumously honour them as martyrs.
They do not get to at least try to fight for their future, also - only ours, and while that may be a sacrifice they'd be happy to make, it reflects poorly on us making the choice for them. Take, but not give back. (kind of the approach some commercial entities have to Open Source Software :P).

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
To me, choosing destroy is actually rejecting the catalyst's assertion that the created will always rebel, and that it requires some permanent, forced solution. You don't care that 'the chaos will come back', because you accept that there will be conflict, but we can always try to make peace on our own terms.

Of course.
Just like a player who chooses synthesis genuinely believes he does it for the betterment of everybody and for complete harmony between equal, happy individuals, and the controller believes himself to be the perfect just and unintrusive benevolent guiding hand. You always go in with the best of intentions - intentions that the reapers twist into perverted faux-facsimilies of what they were.

(EDIT: Might as well throw in the ususal disclaimer about not meaning to state anything as fact and expecting to be wrong about a great many things. At the end of the day, the arbitrary decisions of Casey's team, trumps the arbitrary speculations of all of us. Personally I am hoping they have something up their sleeve, that is mindblowingly great, but which none of us ever thought of. :)

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Post by DoomsdayDevice Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:25 pm

Well sure, I agree with everything you said about Hackett. These things shouldn't be done lightly, and of course that kind of decision will forever haunt you.

And it goes without saying that nothing is fact and everything is just opinion, as far as I'm concerned. I am also hoping for a twist that is even better than what we could think of, but that creates really high expectations.

As for 'sacrificing humanity' though, I think it's safe to say you sacrifice your humanity entirely in control and synthesis. In destroy perhaps a little bit, and in refuse not at all.

The thing is though (and there's no way I can be sure about this, it's just a feeling)... I feel like the writers are trying to tell us that the morally right choice isn't necessarily always the best outcome.

We can choose to stick to our moral standards, but everyone will die.

Always wanting to save everyone will get everyone killed, because it is a weakness the Reapers will certainly exploit.

You could argue that this is better because we at least didn't betray our humanity, and that's fair enough.

On the other hand, you could just as well say that Shepard damns the entire galaxy, just because of his own strict moral standards. Not willing to make sacrifices damns everybody.
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Post by BleedingUranium Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:40 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I simply don't see how sacrificing the Geth is sacrificing their freedom.

You're not selling them into slavery, they're killed. (If taken literally)

And then you argue that it's somehow better if we refuse, because then we'll all die free....

How do we die free in refuse, but do the Geth not die free in destroy?

It's either:

- Synthetics die

or

- Everyone dies

Not to mention that you're still relying on someone else to do the dirty work of using the crucible to destroy the Reapers.

The act of refusal doesn't stop the Reapers. In fact it only delays the Reapers' destruction. It seems like hypocrisy, really. Refusing to fire a gun, but then giving it to someone else, so he can finish the job for you, and you can say you didn't kill anybody.

I agree with all of the above.

The Geth are soldiers. It's in a soldier's job description that they are willing to die if their superior deems it necessary, just like how Hackett sacrificed the entire Second Fleet so the Third and Fifth could escape.

Just like Shepard says to James, there isn't a single N7 that hasn't sacrificed either themselves or their men at some point. Every. Single. Person that has the N7 designation has sent some of their men to their death on at least one occasion.

Refuse isn't one of those hard choices because you're not sacrificing, you're just letting everyone die. Sacrificing implies a near-immediate result, a goal. It's a trade off, like Virmire. Refuse is not evacuating at all, and letting the Normandy and everyone on it get nuked because you don't want to make the call that gets one of your crew killed. Besides, there is no reason to think anyone else could stop Saren and Sovereign, just like there is no reason to think there's any other way to kill the Reapers at the end of ME3.
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Post by DoomsdayDevice Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:10 pm

BleedingUranium wrote:there is no reason to think there's any other way to kill the Reapers at the end of ME3.

Yeah, this. It's a huge gamble.
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Post by BleedingUranium Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:59 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
BleedingUranium wrote:there is no reason to think there's any other way to kill the Reapers at the end of ME3.

Yeah, this. It's a huge gamble.

And before anyone tries to counter this, the fleets attacking Earth was almost exactly the same as the march on the Black Gate at the end of Return Of The King: Aragorn, Gandalf, and everyone else there had zero chance of coming out of that battle victorious, but it was merely a distraction for Frodo destroying the Ring/activating the Crucible.
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Post by Restrider Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:24 pm

BleedingUranium wrote:
Refuse isn't one of those hard choices because you're not sacrificing, you're just letting everyone die. Sacrificing implies a near-immediate result, a goal. It's a trade off, like Virmire. Refuse is not evacuating at all, and letting the Normandy and everyone on it get nuked because you don't want to make the call that gets one of your crew killed. Besides, there is no reason to think anyone else could stop Saren and Sovereign, just like there is no reason to think there's any other way to kill the Reapers at the end of ME3.
Personally I think this is a typical misconception. I know many here see a Refuser Shepard as some sort of indecisive procrastinator who is stunned by the choices the Guardian offers you. But I think that is not the case.
I would even go that far to say that Destroy is an easier choice than Refuse. Every Shepard knows how dire the situation looks like (no conventional victory is possible) and is aware that the Crucible seems to be the last hope to a successful outcome of the war.
But to choose a path of self-determinism and defiance, knowing what you face and the odds of survival, seems to me the hardest decision of all.

I am by no means saying that Destroy is a trap or a wrong choice, I just think that this common image of a Refuse Shepard is just not accurate.
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Post by dorktainian Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:59 pm

refusal is the second best ending as it stands at the moment. it is the one of self determination. the one of 'up yours f..ker'. the one of 'are those the only choices you are going to give us? your choices?'

i can understand how actually refusal could work, but i also understand that maybe we havent even seen what the reapers can do yet and we'd be boned.

shepards speech is great tho. also because the camera leaves shepard stranded on the citadel we dont know exactly what happens next do we? we assume everyone dies.

i would love refuse to be a 'way out' of the conflict but i just dont see it (unless its all in shepards head)
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Post by Cyberfrog Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:11 pm

Literal is always a gamble, isn't it?

Control - Attempted in EVERY cycle by AN INDOCTRINATED FACTION. Never works.
Synthesis - Not sure how a solution that is "ideal" to the likes of you would be good news for us.
Destroy - Can you be certain that the "Catalyst" is full of shit?
Refuse - Can you really "find another way"?


I'm actually open to Destroy being another "indoctrinated" ending. Say refuse is "not indoctinated, but useless to the Reapers" (so they just kill you). Destroy could be "resisting, but potentially useful" (kind of like TIM).

Would need more content, because it's not a particularly satisfying interpretation (to put it mildly).
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The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse - Page 7 Empty Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:38 am

Many people argue that Destroy cannot be controlled by the Reapers because it is Shepard's default resolve, but this is wrong because if you pick Refuse the Catalyst takes away your access to even Destroy. Which means he DOES have control. In regard to Refuse, since he CAN take the ramp away... why doesn't he stop Shepard from choosing Destroy? He does not object to it, he is neutral to it even more so than Control, he does not stop you even though he can? The only option he cannot take away, is in fact Refuse.

I was watching some One Piece today, which is an anime. A character on there made a great point: "There's no way the enemy would ignore the only opening! It's definitely a trap!"

Destroy is allegedly(I want to emphasize the word allegedly) the only option to destroy the Reapers. There is no way the Reapers would ignore the alleged only way to destroy them, so sorry if my TRAP sensors are tingling. Destroy is exactly the mindset needed to twist Shepard's resolve, because if Destroy is most important no matter the cost... then that means you would be willing to follow the Reapers, as long as you believed it will lead to their destruction.

This is exactly what happened with TIM. Control was not actually his resolve, because he only wanted to advance humanity and protect humanity... for the sake of doing exactly those things. At the end of the game, he has given up Humanity in order to control the Reapers. He has been twisted into putting Control before Humanity, which is actually betraying his resolve. Otherwise he wouldn't be indoctrinated, he would've just been evil.

What is most important.... shooting the gun, or the reason behind shooting the gun? TIM chose shooting the gun as most important and it is exactly why he is indoctrinated. Destroy also says that shooting the gun is most important. The gun is not your resolve, your reason for using it is your resolve. TIM's resolve is protecting Humanity, controlling the Reapers is his gun... the exact moment he thought the gun was the most important, he aimed it directly at his resolve and pulled the trigger.

"damning the galaxy"... who can find fault in that? It'd be wrong for him to kill the Geth like that, it's all the same. The only thing to tip it either way IS that we die with our humanity. That is the last thing to tip it in either direction, and it tips it away from Destroy as far as I can tell. Now this is in my opinion too of course, we could all be wrong. But as it stands there IS way more things going AGAINST Destroy than there is going against Refuse.
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Post by BleedingUranium Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:54 am

No, Destroy cannot be indoctrination, it is literally impossible.
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Post by richie21 Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:08 pm

BleedingUranium wrote:No, Destroy cannot be indoctrination, it is literally impossible.

in the first endings no because the Reaper warlord was lying about synthetics dying. Edy was still alive. but EC they decided they'd make the kid the protagonist afterall rather than IT because refuse doesn't work.

I think destroy is like Kenson's indoctrination you believe the Reapers are letting some life continue, it's the slowest one but still indoctrination, but not really since EC confirms literal ending not IT.
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Post by BleedingUranium Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:21 pm

richie21 wrote:in the first endings no because the Reaper warlord was lying about synthetics dying. Edy was still alive. but EC they decided they'd make the kid the protagonist afterall rather than IT because refuse doesn't work.

I think destroy is like Kenson's indoctrination you believe the Reapers are letting some life continue, it's the slowest one but still indoctrination,

No.

but not really since EC confirms literal ending not IT.

No.
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Post by Restrider Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:31 pm

Though I agree on the most part with your assertions here, Blur, I strongly recommend that you elaborate them more, instead of resorting to a typical literalistic way of debating things.
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Post by BleedingUranium Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:48 pm

Restrider wrote:Though I agree on the most part with your assertions here, Blur, I strongly recommend that you elaborate them more, instead of resorting to a typical literalistic way of debating things.

I usually do, but then I saw the "EC disproved IT" bit.

While I certainly think Refuse could be a way (probably worse) to win, Destroy cannot be a bad ending in IT. In IT, the choices aren't really there, they're not physical, they're metaphors for the different goals Shepard can have. Destroy is "I want to kill the Reapers, no matter the sacrifices required". The fact that the goal involves, and actually hinges on, the Reapers dying is why it can't be indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination causes you to agree with some goal the Reapers want, but unless a goal of the Reapers is to kill all Reapers, it can't be indoctrination.

In other interpretations Destroy could be a trap, like the Deception Theory and similar, but not in IT. It goes against the fundamentals of how IT works.
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