The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

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What is your opinion about Refuse and the possibilities with IT (multiple votes possible)?

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Total Votes : 137

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:07 am

BleedingUranium wrote:
Restrider wrote:Though I agree on the most part with your assertions here, Blur, I strongly recommend that you elaborate them more, instead of resorting to a typical literalistic way of debating things.

I usually do, but then I saw the "EC disproved IT" bit.

While I certainly think Refuse could be a way (probably worse) to win, Destroy cannot be a bad ending in IT. In IT, the choices aren't really there, they're not physical, they're metaphors for the different goals Shepard can have. Destroy is "I want to kill the Reapers, no matter the sacrifices required". The fact that the goal involves, and actually hinges on, the Reapers dying is why it can't be indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination causes you to agree with some goal the Reapers want, but unless a goal of the Reapers is to kill all Reapers, it can't be indoctrination.

In other interpretations Destroy could be a trap, like the Deception Theory and similar, but not in IT. It goes against the fundamentals of how IT works.

Exactly, we're talking classic IT here.

As far as refuse goes, I am always reminded of Javik:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence is your answer."

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Post by Restrider on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:14 am

BleedingUranium wrote:
Restrider wrote:Though I agree on the most part with your assertions here, Blur, I strongly recommend that you elaborate them more, instead of resorting to a typical literalistic way of debating things.

I usually do, but then I saw the "EC disproved IT" bit.
Okay, I can understand how that can cause some heavy BSN flashbacks.


While I certainly think Refuse could be a way (probably worse) to win, Destroy cannot be a bad ending in IT. In IT, the choices aren't really there, they're not physical, they're metaphors for the different goals Shepard can have. Destroy is "I want to kill the Reapers, no matter the sacrifices required". The fact that the goal involves, and actually hinges on, the Reapers dying is why it can't be indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination causes you to agree with some goal the Reapers want, but unless a goal of the Reapers is to kill all Reapers, it can't be indoctrination.

I agree with your stance.
Especially the "I know you thought about destroying us"-line and the Breath Scene label Destroy for me as a good ending.

However, I can see where the other people are coming from.
The main reason to suspect that there is something wrong with Destroy is to see Destroy as a choice, where you indirectly agree that the conflict "Synthetics vs Organics" is actually a problem that has to be solved by the destruction of one part.
The consequence of this would be that there were no legit endings in the original version. But I think this is not impossible, since in such a scenario no one would be right or wrong (depending on your ending choice) and it was planned to release the real ending later. Refuse would then be the only legit ending, which is still not completed yet.
And the argument that Destroy is always there is also twofold. Since Destroy is not always there (lowEMS with saved Collector Base only allows Control), this only shows that Destroy is not a universal alignment, every Shepard has. Refuse however, is always present in the EC.

Now, as I said above, the Breath Scene and all the other hints throughout the game convince me that Destroy is probably not a trap.

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Post by dorktainian on Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:22 pm

who knows? only Bioware really knows.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:16 pm

Restrider wrote:And the argument that Destroy is always there is also twofold. Since Destroy is not always there (lowEMS with saved Collector Base only allows Control), this only shows that Destroy is not a universal alignment, every Shepard has. Refuse however, is always present in the EC.

I see what you're saying, refuse is always there. But the fact that you have only control available in low EMS if you saved the Collector base, makes perfect sense. That kind of Shepard doesn't want to destroy the Reapers, he wants to harness their power. Suddenly, the final decision in ME2 becomes very important.

But the point of refuse always being there is that even failsheps, who did nothing to build up EMS, could still win the game by picking refuse. Doesn't seem right. Unless of course, the conditions under post-refuse change depending on EMS.

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Post by dorktainian on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:49 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Restrider wrote:And the argument that Destroy is always there is also twofold. Since Destroy is not always there (lowEMS with saved Collector Base only allows Control), this only shows that Destroy is not a universal alignment, every Shepard has. Refuse however, is always present in the EC.

I see what you're saying, refuse is always there. But the fact that you have only control available in low EMS if you saved the Collector base, makes perfect sense. That kind of Shepard doesn't want to destroy the Reapers, he wants to harness their power. Suddenly, the final decision in ME2 becomes very important.

But the point of refuse always being there is that even failsheps, who did nothing to build up EMS, could still win the game by picking refuse. Doesn't seem right. Unless of course, the conditions under post-refuse change depending on EMS.

dont forget there is a dlc coming up that could alter this as well. I remember suggesting the daft idea on BSN that actually there could be a 4th valid ending. One which would possibly make the war 'winnable'. The key was not to choose. although wether or not it would work is another question.

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Post by Restrider on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:57 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

But the point of refuse always being there is that even failsheps, who did nothing to build up EMS, could still win the game by picking refuse. Doesn't seem right. Unless of course, the conditions under post-refuse change depending on EMS.
If there is additional content, I would assume that Refuse is going to have different levels of success depending on your EMS (=willpower).
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Post by richie21 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:31 pm

okay first, Bioware can't bull**** us that both literal and IT are true, they're not. it's one or the other, period. EC all but confirmed literal, and did some half-ass IT pandering but that's it.

IT or not the catalyst leaves the cruicble on and wants you to choose something that matches his logic and yells at you for trying to resist. even in destroy you'd have to believe the Reapers are letting you win and become the true hero of the game and let us live which would be like Kenson's indoctrination.

it doesn't make sense after EC. it did before because you realize he was lying because Edy is still alive but now that isn't true anymore. it only makes sense in literal now. Bioware decided to make the Reaper warlord the new protagonist instead of Shepard and whatever else there artistic bullcrap is.
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Post by BleedingUranium on Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:31 pm

Restrider wrote:The main reason to suspect that there is something wrong with Destroy is to see Destroy as a choice, where you indirectly agree that the conflict "Synthetics vs Organics" is actually a problem that has to be solved by the destruction of one part.

Whether or not Shepard believes it's a problem in picking Destroy can be debated, but either way, he decides that he doesn't care that the "chaos" might come back, and that we'll make our own path, whatever happens.
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Post by Restrider on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:51 pm

BleedingUranium wrote:
Restrider wrote:The main reason to suspect that there is something wrong with Destroy is to see Destroy as a choice, where you indirectly agree that the conflict "Synthetics vs Organics" is actually a problem that has to be solved by the destruction of one part.

Whether or not Shepard believes it's a problem in picking Destroy can be debated, but either way, he decides that he doesn't care that the "chaos" might come back, and that we'll make our own path, whatever happens.
Good point.
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Post by Terramine on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:09 am

BleedingUranium wrote:
Restrider wrote:Though I agree on the most part with your assertions here, Blur, I strongly recommend that you elaborate them more, instead of resorting to a typical literalistic way of debating things.

I usually do, but then I saw the "EC disproved IT" bit.

While I certainly think Refuse could be a way (probably worse) to win, Destroy cannot be a bad ending in IT. In IT, the choices aren't really there, they're not physical, they're metaphors for the different goals Shepard can have. Destroy is "I want to kill the Reapers, no matter the sacrifices required". The fact that the goal involves, and actually hinges on, the Reapers dying is why it can't be indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination causes you to agree with some goal the Reapers want, but unless a goal of the Reapers is to kill all Reapers, it can't be indoctrination.

In other interpretations Destroy could be a trap, like the Deception Theory and similar, but not in IT. It goes against the fundamentals of how IT works.
"Destroy is "I want to kill the Reapers, no matter the sacrifices required". The fact that the goal involves, and actually hinges on, the Reapers dying is why it can't be indoctrination."

Oh really? NO MATTER THE COST? Like say, kill all organics? Controlling the Reapers may tolerate their existence, but by default it should be in conflict with their goals... because the motivation behind it, is to stop them and prevent their goal.

So you are wrong, Destroy can be an indoctrination ending as long as you believe your actions will lead to destroying the Reapers. That even means you'd be willing to HELP the Reapers, as long as you think it will lead to their destruction. Either you think you are tricking THEM, or something else. But ultimately you could be full blown indoctrinated and yet have destroying the Reapers on your mind.

The fact that it makes you accept the premise "AT ANY COST" says it all. There is 1 thing you CANNOT sacrifice, and that's your REASON for doing what you do in the first place. TIM is a control type of guy, but only because he is pro-Human and wants to protect Humanity. This was twisted around, he is willing to sacrifice Humanity if it means he can control the Reapers. Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers to protect everyone's freedom, Destroy twists that around so ANY COST is worth it... even freedom.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:22 am

IronicParticle wrote:
BleedingUranium wrote:
Restrider wrote:Though I agree on the most part with your assertions here, Blur, I strongly recommend that you elaborate them more, instead of resorting to a typical literalistic way of debating things.

I usually do, but then I saw the "EC disproved IT" bit.

While I certainly think Refuse could be a way (probably worse) to win, Destroy cannot be a bad ending in IT. In IT, the choices aren't really there, they're not physical, they're metaphors for the different goals Shepard can have. Destroy is "I want to kill the Reapers, no matter the sacrifices required". The fact that the goal involves, and actually hinges on, the Reapers dying is why it can't be indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination causes you to agree with some goal the Reapers want, but unless a goal of the Reapers is to kill all Reapers, it can't be indoctrination.

In other interpretations Destroy could be a trap, like the Deception Theory and similar, but not in IT. It goes against the fundamentals of how IT works.
"Destroy is "I want to kill the Reapers, no matter the sacrifices required". The fact that the goal involves, and actually hinges on, the Reapers dying is why it can't be indoctrination."

Oh really? NO MATTER THE COST? Like say, kill all organics? Controlling the Reapers may tolerate their existence, but by default it should be in conflict with their goals... because the motivation behind it, is to stop them and prevent their goal.

So you are wrong, Destroy can be an indoctrination ending as long as you believe your actions will lead to destroying the Reapers. That even means you'd be willing to HELP the Reapers, as long as you think it will lead to their destruction. Either you think you are tricking THEM, or something else. But ultimately you could be full blown indoctrinated and yet have destroying the Reapers on your mind.

The fact that it makes you accept the premise "AT ANY COST" says it all. There is 1 thing you CANNOT sacrifice, and that's your REASON for doing what you do in the first place. TIM is a control type of guy, but only because he is pro-Human and wants to protect Humanity. This was twisted around, he is willing to sacrifice Humanity if it means he can control the Reapers. Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers to protect everyone's freedom, Destroy twists that around so ANY COST is worth it... even freedom.

No... you don't understand. TIM and Saren didn't get indoctrinated by wanting to destroy the Reapers. In fact, both of them openly oppose the idea of destroying the Reapers, Saren because he believes working with them is the only way, TIM because he thinks it's better to harness the Reapers' power for ourselves.

The important part of indoctrination is that it aligns your goals with that of the enemy. In control and synthesis, you allow the Reapers to exist, you accept the problem as it is explained by the catalyst, and agree with him that it needs a permanent solution.

In destroy, you don't align your goals with the Reapers. The Reapers don't want to be destroyed. It is not their goal. It is yours. In fact, you even reject the idea that a permanent solution is required and you reject the assertion that "the chaos will come back". You accept that there will be conflict between species (there always has been - even between organics), but that we need to achieve peace and understanding on our own terms.

That is the big difference: In control and synthesis you acknowledge the problem and accept a 'permanent solution', but most importantly, you think the Reapers should be allowed to exist.

There is nothing in destroy that aligns with the goals of the Reapers. And that is why it can't be indoctrination.

You are focusing on the cost, and that is exactly how Reapers try to manipulate humans, because "humans want to save everyone".

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Post by Charlie Sheen on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:33 am

If destroying the Reapers meant wiping out much or most of the current cycle, if it was necessary. that is still what should be done, to save the galaxy for future generations. If the Reapers aren't destroyed, everyone will be wiped out anyway - and worse.

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Post by Terramine on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:52 pm

"harness the Reapers' power for ourselves." And in what point in that, is there wiggle room for the Reaper's goals to succeed? There isn't. the cycle ends the moment somebody controls them successfully... you know, IF you can control them successfully. I actually believe controlling the Reapers could easily end up being an ending after Shepard wakes up, but it would likely be depicted as evil or whatever.

You guys keep ignoring, that there is a loophole here. It's as simple as, as long as you think you are only allowing them to exist TEMPORARILY. Destroy says "no matter the cost", that even means if you have to help the Reapers TEMPORARILY to move your plan into motion so you can destroy the Reapers. TIM DID think he was going to stop the cycle, even when he was indoctrinated. That's the part you are ignoring the most, he thought it would stop them. He thought that if he played friendly long enough, he'd get the opportunity to control them... stopping the cycle and advancing Humanity.

Just as it's possible for someone to be willing to play friendly long enough, until you get the opportunity to Destroy them. As long as the END GOAL is destruction, you are willing to do ANYTHING to get to that end goal.

Say it with me now:

-Any cost to reach the end goal.
-Helping the Reapers temporarily will lead to you getting what you need to reach your end goal. So it's part of the "cost".
-You are indoctrinated.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:31 am

IronicParticle wrote:"harness the Reapers' power for ourselves." And in what point in that, is there wiggle room for the Reaper's goals to succeed? There isn't. the cycle ends the moment somebody controls them successfully... you know, IF you can control them successfully. I actually believe controlling the Reapers could easily end up being an ending after Shepard wakes up, but it would likely be depicted as evil or whatever.

I absolutely do not believe, not even for a split second, that it is possible to control the Reapers. The idea is laughable to me. It's the obvious literary cliché (a good one though) of those who wish to control, end up being controlled/enslaved/screwed. (See Project Overlord, for one)

IronicParticle wrote:You guys keep ignoring, that there is a loophole here. It's as simple as, as long as you think you are only allowing them to exist TEMPORARILY. Destroy says "no matter the cost", that even means if you have to help the Reapers TEMPORARILY to move your plan into motion so you can destroy the Reapers. TIM DID think he was going to stop the cycle, even when he was indoctrinated. That's the part you are ignoring the most, he thought it would stop them. He thought that if he played friendly long enough, he'd get the opportunity to control them... stopping the cycle and advancing Humanity.

Just as it's possible for someone to be willing to play friendly long enough, until you get the opportunity to Destroy them. As long as the END GOAL is destruction, you are willing to do ANYTHING to get to that end goal.

Say it with me now:

-Any cost to reach the end goal.
-Helping the Reapers temporarily will lead to you getting what you need to reach your end goal. So it's part of the "cost".
-You are indoctrinated.

How exactly is wanting to destroy the Reapers temporarily helping them?

Again: you do not align your goals with the Reapers in destroy. Do they want all synthetics destroyed? No. Do they want to be destroyed themselves? No.

Also, arguing against destroy, saying it gets you indoctrinated? Really now? Ironically, the only other people I know of that argue exactly that same point are some of the most fanatic literalist synthesizers back on the BSN pacified neighbourhoods.

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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:34 am

@IronicParticle
But at no point does Destroy even temporarily help the Reapers. If true, it kills all synthetic life in the galaxy. The reapers want to preserve life, not destroy it. And your argument goes against Refuse too. In Refuse, you are basically giving the Reapers a fair fight, which Shepard, Catalyst, and everyone knows will result in the Reapers being victorious because as the game has hammered into us, "We can't defeat the Reapers conventionally." So giving them that chance is permanently, not temporarily, helping the Reapers continue their purpose.
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Post by Terramine on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:07 am

@DD: I agree for the most part, but then again it could still be possible... under the circumstances that it be rendered evil. Say it requires some serious fucked up stuff, like possibly committing an act that is a bigger abomination than even what it takes to make a Reaper. Some serious evil stuff, something that would make Cthulhu suck his thumb and cry for mommy to change his diaper. Otherwise, I am in total agreement, Control is not something that even seems possible. So all I am saying, if it was to EVER be possible EVER, it'd require some mad evil.

I'm not arguing against destroying the Reapers, there is a difference between Destroy and destroy... is there not? One is a general action, and one is referring a specific ending to a specific game by the name of Mass Effect 3

"How exactly is wanting to destroy the Reapers temporarily helping them?"

No, you temporarily help them... to get to the point where you can destroy them. Just like TIM was stupid enough to think that by helping the Reapers, it would lead to him controlling them. If you think it's sounds absurd, that's because it is, that's why TIM was batshit insane himself.

AT ANY COST. Are you saying, there is a limit to cost now? Cause I could've sworn your very own argument was that it was a resolve of limitless cost? Are you trying to pull a double standard here?

@Selim: But that's irrelevant, this is a test of resolve correct? So the moment Shepard accepts ANY COST... BAM indoctrinated. TIM went through this test too, odds are... yet he didn't suddenly snap out of the indoctrination going "WAIT A MINUTE! I still don't have control!".

Here's how it would work if Destroy is an indoc ending: Once out of the dream, Shepard will wake up and not remember anything... the only thing that will be different, is his resolve. His resolve is now ANY cost, so if the Reapers whisper in the back of Shepard's mind that killing all organics will actually SOMEHOW result in the destruction of the Reapers... Shepard won't think logically, indoctrinated people don't think logically, their fueled purely by twisted ambition. If he thinks ANY COST will get him what he wants, he will be willing to do anything as long "allegedly" it will get him what he wants.

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Post by Terramine on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:16 am

In fact, studies have been done on Subliminal messages. There is many rumors that it can be used for mind control, but due to rigorous testing scientists have proven it can ONLY cause people to do what they already WANT to do. So say you are hungry, and a food advertisement has subliminal messages in it... THEN it potentially could push you past the process of thinking about going to get something to eat, and right into the decision to actually get something to eat.

So this is why the Reapers need to change your resolve, so their suggestions will actually push you to do what they suggest.

"Shepard, if you end this cycle by giving into the Reapers *blah* *blah* *blah* the reapers will be destroyed!" BAM Shepard will then go on to help the Reapers.

You assume that just because destroying the Reapers is involved, that Shepard will go to actually destroy the Reapers when he wakes up. But reality is, HOW he achieves destroy with the mindset of AT ANY COST means that if it were at all possible to destroy the Reapers by helping them... you'd be willing to do it. That's what limitless cost means, no logic needed... just subliminal messages.


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Post by Terramine on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:21 am

Remember, I'm a Destroyer too because everything I am saying is speculation. Without any real evidence I have no reason to think it's definitely the case.

I'm just talking within the realm of possibility, it's possible Destroy leads to indoctrination. Also for future reference, in regards to what DD said about control... it's not just controllers who end up indoctrinated when they try control, it's when ANYBODY DOES ANYTHING IN OPPOSITION! There is NOBODY immune, NOBODY who has broken from it... regardless of willpower, resolve, gender, race, age, personality, etc.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:59 am

IronicParticle wrote:"How exactly is wanting to destroy the Reapers temporarily helping them?"

No, you temporarily help them... to get to the point where you can destroy them.

I really don't follow, sorry. I absolutely don't see how shooting that tube to wipe out all synthetics including the Reapers is helping them.

Can you explain it again?

IronicParticle wrote:AT ANY COST. Are you saying, there is a limit to cost now? Cause I could've sworn your very own argument was that it was a resolve of limitless cost? Are you trying to pull a double standard here?

Well, you'd be wrong because it was Blur who said that, not me. I simply chimed in. That said, I completely agree with Blur. No cost is too great to destroy the Reapers. It sounds sick, I know, but it's true. If you had to sacrifice all civilizations of the galaxy to rid it of the Reapers once and for all, then you'd have no choice. Because if you don't rid the galaxy of the Reapers, all life in the galaxy will be doomed, not just now, but forever. The reapers will just kill them all instead of you. It would be absolutely horrible, but if it was the only way, then it would be the only way.

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Post by BleedingUranium on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:48 am

Unless destroying the Reapers is a goal the Reapers have, Destroy can't be indoctrination.

Yes, if killing the Reapers meant all life in the galaxy would die (which doesn't make sense, and couldn't happen), I'd still do it. Because it's not just about those alive now, it's about all those who will ever live. The next cycle, and the next, and the the hundreds of thousands after that.

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 die so 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 live. Both now, and for the future.
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Post by AxStapleton on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:43 pm

IronicParticle wrote:Remember, I'm a Destroyer too because everything I am saying is speculation. Without any real evidence I have no reason to think it's definitely the case.

I'm just talking within the realm of possibility, it's possible Destroy leads to indoctrination. Also for future reference, in regards to what DD said about control... it's not just controllers who end up indoctrinated when they try control, it's when ANYBODY DOES ANYTHING IN OPPOSITION! There is NOBODY immune, NOBODY who has broken from it... regardless of willpower, resolve, gender, race, age, personality, etc.

Benezia broke from it very temporarily and that proved vital in actually getting to Ilos and reaching the Citadel to stop Sovereign. Shepard may not even break from it completely, but long enough to actually do something about it.

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Post by Restrider on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:29 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Well, you'd be wrong because it was Blur who said that, not me. I simply chimed in. That said, I completely agree with Blur. No cost is too great to destroy the Reapers. It sounds sick, I know, but it's true. If you had to sacrifice all civilizations of the galaxy to rid it of the Reapers once and for all, then you'd have no choice. Because if you don't rid the galaxy of the Reapers, all life in the galaxy will be doomed, not just now, but forever. The reapers will just kill them all instead of you. It would be absolutely horrible, but if it was the only way, then it would be the only way.

While I -- as IronicParticle himself also stated a few times -- believe that this discussion about Destroy leading to be indoctrinated is mere speculation and academic, you are proving his line of thought with this statement.

To begin, let us look at what presumably happened with TIM:

1) TIM's main goal was to ensure humanity's prolonged existence and dominance in the galaxy.
2) To get 1) he thought that controlling the Reapers might be the best option to achieve it.
3) Reapers step in, exploit TIM's goals and indoctrinate TIM.
4) TIM starts to believe that achieving 2) while sacrificing humanity is a good idea.

Now the same with a Destroy-Shepard:

1) Shepard's main goal is to end the harvest of organic civilizations.
2) To get to 1) Shepard obviously thinks that destroying the Reapers is the best option.
3) Reapers step in, exploit Shepard's goals and indoctrinate Shepard.
4) Shepard starts to believe that achieving 2) while sacrificing every organic is a good idea.

The twisted logic of an indoctrinated Destroy-Shepard would dictate that in order to destroy the Reapers, Shepard has -- for instance -- to let the Reapers harvest every organic. Once the harvest is finished, the Reapers will of course not let themselves be destroyed, similar to TIM and his belief that he can control the Reapers. The important thing is not whether someone can destroy/control the Reapers, but if that person believes that destroying/controlling is possible while doing this and that, which actually helps the Reapers.

Again, this is mere speculation and an academic discussion, since the breath scene among other things sheds Destroy in a good light considering IT.
But I personally resent the usage of any absolute statements. For all we know, BW could've given us three choices in the original game that all end up in Shepard's indoctrination. If Refuse in this scenario is a way out, would also be pure speculation.
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:27 pm

Er, last time I looked the destroy option did not include letting the entire galaxy be harvested in order to destroy the Reapers. And if it did, it would obviously be fishy.

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Post by Andromidius on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:32 pm

Yeah, Destroy is not letting the Reapers harvest even one more person. Ever. Its an outright act of defiance and self-determination, even if it doesn't achieve the goals it sets out to do. Its a declaration that the Reapers will not be tolerated, bargined with or shown mercy to.

If anything, Destroy is a declaration of war. Previously all the galaxy was doing was defending itself. Now we're on the offensive, gloves off.
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Post by Restrider on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:35 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Er, last time I looked the destroy option did not include letting the entire galaxy be harvested in order to destroy the Reapers. And if it did, it would obviously be fishy.
Obviously I just illustrated how a Destroy-Shepard could turn out to be indoctrinated. What I posted are things that happen post-end.

And people argue that choosing Destroy is actually admitting that the Guardian's assertions about organic vs. synthetic conflict are true. But of course that's reducing Destroy too much, since antagonizing the Reapers and self-determinism -- though only for organics -- are themes that are more important in Destroy.
Anyway, I would like to discuss Refuse more than Destroy, since this discussion is rather moot at this point.
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