(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
I don't know what you mean by "good possibility"... because last I checked it was almost certain. Unless you're going to explain a shit ton of shit with "BAD RITEING". There are too many things that can only make sense if the crucible is a trap.windsurfing wrote:It's intriguing to see Mars is where it call began in terms of jump starting Humanity a few hundred years in terms of technology, Eezoo and everything else that followed.
It is also the place where the supposed anti-reaper doomsday weapons development data was stored.
Coming full circle? Maybe, then again maybe not.
There is a good possibility the so called crucible is nothing more than a Reaper creation designed to fool civilizations into spending vast amounts of resources while they reduce the attacks on actual Reaper forces when they come to the home worlds to reap. A sound strategy to divert crucial forces, energy and other resources effectively numbing the whole galaxy and there by preventing it from forming a more potent threat as one united group fighting to the common goal.
How did the data end up in Mars? Javik talks about indoctrinated traitors among Prothean higher ranks during the end days. The data stores could have been planted deliberately by such agents under Reaper direction. There could be more of such data caches elsewhere scattered throughout the galaxy. Provided all of this speculation on my part is true of course.
If any of this is true, knowing the reapers, even if for whatever reasons they have been defeated or reduced in numbers after the events of ME3, they will have some sort of redundancy in place to get back in force and retaliate. Even more so if this new game is all about "exploration" "new threats" or the feeling of being threatened in the vastness of space while you visit fascinating new worlds, it could be that you the new protagonist slowly realizes the existence of these redundancies in place through out the known and unknown parts of the galaxy.
It's definitely a red herring too. It's distracting the entire galaxy and subverting Shepard. It's the kind of plan I imagine them having for when they get thrown off to the point where they know this cycle is going to do serious damage to them. They probably planned it as soon as they knew the Protheans had blocked Plan A by funkin with the Keepers.
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Mars? A red herring? Ah ha. Ah ha ha ha. ...Ugh. It was funnier when it was just communism.
ZerebusPrime- Space Cow
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
I meant the crucible. But uh, since it all started with mars I mean... in fact, when we go there in ME3 it's completely out of the blue. Hackett randomly messages and sends us there to talk to Liara. So in that sense, I think overall, if the Crucible is a red herring then that means by extension anything that contributes to it is. That includes Shepard throughout the game contributing to this device.ZerebusPrime wrote:Mars? A red herring? Ah ha. Ah ha ha ha. ...Ugh. It was funnier when it was just communism.
I'm just saying, here you have this device that's out of the blue. Next thing you know, the ENTIRE GALACTIC FORCES INCLUDING SHEPARD IS DIVERTED. Do I need to quote the codex? Because last I check subverting to bring down nations and alliances and shit was THE point to indoctrination.
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
actually.. liara might not be there (on mars) for shepards benefit at all.
and... the crudible. lets get all out assets and throw them into something which seems simple to build, but nobody knows how it works or what it does, then mass all our military in one place in a fight against a massively superior foe, just to stick the crudible up the citadels ass and hope to fucking god something positive happens and we haven't just given the reapers their 'I WIN' button.
seems legit.
and... the crudible. lets get all out assets and throw them into something which seems simple to build, but nobody knows how it works or what it does, then mass all our military in one place in a fight against a massively superior foe, just to stick the crudible up the citadels ass and hope to fucking god something positive happens and we haven't just given the reapers their 'I WIN' button.
seems legit.
dorktainian- Sovereign
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Just a quick thought...
But what if Eva Coré didn't download something from the archives, but instead uploaded the Crucible plans?
Not sure if that's chronologically possible. I do remember Coré being inserted into the Mars facility as a mole, some time before the events of ME3. Don't know when Liara first found the Crucible plans, though.
It would explain why the plans are found specifically on Mars. Especially if the Crucible is indeed a Reaper trap.
But what if Eva Coré didn't download something from the archives, but instead uploaded the Crucible plans?
Not sure if that's chronologically possible. I do remember Coré being inserted into the Mars facility as a mole, some time before the events of ME3. Don't know when Liara first found the Crucible plans, though.
It would explain why the plans are found specifically on Mars. Especially if the Crucible is indeed a Reaper trap.
smash016- Scion
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
I am pretty sure Zerebus' little joke was simply in reference to the colour of the planet, so yes; we do go out of the blue and into the red. :PTerramine wrote:
I meant the crucible.
... in fact, when we go there in ME3 it's completely out of the blue.
@smash:
...as for evabot's late fiddling with the archives; that could easily be explained as a manouvre to impose an additional sense of urgency on Shepard and friends.
When you feel a stressful need to race Cerberus for the Krikkit One schematics, etc, you may not find as much time for critical thinking, and may possibly even take their wanting it as corroboration for it being "something worthwhile"...
jojon2se- Nemesis
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Ok, I've got something that's been on my mind since I first finished the Citadel DLC and just recently resurfaced after I finished reading Mass Effect Foundation 3.
What was Maya Brooks end goal? She left Cerberus, stole the Shepard clone, stole OG Shepard's identity for the clone, try to kill OG Shepard, and stole the Normandy. Let's say she succeeded in her plan, what then? Fight the Reapers herself with the clone or do something else entirely? I have understood just about every other plot point ever made in Mass Effect as a whole, but the purpose behind Maya's has always eluded me.
It honestly seemed like a half backed idea by Bioware that they've been trying to flesh out with the comics but at the end of it all I'm still left wondering "What the fuck were you planing on doing with the Normandy and a Shepard of your own?"
Does anyone have ANY idea what the fuck she was thinking?
What was Maya Brooks end goal? She left Cerberus, stole the Shepard clone, stole OG Shepard's identity for the clone, try to kill OG Shepard, and stole the Normandy. Let's say she succeeded in her plan, what then? Fight the Reapers herself with the clone or do something else entirely? I have understood just about every other plot point ever made in Mass Effect as a whole, but the purpose behind Maya's has always eluded me.
It honestly seemed like a half backed idea by Bioware that they've been trying to flesh out with the comics but at the end of it all I'm still left wondering "What the fuck were you planing on doing with the Normandy and a Shepard of your own?"
Does anyone have ANY idea what the fuck she was thinking?
OneWithTheAssassins- Geth Hunter
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Awesome BSN post:
"There is no ending, because the stupid kid keeps saying "Tell me another story about The Shepard." It's a never ending cycle of endings with no end."
"There is no ending, because the stupid kid keeps saying "Tell me another story about The Shepard." It's a never ending cycle of endings with no end."
Guest- Guest
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
SwobyJ wrote:Awesome BSN post:
"There is no ending, because the stupid kid keeps saying "Tell me another story about The Shepard." It's a never ending cycle of endings with no end."
exactly. there is no end. you always end up back on the normandy.
dorktainian- Sovereign
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Remember that Bioware tweet that brought that up?
There's no ending because nothing ends, or something like that. It was in a random context, but it seemed telling.
There's no ending because nothing ends, or something like that. It was in a random context, but it seemed telling.
DoomsdayDevice- Being of Light
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
DoomsdayDevice wrote:Remember that Bioware tweet that brought that up?
There's no ending because nothing ends, or something like that. It was in a random context, but it seemed telling.
almost as if the whole of the game after that point didn't really happen......
dorktainian- Sovereign
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
http://mass-screencap-effect.tumblr.com/post/104249154554
So I just saw this, didn’t get the chance to see it in game yet. But note that throughout the series there is not only a focus on indoctrination like abilities. But all this stuff about touch and shit. If what Javik is saying is true about Prothean females. It seems to me the galaxy has been evolving progressively so ALL have some sort of special ability.
Even if I don’t believe the Leviathans we see are real, I do believe they are the species whom created the Reapers and that it DID start with the fact that they had an indoctrination ability… and the reason for the Reaper’s rebellion, has been to perfect this ability.
Think about it. If their original purpose WAS originally to be peace keepers, but they ended up with twisted logic… their solution was probably learning from their creators. Their creators tried to control an entire galaxy, and so the Reapers saw that their “control” was flawed and blamed that. Logically they didn’t see the point to emotions and whatnot, because they hadn’t been taught that by their heartless creators. So their solution to the reoccurring conflict, is to PERFECT INDOCTRINATION.
I am not saying I believe the Catalyst or the Crucible are legit at all. I think the point is Shepard is that perfection. He/She unites EVERYBODY whether they’re Human… Krogan… Turian… and even synthetics like the Geth. He/She literally brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. He/She brokered peace between the Krogans and the Salarians as well the Turians. He/She has set genocides right, made people forgive each other for such. He’s/She’s made everyone learn to accept each other. Javik, the Protheans? Shepard made the Gods of his/her cycle learn the errors of their ways and to embrace a new way of thinking. Shepard has shattered conflicts and separations that have been 50,000 years in the making.
So I just saw this, didn’t get the chance to see it in game yet. But note that throughout the series there is not only a focus on indoctrination like abilities. But all this stuff about touch and shit. If what Javik is saying is true about Prothean females. It seems to me the galaxy has been evolving progressively so ALL have some sort of special ability.
Even if I don’t believe the Leviathans we see are real, I do believe they are the species whom created the Reapers and that it DID start with the fact that they had an indoctrination ability… and the reason for the Reaper’s rebellion, has been to perfect this ability.
Think about it. If their original purpose WAS originally to be peace keepers, but they ended up with twisted logic… their solution was probably learning from their creators. Their creators tried to control an entire galaxy, and so the Reapers saw that their “control” was flawed and blamed that. Logically they didn’t see the point to emotions and whatnot, because they hadn’t been taught that by their heartless creators. So their solution to the reoccurring conflict, is to PERFECT INDOCTRINATION.
I am not saying I believe the Catalyst or the Crucible are legit at all. I think the point is Shepard is that perfection. He/She unites EVERYBODY whether they’re Human… Krogan… Turian… and even synthetics like the Geth. He/She literally brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. He/She brokered peace between the Krogans and the Salarians as well the Turians. He/She has set genocides right, made people forgive each other for such. He’s/She’s made everyone learn to accept each other. Javik, the Protheans? Shepard made the Gods of his/her cycle learn the errors of their ways and to embrace a new way of thinking. Shepard has shattered conflicts and separations that have been 50,000 years in the making.
Last edited by Terramine on Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
If that doesn't constitute, as some fucking special ability that transcends the fact that he's/she's "just human". Then what the fuck would? Shepard is literally EVERYTHING THE REAPERS STRIVE TO BE. This is why he/she is above them, this is why just 1 soldier can whoop their collective ass. Because HE'S/SHE'S LITERALLY BETTER THAN THEM. EVEN BETTER THAN AN ENTIRE RACE OF MACHINE BEINGS WHOM HAVE LIVED EONS.
He/She is literally, the perfect peace maker.
He/She is literally, the perfect peace maker.
Last edited by Terramine on Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Shepard is the catalyst. This is so obvious, it's almost sad that people don't get it.
IN ORDER FOR THE REAPERS TO SUCCEED IN THEIR PLANS OF MASSIVE GALACTIC HARVESTING THEY MUST SACRIFICE THE CATALYST IN THEIR MASSIVE DE-EVOLUTIONARY DEVICE (THE CRUCIBLE).
When you apply the above knowledge to Shepard, The Reapers and the Mass Effect saga, things fall into place. Plot holes are filled and the truth becomes fully illuminated and brought to light.
IN ORDER FOR THE REAPERS TO SUCCEED IN THEIR PLANS OF MASSIVE GALACTIC HARVESTING THEY MUST SACRIFICE THE CATALYST IN THEIR MASSIVE DE-EVOLUTIONARY DEVICE (THE CRUCIBLE).
When you apply the above knowledge to Shepard, The Reapers and the Mass Effect saga, things fall into place. Plot holes are filled and the truth becomes fully illuminated and brought to light.
TurianRebel212- Banshee
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
That makes perfect sense. Especially when you look at what literally is going on... which is really, Shepard is talking to himself. The kid is projections of memory, Shepard's voice is a part of the kids voice. Either the kid aint really there, or it's all a dream. But either way, he's talking to a construct of his subconscious semi-forcefully generated by the Reapers. He's babbling to an hallucination, he's being told "im the catalyst" but what is really going on is "you're the catalyst and you gotta do this thing".
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Ignore this if you hate me talking about refuse so much, but I have some other ideas to add about this too. But I would love if someone would actually give this some consideration:
- About ending choice:
- My thing is, if Shepard is the catalyst... and the crucible definitely is a Reaper device crucial to the Reapers' plans. Then it begs the question, why are Destroy and Control there? Think about it. Why exactly... would they make it so each cycle "builds upon it"? Unless it's so the Reapers can take your most core values and positions, and twist them to support the Reapers? I'm telling you. If the device is crucial for their plans. Then the correct option is to not use it. When people point out that Refuse is in the EC? Well I have bad news for you. That's probably because the Reapers subvert Shepard. It's likely in that sense, the cycle has failed the test to see if they're worthy of becoming a Reaper. So maybe in his failure, Shepard realizes he's fallen so far into things. But manages to pull himself together enough to do what it takes to finish the Reapers off.
They were going to have Shepard blatantly turn to Reaper tech. They were blatantly going to have a confrontation from the LI, basically the LI being what Shepard was to Saren. But obviously this was going to ruin the subtlety. People would've KNOWN Shepard was indoctrinated. They wanted people to FIGURE IT OUT. To have the mindset required to overcome indoctrination.
In fact though, not only would NOT USING it be a blow to their plans. But remember the other time we did that? With the Citadel and the Keepers? It's what caused them to take such a serious blow this cycle. So it's possible their weakness, is the fact that WHEN that step is interrupted. WHEN the Test fails, it can actually potentially lead to their destruction.
Destroy would probably still be the best canon choice, because it might lead to that. Although I doubt it's not ending without Shepard's sacrifice. I swear sometimes y'all seem bent on Shepard being able to live after this is all over. Nop.Jpeg
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Exactly.
I mean, we never really stop to ask the most important question int the MEU.
Why does the entire galaxy seem to hinge on the actions of one person?
Shepard.
This whole thing is about Shepard. And that includes the reaper plan as well.
That's why Harbinger is at the beam.
That's why Harbinger lead the invasion of Earth.
That's why Harbinger is the oldest, wisest and most powerful Reaper.
That's Why Harbinger attacked the SR2
That's Why Harbinger sent the collectors to kill Shepard but.... PRESERVE his body, lol
That's Why Harbinger had the collectors build the human proto reaper that was.... Missing a KEY component.... A... CATALYST.
That's why ONLY Shepard can activate the control panel aboard the citadel at the end of ME3
That's why Shepard is the first organic to be "here"
That's why Shepard can choose.
Why??? Why??? WHY. Why can Shepard do all these things? Now.... You can just dismiss this as "Rule of Cool Dawg" And "Fantasy Power Trip bro" And "cause video games man"
or.... You can dig and look for certain patterns and see if things begin to show or lead to a certain path and outcome. And... Guess what. They do. It is not coincidence.
"Shepard, you do not comprehend your place in things"
"Shepard, you cannot escape your destiny"
Harbinger directs those things at Shepard and ONLY Shepard.
This entire thing is about Shepard.
I mean, we never really stop to ask the most important question int the MEU.
Why does the entire galaxy seem to hinge on the actions of one person?
Shepard.
This whole thing is about Shepard. And that includes the reaper plan as well.
That's why Harbinger is at the beam.
That's why Harbinger lead the invasion of Earth.
That's why Harbinger is the oldest, wisest and most powerful Reaper.
That's Why Harbinger attacked the SR2
That's Why Harbinger sent the collectors to kill Shepard but.... PRESERVE his body, lol
That's Why Harbinger had the collectors build the human proto reaper that was.... Missing a KEY component.... A... CATALYST.
That's why ONLY Shepard can activate the control panel aboard the citadel at the end of ME3
That's why Shepard is the first organic to be "here"
That's why Shepard can choose.
Why??? Why??? WHY. Why can Shepard do all these things? Now.... You can just dismiss this as "Rule of Cool Dawg" And "Fantasy Power Trip bro" And "cause video games man"
or.... You can dig and look for certain patterns and see if things begin to show or lead to a certain path and outcome. And... Guess what. They do. It is not coincidence.
"Shepard, you do not comprehend your place in things"
"Shepard, you cannot escape your destiny"
Harbinger directs those things at Shepard and ONLY Shepard.
This entire thing is about Shepard.
TurianRebel212- Banshee
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Please remember that the Reapers only start to directly target Shepard after he proves himself a threat by stopping the opening of the Citadel Relay and contributing to the Destruction of Sovereign, a feat probably not commited for many, many cycles.
This labels him a person of interest for the Reapers.
After he then brings down the Collectors he is an annoyance (assuming you do the Collectors before Arrival).
So yes it is all about Shepard, but in my eyes it is because Shepard made it so. The Reapers attention are on him because he is the one consistently slows them down.
I do believe that they want him as the center of the Human Reaper, but Shepard is also a symbol of the fight against the Reapers and its leader. Break the leader / symbol, break the galaxy. No wonder the Reapers are fixated on him.
This labels him a person of interest for the Reapers.
After he then brings down the Collectors he is an annoyance (assuming you do the Collectors before Arrival).
So yes it is all about Shepard, but in my eyes it is because Shepard made it so. The Reapers attention are on him because he is the one consistently slows them down.
I do believe that they want him as the center of the Human Reaper, but Shepard is also a symbol of the fight against the Reapers and its leader. Break the leader / symbol, break the galaxy. No wonder the Reapers are fixated on him.
Raistlin Majere- N7
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Well yes of course, but it's more than that. Him becoming a person of interest ties into the fact that he's everything they want to be. Even without some special ability, he is. He's a merging of fesh and steel, he unites everyone under his control. They consensually just give it to him. He is a Reaper's wet dreams.Raistlin Majere wrote:Please remember that the Reapers only start to directly target Shepard after he proves himself a threat by stopping the opening of the Citadel Relay and contributing to the Destruction of Sovereign, a feat probably not commited for many, many cycles.
This labels him a person of interest for the Reapers.
After he then brings down the Collectors he is an annoyance (assuming you do the Collectors before Arrival).
So yes it is all about Shepard, but in my eyes it is because Shepard made it so. The Reapers attention are on him because he is the one consistently slows them down.
I do believe that they want him as the center of the Human Reaper, but Shepard is also a symbol of the fight against the Reapers and its leader. Break the leader / symbol, break the galaxy. No wonder the Reapers are fixated on him.
It only makes sense though, that Shepard has some sort of ability BECAUSE he does everything they want to be. Maybe ok... maybe Bioware is saying that's EXACTLY what simply, human social interaction is. Is an ability like it. Which artistically would make sense, in terms of an artistic vision. If we take indoctrination for all it's symbolic value, and what the word means in real life. Then it all makes sense. In real life, indoctrination is brainwashing and whatnot. It's convincing someone to believe in lies. It's about control and power over the mind. It's weakness is genuine teaching and freedom of the mind. But it's weakness also reaches that which it strives to be.
Random sidenote: This makes me realize, and I know none of y'all know homestuck. But I'd actually say that Shepard's aspect is Blood, and the Reapers' is Breath.
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Shepard has a destiny. Harbinger tells him this. And everyone around Shepard can feel it.
Shepard is special. Shepard is an anomaly.
Shepard is AN AGENT OF CHANGE.
Shepard is the catalyst.
Shepard is special. Shepard is an anomaly.
Shepard is AN AGENT OF CHANGE.
Shepard is the catalyst.
TurianRebel212- Banshee
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
or maybe the reapers will store their collective consciousness within shepards mind now that he has freed them from their machine prisons by destroying their asses?
oh wait...
oh wait...
dorktainian- Sovereign
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
https://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t449-no-leviathan-you-are-the-reapers
I just discovered this topic. Really interesting read and many good observations from Rifneno and respondents.
I just discovered this topic. Really interesting read and many good observations from Rifneno and respondents.
smash016- Scion
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
Rifneno wrote:The codex is stupid. That weakness has not been fixed. The Reaepers just rarely make an organic avatar, and they release control before dying. Notice that Harbinger released the Collector General before the blast took him out. WoG later said that was because he'd have shared Sovereign's fate if he didn't. The weakness is still there, but it's not one that can be exploited to win the war.
What if, though... killing Harbinger specifically DID throw things out of whack? If Shepard becomes his Avatar, it's possible Shepard will sacrifice himself to take Harbinger out. This would fit the song that is intended for the ME4 credits, it would fit with what I've been talking about.
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
By the way, if the indoctrination theory reveal, ends with that song. I will forgive Bioware for everything and embrace them as the artistic GODS they are lmao
Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!
They released an end credits song for a game that no one knows anything about yet? o_0
How extremely premature.
Is that even legit?
The game (apparently) won't even be called Mass Effect "4".
How extremely premature.
Is that even legit?
The game (apparently) won't even be called Mass Effect "4".
DoomsdayDevice- Being of Light
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