So, when do you think the Hallucination starts? UPDATED WITH POLL

IronicParticle wrote:First off all the bodies are the same, and laziness is not a legit answer if we believe IT. Seriously, I hate when IT supporters hold views that contradict their own point of view. Bioware may have been pushed for time, but such an extreme level of laziness would be seen in many other ways. Yet the only possible examples, are actually what we consider evidence for IT not laziness.

You mean the bodies that before you get lasered you can't even make them out unless you zoom in with a sniper rifle? That's not being lazy.You have to admit, Bioware was rushed for time. They asked for another six months before release, but EA only gave them three. That doesn't mean they are lazy, just they did not have time to get everything done perfectly, and the pre-Harbinger bodies being different than the post-Harbinger bodies were low on the list since most people would never even notice.

I'd just like to note that a white halo has, in the past, always indicated a transistion OUT OF the dream (see Geth consensus and nightmares) or WITHIN the dream (Geth consensus) The transistion TO the dream has either been a loading screen (nightmares) or, well, no transistion, just real one moment not real the next (Geth consensus)

In other words, the fact that a white halo is seen when Harby's laser hits you is proof that the dream has already begun.

Again, white halos are for transitions WITHIN and OUT OF dreams. Loading screens or no transition is for INTO dreams.

Sorry if I sound a little angry, I feel like I've already pointed this out a hundred times. :)

Lokanaiya wrote:I'd just like to note that a white halo has, in the past, always indicated a transistion OUT OF the dream (see Geth consensus and nightmares) or WITHIN the dream (Geth consensus) The transistion TO the dream has either been a loading screen (nightmares) or, well, no transistion, just real one moment not real the next (Geth consensus)

In other words, the fact that a white halo is seen when Harby's laser hits you is proof that the dream has already begun.

Again, white halos are for transitions WITHIN and OUT OF dreams. Loading screens or no transition is for INTO dreams.

Sorry if I sound a little angry, I feel like I've already pointed this out a hundred times. :)

Fair enough but all other dreams begin in some fairly blatant place. Cut from end of mission to an eerie and deathly forest with background noise.

I still don't see how a dream can start during a sequence with the general appearance, setting etc. unchanged.

Due to the Tuchanka moment, I can't see it possibly starting at the crash. If you're right it would start at Cronos or some defined part of Earth, like at the beginning, or maybe when your shuttle gets shot down.

IMO Mako crash to Blast --> Heavy hallucination

But the 'Citadel Beam Up' is fake, and Shepard collapsed in rubble. Everything in the Citadel onward is 100% Shepard dying and asleep.

I'm still torn between Harbinger's Beam and Mako Crash. But on reflection, Mako Crash makes more sense.

1/ The bodies are already there (though hard to see)
2/ Only Harbinger shows up, despite multiple Reapers heading towards London
3/ The suicidal charge makes no sense at all
4/ ...Normandy Pickup...

Though there's reason to think it may have also started earlier, this is when things get really weird.

Andromidius wrote:I'm still torn between Harbinger's Beam and Mako Crash. But on reflection, Mako Crash makes more sense.

1/ The bodies are already there (though hard to see)
2/ Only Harbinger shows up, despite multiple Reapers heading towards London
3/ The suicidal charge makes no sense at all
4/ ...Normandy Pickup...

Though there's reason to think it may have also started earlier, this is when things get really weird.

1. The Reapers are using the beam to transport humans, alive and dead, to the Citadel.
2. Not all the Reapers will guard the beam. They are off eliminating the rest of Hammer.
3. There is no cover to speak in order to sneak by Harbinger, so your best bet is to run and hope you make it.
4. The Normandy was part of a squadrom of ships sent to deal with, or at least distract, the Reapers who went to Earth in order to give Hammer a fighting chance.

Selim Bradley wrote:
1. The Reapers are using the beam to transport humans, alive and dead, to the Citadel.
2. Not all the Reapers will guard the beam. They are off eliminating the rest of Hammer.
3. There is no cover to speak in order to sneak by Harbinger, so your best bet is to run and hope you make it.
4. The Normandy was part of a squadrom of ships sent to deal with, or at least distract, the Reapers who went to Earth in order to give Hammer a fighting chance.

1/ Bullshit. They are still 2D sprites of Kaiden and Ashley
2/ Bullshit. Hammer is focused around the Beam, and is being annihilated. Why would the Reapers divert so many ships away from the space battle for mop-up duties when their 'one vulnerable point' is being directly threatened by their greatest enemy?
3/ Bullshit. Otherwise Hammer would have just run past the Destroyer, considering its got less firepower, rather then pussy-foot around it and kill it in a convuluted manner. Not to mention the only reason there's no cover that can be taken is because the game design stops you walking around via invisible walls. There's no reason at all to not flank Harbinger.
4/ Never mentioned, and if it was true we'd see fire support from other ships against Harbinger. As it is Normandy only shows up AFTER being called for an evac. Great 'fighting chance' there. Pure headcanon.

i.e. All handwaving. Beam run makes no sense.

Andromidius wrote:1/ Bullshit. They are still 2D sprites of Kaiden and Ashley
2/ Bullshit. Hammer is focused around the Beam, and is being annihilated. Why would the Reapers divert so many ships away from the space battle for mop-up duties when their 'one vulnerable point' is being directly threatened by their greatest enemy?
3/ Bullshit. Otherwise Hammer would have just run past the Destroyer, considering its got less firepower, rather then pussy-foot around it and kill it in a convuluted manner. Not to mention the only reason there's no cover that can be taken is because the game design stops you walking around via invisible walls. There's no reason at all to not flank Harbinger.
4/ Never mentioned, and if it was true we'd see fire support from other ships against Harbinger. As it is Normandy only shows up AFTER being called for an evac. Great 'fighting chance' there. Pure headcanon.

i.e. All handwaving. Beam run makes no sense.

1. As I said earlier (and I hate using it), Bioware was rushed, and changing things you can only even barely make out with a sniper scope is far down on the list of things to change.
2. Most gets pinned by Reaper forces, hence why there are no aliens at the beam run. If the beam run was just a hallucination, why doesn't Shepard imagine his alien allies? The reason is because they couldn't make it.
3. The Destroyer would've flanked Hammer if not taken care of, and you can't use that cover to flank something that can still see you in it. All you are doing is making easier targets because you can't travel as freely.
4. I'll admit this is headcanon, but the same can be said by some of IT. We are taking situations in the game and applying logical thinking to piece it together.

Beam Run may make no sense to you, but it does to me. I'm not saying you are wrong, so I'd like the same curtosy applied to me as well.

Here, I wrote this a while back but kinda forgot to finish it. This is some of the evidence for the Beam Run being a dream, but it definitely isn't all of it:

First: the second to last line before the transport crashes is Coats saying “We’re in sight of the target.” Wait, what? You’re in sight of the beam? By that logic, the whole of London is in sight of it. Or do you mean that you’re in sight of where everyone’s going to run to? No, sorry, you’re not. The transports are too far back to be able to see the valley or whatever it is that the beam is in the middle of. Shepard and Anderson have to run up to the edge to be able to see it and step back in horror. (By the way, your squadmates and Coats are never shown running up to the edge either and are just standing in random positions when the camera zooms out) Granted, there is a lot of evidence to say that Coats is just a hallucination, but all the same, if he’s real that statement is completely wrong.

Second: isn’t it odd that all it shows of the crash is the sudden stop and Shepard careening forward with his head in front? (so that if he, I don’t know, wasn’t able to stop himself in time his head would bang into the wall with a lot of force) After that, it’s a sudden cut to black for a few seconds followed by a view of outside the transport after everyone has already climbed out (and by “everyone” I mean “Shepard and Anderson.” Your squaddies and Coats appear magically behind you and Anderson after you get the the edge) and Anderson saying “Shit…” before everyone unanimously decides to run to the edge. Wait, why did Anderson wait that long to curse? Why didn’t they show everyone getting out? How did everyone unanimously decide to run over there? Why was everyone else completely silent? You’d think that both Shepard and your squadmates would have some comments on it. Shepard could have given some inspirational one-liner, a random squadmate could comment on how this wasn’t going to be fun, Javik would call everyone primitives and insist that in his day everyone made long, mad dashes past Reapers and liked it too…

Third: Wait. ReaperS. Why was only Harbinger there? What happened to the other Reapers Hackett had said were coming? We were even shown no less than EIGHT coming towards Earth, with the camera moving before we had for certain seen them all. So, where did they all go? And, now that I think about it, how did Harbinger get there so quickly? Even if you account for all the time skipped while you’re in the transport, he still got there awfully fast. It should take longer than that to go all the way from orbit to ground level. Meh, maybe he just used that magical transporter, standard issue to all plot-important space ships.

Fourth: The crash. How exactly did it happen? All we know is that there’s a sudden stop, and once everyone gets out we see that the tank apparently decided to lodge its front firmly in the ground and suddenly burst into flame. When you think about it, there is literally no way it could get in that position and catch on fire. So what happened?

That's what I have so far, but you'll note it's all from before the Beam Run even begins. In other words, there's a lot more. Just some food for thought.