So, when do you think the Hallucination starts? UPDATED WITH POLL

@ dork and Phantom Infiltrator - Glad to see I'm not the only one.

Starting the hallucinationat the Mako crash also makes things easier for Bioware to continue the story. One common literalist criticism is "What's the point of IT? Where can it possibly go? Shepard wakes up, Harbinger blasts him again. He dies. The end. LOL."

However if it starts at the Mako crash, then Harbinger hasn't even arrived yet. Not physically anyway. Plenty of time for the crew to get Shepard's unconscious body to safety.

Eryri wrote:@ dork and Phantom Infiltrator - Glad to see I'm not the only one.

Starting the hallucinationat the Mako crash also makes things easier for Bioware to continue the story. One common literalist criticism is "What's the point of IT? Where can it possibly go? Shepard wakes up, Harbinger blasts him again. He dies. The end. LOL."

However if it starts at the Mako crash, then Harbinger hasn't even arrived yet. Not physically anyway. Plenty of time for the crew to get Shepard's unconscious body to safety.

That's an excellent point, I just thought the Hallucinations were more like products of a dream after the Mako crash hence why I think that's where it starts, but you've thought of another very good reason too.

Side note: If you think about it, Shepard is suffering like every single side effect after this dream... Reaper dreams, Oily Shadows, Whispers, Hallucinations, acting weirdly, losing control.... like literally the whole nine yards.

There is little oily bushes (from the dreams) on the hill down to the beam.

Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

I'd go Mako crash for just a practical design perspective. Easiest to restart at that point, no harby yet, already did the Earth street fights, and you were probably knocked unconscious.

CorranusMaximus wrote:Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

You've watched too many Clevernoob videos haven't you? Reason it can't all be a dream:Arrival was handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard in some playthroughs.

CorranusMaximus wrote:Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

Those aren't that bad of hallucinations though and that stuff was more spread out throughout the game. People on the derelict Reaper could see things coming out of the wall while completely awake in ME2, and THAT is some batshit crazy stuff.

It isn't until earth at the very least that things feel surreal and dream-like, and it isn't until then that Shepard starts experiencing all of the indoc symptoms in a very short amount of time, as well as loads of hallucination-like things happening AT THE SAME TIME.

Also they would HAVE to redo Rannoch and curing the Genophage, etc. Which they already did perfectly in ME3, so they could only do WORSE.

draconian139 wrote:

CorranusMaximus wrote:Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

You've watched too many Clevernoob videos haven't you? Reason it can't all be a dream:Arrival was handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard in some playthroughs.

Well, since the comics, which are canon, say Shepard did Arrival, if your Shepard didnt do Arrival, your Shepard is non-canon.

Anyhow, I think it began after the transport crashed. I was leaning that way pre-EC, and the EC convinced me. I've seen people try to explain Harby not shooting the Normandy by claiming it was because of the IFF, but firstly, Harby has eyes. He can see Normandy. Secondly, the IFF never once stopped the Reapers from chasing you if you scanned a system too many times. Thirdly, even supposing Harby cant see through his eyes, having Shepard's squadmates board a Reaper (a Reaper he knows shouldnt be there) would be a bit suspicious. Harby would realize what was up.

draconian139 wrote:

CorranusMaximus wrote:Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

You've watched too many Clevernoob videos haven't you? Reason it can't all be a dream:Arrival was handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard in some playthroughs.

Naah, watched only first Clevernoob's video. This guy is soo boring...
Can't remeber if talked about everything being just an illusion...

But wait: what do you mean by: "Arrival was handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard in some playthroughs."

I'm not sure I fully understand. Does this means that we can play as someone else or what? Handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard? When? How? 0,o

You mean... when you haven't played Arrival, then squad of Alliance Soldiers blows up the Alpha Relay? But without Arrival the game isn't complete! It's essential, a must-have to fully understand ME3. Without it it's just...wrong! ;/

Eryri wrote:@ Restrider

I can't remember my original choice, but these days I would go for I. Cronos is real, but everything after the crash is a hallucination with the exception of the breath scene. I even count the stargazer scene as being suspect as I can't believe the same slightly unlikely event - a grandparent telling stories on a freezing cold night in a forest, would occur in exactly the same way upteen thousand years later, no matter what happens.

What really irks me regarding the stargazer scene is the fact that this planet has a similar skysetting to the garden world the Normandy crashes on. I know that there are other planets that have two moons in the trilogy (Jacob's LM, that N7 Mission/Firebase Dagger afaik).
However, we first see the garden world and the next scene we see is the stargazer scene. This leads to the assumption that it's on the same planet. Heck--- I had even the idea that the stargazers are progenies of the Normandy crew!

Mako Crash is the most likely for me.

Harbinger's beam is also a likely suspect.

Cronos Station is another (more faint) possibility, but high on the possibility of starting the 'waking nightmare'.

Could the Reaper Heart/Mind have an effect on Shepard or possibly trigger Shepard's latent indoctrination?

protognosis wrote:Could the Reaper Heart/Mind have an effect on Shepard or possibly trigger Shepard's latent indoctrination?

Could be. Not sure.
You should ask Demersel about this. He has loads of theories all around Cronos Station, TIM and the Reaper there.

protognosis wrote:Could the Reaper Heart/Mind have an effect on Shepard or possibly trigger Shepard's latent indoctrination?

Depends...
If Cronos is just a dream, then hell no. If it's reality - then hell yes! ;>

protognosis wrote:Could the Reaper Heart/Mind have an effect on Shepard or possibly trigger Shepard's latent indoctrination?

All I can say for certain is "being near it isn't going to be healthy regardless".

If its part of the hallucination (which I doubt) then it could be a mental trigger that accelerates the process. Very symbolic - seeing something you thought destroyed, and sensing that its watching you.

Byne wrote:

draconian139 wrote:

CorranusMaximus wrote:Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

You've watched too many Clevernoob videos haven't you? Reason it can't all be a dream:Arrival was handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard in some playthroughs.

Well, since the comics, which are canon, say Shepard did Arrival, if your Shepard didnt do Arrival, your Shepard is non-canon.

Anyhow, I think it began after the transport crashed. I was leaning that way pre-EC, and the EC convinced me. I've seen people try to explain Harby not shooting the Normandy by claiming it was because of the IFF, but firstly, Harby has eyes. He can see Normandy. Secondly, the IFF never once stopped the Reapers from chasing you if you scanned a system too many times. Thirdly, even supposing Harby cant see through his eyes, having Shepard's squadmates board a Reaper (a Reaper he knows shouldnt be there) would be a bit suspicious. Harby would realize what was up.

I prize what's told in game more than the books. The books have several things decided that could have been done differently in games, none of which are essential to Shepard's story. I don't view book Shepard as "canon" Shepard because you don't have to do things the same way as they were done in the book, I simply view them as stories about a particular Shepard. Saying otherwise is saying that a playthrough of Mass Effect is fanfiction...which its demonstrably not since its from the creators of the franchise. They're not going to make something that not all Shepards did the start of the dream.

CorranusMaximus wrote:
You mean... when you haven't played Arrival, then squad of Alliance Soldiers blows up the Alpha Relay? But without Arrival the game isn't complete! It's essential, a must-have to fully understand ME3. Without it it's just...wrong! ;/

In no way is it essential and yes, if you don't do Arrival a squad of soldiers does it instead of Shepard. I left that mission undone despite having the DLC, my Shepard is hardly a stealth expert. If he can't bring squadmates with him it'd be stupid of him to take that mission. There's better assets the Alliance could use.

Restrider wrote:

protognosis wrote:Could the Reaper Heart/Mind have an effect on Shepard or possibly trigger Shepard's latent indoctrination?

Could be. Not sure.
You should ask Demersel about this. He has loads of theories all around Cronos Station, TIM and the Reaper there.

Awesome. Hopefully Demersel will post soon.

draconian139 wrote:

Byne wrote:

draconian139 wrote:

CorranusMaximus wrote:Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

You've watched too many Clevernoob videos haven't you? Reason it can't all be a dream:Arrival was handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard in some playthroughs.

Well, since the comics, which are canon, say Shepard did Arrival, if your Shepard didnt do Arrival, your Shepard is non-canon.

Anyhow, I think it began after the transport crashed. I was leaning that way pre-EC, and the EC convinced me. I've seen people try to explain Harby not shooting the Normandy by claiming it was because of the IFF, but firstly, Harby has eyes. He can see Normandy. Secondly, the IFF never once stopped the Reapers from chasing you if you scanned a system too many times. Thirdly, even supposing Harby cant see through his eyes, having Shepard's squadmates board a Reaper (a Reaper he knows shouldnt be there) would be a bit suspicious. Harby would realize what was up.

I prize what's told in game more than the books. The books have several things decided that could have been done differently in games, none of which are essential to Shepard's story. I don't view book Shepard as "canon" Shepard because you don't have to do things the same way as they were done in the book, I simply view them as stories about a particular Shepard. Saying otherwise is saying that a playthrough of Mass Effect is fanfiction...which its demonstrably not since its from the creators of the franchise. They're not going to make something that not all Shepards did the start of the dream.

Like it or not, but there is a Canon Shepard.
John Shepard, Alliance SOLDIER, Earthborn and a Sole Survivor.
When I play Mass Effect I'm not Shepard, I control him. Same with Revan in KotOR. There is canon Revan you know, and The Exile too. They're all BioWare's characters. They have their own identity, their own motives etc. but you can't really make your own choices, only those presented by BioWare.
How bout this: I wanted Tali dead since the very first meeting with her, but I couldn't shoot her, same with Wrex. I wasn't allowed to make such choice, it would be non-canon, very non-canon. BioWare has it's own view on Mass Effect Universe and Shepard's story. He's their creation, not yours. They added "choices" for game to be more fun and to show you, how little your choices matter, even better. How little choice you really have, because choice is an Illusion my dear! ;>

Books, Comics, DLCs. They are ALL Essential! They ALL matter! If you don't have those, then your experience with story is not complete! ;>

CorranusMaximus wrote:

draconian139 wrote:

Byne wrote:

draconian139 wrote:

CorranusMaximus wrote:Hallucination starts after Arrival, Shepard never awoke from his sleep, I'm telling you! Would explain all this crazy shit in ME3, like QEC for e.g. I know, that's probably very unlikely but still...possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

So let's assume that ME3 is real, and Shepard is having hallucinations through the entire game, (Kid, QEC, Reapers) but that big Hallucination, when shit really gets weird is... before Cronos. Yeah, that would fit, he's still sleeping! ;>

You've watched too many Clevernoob videos haven't you? Reason it can't all be a dream:Arrival was handled by a squad of soldiers instead of Shepard in some playthroughs.

Well, since the comics, which are canon, say Shepard did Arrival, if your Shepard didnt do Arrival, your Shepard is non-canon.

Anyhow, I think it began after the transport crashed. I was leaning that way pre-EC, and the EC convinced me. I've seen people try to explain Harby not shooting the Normandy by claiming it was because of the IFF, but firstly, Harby has eyes. He can see Normandy. Secondly, the IFF never once stopped the Reapers from chasing you if you scanned a system too many times. Thirdly, even supposing Harby cant see through his eyes, having Shepard's squadmates board a Reaper (a Reaper he knows shouldnt be there) would be a bit suspicious. Harby would realize what was up.

I prize what's told in game more than the books. The books have several things decided that could have been done differently in games, none of which are essential to Shepard's story. I don't view book Shepard as "canon" Shepard because you don't have to do things the same way as they were done in the book, I simply view them as stories about a particular Shepard. Saying otherwise is saying that a playthrough of Mass Effect is fanfiction...which its demonstrably not since its from the creators of the franchise. They're not going to make something that not all Shepards did the start of the dream.

Like it or not, but there is a Canon Shepard.
John Shepard, Alliance SOLDIER, Earthborn and a Sole Survivor.
When I play Mass Effect I'm not Shepard, I control him. Same with Revan in KotOR. There is canon Revan you know, and The Exile too. They're all BioWare's characters. They have their own identity, their own motives etc. but you can't really make your own choices, only those presented by BioWare.
How bout this: I wanted Tali dead since the very first meeting with her, but I couldn't shoot her, same with Wrex. I wasn't allowed to make such choice, it would be non-canon, very non-canon. BioWare has it's own view on Mass Effect Universe and Shepard's story. He's their creation, not yours. They added "choices" for game to be more fun and to show you, how little your choices matter, even better. How little choice you really have, because choice is an Illusin my dear! ;>

Books, Comics, DLCs. They are ALL Essential! They ALL matter! If you don't have those, then your experience with story is not complete! ;>

Your Shepard was allowed to shoot Wrex. My Shepard was allowed to ignore the Arrival mission. I merely took choices that were presented and that they did account for. What's actually canon are the things that Shepard has to do/cannot do.

Edit:Really though, we're arguing semantics and getting sidetracked. So let me ask you a very simple question, do you really think BW wouldn't have just told the player that they did it anyways if they intended ME3 to just be a fevered dream during it.

draconian139 wrote: Your Shepard was allowed to shoot Wrex. My Shepard was allowed to ignore the Arrival mission. I merely took choices that were presented and that they did account for. What's actually canon are the things that Shepard has to do/cannot do.

Yes, I was allowed to shoot Wrex, but I wanted to do so at the first meeting with him and I wasn't allowed to...

I believe that the Hallucination starts at the transport crash before the beam run.

The main reasons I believe this:

1) There is a cut to black at that moment. The only times they use a cut to black like that are in the dream sequences.

2) The Normandy Evac scene is so out of place. Your squad would not abandon Shepard so close to the goal. Especially if you have Javik or EDI on your squad.

3) The squad Evac scene is very similar to the scene where Shepard leaves Earth. Anderson stays behind on Earth, while Shepard and the squad watch from the entrance to the Normandy Cargo Bay. There is a Reaper in close proximity that does not fire upon the Normandy- even though the Normandy is clearly in its sights. During the squad Evac scene, Shepard stays behind on Earth, while the squad is watching from the entrance to the cargo bay. Harbinger is in close proximity, and even looks at the Normandy. It seems like certain suicide from the view of the ones that are leaving. The Normandy Evac scene and the Leaving Earth scene are incredibly similar.

401 Kill wrote:I believe that the Hallucination starts at the transport crash before the beam run.

The main reasons I believe this:

1) There is a cut to black at that moment. The only times they use a cut to black like that are in the dream sequences.

2) The Normandy Evac scene is so out of place. Your squad would not abandon Shepard so close to the goal. Especially if you have Javik or EDI on your squad.

3) The squad Evac scene is very similar to the scene where Shepard leaves Earth. Anderson stays behind on Earth, while Shepard and the squad watch from the entrance to the Normandy Cargo Bay. There is a Reaper in close proximity that does not fire upon the Normandy- even though the Normandy is clearly in its sights. During the squad Evac scene, Shepard stays behind on Earth, while the squad is watching from the entrance to the cargo bay. Harbinger is in close proximity, and even looks at the Normandy. It seems like certain suicide from the view of the ones that are leaving. The Normandy Evac scene and the Leaving Earth scene are incredibly similar.

Never thought of that, great catch!

... did someone say "oily bush"?

50/50 Mako Crash and Harbinger blast. I honestly can't tell which one is the start, but it'd be one of those two.

As for the oddness before that, well.... Shepard's mind seems to be slowly cracking.