(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Post by Terramine on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:03 pm

dorktainian wrote:I always assumed the choices were played out in shepards mind...  if that's the case why pick anything but destroy - the only proactive option on the table?

for shepard to survive you must choose destroy.  it's the only chance he has of making it out of the rubble.
Why exactly? The Breath scene is really interesting to me... because first off you have to put it in context with the fact that clearly a reveal in ME3 was never intended. So you can't say the point is to reveal anything at all.

However I realized... that Destroy tells Shepard that Destroying the reapers... isn't really the end of them. It says, you Destroy them, and they're STILL AROUND. As per, the Breath scene. I know, people normally actually cite this to SUPPORT Destroy but when you think about it... the cognitive affect that has. Refuse says, that the Reapers get destroyed and it happens WITHOUT using their own weapon. And they're simply, /actually destroyed. This tells Shepard, that when the Reapers get destroyed, they are supposed to be gone.

You gotta thing what this is going to do to his outlook and thinking that Destroy = Reapers Alive ISN'T a good prognosis. When he wakes up, he'll have it set in his head that he's not supposed to destroy the Reapers.

If Refuse Shepard wakes up, he wakes up from the resolve that says "never give in to them even in the slightest, make whatever sacrifice is necessary. Even if that means we all die, in order to take them out. At the very least, they won't win either".

Mind you, i know you want to think "but that defeats the purpose, we're supposed to save THIS cycle!" but the reality is. that doesn't matters. What matters is, that you have the resolve to /do whatever it takes/. Shepard said exactly that, as he blew up the batarians. you don't think ,that's indicative of Refuse more than Destroy? Destroy says, you're not willing to die yourself. you'd rather sacrifice everyone else. This is actually closer, to Saren's mentality. He believe that by making the sacrifices he did, he would ensure his own survival. He literally said "MY SURVIVAL, IS THE ONLY REDEMPTION".

Here you're saying, because Shepard lives in Destroy. It's the right choice. NO, NONONONO. When comes to a test, about how far Shepard is willing to go. The first person he should sacrifice is himself. And for that matter, he SHOULD be willing to sacrifice EVERYONE in the current cycle if that's what it'll take. At least future cycles will be free of the Reapers. Destroy doesn't say we are free of the Reapers, it says surrender your resolve to them, make a deal with them and they can be destroyed only that way but also destroying them does not mean they are no longer present in some weird contradictory way?

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Post by Terramine on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:05 pm

I feel like Destroy is the ending where you become like that scientist in the first game... "Nobody is saved, nobody can stop them". Destroy teaches you, that you simply can't destroy them. Even when you destroy them, you don't destroy them. That's what they're programming in your head.

So then logically, you'll conclude it's IMPOSSIBLE to destroy them.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:05 pm

@Rif:

My ex-girlfriend used to have an Agapornis. It was a hilarious little thing. My ex had a really sarcastic laugh and the little parrot mimicked it perfectly, and also did it at the most appropriate moments. So if we had friends over and we had a good laugh, she would wait for everyone to finish laughing and then do the sarcastic little laugh. Cracked me up every time.

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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:48 am

Explain one thing, Terraine. If Refuse is the correct ending choice, why wasn't it part of the vanilla game and only added months later in the Extended Cut? Are you saying that Bioware put all this effort into something like the Indoctrination Theory and/or the offshoots of it yet didn't put a key part if not the key part of it according to you into the actual game but only through voluntarily downloaded content?
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Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:13 am

"I want to Destroy the Reapers at any cost" = Breath Scene = "I dont want to Destroy the Reapers."

There is a massive gap of logic here.

Also Shepard is full on willing to die himself in Destroy. Remember the Starbrat uses the line "even you are part synthetic" right after explaining that all Synthetics will die if you choose Destroy. He is clearly insinuating that Shepard will die should he make that choice, in all likelihood to dissuade Shepard from it, yet Shepard survives anyway.

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Post by dorktainian on Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:03 am

I don't get Terramine's logic here. The only thing that matters here is shepard takes a breath., It renders the other endings completely and utterly redundant.

An ending where shepard takes a breath also renders all the end cutscenes as completely and utterly redundant.

Because Shepard waking up tells you it was in his mind.

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Post by Terramine on Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:39 am

dorktainian wrote:I don't get Terramine's logic here.  The only thing that matters here is shepard takes a breath.,  It renders the other endings completely and utterly redundant.

An ending where shepard takes a breath also renders all the end cutscenes as completely and utterly redundant.

Because Shepard waking up tells you it was in his mind.
No it doesn't, not at all. I don't know where you got that idea at all. On it's own it adds nothing to the validity of IT actually. It's other way around if anything, the breath scene gleans most of it's significance from seeing things through an IT scope. Otherwise, most fans don't think much of it.

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Post by Terramine on Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:57 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:"I want to Destroy the Reapers at any cost" = Breath Scene = "I dont want to Destroy the Reapers."

There is a massive gap of logic here.

Also Shepard is full on willing to die himself in Destroy. Remember the Starbrat uses the line "even you are part synthetic" right after explaining that all Synthetics will die if you choose Destroy. He is clearly insinuating that Shepard will die should he make that choice, in all likelihood to dissuade Shepard from it, yet Shepard survives anyway.
Uh... You mean "I want to Destroy the Reapers with their consent and by their terms"? Sacrificing the Geth, isn't "any cost". It's saying you wouldn't sacrifice the organics for the Geth. If you're making any sacrifice, you'll sacrifice the Geth over organics any day. This should be obvious with the fact that you literally wipe them out, POTENTIALLY after they could've lived.

That's a massive red flag. That ending is ACTUALLY meant for those who normally would have no problem destroying the Geth in the first place. In fact, if you chose to destroy the Geth whether just cause or cause you couldn't get peace... Destroy is flawless to you. So it's definitely an ending more skewed by the bias against the Geth.

Synthesis is, being unwilling to sacrifice anybody. Technically if you take it at face value, the whole "galactic rape" thing pales in comparison to the fact that you SAVE EVERYBODY. Nobody can complain because to do so is for those people to say their right to not be... ehm... part synthetic? Somehow beats other people's right to life. In fact in on of the other endings, the Geth... Synthetics... Die. So in this way, one of the only other options was literally Become a little Synthetic VS Kill all Synthetics.

Control is killing those who "step out of line". Basically limiting sacrifice to those order is imposed upon. But otherwise countless lives are saved. So it's slightly less sacrificial than destroy but more so than Synthesis.

Destroy has a lot less compromise to the Reapers. But there is still slight compromise. Specifically that they get to dictate who gets Destroyed. There's major sacrifice here, but it's still only being willing to sacrifice a specific group in exchange for everyone else.

Refuse has no compromise at all with the Reapers. Leads to the destruction of the Reapers on our terms. Leads to the sacrifice of this galaxy, in order to stop future harvests. Which also makes sense by the way. Sacrificing the Geth logically isn't equal payment to stop the Reapers anyways. They're ancient organic synthetic hybrids who take 50,000 year long naps and harvest an entire Galaxy. In order to stop the Reaper harvest, you would need a sacrifice equal to at least 1 cycle. This it literally why in the end the Prothean's best efforts at the expense of the current cycle... was to delay them in the next one. Thematically it's the only choice that could lead to the destruction of the Reapers. Which is true for another reason too... specifically that you're not using the Reaper Trap which is a Red Herring anyways.

Pray tell... aren't Red Herrings things where they're just one big distraction that, you are literally required to COMPLETELY ignore?

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Post by Terramine on Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:03 am

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:Explain one thing, Terraine. If Refuse is the correct ending choice, why wasn't it part of the vanilla game and only added months later in the Extended Cut? Are you saying that Bioware put all this effort into something like the Indoctrination Theory and/or the offshoots of it yet didn't put a key part if not the key part of it according to you into the actual game but only through voluntarily downloaded content?
That's not even a legit criticism. It's one thing when ON DISK data is charged for as DLC. Or SELLING the ending SEPARATE from the main game.

But it's never been a thing, ever... that there was some sort of problem with putting crucial content in DLC for free. And this is assuming, it's actually crucial. Again it's easily possible they only made a "voluntary DLC" with "key parts of the story" for interpretive reasons. That is to say, they never actually intended Shepard to break out and putting the "break out" ending in free DLC was just a way to tell you that. to tell you to your face "Shepard is canonically indoctrinated".

But all this pales in comparison with the fact that /ALL DLC IS VOLUNTARY/. Saying "Voluntary DLC" is REDUNDANT. It's no more or less "voluntary" than Arrival, and yet we all know according to any IT advocate. There was /key/ shit to IT, in Arrival and you must ABSOLUTELY play Arrival among other DLCs even if you have to pirate that shit. whatever you do, you gotta play the DLCs just for purely IT reasons alone. But EC... nah nigguh... that shit is some sort of exception herpderp.

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Post by Jusseb on Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:15 pm

Terramine wrote:
dorktainian wrote:I don't get Terramine's logic here.  The only thing that matters here is shepard takes a breath.,  It renders the other endings completely and utterly redundant.

An ending where shepard takes a breath also renders all the end cutscenes as completely and utterly redundant.

Because Shepard waking up tells you it was in his mind.
No it doesn't, not at all. I don't know where you got that idea at all. On it's own it adds nothing to the validity of IT actually. It's other way around if anything, the breath scene gleans most of it's significance from seeing things through an IT scope. Otherwise, most fans don't think much of it.

Not entirely true I think. People who don't give thought to IT and choose high EMS destroy will interpret the breathscene as an sign that Shepard is still alive. It's the only possible good ending, it's the reward you get for getting as much support as you can to fight the Reapers.

People who think in terms of IT will see the breathscene as a sign that Shepard made the right decision and broke free of indoctrination. It's their reward for making the right choice.

Bioware added the refuse ending because people complained that they SHOULD have a choice to refuse to use the crucible. Refuse to make a choice and let 'fate' decide what will happen next. It's a war you can't win. I see it as a homeopathic medicine. Some people believe it will help and make you better, others don't.

You have to understand that many people here don't think that Shepard used the crucible by choosing destroy. He just broke free of indoctrination, he didn't actually press a button there. It's the choice he makes inside his head or he refuses to make a choice...
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Post by dorktainian on Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:34 pm

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 20 Bcbce91dcb636fd32e74bce1cc58b9b3b0efab9d821bf3d28d173a7eb1d37269

The crucible being an illusion planted in sheps mind by harbinger and his buddies. Yes he has the choice to destroy because they have to give him the choice to destroy. Nobody has ever chosen destroy, but shepard is special, he is an anomaly.

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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:57 pm

Terramine wrote:That's not even a legit criticism. It's one thing when ON DISK data is charged for as DLC. Or SELLING the ending SEPARATE from the main game.

But it's never been a thing, ever... that there was some sort of problem with putting crucial content in DLC for free. And this is assuming, it's actually crucial. Again it's easily possible they only made a "voluntary DLC" with "key parts of the story" for interpretive reasons. That is to say, they never actually intended Shepard to break out and putting the "break out" ending in free DLC was just a way to tell you that. to tell you to your face "Shepard is canonically indoctrinated".

But all this pales in comparison with the fact that /ALL DLC IS VOLUNTARY/. Saying "Voluntary DLC" is REDUNDANT. It's no more or less "voluntary" than Arrival, and yet we all know according to any IT advocate. There was /key/ shit to IT, in Arrival and you must ABSOLUTELY play Arrival among other DLCs even if you have to pirate that shit. whatever you do, you gotta play the DLCs just for purely IT reasons alone. But EC... nah nigguh... that shit is some sort of exception herpderp.
It is a legitimate criticism with you saying Refuse is the only right answer because Refuse wasn't part of the main game.

Oh, so you're saying that the original plan was for Shepard to be indoctrinated no matter what? Then why would they add an out in the form of Refuse, which you just said wasn't crucial? If it isn't crucial,why are you going around saying it is the only correct choice? That's it being crucial.

There was stuff to support IT in Arrival, but it wasn't key. Especially not as key as containing the only correct choice. To have something like that included only in something that not every player can even get is a worse decision than having the endings be as they are in literal point of view, because it's just a giant middle finger to the entire fanbase.

But I'm arguing to a person who calls people who disagree with then things like retarded and mocks that side rather than actually explaining their own side, so I don't know why I am bothering.
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Post by Guest on Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:14 pm

Sidenote:



12:50

"He's (Gerrel) just too concentrated on the goal."
"Yeah. He's too focused on the small picture, not the big picture, I think?"
"Or like the pic-the-d-larger picture... ah I dunno. I'm just trying to survive right now."


LMAO, ME3 in the nutshell.


Also funny is the 'Tali is racist/gethist' remarks earlier in the video.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:20 pm

Terramine wrote:However I realized... that Destroy tells Shepard that Destroying the reapers... isn't really the end of them. It says, you Destroy them, and they're STILL AROUND. As per, the Breath scene.

Only if you declare the breath scene as real and not part of the illusion. You can't have it both ways.

You've been claiming the breath scene is part of the illusion. You've been saying Shepard doesn't really wake up. There's two problems with that. One: If the breath scene isn't real, then you can't use it in your argument to claim the Reapers are still around. Two: You have no other "wake up moment", so you're saying it's an illusion, but you're basing it on nothing.

IT claims it's an illusion, based on the breath scene.

But if you say the breath scene isn't real, then you need to base the claim that the ending is an illusion on something else, and not just "the ending is all kinds of weird".

So either the breath scene is real, or it's not.

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Post by TurianRebel212 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:04 am

Terramine is off his meds again. Prepare the tinfoil hats.

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Post by Terramine on Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:23 am

I kind of want to drop this convo in favor of something I think is more substantial. So speaking of Arrival, anyone else notice how allegedly this is the Reaper's back up plan. But anyone can stop it. Even just a random military team basically? And that, when it's not Shepard... a whole team can go. But when it's Shepard? He HAS to go alone?

It's obvious to me... like undeniable really. That all of this was just a Reaper ploy to get Shepard near a Reaper artifact unconscious for a week or so. This was an actual indoctrination attempt... that technically failed. As think about it... if they had kept Shepard restrained... has anyone thought about that?

SHEPARD WOULD HAVE BEEN INDOCTRINATED INEVITABLY.

It just dawned on me that Arrival was an actual indoctrination attempt altogether.

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Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:18 pm

Terramine wrote:
It just dawned on me that Arrival was an actual indoctrination attempt altogether.

Ya think?!?!?!??!!!??!
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Post by Guest on Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:38 pm

I don't know if anyone's discussed this already, but it came across my news feed this morning so I thought I'd share:

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/27134/article/mass-effect-4-will-protheans-be-present/

Unless they're insinuating Casey Hudson's a Prothean (he's who I see at about 39 seconds in), I'm having a hard time seeing what they're talking about. Could be a baseless claim.

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Post by TurianRebel212 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:36 pm

fshep wrote:I don't know if anyone's discussed this already, but it came across my news feed this morning so I thought I'd share:

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/27134/article/mass-effect-4-will-protheans-be-present/

Unless they're insinuating Casey Hudson's a Prothean (he's who I see at about 39 seconds in), I'm having a hard time seeing what they're talking about. Could be a baseless claim.

Uggghhh, either way. I'm worried about ME4. EVERY. SINGLE. THING. They've shown about it has just been meh to me. Just meh. I mean, don't get more wrong, I'm such an EA wh0re and BioWare fanboy that I'm gonna get it. But.... I mean, I'm not really excited for it, lol.

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Post by smash016 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:29 pm

What worries me most is that we know very little about the game, yet what little we do know seems to support Ark Theory... which would likely mean IT or whatever cool overarching plot they had in store for us is replaced by a "clean slate"... because of pressure and shit.

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Post by Guest on Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:30 pm

fshep wrote:I don't know if anyone's discussed this already, but it came across my news feed this morning so I thought I'd share:

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/27134/article/mass-effect-4-will-protheans-be-present/

Unless they're insinuating Casey Hudson's a Prothean (he's who I see at about 39 seconds in), I'm having a hard time seeing what they're talking about. Could be a baseless claim.

Its a baseless claim.

I'm not too annoyed, but people really should stop going to these peripheral literally clickbait sites that regurgitate the most random and vague rumors or even utter falsehoods.

The 'is it a Prothian?' discussion was last year and we have almost nothing to work with.

Could it be one? Maybe.

But like 1/3 of a body shot isn't enough to know.

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Post by Guest on Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:36 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:
fshep wrote:I don't know if anyone's discussed this already, but it came across my news feed this morning so I thought I'd share:

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/27134/article/mass-effect-4-will-protheans-be-present/

Unless they're insinuating Casey Hudson's a Prothean (he's who I see at about 39 seconds in), I'm having a hard time seeing what they're talking about. Could be a baseless claim.

Uggghhh, either way. I'm worried about ME4. EVERY. SINGLE. THING. They've shown about it has just been meh to me. Just meh. I mean, don't get more wrong, I'm such an EA wh0re and BioWare fanboy that I'm gonna get it. But.... I mean, I'm not really excited for it, lol.

Visually, they've shown us:
-a few general settings, ruins and wrecks and various climates and cities
-N7 looking guy
-cool omnimap thing
-Mako back, no gun so far but its seems more agile and quick
-a more detailed seeming galaxy map
-more modular armor (parts of parts) instead of uniform (ME1) or parts based (ME2-ME3)
-more open looking areas?

So basically all we know is that their aiming to make the 'game' part of 'Mass Effect game'. That we can generally expect the game itself to be Mass Effecty, not including the story, since we know almost nothing about the story yet.

What's there to be worried about - specifically concerning what we've seen? Its nothing to outright worry or excite us. We have very little so far.

For myself, I'm still totally in 'wait and see' mode. When it comes to any interpretation of the story - literal or IT or anything else - we've only seen things that could fit practically ANY interpretation. 

Though I do think that this year will change that.

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Post by Guest on Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:46 pm

smash016 wrote:What worries me most is that we know very little about the game, yet what little we do know seems to support Ark Theory... which would likely mean IT or whatever cool overarching plot they had in store for us is replaced by a "clean slate"... because of pressure and shit.

As I said in my last post, it could support anything

Hell, lets just say 'Ark Theory' is correct - or at least the broad interpretation of it (that there's an ark finding something at some point). So? Does that have to be the whole game? Does it have to be the only thing that matters?

Hell, we could have a whole first 1/4-1/3 of the game (like DAI's Haven) be something entirely different than that, but more relatively more related to story of previous games (Sacred Ashes, Chantry, Mage/Templar), before moving into the 'Ark' for the next 2/3-3/4 of the game (like DAI's Skyhold) (moving into new lore like Orlais, revisions of old lore like Wardens and Elves). For an example.

We could see a ruined galaxy from the trilogy - thanks Reapers - and have to take people on a trip to another. Is that bad? Does it go entirely against IT itself?

I say this as something who typically HATES 'ark' plot devices. Hates. Worse than 'it was a dream'. Worse than 'time wibbly wobbly'. Worse than 'true love conquers all'.

I just don't think it'd automatically make the game bad, or that its possibility goes against IT so far.

An ark could still have to cross the Milky Way (maybe even explore it for resources, or maybe even drop off people who want to stick around the galaxy, aka spreading influence), and it could still be subject to grand manipulations, and it could still involve conflict with all sorts of currently-known enemies and threats. It would just be a newish setting - like ME2 was underworld and ME3 was war. We didn't lose interaction with the underworld in ME3, and we may not lose an element of war with the new Mass Effect.
(New Gen) Battlestar Galactica (whether you like the series or not) sure didn't fully end the war with Cylons after the destruction of the Colonies, but it did change most of the parameters and viewpoints on it. Some could insist that the war was won by the Cylons (Blue?), while others could insist that it isn't over until either every Human died or every Cylon died (Red?), and others could insist that there was no real war, but a cycle of cosmic existence that is now taking a fleet of both Humans and Cylons to Earth (Green?).


For the record, I hate Ark Theory, and I wouldn't be overjoyed if we had to be an Ark Ship/Fleet. I'm just expressing my thoughts on how it doesn't necessarily make a bad overall game or story.

Hell, I dislike most military stuff in media, but here I am, glad enough to play an Alliance soldier.


EDIT: I'm just talking about a general possibility. I'm not even proposing this as a theory or anything like that. Just saying that we just don't have enough to go on for anything, so anything goes for brainstorming what Bioware will actually do (not that ME3 is, but what 'ME4' can or may be).

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Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:12 pm

Ark Theory can be made to work. It's just a difficult starting premise. BioWare plots tend to have a bunch of bait and switches, so whatever the starting premise, expect something else entirely before its end.
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Post by Guest on Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:27 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Ark Theory can be made to work.  It's just a difficult starting premise.  BioWare plots tend to have a bunch of bait and switches, so whatever the starting premise, expect something else entirely before its end.

Haha yes exactly.

They can propose the game as anything. And it'll probably be a misdirection.  tongue

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