(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Post by Rifneno on Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:05 am

I really don't understand why we parade some retard's post around the forum and go, "Look!  Indoctrinated!"

Well, yeah.  That's kind of the point we've been making for 3 and a half years.  It's a dead horse.  Why are we beating it?  I'd understand if it was for the purpose of brutally mocking an idiot.  The prospect of punishing stupidity is what gets me up in the morning.  But it's not that.  Everyone just points and goes, "Indoctrinated!"  Why do we do this?

Top!  Is for child molesters!

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Post by smash016 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:16 pm

We do because we have nothing else left to talk about here.

Not like the prospect of ME:A is revving things up either.

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Post by Master Blaster on Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:07 am

smash016 wrote:We do because we have nothing else left to talk about here.

Not like the prospect of ME:A is revving things up either.

Quite. It is also i believe because we heard all the arguments they would have. It has gotten to the point some of us just do it out of tiredness and simply because we simple mean it. There is really no point in debating at all since 9/10 most of them don't even want too anymore and it is easy to just name call them rather than have a conversation about a theory vs liberalism.

I'd also like to believe we have gone so far already, we reached the point of nothing matters other than what we have gone and done. The hard work we put in, the amount of praise a good portion of us did, how time after time we hoped something would happen. All gone but always that "1 in a million chance"

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:19 pm

Master Blaster wrote:There is really no point in debating at all since 9/10 most of them don't even want too anymore and it is easy to just name call them rather than have a conversation about a theory vs liberalism.

lolwut

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Post by Guest on Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:32 pm

Just another MB spelling mistake. I hope.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:04 pm

Ohhhhh, that hadn't even occurred to me, haha. It's just one letter difference.

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Post by Rifneno on Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:26 am

See, the problem there is that you read an MB post.

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Post by HYR 2.1 on Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:03 am

Hey all,

Can I get one small favor from the people here? Well, not that small, but nonetheless. Could you keep the "Hanako Ikezawa"-nonsense restricted to your own place? This thing takes personally what is not insult, and then reports it to the mods, whom -- like the drones that they are -- mindlessly hand out warning-points to the reported, getting lots of people some undeserved punishment. I know I am not the only one who has had this issue, so this really is a greater-good kind of deal. Smile

Or is this some sort of punishment you are inflicting on us? If so, I will hand it to you. It is certainly felt! =(
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Post by Rifneno on Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:01 am

He doesn't come around here anymore specifically because we refuse to censor people like that.  He can't handle the Internet, let alone the world, and demands it be censored.

Blue whale calves are about 25 feet long and 6,000 pounds at birth.  Despite this, he remains the biggest pussy on Earth.  Youtube took down a video of a recent comic convention because of a brief moment where the camera showed Selim shaking some woman's hand was ruled to technically be a lesbian fisting scene.

The guy who founded this forum actually left forever because he couldn't take listening to Selim's bullshit.  Seriously.

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Post by Ithurael on Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:21 pm

^^ LOL. Rifneno you need to do standup or roasts man. I adore your words.

Also, I have been wanting to ask this, but is this Haneko guy the same one as ruul, burak, drazaen, 1m1m1m1m? This one seems to close his account, open a new one and then troll the forums with a palpable sense of pretentiousness and condescension. The guy got me a warning point and a few others temp banned.

Too bad about the founder - was it Byne? Either way it is too bad. :(

Keep it Funny Gents!

And...seriously, Rifneno, standup/roasts/something man!!

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Post by Master Blaster on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:48 pm

HYR 2.1 wrote:Hey all,

Can I get one small favor from the people here? Well, not that small, but nonetheless. Could you keep the "Hanako Ikezawa"-nonsense restricted to your own place? This thing takes personally what is not insult, and then reports it to the mods, whom -- like the drones that they are -- mindlessly hand out warning-points to the reported, getting lots of people some undeserved punishment. I know I am not the only one who has had this issue, so this really is a greater-good kind of deal. Smile

Or is this some sort of punishment you are inflicting on us? If so, I will hand it to you. It is certainly felt! =(

I've been gone from the the site when he left. He hasn't come back on here so i assume either something happened to where he isn't back at all or simply hasn't come on here for whatever reason. So nothing much we can do other than anything.

Good luck with the problem. Sorry at least i can't be of much help. Maybe the others might but there isn't much to do i believe.

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Post by Master Blaster on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:51 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Master Blaster wrote:There is really no point in debating at all since 9/10 most of them don't even want too anymore and it is easy to just name call them rather than have a conversation about a theory vs liberalism.

lolwut

I was giving an estimation of how many are simply too tired of debating since it has been three years. Not that it is true but from what i can see people just don't want to debate since they are frustrated and the feeling has long passed.

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http://forum.bioware.com/groups/637-was-the-ending-a-hallucination-it/
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Post by Master Blaster on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:54 pm

Rifneno wrote:He doesn't come around here anymore specifically because we refuse to censor people like that.  He can't handle the Internet, let alone the world, and demands it be censored.

Blue whale calves are about 25 feet long and 6,000 pounds at birth.  Despite this, he remains the biggest pussy on Earth.  Youtube took down a video of a recent comic convention because of a brief moment where the camera showed Selim shaking some woman's hand was ruled to technically be a lesbian fisting scene.

The guy who founded this forum actually left forever because he couldn't take listening to Selim's bullshit.  Seriously.


So that was the real reason why Androm left. huh well wonder if now he would comeback.

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Autobots transform and role out!

http://forum.bioware.com/groups/637-was-the-ending-a-hallucination-it/
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:53 pm

It's out of our hands, HYR. He was the same around here. I've personally never had any serious issue with him, but he does take offence easily.


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Post by Rifneno on Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:28 am

Master Blaster wrote:
Rifneno wrote:He doesn't come around here anymore specifically because we refuse to censor people like that.  He can't handle the Internet, let alone the world, and demands it be censored.

Blue whale calves are about 25 feet long and 6,000 pounds at birth.  Despite this, he remains the biggest pussy on Earth.  Youtube took down a video of a recent comic convention because of a brief moment where the camera showed Selim shaking some woman's hand was ruled to technically be a lesbian fisting scene.

The guy who founded this forum actually left forever because he couldn't take listening to Selim's bullshit.  Seriously.


So that was the real reason why Androm left. huh well wonder if now he would comeback.
Nope.  I've asked but to no avail.  Selim is what made him leave initially but he doesn't want to come back even with Selim gone.

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Post by smash016 on Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:53 pm

I like how everybody here is seriously deranged in his/her own way and is beyond being embarrassed about it, too.

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Post by Terramine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:16 pm

GUYS I FIGURED IT OUT

Okay so you know how Saren thought he was stopping the Reapers with Peace and then had to shoot himself? And how TIM also thought he could stop the Reapers with Control and then had to shoot himself? But there's also something different between the 2. Saren upon being killed, gets body hijacked by Sovereign. But TIM doesn't. This is because TIM is Harbinger's failed attempt at finding a true Avatar.

There is not only 2 levels to Indoctrination. There are 3 and each one basically build upon the previous one:

Level 1 is a very loose indoctrination in which the person is lead to believe in a general cause that the Reapers will bring. This leads to zealotism and breaks down into insanity if the agent doesn't get the chance to commit martyrdom and kill themselves for a cause that the Reapers have convinced them of. case in point, the Asari who blew herself up to kill a bunch of important people, as opposed to the gibbering Salarian we met on Virmire.

Level 2 is only for individuals with a will strong enough to receive level 1 indoctrination but they somehow remain completely free willed. Because of this, level 1 indoctrination will not work on them because they are too smart and too strong willed to be persuaded simply by a corruption of ideology. Instead Level 2 indoctrination works AORUND the person's ideology and basically appeals to it. Convincing them that associating themselves with the Reapers is the only way to achieve what they want. Case in point The Illusive Man being convinced that he can control the Reapers if he hangs out with them long enough and basically uses them. Basically level 2 indoctrination is all about convincing the subject to USE the Reapers for their own ends. By doing this the Reapers can subvert such an individual by working closely with them.

Level 3 indoctrination is what I call the Avatar. It takes a unique kind of individual to reach this level. Basically Level 3 indoctrination is for when someone is capable of hosting a Reaper inside themselves without basically ripping apart. Somehow their physiology has withstood the process so far. This is not a BAD thing to the Reapers but instead is in fact IDEAL. Technically Level 3 can be forced on any individual with the help of technology, but upon doing this... it basically is a perversion of true Level 3 indoctrination. Basically they replace the individual completely and instead you end up with a MACHINE avatar. Rather than a fusion of man and machine. This is what happened to Saren. It's a saftey switch in case the individual breaks away from your control or whatever else. In the event that they rebel enough to thwart the Reaper's plans, like say blow their own brains out, the Reaper can just flip the switch and take full control of the body by force.

True Level 3 is when someone is willing to fully embrace what the Reapers are, what they're all about, etc. It's basically someone being WILLING to let them in. At each level the individual lets them in to an increasing degree. But if the Reapers try to force control over the victim at Stage 1 they become a gibbering animal. At level 2 this doesn't happen, but they do become stunted and cannot progress any further without being forced technologically. Level 3, which we have never actually seen... is when someone basically lets a Reaper freely come and go about as they please, within their body. They embrace everything the Reapers strive for so even when the Reaper isn't controlling them, they are simply fighting for the Reapers. No gimmicks. No delusions to think they're really trying to stop the Reapers or something or that the Reapers will bring unity or any of that shit.

Mass Effect 1 was all about Level 1 indoctrination. Saren was the ultimate example of Level 1 indoctrination. As well the other iconic examples such as the Asari I mentioned previously, as well as the Virmire Salarians... both originated from Mass Effect 1. Mass Effect 2 was about Level 2 indoctrination. TIM is the ultimate example of Type 2 indoctrination and I'm sure if you re-examine the entire second game with what I've said here... it'll make a scary amount of sense. Mass Effect 3 is about Level 3 indoctrination and Shepard is our ultimate example of Level 3 indoctrination. Mass Effect 4 being the final game in the series, taking what we've been taught in 1-3 to be tested in 4 as soon as we see that the N7 soldier in Andromeda... is Shepard.

This also fits with the ending of Mass Effect 3. Because if you remember what Starbrat said. He said the merging of man and machine, is not something that can be... forced. The starbrat was talking about indoctrination. Indoctrination cannot be forced, Shepard must accept the Reapers into himself.

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Post by Terramine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:44 pm

How this fits with the ending depends. Since everybody here diverges from my interpretation completely I will try to make accommodations as best as possible:

-Synthesis is level 1 indoctrination. The Reapers overwhelm your entire being. This is why the beam eradicates you altogether too, because the Reapers would have no use for a machine avatar here. The machine avatar is only for situations like with Saren.

-Control is level 2 indoctrination. You work with the Reapers basically. You want to take the dominant role over them but they are manipulating you. This is useless for anything other than TIM's predicament so of course, you also get eradicated here.

-Destroy is level 3 indoctrination. It's as close to Shepard's original idea as possible. But it's twisted in a way that basically leaves room for the Reapers. So he inadvertently lets Harbinger into himself whether he knows the full implications of what he's doing or not.

Refuse being the way to escape indoctrination. But it's likely that Shepard was never meant to choose this way. It was thrown in, in the EC, to tell us that Shepard didn't make it out no matter what.

Alternative for those who support Destroy as the right choice:

-Refuse is Level 1(figure out the details yourself)

-Control is Level 2

-Synthesis is Level 3(figure out the details yourself)

Destroy, kills Shepard. Which during this point will likely render Harbinger vulnerable just like what happened with Sovereign. If Harbinger gets destroyed then it's likely the rest of the Reaper forces will be without direction and will be confused and vulnerable too. Allowing the Reapers to be pushed back into dark space. Although even if this is true, it's not looking like it's going to matter. It seems the canon ending is whichever one leads to Type 3 indoctrination because I am pretty convinced that the N7 soldier in Andromeda is an Indoctrinated Shepard that we are going to have to face.

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Post by Terramine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:55 pm

Actually as an addendum to my own interpretation. It's possible that Refuse is in fact a form of "inaction". It may be irrelevance. It may be that by choosing it, you're missing the point. I actually think that, that's probably what is happening. But I still stick to my interpretation of how the 3 choices align with indoctrination. I think Refuse is basically "missing the point" but that Destroy is still Level 3 indoctrination.

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Post by Master Blaster on Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:59 pm

Rifneno wrote:
Master Blaster wrote:
Rifneno wrote:He doesn't come around here anymore specifically because we refuse to censor people like that.  He can't handle the Internet, let alone the world, and demands it be censored.

Blue whale calves are about 25 feet long and 6,000 pounds at birth.  Despite this, he remains the biggest pussy on Earth.  Youtube took down a video of a recent comic convention because of a brief moment where the camera showed Selim shaking some woman's hand was ruled to technically be a lesbian fisting scene.

The guy who founded this forum actually left forever because he couldn't take listening to Selim's bullshit.  Seriously.


So that was the real reason why Androm left. huh well wonder if now he would comeback.
Nope.  I've asked but to no avail.  Selim is what made him leave initially but he doesn't want to come back even with Selim gone.

AH. That's depressing.

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Autobots transform and role out!

http://forum.bioware.com/groups/637-was-the-ending-a-hallucination-it/
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:01 pm

I've always said that destroy actually destroys Shepard, unless (s)he gathered enough assets to survive the attempt. Hence the breath scene.

For me it breaks down like this:

Want to destroy? > You're being destroyed. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you destroyed us)

Want to control? > You're being controlled. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you're in control)

Want to synthesize? > Goal aligns with that of the Reapers > Get harvested, become a Reaper. Minds uploaded into a virtual reality, genetic qualities harnessed by the new Reaper. Blissful ignorance inside a perfect virtual world.

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Post by Master Blaster on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:04 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I've always said that destroy actually destroys Shepard, unless (s)he gathered enough assets to survive the attempt. Hence the breath scene.

For me it breaks down like this:

Want to destroy? > You're being destroyed. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you destroyed us)

Want to control? > You're being controlled. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you're in control)

Want to synthesize? > Goal aligns with that of the Reapers > Get harvested, become a Reaper. Minds uploaded into a virtual reality, genetic qualities harnessed by the new Reaper. Blissful ignorance inside a perfect virtual world.

Isn't that what we have been talking about all this time? Sure Destroy if you have enough assets does set Shepard free, yet if you have low assets Shepard will die since he/she won't have the will to live/ the Reapers end Shepard.

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Post by Terramine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:43 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I've always said that destroy actually destroys Shepard, unless (s)he gathered enough assets to survive the attempt. Hence the breath scene.

For me it breaks down like this:

Want to destroy? > You're being destroyed. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you destroyed us)

Want to control? > You're being controlled. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you're in control)

Want to synthesize? > Goal aligns with that of the Reapers > Get harvested, become a Reaper. Minds uploaded into a virtual reality, genetic qualities harnessed by the new Reaper. Blissful ignorance inside a perfect virtual world.
Well sure but that doesn't factor in Andromeda. I'll default to this version of IT, aka the main version of IT... IF, and only IF. Bioware ISN'T lying and there really won't be any continuing of the main storyline. Hell I'm not even sure WHAT to think, I just know this new interpretation fits with ME4.

I actually sort of stopped caring about this whole fiasco long ago when I realized there was way more important shit. Now I'm gonna master the sciences and crack interdimensional as well faster than light travel. Who gives a fuck about Shepard's story when you can just go to space yourself and have whatever the fuck space adventures you want?

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Post by Guest on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:33 am

"Who gives a fuck about Shepard's story when you can just go to space yourself and have whatever the fuck space adventures you want?"

Cue next protagonist. lol

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Post by Rifneno on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:47 am

Master Blaster wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:I've always said that destroy actually destroys Shepard, unless (s)he gathered enough assets to survive the attempt. Hence the breath scene.

For me it breaks down like this:

Want to destroy? > You're being destroyed. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you destroyed us)

Want to control? > You're being controlled. (But we'll leave you with the illusion that you're in control)

Want to synthesize? > Goal aligns with that of the Reapers > Get harvested, become a Reaper. Minds uploaded into a virtual reality, genetic qualities harnessed by the new Reaper. Blissful ignorance inside a perfect virtual world.

Isn't that what we have been talking about all this time? Sure Destroy if you have enough assets does set Shepard free, yet if you have low assets Shepard will die since he/she won't have the will to live/ the Reapers end Shepard.
Leviathan spelled it out pretty clear.  Shepard was basically knocked silly and defenseless after he defended off that indoctrination attempt.  One of the brutes almost finished him.  Another brute got controlled and defended Shepard long enough for him to come to and get to safety.

Low EMS destroy: Shepard fends off indoctrination, but before regains consciousness he's killed by Reaper forces.
High EMS destroy: Shepard fends off indoctrination, and Shepard's allies are able to defend his helpless physical form until his mind returns to normal.

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