(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:49 pm

Random thought. I think the parallel between Shepard in the control and synthesis endings and Legion when it wants to use the Reaper code is interesting.

"Error. Copying code is insufficient. Direct personality dissemination required."

All require the participant to die. Control, synthesis, and using the Reaper code on Rannoch.

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Post by ZerebusPrime on Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:42 am

Ah yes. Disseminating Reaper Code across all the Geth and then standing back while they start to install themselves into Quarian suits and manipulate Quarian biology.

Nothing at all of tremendous concern there! Cool
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Post by Terramine on Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:37 am

Look guys, I cannot agree that, that guy deserves props. Anyone who analyzes the series without the acknowledgement that everything was written intended for IT, doesn't know what the fuck they are even talking about. We all know this, you guys SHOULD know this.

We know how definitive it is. So any self-righteous egotistical critic sitting there analyzing and deconstructing shit like they're some sort of elite voice on what is logical and senseful to a story. Really needs to take a step back when they are analyzing this game if they haven't already first come to embrace IT as the true original intention. Then, only then can they start making judgements about the whole thing.

Because IT DOESN'T just start in ME3. It goes all the way back to the first game. The evidence, the hints, the thematics, etc. It all overarchs accross the entire trilogy. IT is at the scale of a trilogy, not just 1 game. Everything from Saren, to Illusive Man, etc. Being shown entire character arcs of what indoctrination is like and what it means.

So a dude that sits there and says "OH THE WRITERS WROTE US IOUS AND WHEN SHEP GOT TO THE BEAM WHICH WAS WHEN THE CHECKS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE DELIVERED, WE WERE PAYED BACK IN BAD WRITING(tm)" isn't anybody I would say knows what the fuck they are talking about.

How is it a plot hole that everything we did in 1 and 2 was pointless? It's not like Shepard or anyone else in the universe knew that about the Reapers. Most the information on the Reapers didn't come until ME3, when the galaxy knew they existed and started analyzing their weaknesses, etc. So how the fuck we were supposed to anticipate that the relay system was just there for increased efficiency and not an outright requirement? We learned thing about the Reapers as they came up/as they were actually made apparent to us.

So in 1 it was all "Oh the Reapers are some sentient machine-organic hybrids that have been hiding out, and they are coming through the relays". That's all we knew. It should be obvious that one of the ways the Reapers are so successful is because they have the monopoly on information while simultaneously dumbing everyone down by scrambling their brains.

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Post by Terramine on Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:40 am

I thought we all were aware that anyone who sees the ending as "just bad writing" is a total retard. It's a cop out spewed by those who don't even have an iota of brains to think about shit.

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Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:04 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Ah yes.  Disseminating Reaper Code across all the Geth and then standing back while they start to install themselves into Quarian suits and manipulate Quarian biology.

Nothing at all of tremendous concern there! Cool

Oh for fucks sake are we really going here again?

Legion had like a million opputunities to eliminate or get Shepard captured, like i dont know, not getting the escape vehicle...

And if the Geth are Reaper controlled then we could have kissed our asses goodbye in the final battle in the span of 5 minutes by them just firing in all directions as the fleet gets into position.

These things did not happen. If the Geth are Reaper controlled, why did they not happen?

Edit: Also i guess the Normandy and EDI is Reaper controlled as well since we are using a Reaper IFF and our main cannon is reverse engineered from Reaper tech.

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Post by triggerwarning on Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:04 pm

Terramine wrote:I thought we all were aware that anyone who sees the ending as "just bad writing" is a total retard. It's a cop out spewed by those who don't even have an iota of brains to think about shit.

Just because clear foreshadowing exists, and the ending choices seem to thematically reflect that foreshadowing doesn't mean IT as it is generally understood-some level of hallucination- is true, nor does these thematic elements clearly existing necessarily preclude bad writing in the ending.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:10 pm

(((In fact, we did not know in ME1 that the Reapers were machine-organic hybrids. We learned that in ME2.)))

Raistlin Majere wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:Ah yes.  Disseminating Reaper Code across all the Geth and then standing back while they start to install themselves into Quarian suits and manipulate Quarian biology.

Nothing at all of tremendous concern there! Cool

Oh for fucks sake are we really going here again?

Legion had like a million opputunities to eliminate or get Shepard captured, like i dont know, not getting the escape vehicle...

I'll bite. Just for the sake of argument. Sleeper agent, Legion probably doesn't even realize he could be used at any time the Reapers desire. Also the Reapers prefer Shepard alive. We all know why.

Raistlin Majere wrote:And if the Geth are Reaper controlled then we could have kissed our asses goodbye in the final battle in the span of 5 minutes by them just firing in all directions as the fleet gets into position.

These things did not happen. If the Geth are Reaper controlled, why did they not happen?

Because the Reapers didn't deem it necessary yet. They're patient. They like to keep some aces up their sleeves. Also, it would have made Shepard's decision to choose destroy and sacrifice the Geth a hell of a lot easier. I for one wouldn't be surprised to see horrendous Quarian/Geth hybrids in the sequel that'll never happen.


Raistlin Majere wrote: Also i guess the Normandy and EDI is Reaper controlled as well since we are using a Reaper IFF and our main cannon is reverse engineered from Reaper tech.

Oh come on. Of course not. Reverse engineering is safe. Except maybe for the people studying the original tech. And the IFF seems hardly enough. It's basically an ID chip, not a living program.

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Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:11 am



Patience is all well and good, but the war will be over once no matter how the battle at earth swings. Win or lose it is all decided at Earth and if the Geth are sleeper agents then it is already decided. The fleet is struggling as it is, beeing shot in the back would be an instant death blow.

The Reapers may want Shepard, but they also by all indications want to minimize casualties, the entire cycle is based arounjd hitting the races in such a way that they cant fight back effectively. Keeping such a an instant win condition as the entire Geth race back would just be unnecesary casualties for the Reapers, casualties they cannot easily replenish.

It is a no win scenario and not one the player can simply load a quick save to undo, unlike the ending choices.

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:08 pm

Yeah, so there's no reason at all Javik brings up the Zha'til right when you're about to go to Rannoch... a race entering into a symbiotic relationship with AI for not being able to live on their homeworld any more... (sound familiar?)

Javik: "In my cycle, a race called the Zha used machines, the Zha'til, as synthetic symbiotes. The Reapers subjugated the Zha'til as they have the geth. Their mechanical swarms blotted out the sky. They were brutal, merciless."
Tali: "Keelah. What did you do?"
Javik: "We sent their star into supernova. I believe the Zha would have thanked us."

(...)

Shepard: "You mentioned before your people had problems with AI."
Javik: "The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle."
Shepard: "What happened?"
Javik: "Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence."
Shepard: "I think I know where this is going."
Javik: "The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters."

(...)


Javik: "Your synthetic ally is using Reaper code. That is a mistake."


Yeah, I know, we're beating dead horses here.

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Post by ZerebusPrime on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:33 am

What DD said.

Plus I just think that Legion of ME3 has turned 180 degrees away from Legion of ME2 in terms of core motivation.  Legion from ME2 knew better than to accept a future from the Reapers, knew the critical importance of the Geth finding their own way through technological progress, and that's just the runtimes within its platform, not the Consensus as a whole.  The Consensus getting dumber by virtue of the Quarian attack is no excuse for Legion accepting a Reaper upgrade and then keeping it after we free it from the Geth dreadnought.  

In my opinion, Legion of ME3 is not Legion of ME2.  I came to that conclusion years ago.  I had a big list of observations, but then DD posted it better first.  My opinion in this regard has not wavered.  The Reapers ruin everything; the Geth-Quarian alliance is tainted.

We all saw how Reaper Code can regenerate and extend itself in the Geth Consensus mission.  I've no doubt that it will snake its way through the entire combined Quarian-Geth network.  The Geth need to die: their having souls increases the tragedy but does not elevate them above any other society on the ME3 chopping board.
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Post by dorktainian on Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:26 am

Shepard: "You mentioned before your people had problems with AI."
Javik: "The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle."
Shepard: "What happened?"
Javik: "Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence."
Shepard: "I think I know where this is going."
Javik: "The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters."

synthesis in a nutshell.....

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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:29 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:What DD said.

Plus I just think that Legion of ME3 has turned 180 degrees away from Legion of ME2 in terms of core motivation.  Legion from ME2 knew better than to accept a future from the Reapers, knew the critical importance of the Geth finding their own way through technological progress, and that's just the runtimes within its platform, not the Consensus as a whole.  The Consensus getting dumber by virtue of the Quarian attack is no excuse for Legion accepting a Reaper upgrade and then keeping it after we free it from the Geth dreadnought.  

In my opinion, Legion of ME3 is not Legion of ME2.  I came to that conclusion years ago.  I had a big list of observations, but then DD posted it better first.  My opinion in this regard has not wavered.  The Reapers ruin everything; the Geth-Quarian alliance is tainted.

We all saw how Reaper Code can regenerate and extend itself in the Geth Consensus mission.  I've no doubt that it will snake its way through the entire combined Quarian-Geth network.  The Geth need to die: their having souls increases the tragedy but does not elevate them above any other society on the ME3 chopping board.

I agree completely.

It's a shame though that it seems pointless to discuss any of this now we have a vague idea of what's next in ME. =/

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Post by ZerebusPrime on Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:44 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

It's a shame though that it seems pointless to discuss any of this now we have a vague idea of what's next in ME. =/

Eh, stick it on the shelf until we see what we really have in the next game.
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Post by dorktainian on Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:14 pm

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Post by Terramine on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:17 am

triggerwarning wrote:
Just because clear foreshadowing exists, and the ending choices seem to thematically reflect that foreshadowing doesn't mean IT as it is generally understood-some level of hallucination- is true
You're new here. Why is a new guy butting in and basically goin "HEY GUYS, MAYBE IT IS WRONG"? And nobody puts him in his place about it? Seriously?

I'll tell you now triggerwarning. You are not on the same page as we are. We are arguing from the position that the evidence isn't just foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is like 1 iota of the whole colossal mountain we've stacked up. There isn't just foreshadowing. There is overwhelming evidence out the ass. Stuff like Shepard objectively going through all the symptoms. Having indoctrination dreams which is undeniably exactly what the ME3 nightmares were. The fact that in Refuse Starbrat takes down the little boy's voice means the ending was clearly some sort of TRICK and we were being manipulated. What other reason would a fucking Reaper make itself sound and look like an innocent little boy from Shep's memory?

Bioware had said that the little boy was constructed from Sheps memories, around the same time they claimed the ending was a "mind battle" and that they attempted to make indoctrination a thing but allegedly failed because game mechanic shit.. Since the little boy Catalyst made it into the game, there's no reason to think the "mind battle" statement was outdated either. It's almost undeniable that the ending currently is in fact a mind battle. Bioware said it and everything suggests their statement hasn't been rendered invalid at any point since.

The fact that the crucible area is completely exposed to outer fucking space with no shielding. Yes I know Bioware said "there was totally shielding" but they are known to lie fast and loose to fit their agenda and in the DLC to come out immediately after they claimed that. We were shown that it's not possible that there was shielding during the ending because all forms of Mass Effect shielding of that nature, give away visual clues. If space debris hit them, you can LITERALLY SEE THE SHIELD. But there is shit tons of debris surrounding the crucible from Reapers blowing up dreadnoughts.

Everything I've said here is mere breadcrumbs compared to the whole fucking colossal LOAF that is IT evidence. Forshadowing is more so the case the further back in the series you go. In 2 and 3 there are some pretty blatant things that outright say "Shepard is undergoing indoctrination" to the point that only a total retard could think anything else.

Which brings me to:

triggerwarning wrote:
nor does  these thematic elements clearly existing necessarily preclude bad writing in the ending.
Ohoho but that's where you're also horribly mistaken. Because IT when you actually look at it in the big picture and look at just the whole picture you see that it is a downright MASTERPIECE. I WILL say the series was a failure. But I'm not going to say it's because the ending itself was underlyingly bad writing. Rather it was insanely genius writing that didn't get properly fulfilled. It's not the the ending is bad, it's that it isn't complete.

It's not that the writing is bad. It's that it was so good, they failed to deliver. The whole thing went bust. The ending was NOT bad writing. Only a "literalist" as we've been calling them thinks like that. And FYI if you are one of them, we consider you totally retarded and that your opinion is not even 0.0000000000001% valid. That is where you stand in this place, if that's the way you think.

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Post by Terramine on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:41 am

I have my own theory for why the series failed. Based on what I know from the wealth of knowledge ITers have stacked up since the dawn of IT. From every discussion about bioware and their intentions that I overheard when I was lurking, etc. As well from my own independent research into Bioware and it's members, over the course of the series.

I don't know exactly when. It might've been after ME1 had been finished and they started working on it's sequel. But there was a split in ideology surrounding the game and the direction to take it in. Drew Karpyshyn and some others had an idea for where to take things. But somewhere along the line there was dissent from others to take it in a different direction. My best guess is the primary source of the dissent was Casey Hudson.

It's no surprise that Casey was there since the first game, and ended up hijacking the lead writer position from Drew by the third game. During the second game Mac Walters came in and I think he also had something to do with the split. So it's also not surprising that he was the other lead writer of ME3.

Both took over the story, but even by that point Drew Karpyshyn had already dictated and controlled so much. That even through the 3rd game they were being largely forced to carry Drew's torch. Even though they were opposed to his mentality.

In the end, Casey tried to push his own bullshit agenda particularly towards the ending of ME3. The fandom flips out, and he deals with the fallout of not delivering what Drew Karpyshyn originally intended. He picks the torch up a little bit with the EC, dropping in more content that Drew originally had in mind. Which came with Refuse which was a pretty solid confirmation of Indoctrination Theory. They also released Omega, Citadel, and Leviathan. Omega seemed to be avoiding the ending altogether and was probably also running on some of Drew's original ideas with the parallels to the ending. Leviathan also was definitely riddled with Drew's original intention. As it was highly centered around Indoctrination-type abilities and basically was one big reach around saying "Hey, if these leviathans can do this with their ability, conjure objects and people by twisting your senses. Then the Decision Chamber could totally also be generated by indoctrination. Especially since Indoctrination is a more perfected and powerful form of the Levi's abilities". Lastly Citadel was supposed to really push the envelop on making you question the reality around you. It felt dreamy, it felt unreal. There was a blatant intent to violate things previously established, to make you go "WHAT THE FUCK" such as Shep and the crew relaxing and partying on the CITADEL despite Joker previously commenting on such a notion being completely absurd and Shepard completely agreeing. Even the scene where Shepard casually turns off the news which is showing that the Reaper war, something that is heralded as nothing short of an extinction event for all species in the galaxy, is currently going on. Etc.

Basically you can see how Casey and Mac tried to hijack the story and replace Drew's torch with their own. But it backfired and they ended up backpedaling using DLC content to try and double back on the original Indoctrination intent. They already blew their chance to make a blunt reveal like Drew wanted. So the only way they could turn back was in a more subtle way.

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Post by Terramine on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:44 am

Make no mistake. I cannot fathom how or why Drew gave up the torch in the first place. Rifneno heralds him as innocent and wonderful in all this mess. That is not what I see.

I think the reason we were betrayed is because the man at the center of it all went corrupt too. He sold out and gave up on Mass Effect not realizing what his artistic expression meant or would end up meaning to us.

I feel like he is a disgrace to his own creation. He failed it because he didn't actually care about it that much.

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Post by windsurfing on Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:49 am

dorktainian wrote:(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 20 CuBNXKBVMAA0ZFZ

Awwwww I was half expecting Ai to stand for Androgyny Initiative.
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Post by CSSteele on Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:46 am

TriggerWarning, just ignore Terramine .. Ironic Particle, whatever name he's going by nowadays. We stopped reading his rants a long time ago. He's ... going to destroy the world, with his amazing physics bombs and stuff. He's a genius, far smarter than the rest of us.
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Post by triggerwarning on Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:58 pm

I lurked the original BSN thread and watched the videos. I'm sure I know but a fraction what some of these fine people here know, but that's truly irrelevant to my point.

Just because the series is filled with excellent writing that leads towards the general concept of the ending being brilliant, doesn't mean the actual ending was well written. It's not just incomplete, it's largely poorly written and the concept is not well executed. It doesn't work at all from a literal interpretation, and doesn't work as a hallucination in many ways.

To have a successful ending needed one of several things, none more important than a literal ending that made even a little bit of sense. There's a litany of unresolved issues with the hallucination interpretation. Great idea that was poorly written in my opinion.

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Post by Terramine on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:08 am

CSSteele wrote:TriggerWarning, just ignore Terramine .. Ironic Particle, whatever name he's going by nowadays. We stopped reading his rants a long time ago. He's ... going to destroy the world, with his amazing physics bombs and stuff. He's a genius, far smarter than the rest of us.
Whatever dipshit. Anyone who just mindly brushes someone off because they don't like a few of their opinions is just ASKING to also turn a blind eye to and against stuff he agrees with and supports. Thus becoming, your own enemy.

Self-sabotage is something for only the truly insane.

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Post by Terramine on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:16 am

triggerwarning wrote:I lurked the original BSN thread and watched the videos. I'm sure I know but a fraction what some of these fine people here know, but that's truly irrelevant to my point.

Just because the series is filled with excellent writing that leads towards the general concept of the ending being brilliant, doesn't mean the actual ending was well written. It's not just incomplete, it's largely poorly written  and the concept is not well executed.  It doesn't work at all from a literal interpretation, and doesn't work as a hallucination in many ways.
I love how you say you've seen a huge chunk of the evidence. But you go on to respond as if you still think all that evidence you saw wasn't compelling enough to outright prove IT as what was intended, when it totally does and you're just being a retard. No cookie for u.

It's not supposed to work from a literal interpretation. Because the literal interpretation is just WRONG. It's like saying "Oh gee, the ending to harry potter didn't validate this one thing that the writer had no intention of validating in the first place, THEREFORE BAD WRITING!!!!!".

And no, it works FLAWLESSLY and GENIUSELY as being inside Shepard's head. There are no holes to poke in that interepretation. So just... just...



triggerwarning wrote:
To have a successful ending needed one of several things, none more important than a literal ending that made even a little bit of sense. There's a litany of unresolved issues with the hallucination interpretation. Great idea that was poorly written in my opinion.
LMAO. No. No. It was not a poorly written idea at all. You say there are all these unresolved issues. But you haven't mentioned even one.

And this goes to show again, that I'm right about you and the others' indifference to you. They are oh so hilariously supporting someone who basically embodies exactly the kind of person we all think is a total retard. You don't belong here. You are supposed to be on the BSN in that circlejerk of retardation full of Synthesis supporters and literalists.

You are literally, the exact opposite of us. You are OUR ENEMY.

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Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
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Post by Terramine on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:20 am

CSSteele wrote:TriggerWarning, just ignore Terramine .. Ironic Particle, whatever name he's going by nowadays. We stopped reading his rants a long time ago. He's ... going to destroy the world, with his amazing physics bombs and stuff. He's a genius, far smarter than the rest of us.
Oi oi. You realize he's not an ITer? He's literally alongside all those dipshits that were on the BSN. He probably migrated here because the discussion over there got shut down.

They have infested us, and now you're acting like you're best buds with em. What is Rifneno doin in all this madness? Usually he's the first to give Literalists and Synthesis Supporters a savage beatdown.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
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Post by Terramine on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:26 am

@triggerwarning This song is dedicated to you LMAO:


_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
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Post by CSSteele on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:52 am

He's probably ignoring your spammy asshattery. Like I'm failing to do by responding.
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