(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

dorktainian wrote:

Why's the beam glowy light green?  Everyone knows glowy light green is the color of GOOD things, like the Borg or radioactive materials!  /s

Mass Effect Archives now has Shepard and Ryder story import, like the Dragon Age Keep.

Really. As if the series is continuing.

crash23 wrote:Mass Effect Archives now has Shepard and Ryder story import, like the Dragon Age Keep.

Really. As if the series is continuing.

Eh only way that matters if it continues in ME:A or "we going back to our galaxy luz"

Master Blaster wrote:

crash23 wrote:Mass Effect Archives now has Shepard and Ryder story import, like the Dragon Age Keep.

Really. As if the series is continuing.

Eh only way that matters if it continues in ME:A or "we going back to our galaxy luz"

Uh, that's my point. It is more likely that this is a sign of a continuing series, because the resources to put into this (or at least complete and release at this point post-MEA) would make more sense if there's internal decisions to have these choices matter. Bioware may be using the line of 'oh we just want you to store your decisions' but that's especially BS for MEA since nothing imports except a decision of the gender of Shepard. At best its a way to store MET decisions to refer to in remembering your time there before playing MEA, but it seems pointless for MEA decisions. So this tells me that its at least internally on the table that another Mass Effect game happens after Anthem and DA4, and that it may actually take in game decisions this time. That's what the DA team was much more outspoken about with the Keep.

It doesn't guarantee anything, but I don't see the point otherwise.


Also it isn't necessary to go back to the Milky Way at any point, though I'd say Bioware continues to lose their best opportunity by avoiding it, since while I can somewhat tolerate a 'fresh start' story (MEA) not doing it, I otherwise think the Milky Way is still full of story potential just waiting to be used. But anyway, its not necessary; MET decisions could have to do with a re-connection with Milky Way concepts/characters/communication without actually *going* there. You didn't need to return to the Quarian Floatilla itself to have ME2 decisions from there matter for an outcome of ME3.



comic spoilers

Spoiler:

Mass Effect NEEDS to return to the Milky Way. It never should have left it. MEA should be consigned to the garbage for all eternity.

The problem with Andromeda is that the trilogy for the most part left a bad taste when it came to leaving the ending just as it was. People didn't get closure they got a 10 minute slideshow showing the outcome of characters when all people wanted to know is "What happens now?". Even if you took the endings at face value as they were, there were a lot of "So what now?" Control & Synthesis led to "Wait, so Shep is dead...do i control the reapers? Do they control me? did i just fuck the galaxy with synthesis" Also destroy being "Wait Shep is alive...i don't find out? Where's my happy ending?".

Andromeda would of been fine and probably succeeded story wise had the trilogy had proper closure, it didn't. That's why we need to go back and stay in the milky way. Don't make a spin off (that's what ME: A is) title when you left your earlier story is such tatters.

Edit - I should add ME:A should of had better writing too. It was awful from what i saw, it needed more time. I just feel it wouldn't of been set up to fail so bad if the OT had better closure/IT ending/Bioware just stating outright the endings were literal.

WeAreHarbinger wrote:The problem with Andromeda is that the trilogy for the most part left a bad taste when it came to leaving the ending just as it was. People didn't get closure they got a 10 minute slideshow showing the outcome of characters when all people wanted to know is "What happens now?". Even if you took the endings at face value as they were, there were a lot of "So what now?" Control & Synthesis led to "Wait, so Shep is dead...do i control the reapers? Do they control me? did i just fuck the galaxy with synthesis" Also destroy being "Wait Shep is alive...i don't find out? Where's my happy ending?".

Andromeda would of been fine and probably succeeded story wise had the trilogy had proper closure, it didn't. That's why we need to go back and stay in the milky way. Don't make a spin off (that's what ME: A is) title when you left your earlier story is such tatters.

Edit - I should add ME:A should of had better writing too. It was awful from what i saw, it needed more time. I just feel it wouldn't of been set up to fail so bad if the OT had better closure/IT ending/Bioware just stating outright the endings were literal.

Mac Walters. That is all.

Rifneno wrote:Why's the beam glowy light green?  Everyone knows glowy light green is the color of GOOD things, like the Borg or radioactive materials!  /s

Actually, it really tends to be more dependent upon traditional color psychology. White and Black tend to have direct psychological associations with Morality, with White being Good and Black being Bad. This even deeper, applies to color combinations too, I've noticed. For instance Red is the color of Passion, Dominance, Activity, Assertiveness, Danger, Harm, etc. Combine white and red... well.. you get medical stuff. Nurse outfits, red crosses, etc. In games you get "medipacks" which tend to be white and red. If not the classic red hearts with perhaps some kind of white glow.



They can also be green, and particularly white and green. Green is directly psychologically associated with "nature" and "life". Look at eco friendly stuff, be it an eco friendly company or technology. It's always something like a green leaf on a white background. Recycling bins are white with a green cycle symbol or vice versa. Both green and white also independently have a psychological association with Knowledge and Learning, and has been scientifically proven to enhance a person's ability to comprehend text.




The Borg? Black and Green.




The Matrix? Black and Green.


Radioactivity? Black and Green.


There are some outliers, but only in the sense that the color combo in those cases seem to be reflectant of other qualities. For instance White has a psychological association with Sanitation and Purity, hence hospitals having a lot of plain white. But in the case of the example of the classical villainous Martians, their green and white phasers completely ERADICATE/SANITIZE whatever or whoever it hits. Which isn't inherently evil but in the hands of the Martians, is definitely evil. Likewise Black has a psychological association with Power. So for instance, Green Lanterns aren't evil. They are just a powerful force in the cosmos. In the newer Green Lantern movie, this is probably why they have such an edgy and "we are tough mofos" feel to them.

Now take this and look at the Reapers. You'll realize that they are all over the goddamn color smorgasbord. Except when it comes to Black and White. They in almost all cases, are predominantly associated with Black and any combination of the prime colors. Black and Blue, Black and Purple, Black and Red,  Black and Orange, Black and Yellow, Black and Purple. Note that Blue and Purple are actually the most predominant colors of the Reapers. So on the subject of those colors. Purple is the color of Rarity, and Royalty. Thus meaning the Reapers have a strong "Evil Regality" to them. Which would be recognized as perfectly fitting considering anyone who knows what the Reapers are like... knows they talk like menacing overlords. Likewise, Blue which tends to be seen more so in destroyers and such. Is associated with Passivity, Calmness, and most notably... productivity. That's right, the color blue is associated with Work. I mean after all, ever wondered why english speaking humans felt compelled to call the "working/productive class", BLUE COLLAR?

The only time this is completely flipped on it's head, is during the ending. Synthesis and Control are associated with Green+White and Blue+White respectively, while Destroy is associated with Black+Red. Which is quite interesting, considering every other facet about this situation is backwards from the truth. The choices are a reverse of RGB. As well, the reaper collective consciousness tries to deceive you by making Destroy out to be Bad and Control and Synthesis as the Good choices.

By the way. I guess to explain my past confusion on the ending. I still fully believe all 3 choices are basically, just Reaper bullshit. I mean quite literally, the decision chamber is a nonexistent place for sure. Which can only be explained by Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard. There are 2 main possibilities here. Either all 3 choices, are not real at all. They do not do anything. Except determine the fate of Shepard's consciousness. If you choose synthesis, you get indoctrinated. You embrace the view that the entire galaxy should be "purified" and integrated with the Reapers. Thus Shepard would wake up and start saying "Hey Guys, I think the Reapers are right, we should hand ourselves over to them!" which would be completely out of character because just 2 seconds ago Shepard was barging in completely bent on destroying the Reapers.

Control ultimately justifies the Reapers to uphold their royal rule over the galaxy. Because here you are saying "It's okay to control other intelligent beings against their will." The Reapers may be the bad guys, but if we resort to the same methods they use, then we become just as bad as them. This is literally what The Illusive Man embodies, no mistaking it. It would be equivalent of, if instead of abolishing/destroying slavery in America, the Blacks overpowered the Whites and enslaved them out of revenge. If you are that powerful, why wouldn't you just destroy the concept of oppression unto itself? Why become the oppressors?

Destroy is what it is. It's a "Destroy the Reapers" option. But it's more like "Trying to Destroy the Reapers, will result in your own demise instead." option, because all that really happens is Shepard destroys himself, LITERALLY. But there's more to it than that, and it ties in with Low EMS and High EMS. I'll come back to this in a second.

The second main possibility is that although the decision chamber and the choices aren't real. They tell harbinger what choice to make himself. He has control over the Citadel himself. Not Shepard. So when you choose synthesis, that signifies to him that Shepard is ready to be integrated into the new Reaper. Which WILL in fact be built in/at the citadel. The Catalyst is a huge Eezio fuel tank to create the special Reaper Core that has infinite power and never runs out. This makes sense why then, the writers had Anderson suggest the possibility that they were making a Reaper there. I mean after all, why WERE they collecting bodies around the beam that leads to the Citadel? We know that the Reapers only collect a lot of bodies, for 1 reason alone. Anderson who is not fully indoctrinated, is a thematic conduit to give the player a heads up to what is really going on here. By time we reach the decision chamber, it's exactly what we suspected... but it's disguised. Synthesis is just the pinnacle of embracing becoming a Reaper. But it becomes hard to distinguish this given everything we are presented.

Control then leads to Shepard being relegated to a mere mindless puppet which would mean that he would only be good in a Destroyer class Reaper, or as a Husk.

As for destroy. There's no reason shooting the tube should actually lead to the destruction of the Reapers. It's probably at best just a failsafe to destroy the citadel and anything and anyone inside of it to ensure that thing isn't a threat to the Reapers. However, given the difference between High EMS and Low EMS Destroy. It's highly likely that Destroy is the only way out specifically because while it doesn't destroy the Reapers. Taking the choice head on and having the willpower to see through the deception, is the only way for Shepard to break out of the indoctrination once and for all, and to wake up,get back up, survive, and continue the fight.

Refuse in this case just leads to Shepard becoming locked inside his mind aka Comatose. Since no resolution is made at all, Shepard cannot get out of this situation. He's just stuck inside the decision chamber until his body cannot sustain his consciousness any longer, and he dies.

Green is bad in Mass Effect. They pretty much hammer that in several times during the trilogy.

-Bartender gives Shepard a green drink which makes him/her fall on the floor.
-Synthesis is green.
-During the Overlord DLC, anything under the control of the rogue AI is green.

Just to name a few.

magnetite wrote:Green is bad in Mass Effect. They pretty much hammer that in several times during the trilogy.

-Bartender gives Shepard a green drink which makes him/her fall on the floor.
-Synthesis is green.
-During the Overlord DLC, anything under the control of the rogue AI is green.

Just to name a few.

Yeah but if we put that much stock in examples like that. Then why isn't Refuse the best choice cause Yellow cures an entire species? Orange/Yellow is also the color of Medigel, Omnitools, etc. I know Refuse doesn't necessarily have an explicitly associated color. But people were automatically compelled to associate it with that color, and Yellow is the other color besides Green that has a vastly significant predominance in this series. So if there is a 4th kinda "off the beaten path" choice, it would be the most fitting color to assign it probably. Yet Refuse ISN'T the right choice, or at least only equal to Low EMS Destroy and second best to High EMS Destroy.

-To get a bit specific. The bar is a bit dark. The drink beyond that is just "Green". A green drink served in a dark and more blackish themed place, a place that is kind of reclusive and hidden away. You gotta remember context and environment. Because environment determines to a large extent, the nature of what is being served. You don't go to Hell and get fed Water, if you know what I'm sayin.

-Like the Martian's phasers. The morality of Overlord had nothing to do with the AI and the technology unto itself. But rather how it was used, how David was exploited, etc. Otherwise I think the white and green in this case was meant more so to just symbolize Transcendent technology and knowledge. The whole DLC had a second major layer besides the moral paradigm, to it. Which was Shepard seeing first hand what it was like to see the world through a Synthetic-Organic Hybrid's eyes. Remember, the Geth themselves do not perceive shapes and colors. They view things purely in code. It's like what Shepard saw, but without the shapes. It's like looking at the matrix's code itself, directly. Compared to Neo being able to see the code of the Matrix, but in a way his organic mind comprehends. This is significant because it helps him understand the perspective of the Reapers. Which is that altho they see the external world for what it is, it becomes very bland and devoid of special value because everything looks the same and is just basic shapes. All they see is code still, while simultaneously staring you in the face. Cold, calculated, ruthless.

-Synthesis, again. The color Green is associated with Peace and Relaxation. Synthesis is in fact, peace, just by how it's described. The same "peace" Saren told Shepard in the first game. But remember, the whole point to the Reapers indoctrinating you to believe you can make peace with them. Is a deception. So yeah, Synthesis is green, but when it comes to Green and the Reapers. The closest they could ever actually get with that association is obviously Black and Green, unanimously, across the board. The Reapers intuitively know when interfacing with Shepard's mind, that his mind... his human mind. Has evolved to perceive White as Good. So in the decision chamber, they are deliberately representing it that way. Despite the fact that they intuitively know that from our perceptions, they are actually what we consider(subjectively or otherwise), evil. They are black to us. They both literally associate themselves with the color black exclusively, and also they associate themselves with ways of thinking that we consider wrong.

Peace is a concept. for the universe to grow and evolve there needs to be conflict, but in opposition to order.

The moment the reapers offer an everlasting solution it should be viewed with suspicion.

Ok. Let's look back at Starjar for a moment? Why should we be wary of it?

Shepard : "where am I?"
Starjar : "The Citadel. It's my home"
Shepard : "Who are you?"
Starjar : "I am the Catalyst"

Now I've said before, at this point Shepard is the Catalyst. He is the only one in the room who can affect change here.

Shepard : "I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst?"
Starjar : "No, The Citadel is a part of me!"

The Citadel is a part of Starjar. Now it does not take a huge leap of logic to think the Relays are ALSO a part of starjar.
So now we're talking to something which is vaster than anything we can really comprehend. It covers the entire milky way but nobody ever asked why it covered the whole milky way. What if, the relays are placed such that all organic life can be wiped out in one single strike?

If we go back to the temple on Thessia, we witness 3 x patterns when talking to the AI in the temple on the Asari homeworld. 3 x patterns. 1 for each choice. It basically gives us a hint that the pattern is not fixed and depends upon an individual choice.

There is no Starjar, IMO.

magnetite wrote:There is no Starjar, IMO.

“None but ourselves can free our minds.” Bob Marley

Do not try and think you can convince the Starchild of an "alternate solution", that's impossible.
Instead only try to realize the truth. There is no Starchild.

magnetite wrote:

Do not try and think you can convince the Starchild of an "alternate solution", that's impossible.
Instead only try to realize the truth. There is no Starchild.

so you advocate refusal? Interesting.

I was trying to rephrase what that kid said in the Matrix and kind of flubbed it. Swap out alternative solution to even think you can reason with something that doesn't actually exist.

Reloads save file, Starchild isn't there. If he was real, then reloading the save would have him standing where he is when you regain control of Shepard again. See what I mean.

The game takes the time to render all the level assets, except for the Starchild.

magnetite wrote:I was trying to rephrase what that kid said in the Matrix and kind of flubbed it. Swap out alternative solution to even think you can reason with something that doesn't actually exist.

Reloads save file, Starchild isn't there. If he was real, then reloading the save would have him standing where he is when you regain control of Shepard again. See what I mean.

interesting. My take on the bullshitttery that is mass effect 3's ending has shifted from genious writing, to (after seeing the wonderful job they did with Andromeda's writing) just plain car crash writing.

I always found it interesting though that the game put you back to Cronos Station after you completed the game, hinting that what you had just seen wasn't entirely accurate and giving you the chance to re-examine it.

magnetite wrote:There is no Starjar, IMO.

Well obviously. There's no technology in the entire trilogy to explain how a VI or AI can access someone's memories aside from when that person is somehow connected to some sort of technology. The ONLY explanation, literally, is that Shep has Reaper Tech inside of him. Enough of it that Harbinger or whoever can access Shep's memories.

In other words, the ONLY explanation is that Shepard is experiencing one of the last major symptoms of indoctrination: Auditory and Visual Hallucinations.

If Shepard were to be indoctrinated, something like Reaperboy would be an absolute requirement.

Btw I bought an Xbox One. I got Mass Effect Andromeda and I essentially just begun playing it. I have to say, I'm not so sure about all of this. The idea that it's just some sort of haphazard scapegoat. Back when I was watching playthroughs the fact that they went back to the Dark Energy plot rather bluntly stood out to me. Now that I'm playing it myself, I'm noticing some more shit that is striking.

For example despite being told that the player character wouldn't be "another shepard". Right at the beginning of the game the character ends up inexplicably MERGING WITH AN AI. So here we go yet again with the Organic-Synthetic Hybrid bullshit. Something that was obviously very intertwined with what made Shepard "unique". Especially in the regard that as Rif has pointed out, it's virtually certain that Lazarus project involved Reaper Synthetics. Which implies multiple things, but for the sake of this comparison I'm actually going to ignore the Reaper part of that equation.

Not only is it implied that Shepard is basically already Reaperkin(lol), but also that the reason Shepard is able to be revived in the first place is because the Synthetics have become slightly more predominant than the Biologics. Or perhaps more apt to say that his biological aspects are running off synthetics, rather than the other way around. The synthetics are like mobile implanted LIFE SUPPORT. Life support that allows the rest of the body to heal because the synthetics are forcing the brain to be alive well past the point of natural life.

Now look at what we see in Andromeda with the protag Ryder. They get merged with SAM, but not only that. Similar to Shepard it becomes obvious the character's BRAIN DIES after not being able to breathe cause of a broke/leaking helmet. You can see their synapses shrivel up. So what SAM, the AI, does. Is merges with Ryder so he can force the brain to heal by sending it's own synthetic "thoughts" as impulses through the brain.

There's too much goin on in this game for it to be coincidence. It seems like nonsense in and of itself, but when you actually try to follow the story and follow the themes. It's almost like it's trying to lead us to some sort of conclusion about the main trilogy. It's like bioware saying "look since you guys still didn't get it, look over here and we'll spell it out for you a different way".

Random but I got to the Citadel Ripoff and I end up walking past this group that starts talking about people who died in the stasis pods. What struck me was the very last thing the main guy says:

-Andromeda is about New Beginnings, not about hosting funerals.

Meanwhile, everyone in the group is looking at the player. This stood out to me because one could see it as more of a general statement. Taken out of context it sounds like an even further smash at the idea that the original trilogy was never meant to end happily. Because you can see it as "Andromeda is about New Beginnings, ME1-3 is about hosting funerals."

Okay, now I know some shit is fucking up. The way SAM talks about himself is fucking suspicious as all hell.

He talks as if he wasn't built by anyone in the initiative. Or not by anyone that was going to make the trip theirself. He says his intelligence transcends anything anyone in the initiative expects because he gains intelligence through Human Experience. He talks as if he was just straight up built this way, and considering the way he works... well no shit. He'd have to be. You don't just magically get the ability to integrate with organic physiology regardless of how you were built. It had to be an intended feature by whoever built him.

There's only 2 explanations here:
-This is further evidence that Cerberus is really the ones behind all of this.
-Or outright, SAM is a Reaper AI. He DOES look very similar to the Catalyst AI. He was built to coincide with the pathfinder's biology to essentially make them a more fully realized "Pathfinder". Pathfinder is the kind of Avatar Archetypological Naming we see with both the Protheans and the Reapers.

Well he DOES claim that Alec Ryder built him. But that doesn't make one bit of damn sense, and if he told Alec one thing and the protag another... well... We'd never know. Even if Alec himself thought he built him, he gave this AI free range over his entire physiology. That would include his memories. We'll see what else I find...

Edit: LOL at the Tempest being another Normandy. Altho the name choice is... strange...

I actually am leaning towards 2 primary theories about this game.

For now I will just say the one I think is the more likely of the 2. I essentially think Andromeda may very well be the answer to how we can defeat the Reapers. Even if it takes them however long to come back to the Milky Way. That's likely the point to having the races of the galaxy escape to somewhere where they find tech that theoretically could advance them to the same level or higher than, Reapers. They develop divine-like levels of advancement, and then they come back and rape the Reapers in the ass. Even if everyone they knew had died at that point, it would be unfathomably just revenge.

And hell who knows. Considering Reaper tech can bring people back from the dead. Imagine what we could do after developing within Andromeda.

What I think is most striking. Is that essentially the Remnant shows what happens when a galaxy develops WITHOUT something like the Reapers. The level of tech is on the same level as Reaper tech but is completely different in nature.

dorktainian wrote:interesting.  My take on the bullshitttery that is mass effect 3's ending has shifted from genious writing, to (after seeing the wonderful job they did with Andromeda's writing) just plain car crash writing.

What the fuck are you on about?  You say that like MEA is related to ME3 in anything other than EA trying to squeeze more money of the franchise name.  The only person we know of that was involved with the original trilogy that was involved with MEA was Mack The Hack.  Which is literally worse than no one at all.  MEA not only wasn't produced by a different team, it was produced by an entirely different fucking studio!  It's one step above fan fiction.  The American Super Mario Brothers 2 of sci fi.