The Architect!

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The Architect!

Post by HYR 2.1 on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:35 pm

Given the opinions I know of many people here about the final decision of ME3, I'm awfully curious what the general opinion around here is of the final decision in DA:A (the Architect); to those who've played both games, I think the parallels between them should go without saying. In fact, IT just about immediately came to mind when I first played this part.



For my part, I approach both of these decisions about the same way. In DA:A, I support the Architect. He's a piece of work, no doubt, but I think it would be foolhardy to dispose of what he's offering.

... annnd, GO! Basketball


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Re: The Architect!

Post by Norlond on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:41 pm

I kill him

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Re: The Architect!

Post by Byne on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:43 pm

I also support the architect, even though I probably shouldnt.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:47 pm

After having played Dragon Age 2's Legacy DLC, it seems obvious to me that...

1. The Architect is one of the magisters who invaded the Black City, whether he remembers it or not.
2. Utha and Seranni are thralls just like the dragon thralls we have to fight in the silverite mine and just like wardens being influenced by Corypheus.
3. The reason you can't save or kill Seranni is so that the Architect's spirit can possess her body in the event that you kill his current one, thus securing his presence in future games.

The Architect must be destroyed, but you don't actually have the means to do so in DA:A.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:44 pm

Maybe I should play DA:Awakening... sometime..

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Re: The Architect!

Post by Rifneno on Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:25 pm

Killing him is the right call.  I'm saying that as fact, not opinion.

First, if you read the novels, you know his first "solution" to the Blight problem was to infect every living creature with the taint.  No humans, no elves, no kossith would be left.  It would be nothing but darkspawn.  This is a creature that needs killing right the fuck now.

Second, he's an awakened magister.  Clearly.  Look at Corypheus.  Look at the Architect.  They're as different as any two humans, and that's it.  They're both clearly the same thing.  And his story is what, he was just born totally different than the other darkspawn?  Sure.  Right.  If someone came up to you with a dog that could talk and think like a human and just said "he was just born different than every other one ever", would you believe such a load of shit?  Of course not.  And it's no different here.

Killing him is the right call.  Period.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by DSharrah on Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:29 pm

Initially just playing Awakening I thought that sparing the Architecht was the right thing to do...then I discovered the back story information that Rif pointed out and felt like a complete ass...now the Architecht dies every time.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by HYR 2.1 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:52 pm

Rifneno wrote:Killing him is the right call.  I'm saying that as fact, not opinion.
And by extension, preventing the ensuing hit to Darkspawn's #s is "the right call?"


First, if you read the novels, you know his first "solution" to the Blight problem was to infect every living creature with the taint.  No humans, no elves, no kossith would be left.  It would be nothing but darkspawn.  This is a creature that needs killing right the fuck now.
Well it's not as if I -- or anyone else, for that matter -- give a damn about his people. Up to this point, the Warden's only goal in life is killing more Darkspawn. So it's a bit of a double-standard to expect him to care about anyone else. You don't even see the people (species) of Thedas showing any concern for each other until there's a Blight. We've done nothing to warrant his concern (except maybe if you do let him live).

It doesn't matter now, anyway. That plan has long since failed and been scrapped.


Second, he's an awakened magister.  Clearly.  Look at Corypheus.  Look at the Architect.  They're as different as any two humans, and that's it.  They're both clearly the same thing.  And his story is what, he was just born totally different than the other darkspawn?  Sure.  Right.  If someone came up to you with a dog that could talk and think like a human and just said "he was just born different than every other one ever", would you believe such a load of shit?  Of course not.  And it's no different here.
To say nothing of the fact that that answer would technically be correct, it's entirely possible (and even quite likely) that the owner legitimately does not have a better explanation than that.

Case in point.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:12 am

...the darkspawn as a whole are unambiguously evil. You can't seriously put the horde on equal footing with the other races of Thedas. Their very existence is as a parasitic disease.

And you know this.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Rifneno on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:19 am

HYR 2.1 wrote:And by extension, preventing the ensuing hit to Darkspawn's #s is "the right call?"
They're not less in numbers, they're just sapient now. If the darkspawn are this dangerous when they're dumb as rabid animals, how dangerous are they going to be with human-like intelligence?

Well it's not as if I -- or anyone else, for that matter -- give a damn about his people. Up to this point, the Warden's only goal in life is killing more Darkspawn. So it's a bit of a double-standard to expect him to care about anyone else. You don't even see the people (species) of Thedas showing any concern for each other until there's a Blight. We've done nothing to warrant his concern (except maybe if you do let him live).

It doesn't matter now, anyway. That plan has long since failed and been scrapped.
What the fuck parody is logic is this? His horrible plan to destroy life failed, so it doesn't matter? Yes it still goddamn matters! Lex Luthor is still the bad guy even after Superman stopped him from killing billions of people because he tried to kill billions of people! Oh yeah, Luthor tried it again (and again and again), and more than likely so will the Architect.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by HYR 2.1 on Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:45 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:...the darkspawn as a whole are unambiguously evil.
In DA:O? Sure. In DA:A? False.

And that, as Riferno would say, is "fact, not opinion" (except I actually know what a fact is).
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Re: The Architect!

Post by HYR 2.1 on Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:47 pm

Rifneno wrote:
HYR 2.1 wrote:And by extension, preventing the ensuing hit to Darkspawn's #s is "the right call?"
They're not less in numbers, they're just sapient now.
I should rephrase: the ensuing hit to hostile Darkspawn presence in the Deep Roads.


If the darkspawn are this dangerous when they're dumb as rabid animals, how dangerous are they going to be with human-like intelligence?
If they're intelligent, they actually get to choose what they'll be. Those that choose not to be dangerous are obviously not a problem. Those that choose violence would have been violent anyway.

And even if we were to *suppose* that their newfound intelligence makes them more individually dangerous than before, this is balanced out by what they lose as a whole: their numbers are weakened by defectors, and their unity is weakened by a new ideological schism... which is nice.


What the fuck parody is logic is this? His horrible plan to destroy life failed, so it doesn't matter? Yes it still goddamn matters! Lex Luthor is still the bad guy even after Superman stopped him from killing billions of people because he tried to kill billions of people! Oh yeah, Luthor tried it again (and again and again), and more than likely so will the Architect.
Fallacy. It's not "more than likely" he'll do something simply because he once tried (and failed) to do it in the past. And again, he's not still trying to accomplish that. He's moved on to an entirely different plan: giving all Darkspawn freedom from the Old God's calling though 'Warden blood.

Also, the Architect is not a 2D cartoon-villain like Lex Luthor is.

And lastly, ask yourself if you'd wipe the Darkspawn off the face of Thedas if you had the option to do so. If the answer is "yes," then it's pretty disingenuous to expect any differently from the Architect. He's just choosing his people over everyone else, as you would for your own.

Truth be told, I'm only even siding with him so he'll continue to weaken their horde.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:12 pm

I do not believe any level of coexistence is possible between Darkspawn and the other races, the taint makes that pretty much a certainty.

However I do believe the Architects motives are genuine, the problem is just that he does not see the problem in what he is doing. His attempts and methods might easily end up looking horrific to the other races, but he does not think it as such.

It is kind of like the Darkspawn messenger from DA: A who you have the option of sparing, who helps out wounded and such but spreading the taint at the same time. The goal is good enough, but there are things that insure that trying to reach that goal will easily cause far more harm than good.

Still I agree with HYR 2.1 to a point. Darkspawn who are awakened are Darkspawn not fighting us (at least not directly, for the most part). It is still risky, no doubts there, but between the Architect and more Darkspawn for the horde, I at least for now see him as the smaller threat. Might not stay that way though.


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Re: The Architect!

Post by Rifneno on Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:53 pm

HYR 2.1 wrote:I should rephrase: the ensuing hit to hostile Darkspawn presence in the Deep Roads.
Yeah, the Architect's darkspawn were so friendly.

If they're intelligent, they actually get to choose what they'll be. Those that choose not to be dangerous are obviously not a problem. Those that choose violence would have been violent anyway.

And even if we were to *suppose* that their newfound intelligence makes them more individually dangerous than before, this is balanced out by what they lose as a whole: their numbers are weakened by defectors, and their unity is weakened by a new ideological schism... which is nice.
By your logic, monkeys should be more dangerous than humans.
Spoiler:
They're not: humans are way more dangerous!

Most of the Architect's darkspawn were hostile to humans. You're one gullible son of a bitch if you believed the Architect's line about not realizing their "delegation" would be perceived as an attack. Did he ever explain those creepyass clones he was making? How about why they were smashing warden's legs and leaving them in unspeakable agony for shits and giggles? His plan isn't even remotely what he told you it was. He just came up with some drivel because you broke out of his traps and he was trying lying as a last resort.

Fallacy. It's not "more than likely" he'll do something simply because he once tried (and failed) to do it in the past. And again, he's not still trying to accomplish that. He's moved on to an entirely different plan: giving all Darkspawn freedom from the Old God's calling though 'Warden blood.
And both DAO and DAA were cleaning up that asshole's mess. So it's apparent that plan has failed. I'm sure his next plan won't be all horrible. </sarcasm>

Also, the Architect is not a 2D cartoon-villain like Lex Luthor is.
LOL!

... Oh wow, you're serious?

And lastly, ask yourself if you'd wipe the Darkspawn off the face of Thedas if you had the option to do so. If the answer is "yes," then it's pretty disingenuous to expect any differently from the Architect. He's just choosing his people over everyone else, as you would for your own.
His "people" are a virulent and parasitic disease. There can be no co-existence because the very nature of darkspawn corrupts all life around it. I don't care what should be expected of him; I just want him dead. Like I want all darkspawn.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by HYR 2.1 on Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:47 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:I do not believe any level of coexistence is possible between Darkspawn and the other races, the taint makes that pretty much a certainty.
Well, I don't recall Darkspawn/non-'spawn coexistence being the goal, anyway.

On a sidenote, whose idea was it to have light-gray text in white textboxes when posting replies?


Rifneno wrote:By your logic, monkeys should be more dangerous than humans.
Spoiler:
They're not: humans are way more dangerous!
Le sigh... that is a false-equivalence of massive proportions. I shouldn't have to explain how, but if there's any doubt... monkeys are not all collectively commanded to kill people. They also are not armed with the same types of weapons and armor humans, as Darkspawn actually are.


Most of the Architect's darkspawn were hostile to humans. You're one gullible son of a bitch if you believed the Architect's line about not realizing their "delegation" would be perceived as an attack.
Hardly! You're the one who has brought up the repeated failures in his work. If we're to believe he is a moron (you'll notice I'm not disputing this point), then him sending Darkspawn to the 'Keep and thinking nothing of it does fit our theory quite nicely.

So YES, he's an idiot, but a useful one. Kind of like that spirit warrior from this episode.


Did he ever explain those creepyass clones he was making?
Nope, sadly, we lacked the option to ask.


How about why they were smashing warden's legs and leaving them in unspeakable agony for shits and giggles?
iirc, he explained that those Wardens were already dead, and so he drained their corpses for blood because... that's what he's doing. Using 'Warden blood for his "Joining" ritual.

But let me guess, you don't believe that explanation either. Never mind the fact that, when given the unconscious Warden-Commander's and his/her companions' bodies, he does not bleed them out in the same vein (pardon the pun) when he very easily could have.


His plan isn't even remotely what he told you it was. He just came up with some drivel because you broke out of his traps and he was trying lying as a last resort.
Despite all the evidence to the contrary?


And both DAO and DAA were cleaning up that asshole's mess. So it's apparent that plan has failed. I'm sure his next plan won't be all horrible. </sarcasm>
What difference does it make how/why the last Blight started? They take place every now and again anyway and we're helpless to stop it in any preemptive fashion. There's only one plan we know of that makes any attempt at preventing the onset of a Blight: releasing the Darkspawn from the Old Gods' call, and that was a plan innovated by -- guess who? -- the Architect (though killing him pisses it away).


Also, the Architect is not a 2D cartoon-villain like Lex Luthor is.
LOL!

... Oh wow, you're serious?[/quote]
Are you?

I'm not the one posting "LOL!" as a response.

Though this is not the first time you've lacked a serious/thoughtful response.


I don't care what should be expected of him; I just want him dead. Like I want all darkspawn.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:09 pm

"Dragon Age III Ending: The Warden/Hawke/New Character will have to decide whether or not to A: Destroy the Darkspawn B: Control the Darkspawn, or C: Combine the Darkspawn with Sandal." -Youtube

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Re: The Architect!

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:46 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:It is kind of like the Darkspawn messenger from DA: A who you have the option of sparing, who helps out wounded and such but spreading the taint at the same time. The goal is good enough, but there are things that insure that trying to reach that goal will easily cause far more harm than good.
The Epilogue slide says that there was no relation between the two, doesn't it?
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:59 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:It is kind of like the Darkspawn messenger from DA: A who you have the option of sparing, who helps out wounded and such but spreading the taint at the same time. The goal is good enough, but there are things that insure that trying to reach that goal will easily cause far more harm than good.
The Epilogue slide says that there was no relation between the two, doesn't it?
Man, your reading comprehension is pathetic.  No, it says that no relation was FOUND.  It's quite clear he was the cause.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:03 am

Rifneno wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:It is kind of like the Darkspawn messenger from DA: A who you have the option of sparing, who helps out wounded and such but spreading the taint at the same time. The goal is good enough, but there are things that insure that trying to reach that goal will easily cause far more harm than good.
The Epilogue slide says that there was no relation between the two, doesn't it?
Man, your reading comprehension is pathetic.  No, it says that no relation was FOUND.  It's quite clear he was the cause.
If no evidence was found, then the cause is not determined.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:10 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:It is kind of like the Darkspawn messenger from DA: A who you have the option of sparing, who helps out wounded and such but spreading the taint at the same time. The goal is good enough, but there are things that insure that trying to reach that goal will easily cause far more harm than good.
The Epilogue slide says that there was no relation between the two, doesn't it?
Man, your reading comprehension is pathetic.  No, it says that no relation was FOUND.  It's quite clear he was the cause.
If no evidence was found, then the cause is not determined.
How fucking stupid are you?  Jesus.  It's like talking to a wall.  A creationist wall.

"If the Warden chooses to let him go after the battle in the City of Amaranthine, the city soon buzzes with stories of a cloaked but lisping figure who helps travelers in danger. At the same time, reports of isolated cases of the darkspawn disease emerge, but no one connects the two."

They didn't find a cause because they didn't know the cloaked figure was a sapient darkspawn.  We do know that.  So any of us who isn't a complete moron (i.e. everyone except you) can put 2 and 2 together and figure it out.  You, however, will continue to put 2 and 2 together and get grapefruit.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:18 am

A little extreme of a response for me just saying no solid evidence of correlation between the two was found, but okay.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:48 pm

Selim Bradley wrote:A little extreme of a response for me just saying no solid evidence of correlation between the two was found, but okay.
Not extreme enough.  Your inability to figure out the utterly obvious is absolutely staggering.  The writers were telling us flat out that he's the cause.  In one paragraph, they tell us that there's a sapient darkspawn running around incognito and that there were scattered cases of blight illness that people didn't know the cause of.  The writer, from their all-knowing position, tells us these two bits in the same paragraph.  And you think that was, what, to save time?  They were just letting us know about random happenings around Amaranthine that were totally unrelated?  I'm in awe that your brain is producing enough energy to keep your vital organs functioning.


God, I hate idiots.  I hate them so much.

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Re: The Architect!

Post by RavenEyry on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:13 pm

The darkspawn have no taint, that's just fereldan propaganda to justify calling the enemy 'bad guys'.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:28 pm

To be clear, I did suspect him as the cause, Rif. However, I simply don't commit to it fully in case there are other explanations. If not taking things at face value makes me an idiot, then everyone here, including you, is just as stupid as you think I am.
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Re: The Architect!

Post by Master Blaster on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:47 am

Rifneno wrote:Killing him is the right call.  I'm saying that as fact, not opinion.

First, if you read the novels, you know his first "solution" to the Blight problem was to infect every living creature with the taint.  No humans, no elves, no kossith would be left.  It would be nothing but darkspawn.  This is a creature that needs killing right the fuck now.

Second, he's an awakened magister.  Clearly.  Look at Corypheus.  Look at the Architect.  They're as different as any two humans, and that's it.  They're both clearly the same thing.  And his story is what, he was just born totally different than the other darkspawn?  Sure.  Right.  If someone came up to you with a dog that could talk and think like a human and just said "he was just born different than every other one ever", would you believe such a load of shit?  Of course not.  And it's no different here.

Killing him is the right call.  Period.

Also It created the FIFTH BLIGHT! I mean he wanted EVERYONE to have GREY WARDEN BLOOD! That thing would have killed so many people. Also it caused the mages to become more evil in the eyes of the Templars, why because it CREATED mages to use to spread the taint of Darkspawn blood.


Last edited by Master Blaster on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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