Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Here's the OP from BSN. And here's the link http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/16519456


After having pondered the endings for much more time than I care to admit, I've reached a conclusion. Based on what the Catalyst says, what he doesn't say, and how he acts I've reached the conclusion that the Catalyst is very similar to a "Dumb" AI from Halo's lore.

First things first, "dumb" is not any sort of commentary on the Catalyst's intelligence. It simply a moniker attached to AI's in Halo lore that cannot outgrow their original programming as opposed to those who can, "Smart" AI's.

What proof do I have for this? One of the most contested points about the Catalyst is why he doesn't acknlowlwedge the end results of Rannoch's story arc. If peace is attained or the quarians win, the Catalyst's assertions become laughable. Why doesn't he acknowledge this? If he is a "Dumb" AI equivalent than it is because he can't. He can't change himself despite evidence that he is wrong. This also ties into the "Crucible changed me, created...new possibilities". The Crucible is able to alter his core programming to enable the different solutions, but it does not change him enough for him to realize the error in his reasoning. Furthermore his belief that the Reapers cannot be beaten conventionally is further proof of this. While it may be impossible for our current cycle to win conventionally each cycle climbs further than the last. Each one improves and is a larger threat than the one before it. It stands to reason that if this trend continues evantually the races if the galaxy will be able to achieve conventional victory. The Catalyst however seems to be stuck in his own loop, "organics rise, create synthetics, conflict emerges, we interrupt before organics destroy synthe- I mean before organics lose". He cannot seem to comprehend that his logic that may have been applicable in the past, is no longer relevant.

TL:DR. The Catalyst is the equivalent of a "dumb" AI because he cannot escape his own progr.amming despite evidence that his assertions are wrong.

thoughts?

I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.

could be something similar i suppose, although wouldnt that just make him a VI? one of the defining characteristics of AI's in mass effect is that they can change their views on something, its part of why they are so feared

"Child" is here to manipulate and confound player. Avert the player from his/her goal. Indoctrinate Shepard as you will. Thing's form alone is enough to show that it is manipulating player.

"Child" is also capable of lying. I don't think that counts as a dumb AI.

Just look at my avatar and claim that "Child" is not malicious at all.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.

EDI while locked by Cerberus is a good example. She was really intelligent, but couldn't "evolve" past what she was already programmed to do until the locks were removed.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.

. Shackled EDI

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

. It depends on what he meant by die. If he meant Shelard would be killed by the Destroy process that's probably a lie, but saying that Shepard's descendant will be doomed, that's his faulty wiring so to speak

Steelcan wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.

. Shackled EDI

She was limited in what information she could give Shepard and her access to the ships system, but nothing suggest it limited her intelligence or the conclusions she could draw.

So, one way of changing the way someone else thinks is to make your assertion over and over again irregardless of evidence to the contrary. Combined with exhaustion and physical trauma, the subject becomes "reprogrammed" to believe your assertions. That's why the question and answer session went on like it did; the Catalyst is there to make you forget your own beliefs and instead accept his own point of view. It's shocking just how well it works, too.

I don't think that the Reaper Intelligence would be unable to reprogram itself in general since the Reapers as a whole seem eminently adaptable. I would, however, consider the possibility that the Intelligence is unable to reprogram a set of core directives, Robocop style. Yet, I find it more likely that the "Catalyst" presents a logical fallacy to expedite the breakdown in Shepard's own logic.

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.

Gummy wrote:

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.

"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.

Lombus wrote:

Gummy wrote:

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.

"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.

He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.

Selim Bradley wrote:

Lombus wrote:

Gummy wrote:

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.

"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.

He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

. This. He also doesn't say the geth will die, he just says all synthetics will be targeted

That one is not entirely true Steelcan, pre EC it does say that the Geth will die, but that line is cut with the EC.

Selim Bradley wrote:

Lombus wrote:

Gummy wrote:

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.

"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.

He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

Gummy wrote:Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.

He's hinting at it nonetheless...why would he even mention that Shepard had implants if that would make no difference at all?

Lombus wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

Lombus wrote:

Gummy wrote:

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.

"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.

He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

Gummy wrote:Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.

He's hinting at it nonetheless...why would he even mention that Shepard had implants if that would make no difference at all?

To confuse Shepard, like we all think he's trying to do.

Yes, confuse, but the point is still: it doesn't lie with what it says. I don't think BW would have just said shep dies in destroy if they wanted it to lie, but they purposely made an exception here.

Gummy wrote:That one is not entirely true Steelcan, pre EC it does say that the Geth will die, but that line is cut with the EC.

. What does he say if the geth are dead pre-EC?

It just leaves it out like it is now.

Selim Bradley wrote:

Lombus wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

Lombus wrote:

Gummy wrote:

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.

"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.

He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

Gummy wrote:Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.

He's hinting at it nonetheless...why would he even mention that Shepard had implants if that would make no difference at all?

To confuse Shepard, like we all think he's trying to do.

Gummy wrote:Yes, confuse, but the point is still: it doesn't lie with what it says. I don't think BW would have just said shep dies in destroy if they wanted it to lie, but they purposely made an exception here.

Alright you both win this round...2 against 1 isn't even fair . But I get what you say I just assumed something that probably wasn't really there.

Raistlin Majere wrote:

Steelcan wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.

. Shackled EDI

She was limited in what information she could give Shepard and her access to the ships system, but nothing suggest it limited her intelligence or the conclusions she could draw.

This.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Raistlin Majere wrote:

Steelcan wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.

. Shackled EDI

She was limited in what information she could give Shepard and her access to the ships system, but nothing suggest it limited her intelligence or the conclusions she could draw.

This.

. Those limits were limits on her intelligence as well. It prevented her from being totally free. She couldn't grow her programming because it might have made her loose value for the lives aboard the Normandy. She mentions this after she's freed.

So you're saying that the catalyst is a shackled AI?