(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

dorktainian wrote:http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/03/21/did-the-real-mass-effect-3-ending-go-over-everyones-heads/

"Art that fails to communicate it’s intent is bad art."

Perhaps but my money is on 'it's not meant to be understood at this point'.

Read the last sentence of the text shown on Eletania in ME1.
Whatever is the first trilogy, the lore which is not directly highlighted there could be the basis upon which the ME4 team will elaborate, creating a unique sens of continuity between both trilogy.. (after things are explained of course)

Is it a dream? I don't know but what if the decisions taken in the dream do have real consequences in the real world?
Be it levi or harbi or starbrat who created the dream, what if saving the krogans pushes the dream maker to save them for real? same with the geth, the quarians and so on?
What if shep wakes up in a real world fundamentaly changed by the decisions he took ala 'return to the futur'?

Only your choices will be remembered.

There's two huge problems with that Vlad.

The first being that you are still devaluing the emotional impact of some of the most poignant moments of the trilogy by reducing them to symbolic decisions. Even if those decisions "real" consequences somehow come close to their "dream" versions they don't have the foundational emotional investment from the player to have the same impact. Assuming Bioware somehow managed to have those decisions "real" consequences be just as powerful and awesome as the original "dream" version, the second problem arises...

You're still importing a huge web of plot flags, just with different skins on them. It solves nothing.

I doubt the fans would be happy having the trilogy retroactively altered in such sweeping dramatic fashion.

spotlessvoid wrote:There's two huge problems with that Vlad.

The first being that you are still devaluing the emotional impact of some of the most poignant moments of the trilogy by reducing them to symbolic decisions. Even if those decisions "real" consequences somehow come close to their "dream" versions they don't have the foundational emotional investment from the player to have the same impact.  Assuming Bioware somehow managed to have those decisions "real" consequences be just as powerful and awesome as the original "dream" version,  the second problem arises...

You're still importing a huge web of plot flags, just with different skins on them. It solves nothing.

I doubt the fans would be happy having the trilogy retroactively altered in such sweeping dramatic fashion.

I don't see the problem here.
There's a huge lot of science fiction novels with that kind of ideas.

The emotional impact would still be saved if what you chose mattered. Furthermore, some of your squadmates are in the dream, they would know.
I'd go even further, if the scene with stargazer is real, the Shepard has a legendary status within the next game. It's a legend, perhaps he/she's even seen as a myth.

The difference between dream and reality does not have to be so clear cut.
Symbolic decisions which do have real consequences upon the characters you came to love or hate, won't spoil the emotional investment . imho

And the whole next game could resolve what happened.

Furthermore, I think the next game will be far bigger than the previous trilogy.
Take DA3 into account, there's a lot of flags coming from the 3 games involved, but each one has local consequences which slightly alter the overarching plot. (or so it seems)

And i think it would work the same in ME4.
We've already seen how the flags could change things.
See the krogans.

If you saved wrex in ME1, he's the urdnot warlord in ME2 and in ME3 you can rally the krogan to ally with the turians if you cure the genophage nd krogan won't drown th galaxy in blood.
But you can't betray him with the salarians.

If you don't save him, his cousin is the urdnot warlord and he will probably restart the krogan rebellion if you cure the genophage while he can be betrayed by making him think it is cured.

This is not the same flag with just a different skin on it. It is a complete different outcome which can be changed by several decisions you took and can be complicated at will. BW have hundreds of people working upon it.

The main problems would remain the choices of the ending because they create complete different universe.
But the universe is an experiment remember? Levi said it.

How will BW tackle this? Will there be a canon ending? Will synthesis make it or will it be expended upon why it could not work? are control and destroy so different?

Science fiction novels? This is a space opera Vlad. What's cool and unique for a short story or one off novel doesn't work the same for a space opera. Honestly, I think this is where the CW/Scary door type stuff totally misses the mark. A one off sci fi work can use a creative narrative device as it's central focus without a problem. An emotional epic trilogy where the player assumes the avatar of the protagonist and is given agency to decide many important narrative decisions plays by a completely different set of rules.

vlad78 wrote:

dorktainian wrote:http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/03/21/did-the-real-mass-effect-3-ending-go-over-everyones-heads/

"Art that fails to communicate it’s intent is bad art."

Perhaps but my money is on 'it's not meant to be understood at this point'.

Read the last sentence of the text shown on Eletania in ME1.
Whatever is the first trilogy, the lore which is not directly highlighted there could be the basis upon which the ME4 team will elaborate, creating a unique sens of continuity between both trilogy.. (after things are explained of course)

Is it a dream? I don't know but what if the decisions taken in the dream do have real consequences in the real world?
Be it levi or harbi or starbrat who created the dream, what if saving the krogans pushes the dream maker to save them for real? same with the geth, the quarians and so on?
What if shep wakes up in a real world fundamentaly changed by the decisions he took ala 'return to the futur'?

Only your choices will be remembered.

Playing Dreamfall Chapters right now and that's kinda the same message it has. The protagonist may have failed, they may have gotten lost, but their dedication to make things right will allow them to truly succeed later on.

So you want Mass Effect to abandon everything it's been and become some fantasy/sci-fi hodgepodge of weird and crazy narrative devices? Mass Effect generally tries to convey a sense of realism which is crucial to creating the immersion that forms the foundation upon which the defining feature of Mass Effect and Bioware games in general rests- player agency. You seriously want Bioware to abandon the very thing they do better than all other studios? For what, the speculationz?

The moment you destroy that is the moment the protagonist stops being "me" and that would be the beginning of the end of Bioware as we know them. The whole thing will rapidly devolve into a downwards spiral of "mind fuck" plot twists one upmanship. Nobody will buy in emotionally because they won't believe anything that's happening anymore, instead of directly experiencing the narrative they'll be watching from afar. That's what novels are for.

Well, there's that realm so far beyond our own, we cannot even imagine it - yuk yuk.

SwobyJ wrote:Well, there's that realm so far beyond our own, we cannot even imagine it - yuk yuk.

lol, you got me there Swoby

To each his own. I wouldn't mind a more original, daring space opera. By now we've come to love and recognize the ME universe as it is, but it's essentially a collection of sci-fi tropes and clichéd heroism. So yes... a space opera indeed. But why not rise above that questionable level?

However I agree that from a marketing POV, the "mainstream" audience will probably be more into traditional storytelling, which remains one of the best arguments against all alternative interpretations, IT, and to a greater extent theories take things further, like CW.

To me this feels like an artistic versus a commercial route. BW would be king if they could take both.

IT works.  The naysayers are indoctrinated.  They killed their shepards.  Fuck em.

Choose Wisely.

Haha, Bioware will NEVER leave the 'commercial route'.

Even if somehow EVERYTHING AT ONCE from Scary Door + IT + Whatever happens, it'd still play out in front of us as a fun shooter pew pew ooo cool action and romance cutscenes and fanservice and etc etc, like the last several Bioware games before.

Any sort of mind fuck will ultimately be optional to care about. They still got games to sell, and customers who only care about shooting enemies in the face and not much more.

IT can be very easily implemented, we don't need all those scary door tactics, conspiracy theories and other crap. The answer is already there; the breatscene. Shepard survives if you chose destroy and dies if you chose any other option. No second chances.

Destroy should be canon, if you chose any of the other options you simply died. No continuation in the new series, you're dead and you've failed. Start over.

The point at where the indoctrination starts to kick in can vary but it shouldn't be hard to implement a good point where everything goes sideways, probably at earth. Shepard has had contact with multiple reaper objects, he even caries reaper technology. It's not if Shepard is indoctrinated, but WHEN did Shepard get indoctrinated?

Indoctrination is a theme that covers all off Mass Effect, from the beginning. Everything you want to know about it can be found in the codex and even multiple times in all the games / comics.

IT is just as easily implemented as to start a whole new story. I even think that IT is even more easily to implement than to start a whole new story. Hell, IT is more believable than to say that everything was a joke and *blam* here's your new protagonist. Even the mainstream people should and could understand the implementation of IT. It isn't really so hard?

http://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/2jnklm/shepards_kill_count_calculated_and_summarized/

Much lower, obviously, if you don't count synthetics, Reaper troops, and Arrival. But still in the 1000s for deaths that Shepard is directly part of.

SwobyJ wrote:http://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/2jnklm/shepards_kill_count_calculated_and_summarized/

Much lower, obviously, if you don't count synthetics, Reaper troops, and Arrival. But still in the 1000s for deaths that Shepard is directly part of.

So basically Shepard and Co has fought their own little First Contact War (623 humans casualties, slightly more Turian casualties) and then some in pretty much every single game...without counting Arrival.

Just considered that an interesting perspective.

Destroyer.

Jusseb wrote:IT is just as easily implemented as to start a whole new story. I even think that IT is even more easily to implement than to start a whole new story. Hell, IT is more believable than to say that everything was a joke and *blam* here's your new protagonist. Even the mainstream people should and could understand the implementation of IT. It isn't really so hard?

Yeah, so much this.

IT is by far the easiest way to make the next game. Whether they show the consequences of control/synthesis or not; even if they canonize destroy, it's simply a matter of having Shepard wake up in London and showing us the Reapers weren't actually destroyed. That alone would be enough to imply that the ending was indoctrination.

That way they'll have none of the problems with prequel/sidequel/sequel-where-we-have-to-wiggle-around-the consequences-of-the-ending, etcetera.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Jusseb wrote:IT is just as easily implemented as to start a whole new story. I even think that IT is even more easily to implement than to start a whole new story. Hell, IT is more believable than to say that everything was a joke and *blam* here's your new protagonist. Even the mainstream people should and could understand the implementation of IT. It isn't really so hard?

Yeah, so much this.

IT is by far the easiest way to make the next game. Whether they show the consequences of control/synthesis or not; even if they canonize destroy, it's simply a matter of having Shepard wake up in London and showing us the Reapers weren't actually destroyed. That alone would be enough to imply that the ending was indoctrination.

That way they'll have none of the problems with prequel/sidequel/sequel-where-we-have-to-wiggle-around-the consequences-of-the-ending, etcetera.

my money is and has been on shepard being the antagonist in the next game / games. the choices made in 1 -3 and more specifically the ending chosen will determine the capacity of that role. will he be like saren (synthesis)?, TIM (control)?, something else? what will his role be if he chose destroy?

we saw the leviathans temporarily trap shepard's mind in a sort of purgatory in the levithan dlc, possibly foreshadowing something similar with the reapers, all while the new protagonist plays out their story, and has to eventually confront an indoctrinated shepard. (darth vader anyone?)

noobcannon wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Jusseb wrote:IT is just as easily implemented as to start a whole new story. I even think that IT is even more easily to implement than to start a whole new story. Hell, IT is more believable than to say that everything was a joke and *blam* here's your new protagonist. Even the mainstream people should and could understand the implementation of IT. It isn't really so hard?

Yeah, so much this.

IT is by far the easiest way to make the next game. Whether they show the consequences of control/synthesis or not; even if they canonize destroy, it's simply a matter of having Shepard wake up in London and showing us the Reapers weren't actually destroyed. That alone would be enough to imply that the ending was indoctrination.

That way they'll have none of the problems with prequel/sidequel/sequel-where-we-have-to-wiggle-around-the consequences-of-the-ending, etcetera.

my money is and has been on shepard being the antagonist in the next game / games. the choices made in 1 -3 and more specifically the ending chosen will determine the capacity of that role. will he be like saren (synthesis)?, TIM (control)?, something else? what will his role be if he chose destroy?

we saw the leviathans temporarily trap shepard's mind in a sort of purgatory in the levithan dlc, possibly foreshadowing something similar with the reapers, all while the new protagonist plays out their story, and has to eventually confront an indoctrinated shepard. (darth vader anyone?)

That's all well and good, but Shepard shouldn't be indoctrinated in destroy.

It makes no sense.

Wants to destroy the Reapers = indoctrinated? Just no.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

noobcannon wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Jusseb wrote:IT is just as easily implemented as to start a whole new story. I even think that IT is even more easily to implement than to start a whole new story. Hell, IT is more believable than to say that everything was a joke and *blam* here's your new protagonist. Even the mainstream people should and could understand the implementation of IT. It isn't really so hard?

Yeah, so much this.

IT is by far the easiest way to make the next game. Whether they show the consequences of control/synthesis or not; even if they canonize destroy, it's simply a matter of having Shepard wake up in London and showing us the Reapers weren't actually destroyed. That alone would be enough to imply that the ending was indoctrination.

That way they'll have none of the problems with prequel/sidequel/sequel-where-we-have-to-wiggle-around-the consequences-of-the-ending, etcetera.

harbinger's avatar is that damn kid.

my money is and has been on shepard being the antagonist in the next game / games. the choices made in 1 -3 and more specifically the ending chosen will determine the capacity of that role. will he be like saren (synthesis)?, TIM (control)?, something else? what will his role be if he chose destroy?

we saw the leviathans temporarily trap shepard's mind in a sort of purgatory in the levithan dlc, possibly foreshadowing something similar with the reapers, all while the new protagonist plays out their story, and has to eventually confront an indoctrinated shepard. (darth vader anyone?)

That's all well and good, but Shepard shouldn't be indoctrinated in destroy.

It makes no sense.

Wants to destroy the Reapers = indoctrinated? Just no.

agree 100%

that's where i think the leviathan dlc comes in to play. choose destroy and successfully resist the indoctrination, but shepard's mind could still be trapped by harbinger. does that mean he's going to be in some type of coma, stuck under the rubble?

Leviathan: Something more. [Shepard loses consciousness and find themselves in an empty void. Ann Bryson appears before them, as an avatar for Leviathan] Your mind belongs to me. Breathe.
Shepard: Ann? What's happening?
Leviathan: Your memories give voice to our words. Your nature will be revealed to us. Accept this.

If harbingers avatar is the little kid then becoming sympathetic to the kid (the dreams) is indeed falling into harbingers trap.  At the end you can be sympathetic to the kid or you can just destroy the reapers.  

Control and the reapers still exist.
synthesis and the reapers still exist.
refuse and the reapers still exist.

or you can just destroy harbinger and the reapers.....  fuck you kid.  fuck all you reapers.

or is shooting the tube symbolic of cutting Harbingers connection to Shepards Mind?

Technicallyyyyyy in Destroy, the Reapers' synthetic bodies still exist. Dunno to what extent though. Their code and all that seems eliminated.

Just thought that might matter. Destroy wasn't something that utterly erased everything of the Reapers. They still left their 'mark' on the planets.

A minor aside:  I have been playing Civilization: Beyond Earth.  In Beyond Earth, there are three primary affinities each with their own victory condition and color theme.  I am simplifying things somewhat, but the affinities in a nutshell are:

Purity - Red.  Keep you humanity and STICK WITH THE GORRAMMED MISSION YOU WERE GIVEN AND SAVE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH.

Harmony - Blue.  Live in peace with the alien planet by becoming an alien yourself.  Screw the people of Earth; they're lower life forms now.

Supremecy - Gr... er, Yellow.  Merge with technology to achieve transcendence.  Also, screw the people of Earth.  Possibly digitize the people of Earth, too.  I haven't played that far.

Compare and contrast with Mass Effect's ending at your leisure.

- Harmony – will allow humanity to interact with a semi-sentient super organism linked to the alien planet that will push both towards a new level of consciousness;
- Supremacy – allow all humans to augment themselves using cybernetic implants and then return to Earth to free all people from their physical bodies;
- Purity – completely terraform the alien planet in order to create a complex image of Earth to which all the population of the cradle of humanity can be relocated;
- Domination – destroy all other factions;
- Contact – discover evident of sentient alien life and create the device that allows humans to make first content.

Like I said.  Purity.  Stick to the damn mission.

The way I see it:

Both Control and Synthesis use the Reapers in some manner - adopting their technology, their ideas, their suggestions... both are accepting the fate the Reapers lay before us.  They're essentially submission.  *throws away gun*

Destroy on the other hand, is rejection.  Refusal.  Resistance.  *keeps hold of gun, and bloody well fires it*

Once you start accepting Reaper logic, once you buy into their suggestions, you're on a slippery slope.  We've seen it in action time and time and time again throughout the series.  No matter the motives.  The road to indoctrination is paved with good intentions.

Fuck the Reapers.  Shoot the damn tube.

edited for the sake of clarity.