(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

lol your theory that Shepard has innate indoctrination powers has been blown apart. Now it's Bioware might add this down the line...so discussing it is irrelevant and I'm what- bullying you by criticizing the theory? If you can't take disagreement then go back to your echo chamber.

You must be misinformed. I didn't propose such a theory. I will remind you again of what I said.

I argued that in ME's universe, there are precedents for humans having supernatural abilities, including mind-controlling abilities, and additionally, that Reaper indoctrination is just space magic. This was a response to you calling such abilities space magic while seemingly treating Reaper indoctrination as something with an actual basis in reality, which I thought was rather curious.

Furthermore, I have a question regarding your personal interpretation of indoctrination lore. If the Reapers are only targeting the limbic system, to modulate the release of neurotransmitters as a means to indirectly reinforce/inhibit certain thoughts, shouldn't the first prerequisite be they know exactly what we are thinking at any given time? So how do they manage using just electromagnetic waves aimed at our limbic system?

Just because manipulating the limbic system is the most or only viable method doesn't mean they don't know what is going on in the cerebral cortex. I explained why hijacking the cerebral cortex is not feasible, I never said anything about the Reapers not being able to read what's going on in it.

spotlessvoid wrote:Sigh.

That the causative mechanism the Reapers use is not well understood is logical. Reapers have not been studied. However the effect is on humans, which have been studied extensively. None of the known mechanisms used by Reapers have ever been demonstrated as being physically possible to produce by humans.

Sorry to be a little arsh but this is total BS. (no offense)
You adopt a narrow point of view here.

You take into account only reaper indoctrination but you forget that it is a technology imitating the natural gift of the leviathan species.

Mind control and power of suggestion can be used by organics.
Just to name a few, Leviathan as I said, Asari (bachelor party) , Ardat-Yakshi (dominate) and the rachni (see the encounter with the asari on Ilium if you spared the queen) and the colonists on feros where shiala is using the spores of the Thorian, her biotic and maybe indoctrination which is toned down by the colonist network.

IMHO Shepard is not a common human, he is an anomaly triggered by natural evolution (and I believe a big help by the leviathan)
Saying it is not proven humans can do that is just meaningless.

spotlessvoid wrote:
It would be a major asspull this far into the narrative and especially given my earlier point:  Shepard must use a coherent argument to consciously convince others (excluding the threat of using force of course) meaning that he is targeting the functions of the cerebral cortex in a completely natural way. Fail to consciously convince others through proper dialogue and they don't align as desired.

Again imho you're making a mistake.
You do have to choose the proper dialog only if you avoid using renegade or paragon dialogs.
Otherwise you just have to choose the red or blue dialog and as I said your little speech will magically convince the people you're talking to.

The only conscious choice the player is making is the colour to choose. Will I be a great guy today or a total arse?

And what's even worse, lies with the fact that shep is able to turn every ME2 squadmates into killers or saviors at will.

Zaheed having been seeking revenge for years
-Shep : Zaheed, let go. This is bad.
- Zaheed: Ok Shep . (and just like that he lets go .)

It's not the message which is important, it's the medium.

Now we could alter things a little bit and try to think things differently .
Why are renegade and paragon choices always able to convince people, how do those renegade or paragon choices allow Shep to find the exact words needed to sway people just by choosing those dialogs?

Gameplay? I think not.

spotlessvoid wrote:
Indoctrination works by operant conditioning not by mind control. Neural networks are tremendously complex and heavily redundant, it's exponentially harder to directly rewrite entire neural networks than it is release endorphins for example. In fact, we know that rapid indoctrination causes massive degeneration of cognitive function. This is why manipulating the release of various chemicals to reinforce/discourage cognitive patterns is the preferred Reaper mechanism for indoctrination.

1°) it is your interpretation.

Here are the exact words of the wiki. I believe the game does not expand on them.
'It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind. '

Despite the fact that I really like your limbic theory, it's a fictional theory, the mind does not work like that.
I'll take smash word on that just because it's his field of study.
And it isn't as thouroughly explained by BW just like you can see above.

2°)  it doesn't explain how indoctrinated people do share their thoughts and memories.
I'll keep firm on that point.

3°) Again you're taking into account only reaper indoctrination.
Leviathan, Asari, Ardat-Yakshi, Rachni indoctrination is closer to mind control through the use of dark energy (speculative but given the blue lightning shown with the levi orbs or dominate powers, I think it's a safe bet).

And don't make the mistake to think they are only capable of direct control, they can be as subtle as indoctrination. (see how Morinth seduced her preys, how entire villages were willing to give their lives for her, or levi being able to convince a scientist of the lack of usefulness of orb studies)

Shep anomaly is first naturaly gifted, then probably enhanced because he faced reapers, the thorian, has been implanted with reaper levi tech and can use his squadmates biotic powers.
Whatever power he has is not just reaper indoctrination but comes from several elements. (otherwise the clone would have kicked his/her ass)

spotlessvoid wrote:
There is no real world corollary to Reapers, hence the relative carte blanche when it comes to the hard science behind their abilities. Humans however do not have this wiggle room. Human induced indoctrination becomes space magic as it directly contradicts known human physiology. It also DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the game. Shepard CANNOT subconsciously manipulate others, only through words and actions. If he has any hypothetical powers they are thoroughly ineffective. Since they don't manifest in any perceivable way, have no known in universe justification, and contradict known human biology, there's no justification to introduce the concept retroactively.

Repetition does not make it true.

If shep has any power, since he/she's an anomaly, BW has the same carte blanche as for explaining reapers abilities.

To you this possibility is unthinkable because you're trapped by storytelling conventions used in the gaming industry to which BW does not abide.

Shep cannot subconsciously manipulate others huh?

So explain to me why this Cerberus scientist feels so attached to shep's clone? Stockholm syndrom?




@Doomsday
No tellsigns?

You'd rather say most tellsigns could be interpreted in another way but they are all here.

Indoctrinated people show a list of symptoms.

1 - They hear buzzing sounds = Vega

2 - They share memories and knowledge =
please find the list of ME1 acheivements and watch what happens when shep tags along some squadmates for a long time. He becomes better at what THEY are doing.
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Achievements

In ME2 and ME3 Shep can directly learn his/her companions special abilities.

3 - their memories become confused
In ME1, Garrus can be left on the citadel but he will say in ME2 and ME3 he was there all along.

Vega memories match sheps. (CW idea)  Had to fight the collectors to save a human colony, destroyed the collector ship, receive N7 commandation. (Btw the movie show a lot of inconsistancies with ME2 and ME3 despite having been directly checked by Mc Walters and Casey Hudson, is it really a poor job or is it on purpose?)

4 - Indoctrination is described as a way to compel people to do things.
Shep can sway almost anyone thanks to the paragon and renegade dialog choices.

He can turn all of them completely and even break others indoctrination.

5 - indoctrinated people come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.
Do people see shep with superstitious awe? Short answer, yes.

Shepard, hero of the alliance, first human specter, savior of the citadel and so on.

'Normandy crew, you are legends'

6 - There're signs squadmates can share Shep's thought from a long distance.
As I said Joker during EC ending and LI in the destroy perfect ending who knows Shep is alive despite she/he was about to put Shep's name on the memorial.

All those signq can be refuted if taken separately. But if you gather them, you get a pretty accurate portrayal of indoctrination symptoms.

@Doomsday

I wan't to add something about this last memorial scene and the interpretation of the dream.

First the LI is not hesitating when holding the plate with shep's name on it.

I insist he/she's about to put it on the memorial, then he/she looks to the ceiling as if he/she was hearing something or 'felt something' and then he/she smiles.. because he/she knows Shep is alive.
Fade to black
And then breath scene.

I think we all agree here FV ending is a piece of s*** and is most probably not real.

But imho thinking the ending is just a dream and therefore meaningless like IT 1.0 stated is just as limited.

You all know I think the dream started before the ME3 ending. (whatever your objections might be)

Imho Shep is the true catalyst and the dream is the real crucible designed to bring shep to the decision chamber and to make him consciously choose what will be the future of the galaxy.
While the dreammaker is doing this, shep is struggling like Ulysses to return home but this can only be so by choosing wisely. (read again how the gods did let Ulysses reach home only when he proved to be worthy) (BTW did you know tennyson did write a novel called Ulysses? and it is read by Ash after Horizon when Shep is at the helm of the Normandy SR2)

and this journey is littered by hints about what is happening behind the scene, about the real balance of power in the galaxy and so on.

I agree with you DD when you consider the endings as the personification of shep's hopes but they are more than that, I think they contain the keys which will help us understand the next game. (which main plot has already been written for a long time imho)

And the magnitude of Shep's powers is one of those keys and therefore is real.

See that's how you do it ^

Vlad, I can't wait to respond but I'm busy for a couple hours. I have multiple points of contention that I'll address later.

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:

vlad78 wrote:

So explain to me why this Cerberus scientist feels so attached to shep's clone? Stockholm syndrom?

Simple. Because they created the thing. It's like a parental instinct to protect your 'child'.

or because it is shepard?

Okay first off, smash has what? A non phd in psychology? Wtf does that have to do with neurobiology? This makes him your expert? Bwahahaha.

Second, your total misuse of the word "mind" shows you are way out of your own depth on this subject. "Mind" refers to cognitive functions. It is not a generic term for the entirety of brain funcion. This point is crucial in differentiating various methods of impacting organic behavior, from pheromones to subliminal to "indoctrination."

Now, as far as Shepard goes....

That Shepard learns other squad member's abilities is easily attributable to the amazing power of observational learning.

Shepard creates awe by being a highly actualized human being. You would probably do whatever he told you. Tremendously charismatic, intelligent, fearless, leads by example, and has a long list of well known accomplishments that speak to his efficacy. Does say, Alexander the Great have indoctrination abilities?

As far as my explanation of indoctrination- it's pretty straight forward given known neurobiology and especially given Bioware's codex entry. I mean what do you think they based it on? Infrasound and ultrasound are proven to cause changes in emotional states. This isn't cutting edge. Sure, the mechanism isn't very well understood but the effects are well demonstrated. Everything do Reapers do can be accomplished via the limbic system,including shared memories.

As far as your examples of indoctrination go.... they're all wildly speculative and do not paint the picture you claim. Shepard "compels" people therefore indoctrination? Really? Semantics? LOL
The hum, even if we assume it's an indoctrination signal, there's no reason to assume it's Shepard especially given it only occurs in one area.

I have no idea what the Garrus thing is but so what? It seems like a dialogue or plot flag mistake.

The EC LI not willing to believe Shepard is dead without a body means shared thoughts? LOL

Selim already explained the pic to you.

The interrupts are still successful dialogue/actions that work for a number of non indoctrination reasons. Shepard's personality is very very strong, he/she is pure alpha, his actions have created an enormous reputation, and despite all that not everyone bends to his will.

His ability to break indoctrination is way over stated. As far as we know Shepard is the first one to challenge indoctrinated Saren directly, and it's still a combination of actions and words appealing to Saren's still autonomous cognitive functions that allows for a brief moment of clarity which enables him to "break" indoctrination. Shepard uses reason to convince him. Same thing for Benezia and TIM (if that even happens)

Can we NOT quote the same massive image repeatedly?

spotlessvoid wrote:Just because manipulating the limbic system is the most or only viable method doesn't mean they don't know what is going on in the cerebral cortex. I explained why hijacking the cerebral cortex is not feasible, I never said anything about the Reapers not being able to read what's going on in it.

Agreed.

However, I want to note that by your unsolicited expositions on the neurobiology of indoctrination, you gave off the impression you could explain indoctrination to us using the sparse lore available on it. This now turns out to be a rather limited explanation, if I may say so.

You also correctly noted how Reaper indoctrination has never been studied, both in-universe and in real life, yet at the same time you tried to explain it to us. So this was probably why I was eager to inquire a little further.

I now see my eduation is part of the discussion here. You are right to say I don't have a PhD, however, having one would've made me an expert on a very specific subject only, that subject certainly not being Reaper indoctrination in any case. But to take away any ambiguity on this matter, I do have a BSc in biological psychology. Admittedly, it's been a while since I've been actually involved in this field. Nevertheless, may I ask what kind of knowledge you possess that would make you an expert instead?

Good for you (not sarcasm)

1. I never claimed expertise, however I had two parents with degrees and careers practicing in the field of psychologically. To say it's been a lifelong passion to which I've dedicated a tremendous amount of study is an under statement. I was reading college level psychology textbooks in 9th grade. The study of neuroscience was a natural step to make. No I am not accredited in any way. Yes I am fairly well educated on the subject.

2. Appeals to authority especially ones lacking an actual factual argument are worthless.

3. Neuroscience is still very much an emerging science, but what I theorized is well grounded in current knowledge and given the fairly direct implications of the codex entry, I'd say I've described Bioware's intentions regarding the "science" of indoctrination pretty damn accurately.

4. It's self explanatory that if the Reapers could directly code neurons indoctrination would be absolute. That the target, particularly those undergoing slow indoctrination, maintain autonomous cognitive function is proof that direct coding of neurons is not occurring. Maybe they can electrically excite neurons but that only would cause an already coded neuron to fire. As you likely know the frequency doesn't effect the actual information transmitted only the strength of the signal. Given the redundancy in neural networks and the sheer complexity of these networks, it seems highly improbable that any significant level of control could be exerted over the target through such a method. Additionally the codex entry and known science discourage this interpretation.

Like I said, what you've been theorizing sounds okay to me for the purpose of a fictional universe. It clearly shows you know what you're talking about. I don't hold college degrees in high regard either, despite of having one I haven't been able yet to put it to use in my currently very shitty job.

But you were stressing the elegance and relative simplicity of your proposed method of indoctrination, as compared to modulating ensembles of neurons in the cerebral cortex. Which is an idea I agree with, but it's also true that the Reapers would need that same level of unfathomable complexity in another stage of the indoctrination process: the reading of our thoughts. Which makes this particular point of yours a bit moot, perhaps.

The foremost issue with monitoring neural activity is not capturing the data but processing it. Given that we can fairly assume the computational abilities of a Reaper are staggering, I don't see any reason why it's impossible.

That's a far cry from having a method of physiologically triggering the action potential of a specific neuron, let alone altering it. I don't see any biologically viable method of targeting a specific neuron by increasing the production of neurotransmitters or electrical fields. The reason why targeting the limbic system is scientifically plausible is only a general emotional state is created that targets the entire brain. Again this accomplishes a simple method of operant conditioning. This is accomplished by creating a global stimulus (like via infrasound frequency modulation to target specific areas of the limbic system) to create a global effect as opposed to neuron targeting requiring a local stimulus to produce a local effect.

While none of this is hard science, Bioware has made the effort to stay within the realm of scientifically possible, particularly in how the organic brain is effected, less so (but less needed) when it comes to the mechanisms used by the Reapers.

From that, I'd argue that Shepard lacks any justifiable mechanism to create anything remotely close to indoctrination beyond any semantic connection to the psychological definition of it in real life.

I like the way we are talking about a story creation as if it's fact. It's science fiction, and in science fiction anything is possible. Anything.

dorktainian wrote:I like the way we are talking about a story creation as if it's fact.  It's science fiction, and in science fiction anything is possible.  Anything.

Just because the author can introduce something doesn't mean it isn't poor writing, potentially catastrophic to  immersion, narrative continuity, and good old logic. I see no reason we can't speculate on the probability of potential narrative choices by discussing the scientific justifications used so far in a series that has generally made a valiant attempt at scientific accuracy.

spotlessvoid wrote:

dorktainian wrote:I like the way we are talking about a story creation as if it's fact.  It's science fiction, and in science fiction anything is possible.  Anything.

Just because the author can introduce something doesn't mean it isn't poor writing, potentially catastrophic to  immersion, narrative continuity, and good old logic. I see no reason we can't speculate on the probability of potential narrative choices by discussing the scientific justifications used so far in a series that has generally made a valiant attempt at scientific accuracy.

I can understand IT because of my limited knowledge of the human condition, plus the fact the governments have been indoctrinating populations for centuries. It's not a massive leap to understand Indoctrination.

I'll leave the science bit to you guys.

dorktainian wrote:

spotlessvoid wrote:

dorktainian wrote:I like the way we are talking about a story creation as if it's fact.  It's science fiction, and in science fiction anything is possible.  Anything.

Just because the author can introduce something doesn't mean it isn't poor writing, potentially catastrophic to  immersion, narrative continuity, and good old logic. I see no reason we can't speculate on the probability of potential narrative choices by discussing the scientific justifications used so far in a series that has generally made a valiant attempt at scientific accuracy.

I can understand IT because of my limited knowledge of the human condition, plus the fact the governments have been indoctrinating populations for centuries.  It's  not a massive leap to understand Indoctrination.

I'll leave the science bit to you guys.  

To be clear, scientific or not, it still remains purely speculation. I'm expressing my opinion why I think it's both unlikely and bad writing for more than just scientific reasons. It's idle discussion when we manage to leave it at that.

Yeah, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here, vlad.

I'm pretty much with Spot as far as this subject goes.

You mention a whole lot of indications but none of them seem very convincing and can easily be explained otherwise.

Let me just point out that people do not regard Shepard with superstitious awe. That would mean they see Shep as a higher being, something like a god. But that is not the case. The awe people feel for Shepard is perfectly natural, his accomplishments, his bravery, his charisma, etc. It's not a 'superstitious' awe.

@spotlessvoid

It still feels like you've solved only a few pieces of a giant insolvable puzzle. Despite your sound neurobiological suggestions indoctrination still feels primarily like space magic to me, and I guess to most people here.

If Reapers are supposedly able to not just register our neural activity in the greatest detail possible, but also translate that information to actual knowledge of our every thought, then they must know what every single neuron does. And if they possess the power to alter neurotransmitter release from the limbic system as they see fit, I don't see why they couldn't alter neuronal activity in other brain areas just the same. Targeting a limited set of neurons in the limbic system would perhaps be more energy-efficient, but it would also present as an indirect and relatively crude way of altering our thoughts, compared to directly modifying thoughts and being able to introduce novel ideas to us.

- For example, how did Saren get his synthesis philosophy? Through mere conditioning of existing ideas? Cognitive dissonance reduction maybe, but then again, isn't it a little too similar to genuine Reaper philosophy to be a product of his own mind?
- Assuming Reaper EM waves have a finite range, how does one prevent extinction of conditioned thought patterns as soon as victims move away from Reaper objects?
- Is it physically possible for EM waves to leave lateral parts unaffected and only modulate specific sites in the center of the brain? Do these waves travel even fast enough to be responsive to our every fleeting thought?
- What is the effective "half-life" of NTs? Is their temporal accuracy so fine-grained as to serve as a possible means to pinpoint and condition individual thoughts? We're talking feedback loops here, right? With altered NT chemistry having lingering effects? Wouldn't it be like kicking your dog for shitting on your carpet when it has already forgotten what it did and as such isn't learning the intended lesson? Like you say, it would create a general emotional state targeting the entire brain. Singling out individual thoughts would perhaps require a more local approach.
- Strictly taken, the Codex says the Reapers' control over the limbic system is the result of conditioning, not the other way around.
- The insertion of foreign memories surely must involve some modification at a level higher than the limbic system, does it not?
- Your earlier suggestion that Shepard resists indoctrination because of a less dominant limbic system -- given how easily everyone falls prey to indoctrination, and how small individual differences in brain functioning generally are, this would leave Shepard with an extremely abnormal brain and likely turn him/her into something like a social freak or uber-psychopath.

These are just some concerns I can think of off the top of my head and glancing at the ME Wiki. I believe at least your ready knowledge of neurology is better than mine, which needs some dusting off, I'll grant you that. Sorry for not acknowledging it earlier, but I couldn't have known you were so serious about this stuff.

To take a step back from the neurobiology of things, what you're basically saying is that BW didn't pick a random brain site, but actually put some thought in it. But it's not really surprising one can think of a fitting neurological explanation of indoctrination because of what I said earlier -- the limbic system as a whole is responsible for so many brain functions you could always think of something. The Codex just mentions the limbic system and conditioning without any further detail. In other words, do you believe BW had the same discussions as we're having here? Or have you just figured this all out because the topic interests you and the lore itself leaves plenty of space for ponderings like your own?

So when I said earlier that this was irrelevant I wasn't just trying to be an asshole. It was because it's still fiction every way you look at it, and because BW themselves only provided a mere fraction of neurobiology to base indoctrination on.

Again back to our earlier, more on-topic discussion: don't you agree the concept of biotics is a potential organic equivalent of Reaper indoctrination? Haven't we seen other supernatural mental phenomena attributable to an organic brain only? Remember neither Vlad nor I argued Shepard would use actual Reaper indoctrination. Although as a side note -- Shepard gets space-magically resurrected in ME2, and most people agree that the most likely in-universe explanation is that Cerberus used Reaper tech, seeing as they're into that stuff anyway and Reapers can reanimate the dead. A Renegade Shepard arguably shows increasingly Reaper-ish visual traits (eg. Shepard's eyes). So if this account is true, Shepard could in theory be able to indoctrinate just like the Reapers do, at least starting in ME2.

Anyway, with this mammoth of a post I feel I've talked enough about this for now. I would ask you to not take this the wrong way again and deliberately use it against me. I think I've been kind enough to you since you last provoked me.

As another side note, as anyone else ever wondered why ME3 has gotten rid of the neutral answers on the right side of the conversation wheel, that the decision chamber is shaped and colored like a conversation wheel, and that if you work hard enough might present the first neutral choice of the game (Synthesis)?

@Smash - just to chip in my two cents...perhaps the answer to your questions regarding the use of operant conditioning, lies in explaining the differences between rapid indoctrination and slow indoctrination? And more importantly, how the goals of each influences why it exists as an option?

The answer is straightforward: ultrasound, which can register subconsciously without ever rising to the level of conscious thought.

As far as how the limbic system is effected, varying infrasound frequency to match specific areas will produce desired emotional mechanisms using a stimulus that is present globally but acts locally. This is accomplished through an external stimulus as opposed to direct neuron targeting that would require an internal stimulus to act locally.

How indoctrination affects the target makes it self evident that direct control over neurons is not occurring. If that were the case the victim could be rewritten completely, losing all autonomous cognitive function and be completely and irrevocably controlled by the Reapers. Yet we know the Reapers are using your own thoughts, feelings, and memories against you, instead of simply programming you as they wish.

Operant conditioning doesn't stop the moment the stimulus is removed. In humans, the interaction en the cerebral cortex and subcortical functions is a two way street. Once thought patterns are tied in to emotional states it often requires a pervasive or extremely powerful counter stimulus to break conditioning. Once the victim is convinced emotionally the logical justifications follow. We see this with religious experiences.

As far as Shepard being an anomaly goes, there are real world examples of humans using their cerebral cortex to shut down the response mechanisms of the midbrain. Possibly the clearest example being Buddhist monks undergoing self immolation without the slightest hint of a physiological response to the presence of catastrophic stimulus. I don't think most would consider Buddhist monks to be psychopathic. Some humans, particularly through conditioning, develop a tremendous ability to consciously supress mechanisms innate in subcortical regions of the brain. Buddhist monks spend years willfully pursuing and improving their ability to maintain this suppression of everything not arising from the cerebral cortex. Yet their empathy is well known to be exceptionally strong, largely due to the suppression of emotional states particularly fear induced ones which are the primary deterrent to empathy. As long as Shepard resists succumbing to fear, and subsequently suppressing the corresponding mechanisms, the ability to alter his cognitive functions remains significantly muted.

So while I agree that aspects border on space magic, particularly the specific details of how the Reapers affect the stimulus, I maintain that the effects on the human brain remain pretty firmly grounded in science. Again, the Reapers get significantly more leeway as they are alien and possess a level of technological sophistication far beyond our own.

I don't know of any mechanism to trigger, let alone implant memory, without the presence of a corresponding stimulus. It does seem dubious, and I'm not likely familiar with each example in ME, but one could examine each individually to see if direct memory creation is actually occurring. Take the cerberus scientists confusing who's family is who's. One could theorize that only requires the person in error to have seen a picture of the family and the rest done through ultrasonic suggestion. Again, I'll grant you that the whole shared memories and controlled hallucination seems sketchy. Even assuming it's all done subcortically I don't see how this is accomplished by an external stimulus.  You can regulate the production of specific neurotransmitters, but I'm coming up empty as to a way to create a local effect. Nanotechnology is the only logical delivery method I can think of.

If one assumes the use of nanotechnology then the direct activation of neurons would no longer be theoretically impossible. One could easily imagine that this would possibly lead to neural decay and use this to explain why Reapers prefer not to use such technology on high value targets such as Shepard.  This in no way contradicts my whole point that Shepard is resistant to slow indoctrination for natural reasons and that he lacks any mechanism used to produce any of the effects that in totality are indoctrination.

Otherwise I don't know enough about how electromagnetic fields impact the brain to use it as a possible justification for at least triggering a combination of neurons to produce an experience that appears new but is actually a composite of existing memories. It's out of my league but that doesn't mean Bioware didn't know the scientific reasoning behind it. It also still doesn't changethat Shepard doesn't possess the needed mechanism, or the ability to compute any such data even if he could. My understanding of quantum physics is limited so I can't offer a theory for this.

Again, it's self evident that the Reapers don't acquire control of the cerebral cortex due to actions of the victims still possessing a degree of autonomy

Just want to remind anyone who actually thinks the Leviathans actually are a thing that exists... you're wrong lmao. They are clearly a trick by the Reapers themselves. Which BTW is very telling, because if it's the Reapers creating the mind world we see at one point in the DLC... then that proves all we need to see in order for Reaper Indoctrination to be the explanation for the ending.

Terramine wrote:Just want to remind anyone who actually thinks the Leviathans actually are a thing that exists... you're wrong lmao. They are clearly a trick by the Reapers themselves. Which BTW is very telling, because if it's the Reapers creating the mind world we see at one point in the DLC... then that proves all we need to see in order for Reaper Indoctrination to be the explanation for the ending.

Yes, Leviathan DLC proves the ending can be a full blown 'mind world'. Welcome to 2012.

But it doesn't even have to be the Reapers creating the 'mind world' in the DLC, because Reaper indoctrination is a refined and perfected version of what the Leviathans can do. So anything the Leviathans can do, the Reapers can do even better.

As for the Leviathans being real, I don't know what to think. Nothing is for sure, but I do find it funny that nowadays there's people who think Leviathans aren't real and it's actually Reapers, and people who believe the exact opposite of that.

Just like there's still people who claim the Leviathans are much more powerful than the Reapers, even though the DLC explicitly tells us the exact opposite.

Leviathans are obvs more powerful because organics rule and us organics need to stick together.

*raises Pro-Organic flag*

SwobyJ wrote:Leviathans are obvs more powerful because organics rule and us organics need to stick together.

*raises Pro-Organic flag*

x2

to quote Micheal Caine.

"we're in the self preservation society"