Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by **DoomsdayDevice** Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:37 pm

Spot, while I can certainly see it your way, and from a certain point of view you are right, it could just as easily be argued that while Shepard carries out the will of the galaxy, that does not excuse him from responsibility. He's still the man making that choice. I do realize it's actually not a choice at all, but we agree on that.

Anyway, I guess my point is that even if Shepard is responsible for sacrificing the Geth, it's still the right choice, both morally and practically. Just like Hackett was right in sacrificing one fleet to save two others. Not doing so would have cost him all three.

And yeah, I hope it goes without saying this is all arguing from a literal POV (even though the same conclusion goes for IT). I too very much doubt destroy will actually do anything whatsoever.

by DSharrah Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:18 am

Rif - you are not alone! I don't think for one second that what Repaerbieber tells Shep about any of the choices is 100% accurate. I have said from the very beginning that if you truly want to dissuade someone, you have to do so with just the right mixture of truth and deceit. Is it possible that the Geth are destroyed? Sure. But it is also possible that the Reaper code that they were given is targetted and they de-evolve rather than being destroyed. Same with EDI to be honest with you...could be destroyed, could be de-evolved...not sure that there is a way to know for sure - unless what really happened after the choice is revealed in the next game.

by DSharrah Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:22 am

Doomsday/Spot - I would be careful saying that Shep is simply acting as the will of the galaxy...it almost sounds if it makes it ok for Shep to make any choice, cause the "galaxy choose him for the job". That's all some green loving fools would need to hear to justify a certain choice.

by DSharrah Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:25 am

OneWithTheAssassins wrote:Just met someone online today who believes Mass Effect is an unoriginal, uninspired, un-innovative pile of garbage. Now I know all of those things are not true, but the moment this jackass watches footage of ME2, he's suddenly "interested."
Classic case of tasteless asshole/hipster hater.

They probably don't like any other classic RPG's either...

by **spotlessvoid** Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:29 am

DSharrah wrote:Doomsday/Spot - I would be careful saying that Shep is simply acting as the will of the galaxy...it almost sounds if it makes it ok for Shep to make any choice, cause the "galaxy choose him for the job". That's all some green loving fools would need to hear to justify a certain choice.

the galaxy specifically tasked him with destroying the Reapers, anything else is going rogue and betraying that.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:29 am

@DSharrah: I said that does not excuse him from responsibility.

by DSharrah Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:52 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:@DSharrah: I said that does not excuse him from responsibility.

I get that you are not suggesting that synthesis is a good choice...and I forget that this is not BSN...but back in the (bad?) old days on BSN if you left a crack like that, the green lovers descended and proclaimed that they were right. Old habits of wanting to keep the trolls away can be hard to let go...

by Rifneno Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:21 am

spotlessvoid wrote:Rif, I don't believe anything the Reapers say so it's definitely not a given that the outcome of destroy is what is threatened.

Good to hear. I would say my Shepard's thoughts on destroy is that he has no idea what it really does, but he knows the Reapers don't want him to do it and that's enough for him. The Reapers' lies fall on deaf ears. With or without Leviathan, in-character and IRL, I don't believe a word of this nonsense about the Reapers' motives being about some conflict between synthetics and organics.

I hate to quote Batman of all things, but as they said, theatricality and deception are very powerful tools.

OneWithTheAssassins wrote:Just met someone online today who believes Mass Effect is an unoriginal, uninspired, un-innovative pile of garbage. Now I know all of those things are not true, but the moment this jackass watches footage of ME2, he's suddenly "interested."
Classic case of tasteless asshole/hipster hater.

He is a fool, you should eat him. ... Where is that meme from, anyway? I always read it in a krogan voice but I can't recall a krogan ever having said it.

Anyway, I can't imagine what footage of ME2 changed the neanderthal's puny mind. Anything from the story is without context and therefor "meh" at best, and the gameplay, while not at all bad, is not some pinnacle of originality and innovation that shouldn be turning doubters into believers by seeing Shepard peek out of cover to fire a gun and use a power.

smash016 wrote:To be honest, I found ME2 a lot more original than ME1. Not necessarily better.

What's crazy is that when you think about it, ME2 was meaningless storywise. How would it change things if Shepard never took out the Collectors? Yet even though the game is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, it was one hell of a ride. So many feels, so much... I mean, launching the suicide mission felt like one of the most epic moments I've seen in my life. I was so shocked when I got to the reveal about the Collectors being Protheans that I couldn't sleep that night.

Still, ME1 built the best foundation I can imagine for building the rest of the series on. Storywise, lorewise, it was incredible. The way you could read up in the codex on the workings of things like the Normandy's guns and engines was staggering. It was like having the best parts of a video game with the best parts of a novel. It's a shame that the gameplay of ME1 is cancer tier.

DSharrah wrote:Rif - you are not alone! I don't think for one second that what Repaerbieber tells Shep about any of the choices is 100% accurate. I have said from the very beginning that if you truly want to dissuade someone, you have to do so with just the right mixture of truth and deceit. Is it possible that the Geth are destroyed? Sure. But it is also possible that the Reaper code that they were given is targetted and they de-evolve rather than being destroyed. Same with EDI to be honest with you...could be destroyed, could be de-evolved...not sure that there is a way to know for sure - unless what really happened after the choice is revealed in the next game.

EDI I could see dying, she's based off parts from Sovereign. She was build with Reaper tech at her core. But the geth? I find it very difficult to believe. I find it difficult to believe they could even lose the upgrade. How can a weapon target bits of code? It'd be like having a gun that only damages pieces of paper with one specific language written on them. It's silly. Code is information, information can't be targeted by a weapon. It's an abstract.

DSharrah wrote:Doomsday/Spot - I would be careful saying that Shep is simply acting as the will of the galaxy...it almost sounds if it makes it ok for Shep to make any choice, cause the "galaxy choose him for the job". That's all some green loving fools would need to hear to justify a certain choice.

Not the same though. Shepard was chosen for the job of killing the Reapers. Hackett is very clear that he doesn't want to pander to the Reapers, he doesn't want to control or hack them, he wants them dead. Everyone worked on the Crucible with the assumption that it was a weapon, and that it would physically destroy the Reapers. Killing the Reapers is what everyone has united to do, not placating them.

by Hanako Ikezawa Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:33 am

Rifneno wrote:He is a fool, you should eat him. ... Where is that meme from, anyway? I always read it in a krogan voice but I can't recall a krogan ever having said it.

Wrex said it in Mass Effect 1. Here is the scene he says it. The line starts at 0:32.

by Guest Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:30 pm

Not the same though. Shepard was chosen for the job of killing the Reapers. Hackett is very clear that he doesn't want to pander to the Reapers, he doesn't want to control or hack them, he wants them dead. Everyone worked on the Crucible with the assumption that it was a weapon, and that it would physically destroy the Reapers. Killing the Reapers is what everyone has united to do, not placating them.

I like this point. Everyone you've worked with, all friends and allies, are working on the Crucible under the presumption that it can be used as a weapon. Even the Geth and EDI seem to be contributing for the project being set in this mode, not for the mode of control or synthesis.

The thing itself may have been designed or plans sabotaged for other things, sure, but as it is, you are still going against the known will of most of the galaxy by picking anything but Destroy (NOT GETTING INTO REFUSE HERE).

Control makes Shepard, in whatever turns out to be the truth, an anti-hero at best (quite a flip compared to the more normally Renegade anti-hero position), and Synthesis makes him an utter betrayer.

Yet everyone is all synthesised up and happy happy joy joy so whatever. Neutral

by **DoomsdayDevice** Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:17 pm

So, my friend gave me the first two volumes of Foundation for my birthday, and I finally got around to reading them.

And what do you know, I couldn't help but spot some possible ending references in there too. (Will it ever stop!?)

Nothing ground breaking, but some bits that I thought were interesting:

Fist: "So, I can wait for the big guy to come up here, maybe he gets past my guards, maybe not--"
Rhasa: "Count on it."
Fist: "Or I can take my chances with you?"
Rhasa: "That's right."
Fist: "Maybe I'll go with what's behind door number three."

Not sure if this means anything, stood out to me anyway:

Bates: "Williams, she was our squad leader. She just wouldn't back down. She might have survived, but I don't know."

References to Shepard?

Bates (to Williams): "You've got the biggest balls of anyone in our whole platoon. And you keep your head on straight when things go crazy. You stick around, eventually somebody's gonna recognize that."

Williams (behind a pile of rocks): "God, throw me a bone here, it can't end like this. It can't! I will -- not -- yield!"

Williams: "I was on my own. My entire squad wiped out. I was sure I was dead. But sometimes... you get lucky."

(Damn you Mac Walters!)

Alenko sr. (to Kaidan): "Don't be too hard on yourself. You did what you thought was right. Nobody deserves to be treated the way you were. And besides... you learned an important lesson."
Kaidan: "And that would be?"
Alenko sr.: "Even the right choices have consequences."
Kaidan: "I'm not sure that makes me feel any better."
Alenko sr.: "It wasn't meant to. But it's something to remember next time."
Kaidan: "Not sure about a 'next time'. I messed this one up pretty bad."
Alenko sr.: "Son, if there's one thing I'd put money on, it's that you'll have a next time. And it'll be bigger than you can imagine."

*shakes angry fist at Bioware trolls* Angry Fistwave

Jacob: "Are you seriously heading back there?"
Miranda: : "Do you have any better leads right now?"
Jacob: "No... but I can think of better things to do than walk into that trap. Again."
Miranda: "I'm not stupid Jacob. But I'm not leaving this planet until I've secured Shepard's body."

Gah!?

Rhasa (being poisoned, in a dreamlike state): "Why is this happening?"
Thane: "Sometimes things happen beyond our control."
Rhasa: "It can't end like this."
Thane: "Why not?"
Rhasa: "Because, I-- I never lived MY life."
Thane: "Young woman-- I believe you. And I believe that I was-- misinformed of your purpose. I do not see murder in your soul. I apologize for the sickness you are about to experience, but it will wear off soon enough. Kalahira, guide her through the dark and show her how to live HER life."

This next one appears three times in total. Once in volume 1 I believe (can't find it right now, forgot who said it), and twice in volume 2, one of them being a flashback.

Rhasa: "Sounds like I don't have much of a choice."
Vasir: "There's always a choice. Just be sure you make the right one."

Hard to believe this would all be coincidental...

-----

Also, interesting how Miranda knew about the Shepard clone(s)... especially because of her disbelief in Citadel DLC: "A clone..., I mean, really?"

Also interesting how miss Lawson apparently knew Brooks/Rhasa from her time with Cerberus. Can Miranda meet her when you take her as a companion into the casino? I mean, before Brooks is revealed as a traitor?

Also, Williams meets her as well. Maybe in disguise, but still...

Plotholes? Or is something up with Miranda? Tinfoil Hat

by Raistlin Majere Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:04 pm

I seem to remember that Cerberus operates in cells with little knowledge of what is happening between each cell or the people involved. Miranda might have known slightly more, like names or certain cells considering how directly the Illusive Man speaks to her, but even to her most information was dark.

Just guessing though as I have not read Foundation.

by ZerebusPrime Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:15 pm

I just don't like the concept of Brooks/Rhasa being real at all. It's better if she's just another sign of indoctrination, a false memory editing itself into other memories.

by Guest Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:09 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:I seem to remember that Cerberus operates in cells with little knowledge of what is happening between each cell or the people involved. Miranda might have known slightly more, like names or certain cells considering how directly the Illusive Man speaks to her, but even to her most information was dark.

Just guessing though as I have not read Foundation.

Citadel DLC - Miranda claims to know (at least nearly) nothing about the clone, jokes about it.

Foundation - Miranda is the LEAD of the clone project, before moving onto reconstructing Shepard.

:)

by Raistlin Majere Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:30 pm

SwobyJ wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:I seem to remember that Cerberus operates in cells with little knowledge of what is happening between each cell or the people involved. Miranda might have known slightly more, like names or certain cells considering how directly the Illusive Man speaks to her, but even to her most information was dark.

Just guessing though as I have not read Foundation.

Citadel DLC - Miranda claims to know (at least nearly) nothing about the clone, jokes about it.

Foundation - Miranda is the LEAD of the clone project, before moving onto reconstructing Shepard.

:)

Does she claim she knows nothing about the fact that a clone is walking around or just nothing in general?

by Guest Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:17 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
SwobyJ wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:I seem to remember that Cerberus operates in cells with little knowledge of what is happening between each cell or the people involved. Miranda might have known slightly more, like names or certain cells considering how directly the Illusive Man speaks to her, but even to her most information was dark.

Just guessing though as I have not read Foundation.

Citadel DLC - Miranda claims to know (at least nearly) nothing about the clone, jokes about it.

Foundation - Miranda is the LEAD of the clone project, before moving onto reconstructing Shepard.

:)

Does she claim she knows nothing about the fact that a clone is walking around or just nothing in general?

Shepard: (...) I'm sure the news had a field day.

Miranda: It did. So... a clone?

Shepard: Yeah, saw it myself. Do you know anything about this?

Miranda: Just rumors. Nothing really caught my attention. But about this Brooks...

Shepard: Know anything?

Miranda: Not as Brooks, but as "Hope Lilium". Another lie, certainly. When the Collectors showed up, she put together the dossiers on your crew for the Illusive Man.

So she'd be lying about not just the clone involvement, but Brooks.

Miranda: (...) We needed the real Shepard, not some cheap knock off. I mean really, a clone?
Shepard: Yes. Hard to imagine.

Shepard

Basically, her first lines could imply that she only doesn't know about the CAT6+Brooks+CloneShep specific deal, but her later lines more clearly imply that she considers the whole business in general to be ridiculous, if she's telling the truth. That she didn't know (but may have heard stuff) that there is a clone, and didn't know that Brooks was Brooks.

Making Foundation a whole other story compared to the script in Citadel.

by noobcannon Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:47 am

anything new? i've been MIA for the last few weeks.

by Rifneno Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:56 am

ITT: common phrases like "hard to imagine" or "behind door number three" have some hidden meaning.

ITT: Bad.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:34 pm

Yeah Rif, it's probably all my imagination.

But it's not like we have anything better to do.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:56 pm

As for Miranda being deceptive about the whole clone thing, someone else suggested it could just be that she thought Shep didn't need to know, and she's keeping the information from Shep Cerberus-style, so to speak.

On the other hand, why continue to lie? She could have easily admitted to Shep that the clone project was a part of Project Lazarus, and that she didn't tell Shep at the time because she thought Shep didn't need another thing to worry about.

Anyway, makes me wonder how truthful she was about the (non-)existence of a control chip in Shep's body. I'd like to believe she was honest.

by DSharrah Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:53 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:As for Miranda being deceptive about the whole clone thing, someone else suggested it could just be that she thought Shep didn't need to know, and she's keeping the information from Shep Cerberus-style, so to speak.

On the other hand, why continue to lie? She could have easily admitted to Shep that the clone project was a part of Project Lazarus, and that she didn't tell Shep at the time because she thought Shep didn't need another thing to worry about.

Anyway, makes me wonder how truthful she was about the (non-)existence of a control chip in Shep's body. I'd like to believe she was honest.

My thought on the control chip has always been that it was discussed but not used. And my reasoning always comes back to TIM. I think you have every right to question TIM's motives considering that he has been under Reaper influence since his encounter with the Arca Monolith. But if there ever was a case of slow indoctrination - surely TIM would be an example of that. And the hallmark of this version of indoctrination is the subject's ability to keep their mental faculties. It is the reason that you see Saren investigating the effects of indoctrination in ME - he still had a piece of his mind that was greatly concerned about what the influence might do to him. Ultimately, his resolve still broke and he becomes a full puppet of the Reaper's - at least until the final confrontation with Shep (who given the right circumstances has the ability to snap him back out of it).

For TIM, much of the that same journey is a mystery...we aren't directly told about it. It is safe to argue that becuase TIM hadn't fully succumbed to indoctrination as of yet that many of his actions were stil his own. If there is anything noble about his character - I think that it would be that he knew what was happening to him (and that what he says at the start of ME2 is true...that Shepard probably the only chance that they have at defeating the Reapers), despite that knowledge (and knowing that he will succumb eventually) he attempts to use the insight gained to defend the galaxy. I would like to think that TIM wnet after Shepard, because he knew that the Reapers were seeking Shepard through their tools the Collectors. I would like to think that TIM rebuilt Shepard using the only technology (Reaper tech) that would bring him back (knowing the inherent risk it would put Shepard in - be susceptible to indoctrination). But also doing it in a way that would not compromise who Shepard was/is. I would like to think that TIM did not include a control chip (even if there was strong urging from the part of his mind that was under Reaper influence), to make it more difficult for the anyone to gain control of Shepard. Because in the end the part of TIM's mind that was still his own, again, knew that Shepard was the best chance that the galaxy had.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:15 pm

Yeah, I always believe(d) Miranda/TIM about there being no control chip. I'm just curious about miss Lawson now, as it seems there's more to her somehow.

by Hanako Ikezawa Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:26 am

If there was a control chip in Shepard, it would have been activated in Mass Effect 3.

by TurianRebel212 Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:22 am

There is no control chip in Shepard to a degree, but..... There is a certain amount of Reaper Tech in him that allows for certain things to..... Manifest.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:58 am

True dat.

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