Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by Terramine Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:02 am

smash016 wrote:Yeah, well, I recently thought: what if Shepard "wakes up" after every ending (save Refuse perhaps), but Bioware considered High EMS Destroy the "best" ending so they give you this bonus scene, this extra "inside info" as a reward for doing side missions and having resolve, but it basically happens, be it on- or off-screen, for every ending?

Partly because I can see Destroy being special, but not so much the EMS thing. EMS feels to me like a gameplay, rather than a narrative, component, and as such the (actual depiction of the) breath scene might also constitute a gameplay, not so much a narrative, achievement.

Does that make any sense?

The breath scene could've easily just served the purpose of calling things into question. In fact that was it's clear thematic purpose. It's a cliffhanger that makes you think. That's a good enough explanation for me, I don't think it was real. Just another hint like Refuse itself. But sure, i see how one can choose to take it as real. I think that much is too subjective regardless.

@Rif I think you're exaggerating, but whatever you say man.

Btw this mod is pretty awesome:

If there ends up being no reveal someone should seriously make an Indoctrination Theory mod. I might but god does that sound like a lot of work for a modification. However for this game series it'd be kinda worth it. Shrug.

by Raistlin Majere Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:56 pm

Terramine wrote:Also, a very important thing to consider is the fact that if Shepard is truly THEMATICALLY special. Then there is no reason he wouldn't break out period? Regardless of his choice.

That's exactly what I think is going on. If there is to be a reveal, Shepard breaks out in ALL of the endings IMO.

Just because you are special does not mean you cant be tricked or fuck up. Link is the chosen hero of the gods in just about every single Legend of Zelda and yet he fails to realize that Ganondorf is using him to gain access to the Sacred Realm in Ocarina of Time leading to 7 years of hell as Ganondorf grasps a part of the Triforce. He eventually makes things right, but no matter how one looks back at it those 7 years of Ganondorf in power remains in a timeline.

And Shepard succumbing or breaking free no matter the choice would defeat the entire purpose of the choice, both in gameplay terms and in a meta sense.

See what I always found amazing with those ends choices from an IT standpoint was how they seemed as much directed at the player as they were towards Shepard. Everything Shepard knows, everything we know about the Reapers is thrown into question and Shepard himself during the entire ordeal is obviously weakened and not quite there, answering only weakly and rarely contesting the entity before him. The player is in a sense beeing subjected to Indoctrination themselves, the Reapers goals and ideals beeing twisted in such a way as to appear reasonable and agreeable despite such a thought beeing incomprehensible just 20 minutes before.

And with Shepard not quite there, this leaves the player to be the clear headed one, to cut through the bullshit presented and make the right decision or to succumb themselves, believing the Reapers promises of utopia and solutions to problems only they present.

If it is the case of lose/lose/lose/lose then the players ability to realize what is going on does not matter and the illusion of the player beeing tricked by the game falls apart. The same in an all win scenario and the game under an IT interpretation loses much of what could turn a bad ending into a masterpiece of storytelling, at least in my eyes.

by jojon2se Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:36 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:Just because you are special does not mean you cant be tricked or fuck up.
...
And Shepard succumbing or breaking free no matter the choice would defeat the entire purpose of the choice, both in gameplay terms and in a meta sense.
...
...and the game under an IT interpretation loses much of what could turn a bad ending into a masterpiece of storytelling, at least in my eyes.

Nah; An all-way lose in this case means there is grounds for interesting self ransacking for a rescued/subsequently-broken-free-by-own-efforts Shepard (and the player), when the game continues, no matter what your selection -- no loss in storytelling strength as far as I am concerned, with no extra feeling cheated by railroading, because it is so prevalent throughout anyway.

About something you said earlier; If there is any one thing that should make one leery about thinking of Shepard as "special", it should be that the most noteable source of such thinking is, as stated, the indoctrinators themselves -- mull on those words.

I would not mind in the least, should Bioware have taken a step off their usual fare with Mass Effect, and made Shepard basically a regular person (beyond the general being at the right Eden at the right Prime time, and having the resolutely driven and persuasive personality to push through the path that has led from there).

Of course; One extension of Indoctrination Theory does place Shepard as a "Chosen One": The Reaper's chosen one, as opposed to anybody "predestined" or suchlike, to defeat them -- the one that they have at some point selected, and possibly conditioned, to personalise the new Reaper for this cycle - hardly as a "leader", mind - more part of a machine-to-population interface and spokespuppet.
Shepard has proven themselves competent at leading on a personal level and as a propaganda tool, whilst obeying orders like so much a machine (Hackett really runs the show in ME3, even when the initiatives are Shepard's) -- qualities I am sure pleases the Reapers.
They have cause to pander to the ego of any indoctrinee - someone like the above, doubly so.

Characters such as the Spirit Monk in Jade Empire WAS special, of course, with this subverted and exploited by master Li, complete with the option to show the world how dumb you are by late in the game giving him victory, but hey; Do we always have to be magically more than mostly just self-made?
(EDIT: Ok, the Dragon Age Inquisitor was this very accidental key figure, rising to the occasion, but never mind that. :P)

by Raistlin Majere Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:01 pm

I never said Shepard was predestined for anything, just that he is "special." And he is, because everyone else says he is, not necesarily because there is some great destiny pushing him. He rose to the occasion placed before him and in turn became the main hope for the entire galaxy. That makes him special, but not necesarily predestined.

And him succumbing no matter what...well then we lost, GG, whatever happens after the ending takes about 5 minutes in story terms as the Reapers massacre combined fleet, the last chance at putting a serious dent in their plans.

by Guest Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:06 pm

I think we may have both won and lost in all the endings.

But High Destroy is the clearest cut case, and therefore the one we perhaps most ought to point towards, as the hero.

Picking Destroy is best for the war and those involved with it. So I pick it.

They need Shepard alive.

by Terramine Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:51 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Terramine wrote:Also, a very important thing to consider is the fact that if Shepard is truly THEMATICALLY special. Then there is no reason he wouldn't break out period? Regardless of his choice.

That's exactly what I think is going on. If there is to be a reveal, Shepard breaks out in ALL of the endings IMO.
Just because you are special does not mean you cant be tricked or fuck up. Link is the chosen hero of the gods in just about every single Legend of Zelda and yet he fails to realize that Ganondorf is using him to gain access to the Sacred Realm in Ocarina of Time leading to 7 years of hell as Ganondorf grasps a part of the Triforce. He eventually makes things right, but no matter how one looks back at it those 7 years of Ganondorf in power remains in a timeline.

And Shepard succumbing or breaking free no matter the choice would defeat the entire purpose of the choice, both in gameplay terms and in a meta sense.

See what I always found amazing with those ends choices from an IT standpoint was how they seemed as much directed at the player as they were towards Shepard. Everything Shepard knows, everything we know about the Reapers is thrown into question and Shepard himself during the entire ordeal is obviously weakened and not quite there, answering only weakly and rarely contesting the entity before him. The player is in a sense beeing subjected to Indoctrination themselves, the Reapers goals and ideals beeing twisted in such a way as to appear reasonable and agreeable despite such a thought beeing incomprehensible just 20 minutes before.

And with Shepard not quite there, this leaves the player to be the clear headed one, to cut through the bullshit presented and make the right decision or to succumb themselves, believing the Reapers promises of utopia and solutions to problems only they present.

If it is the case of lose/lose/lose/lose then the players ability to realize what is going on does not matter and the illusion of the player beeing tricked by the game falls apart. The same in an all win scenario and the game under an IT interpretation loses much of what could turn a bad ending into a masterpiece of storytelling, at least in my eyes.

That first paragraph is one big ass false equivalence. You can't compare Link who's just special in general, to Shepard who is special from a narrative standpoint as an individual who is practically destined to break out. I'm not even talking about how most of the in series characters to say Shepard is special are the bad guys. I'm talking about the fact that the Reapers, Harbinger even, has an insane interest with Shepard and it's because of all that he accomplishes.

He meets a Reaper, Reaper dies. He dies by Reaper plot, he comes back to Life. He even goes on to just /happen/ to have all the right circumstances fall in line to kill a reaper 1 on 1... twice. He even kills a destroyer with 1 missile when it had already been shot at from all sides with like a trillion of the same firepower. And even if i don't believe Arrival was a legitimate thwarting of the Reapers on Shepard's part. It did show Harbinger how quickly Shepard can blow up an entire system ON THE DOT from just a second before the Reapers would theoretically show up. Despite being subdued completely and unconscious for however long.

I told you, even if Bioware doesn't know a thing about Classpect. There is a core theme going on here. One of Chaos and Order. Shepard is pure Chaos, that's why he's special and the Reapers are no match for him. You can't give order to something so Chaotic.

That's what Indoctrination IS. It's trying to enforce order upon others by twisting their mind systems. And the thing is... a Page passively EQUIPS their aspect to themselves and to others. Most iconic hero archetypes are Knights and Pages. In Shepard's case, you can see that he equips others with Chaos and in fact there is a very relevant example in regards to indoctrination. Remember Saren? Remember what happened? Shepard talked him into killing himself. He equipped Saren with the Chaos needed to resist indoctrination /just enough/ to at least attempt something useful. Even when apparently that whole time, Saren was nothing but Reaper tech underneath.

It's just the fact of the matter. Shepard isn't an /anomaly/... he is simply an inevitable product of the Reaper's Cycle.

by Terramine Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:05 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:*snip*

The rest of what you said just goes to show that you have Bioware and their intentions all wrong. Just like Literalists and people who demand fan service. You are MISSING THE POINT.

"If it is the case of lose/lose/lose/lose then the players ability to realize what is going on does not matter and the illusion of the player beeing tricked by the game falls apart."

This is not true when you realize the whole purpose to ME3 was to be the reveal itself. Not just the ending, but by paying attention and thinking critically you'd realize what was going on. Yes, it DOES matter... because it's what the whole purpose of the game itself was. So that when ME4 come around, we know what the fuck and can say we figured it out ahead of time or whatever. The illusion of the player being tricked does not fall apart. I mean shit, by all accounts JonJon is the only one with a voice here who at least CONSIDERS the idea. But technically y'all would have been duped just as much as anyone else because you didn't pay attention to what was really going on.

The reality is, nobody gets punished IN ME3. It wouldn't be until ME4 that "consequences" would ensue. But we know they can't make the consequences be a difference in Choice because that would mean a canon ending and thus traditional IT would be wrong. But also it makes sense that you would get META consequences for META trials. Specifically the meta consequence of being ignorant.

by jojon2se Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:59 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:...
And him succumbing no matter what...well then we lost, GG, whatever happens after the ending takes about 5 minutes in story terms as the Reapers massacre combined fleet, the last chance at putting a serious dent in their plans.

That depends on how much you believe, of what you see. :7

by Rifneno Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:11 am

You guys just don't get it. If Shepard was TRULY SUPER DUPER SPECIAL then he can't lose, even intentionally. If he broke his spine trying to fellate himself, then the enemy's bullets would bounce off his SPECIALNESS as he wheelchaired toward them.

by ZerebusPrime Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:35 am

Honestly, the Shepard is Special line has been used against IT in general more often than not. Far too many people seem to believe that Shepard is immune to indoctrination.

by Terramine Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:27 am

Rifneno wrote:You guys just don't get it. If Shepard was TRULY SUPER DUPER SPECIAL then he can't lose, even intentionally. If he broke his spine trying to fellate himself, then the enemy's bullets would bounce off his SPECIALNESS as he wheelchaired toward them.

Honestly I don't know how you can be so fallacious at times. Like you've got this rabbid bite, but it's an highly irrational bite half the time.

I'm arguing from a narrative perspective. Shepard wouldn't do what you're suggesting, it's not who he is nor would it make sense storywise.

by Rifneno Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:45 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Honestly, the Shepard is Special line has been used against IT in general more often than not. Far too many people seem to believe that Shepard is immune to indoctrination.

Every player character is special, from Shepard to the Dragonborn to Kratos. What makes them special is that they have the chance to win where no one else does. That victory is not guaranteed and the reason it's called a "game" is because it's very possible to lose. The fact that people think it's impossible to lose just means they're idiots. But we already knew that.

Terramine wrote:Honestly I don't know how you can be so fallacious at times. Like you've got this rabbid bite, but it's an highly irrational bite half the time.

I'm arguing from a narrative perspective. Shepard wouldn't do what you're suggesting, it's not who he is nor would it make sense storywise.

Considering your idea of rational is to ignore the breath scene, I'm only offended that you think me rational half the time.

by smash016 Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:33 pm

smash016 wrote:Yeah, well, I recently thought: what if Shepard "wakes up" after every ending (save Refuse perhaps), but Bioware considered High EMS Destroy the "best" ending so they give you this bonus scene, this extra "inside info" as a reward for doing side missions and having resolve, but it basically happens, be it on- or off-screen, for every ending?

Partly because I can see Destroy being special, but not so much the EMS thing. EMS feels to me like a gameplay, rather than a narrative, component, and as such the (actual depiction of the) breath scene might also constitute a gameplay, not so much a narrative, achievement.

Does that make any sense?

No, it doesn't, because Love Interest is hesitant to place Shepard's plaque on the memorial. For Destroy only.

by MaximizedAction Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:09 pm

Never Forget:

by Rifneno Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:28 pm

smash016 wrote:
smash016 wrote:Yeah, well, I recently thought: what if Shepard "wakes up" after every ending (save Refuse perhaps), but Bioware considered High EMS Destroy the "best" ending so they give you this bonus scene, this extra "inside info" as a reward for doing side missions and having resolve, but it basically happens, be it on- or off-screen, for every ending?

Partly because I can see Destroy being special, but not so much the EMS thing. EMS feels to me like a gameplay, rather than a narrative, component, and as such the (actual depiction of the) breath scene might also constitute a gameplay, not so much a narrative, achievement.

Does that make any sense?

No, it doesn't, because Love Interest is hesitant to place Shepard's plaque on the memorial. For Destroy only.

There's a very simple and very pragmatic explanation for EMS making a difference in destroy. They even hinted at it in Leviathan. Remember when Shepard gets back from talking to whatever was down there? He's disoriented and can't even get to his feet from the indoctrination attempt. Totally out of it. One of the brutes is going to cave in his skull. Leviathan assumes direct control of the other one and stops it. Does everyone see where this is going? I hope so, but I'll explain it for those with particularly low foreheads. If you break out of indoctrination, you're still helpless in the real world for a while and you damn well better have good backup to make sure a husk doesn't eat your brains or a banshee doesn't rape-murder you or something.

What is with this recent tread of idiotic "all choices are win/fail" bullshit? There's a reason the good stuff only happens in destroy. There's a reason you see Shepard die an agonizing death in control and synthesis. This isn't one of those little kid's baseball games where they don't keep score so "EVERY1 IS A WINNAR". High EMS destroy = win, low EMS destroy = win and then lose, everything else = lose. Simple as that. We nailed that 5 minutes into the first IT thread. Stop questioning the obvious, or do is in crazy door.

by Terramine Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:30 pm

Rifneno wrote:Considering your idea of rational is to ignore the breath scene, I'm only offended that you think me rational half the time.

Another fallacy, I blatantly addressed the breath scene and explained that I don't ignore it. Logically the most one can objectively take it for is the narrative calling things in to question. That's it, sorry to tell you bub. It was most likely not real. In fact thematically. Considering the third game was never meant as a blunt reveal. No part of it can be. Yet Shepard waking up WOULD be a blatant IT reveal even if we didn't see the results of it. So that scene could not possibly be real otherwise, it would be a bad writing.

I don't ignore shit, ironically you ignore that I don't ignore shit all the time and claim that I do.

by Terramine Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:39 pm

Rifneno wrote:There's a very simple and very pragmatic explanation for EMS making a difference in destroy. They even hinted at it in Leviathan. Remember when Shepard gets back from talking to whatever was down there? He's disoriented and can't even get to his feet from the indoctrination attempt. Totally out of it. One of the brutes is going to cave in his skull. Leviathan assumes direct control of the other one and stops it. Does everyone see where this is going? I hope so, but I'll explain it for those with particularly low foreheads. If you break out of indoctrination, you're still helpless in the real world for a while and you damn well better have good backup to make sure a husk doesn't eat your brains or a banshee doesn't rape-murder you or something.

What is with this recent tread of idiotic "all choices are win/fail" bullshit? There's a reason the good stuff only happens in destroy. There's a reason you see Shepard die an agonizing death in control and synthesis. This isn't one of those little kid's baseball games where they don't keep score so "EVERY1 IS A WINNAR". High EMS destroy = win, low EMS destroy = win and then lose, everything else = lose. Simple as that. We nailed that 5 minutes into the first IT thread. Stop questioning the obvious, or do is in crazy door.

That stuff about the Leviathan DLC is a non sequitur. It can still hold the narrative value you're explaining, and yet apply to all endings and have nothing to do with EMS. Remember that in this situation, no matter what you've previously done, Shepard gets saved. So it's not even something you can legitimately compare to EMS. But regardless again it could simply mean that when Shepard breaks out he will need help. It's because of your assumption that Destroy is the way out that it reflects only on destroy. But it just as easily if not more so applies to my interpretation too.

Now you're literally trying to say the Crazy door is just for dissenting opinion on the original IT theory itself. Crazy door is for shit like Choose Wisely, stuff that drastically changes the theory altogether. My interpretation hardly changes jack shit.

And Rif, no... nonono. They can have losers, but they can't do it the way you're suggesting. They can't META punish people specifically in a way that is also more than meta at the same time. That's just basically being a condescending retard. Mind you, I'm one to either Choose Destroy or Refuse and picked Destroy on my first playthrough. So I'm definitely not biased here.

by Terramine Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:42 pm

I have never even psuedo-chose Control and Synthesis. Not even on a playthrough where I'm just doing something different. Yet I've played countless times.

by epyonx3 Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:46 pm

This is still going on? Wow, it really is that serious hehe. I wonder if anyone from the Bioware forum is still here.

by MaximizedAction Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:49 pm

epyonx3 wrote:This is still going on? Wow, it really is that serious hehe. I wonder if anyone from the Bioware forum is still here.

Ohai, haven't seen you in a while.

by dorktainian Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:13 pm

it's been that long I fancy a new playthrough. I've got all the DLCs for the PS3 so here I go......again.

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:29 pm

Mac's on a roll https://twitter.com/macwalterslives

by Rifneno Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:00 pm

Fuckit. My carpal tunnel is bad enough without spending 5 paragraphs explaining obvious things to a retard. It's not my job. His mother's job was not to drink gasoline while pregnant and she didn't do that, why should I try to fix her mistakes? *puts IP on ignore, enjoys silence*

by smash016 Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:04 pm

@Rif

Didn't say I didn't understand what Effective Military Strength means.

Should've known this ain't the place for what-if scenarios though.

Have to admit Mac's retweets give me some hope. That this Ark Theory is just bullshit. Even though what little we know thus far does point in that direction.

by ZerebusPrime Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:45 pm

Of course, having a bigger Hammer to back you up after an indoctrination spasm only really works if you're on the ground in London.

It still strikes me as ludicrous that no one in-game noticed that the Reapers seemingly made the only way up onto the Citadel be a conveniently placed teleportation beam in a killzone near where the resistance had been deliberately drawn to over the course of the game. If the Reapers actually thought there was a threat, they'd've kept the Citadel on full lockdown with no way in. Also, teleportation beams are a new thing. Mass relays don't have to actually point at each other AFAIK let alone shine a beam in each other's direction. No one questions these things. The Reapers showed up and everyone's IQ dropped. Even Mordin's. Especially Mordin's.

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