Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by Rifneno Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:38 pm

magnetite wrote:There are still people who believe the person in the rubble isn't Shepard, even though the game files prove it.

Or basic common sense. The person's gender changes to match Shepard's.

I think the best though isn't even Mass Effect and IT. It's Witcher. There's still people who don't believe that

Spoiler:

. The game spells it out for you. There's lots of subtle little things like IT has and then at the end it extremely heavily implies it. Geralt even outright discusses the possibility with Dandelion after finding near-absolute proof (and absolute proof can be found by going all us-analyzation on the game's dialogue). Still, there's people who don't believe anything the writer didn't tell them in giant flashing Christmas lights. It doesn't matter how strongly something is implied or suggested, unless the writer flat out TELLS them, they refuse to put 2 and 2 together themselves. I really hate these assholes so fucking much. They encourage fiction to suck.

Speaking of stuff the game files tell us outright, remember this beauty?

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 23 CNIwxCJ

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 23 CNIwxCJ

Some new thing about the kid or the ending in general.

Man I hate that fucking place. Suramar is absolutely gorgeous but I still hate playing there because of those goddamn illusion nazis. The east side of the city is absolutely unbearable. Fuck Japan, we should've nuked East Suramar.

magnetite wrote:There are multiple interpretations of IT.

That's putting it mildly. It's hard to find 2 hardcore IT'ers (i.e. not just some random fan that saw an article about IT, went "that sounds right!" and never delved into the topic) that believe the same thing. We agree that the end with Starbrat is an indoctrination attempt. Literally everything else is still debated. When the hallucination starts, how much is the real world, what happens afterwards, whether control and synthesis are equally bad, everything.

triggerwarning wrote:@ Rifneno

When I say bad writing, I'm referring to the borderline retarded literal explanation for why the Reapers reap- for IT to work requires a functional literal counterpoint.

You mean another, legit motivation for the Reapers? Naw. They're designed as Lovecraftian horrors. Like 80% Lovecraftian horror, 20% AM from I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream (or Skynet from Terminator if you don't recognize AM). Everyone tries to do Lovecraftian horror nowadays, and almost all the time it's just "let's stick tentacles on something big!" But the Reapers are a REAL Lovecraftian horror. They follow all the little themes Lovecraft stuck to, even ones everyone else ignores like using slime and such instead of blood and gore for horror. People ignore it nowadays because it's largely agreed that that theme was just HP's shall we say, issues with women. But the Reapers even follow that theme, turning people into slime.

I say this all because one of the biggest things with Lovecraft was that the motivations and logical workings of the alien horrors are not comprehensible to humans. They're just too... alien. In fact, Lovecraft's protaganists often lose their mind when they try to understand. You know, like a Shepard that tries to understand the Reapers and gets talked into synthesis instead of just focusing on destroying them?

Vigil spelled it out back in 1. "The Reapers are alien. Unknowable. Perhaps they need slaves or resources. More likely they are driven by motives and goals organic beings cannot hope to comprehend. In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them. "

I'm also referring to certain nonsensical elements starting at the beam run that are explained as being intentional to indicate something is wrong or outright hallucinatory that I think are just not that well executed. There's a big difference between ambiguity and things just not making any sense.

Not really. That's the entire point.

I'd also like to point out that the brilliant writing in the series is largely based on the groundwork already laid out by Drew Karpyshyn. Mac and Casey did not do a very good job in executing IT in my opinion. Yes I do believe some version of IT is intended but which version and what the consequences are remain convoluted and difficult to ascertain. It's a great idea that was poorly written.

I agree, but writing isn't a linear path. The ending was almost certainly worked out between them before the public had even first heard the words "Mass Effect." Remember that Karpyshyn talked about the ending they had decided on when he was part of the team. People focus on the differences but it's largely the same as what we got. The only difference is the Reapers' bullshit excuse. Karpyshyn's was about dark energy and the one we got was about AI revolts, but it was still the same thing: Reapers parley and you're given a choice of whether or not to pursue their destruction after having heard their "reasoning." So I think yes, Karpyshyn played a big part in the ending. Some elements were just tweaked after he left. The foundation of it remains the same however.

Maybe bad writing has certain connotations with this group, but my point is there is a lot to be desired from the ending that just isn't delivered.

The connotation that "bad writing" has around here is that it's an excuse idiots use to handwave evidence of IT. We present some evidence for our side, like the presence of oily shadows and whispers you can't make out (which both have their roots in Lovecrafts work, I'm just saying) in the dreams. They'll tell us it's just "bad writing lol". There is no talking to these sub-human, sub-sapient arguments for the reinstitution of slavery. Everything is just dismissed as bad writing. And they saw there's something called "confirmation bias" on Oprah, and confirmation bias means that everyone who disagrees with them about anything is wrong. I fantasize about a world in which we can legally hunt these people.

An analogy. The famous Nazca Lines. We say that their shape is intentional but the means to design and create them is yet unexplained. Fuckwits we often deal with say that the ancient peoples of Nazca got drunk a lot and just went in random directions. They feel that we're reaching when we say there's purposeful images in the lines. They also feel that it's bullshit they can't marry their cousins.

by Terramine Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:41 pm

triggerwarning wrote:
When I say bad writing, I'm referring to the borderline retarded literal explanation for why the Reapers reap- for IT to work requires a functional literal counterpoint.

We really don't know what you're talkin about M8. The INTENTIONS behind the Reapers' actions become kind of OBVIOUS and make PERFECT SENSE with Indoctrination Theory. If you don't get why Hitler and the Nazis started brainwashing people. Then you're just stupid. That's all there is to it. The Reapers' reproduction literally requires other species and it requires killing them in mass. Nobody is going to CONSENSUALLY agree to that. So the Reapers have to DECEIVE and MANIPULATE.

Do you even know WHY the explanation we're given at face value, is retarded? The whole reason it's stupid. Is literally because it's completely unprecedented. Every moment before the Reapers just kept saying "THERE IS ONLY THE HARVEST, YOU WILL DIE BECAUSE WE DEMAND IT" Even up to ME2 all we got added onto that was "WE ALSO DEMAND IT CAUSE THATS HOW WE MAKE BABIES" with a little dash of Dark Energy breaking the physics of the universe. Nothing to even remotely hint at this Organic VS Synthetic conflict.

Even with the Dark Energy plot. It was literally the Reapers' own fault. Literally THEIR technology was fucking the universe itself up. So low and behold. The best solution is probably to just blow the motherfuckers up. Simple. It even gave us a motivation to stick with what was clearly intended the whole time.

triggerwarning wrote:
I'm also referring to certain nonsensical elements starting at the beam run that are explained as being intentional to indicate something is wrong or outright hallucinatory that I think are just not that well executed. There's a big difference between ambiguity and things just not making any sense.

Sorry but piles and piles of Kaidan/Ashley corpses for miles on end. Seems pretty clear and... not ambiguous at all. The fact that Shepard takes a Reaper laser head on and "survives" is not ambiguous. Especially when we're being shown an ENDLESS WAVE of soldiers is getting lazered into complete NOTHINGNESS. Broken down into mere PARTICLES. But Shepard of all people remains in tact?

The fact that Shepard is isolated and left alone in this situation all because someone makes a call that the writers made it explicitly clear not but 2 minutes ago. Would NOT happen. They explicitly made the primary authority in the area say that there was NO TURNING BACK. But Coats just turns around and usurps his order?

You're still falling to Rif's point that Literalists and criticizers of IT never actually explain IN DETAIL what exactly is flawed about IT. You're pussyfooting around the issue, making vague references. STOP THAT. If there is anything then just COME OUT AND SAY IT BLUNTLY. Cause otherwise, you're just an idiot that needs to keep his mouth shut.

triggerwarning wrote:
I'd also like to point out that the brilliant writing in the series is largely based on the groundwork already laid out by Drew Karpyshyn. Mac and Casey did not do a very good job in executing IT in my opinion. Yes I do believe some version of IT is intended but which version and what the consequences are remain convoluted and difficult to ascertain. It's a great idea that was poorly written. Maybe bad writing has certain connotations with this group, but my point is there is a lot to be desired from the ending that just isn't delivered.

Again give an actual example or shut up. An IT reveal is only required in Original IT. My interpretation circumvents that altogether.

by Terramine Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:51 pm

Rifneno wrote:Karpyshyn's was about dark energy and the one we got was about AI revolts, but it was still the same thing: Reapers parley and you're given a choice of whether or not to pursue their destruction after having heard their "reasoning." So I think yes, Karpyshyn played a big part in the ending. Some elements were just tweaked after he left. The foundation of it remains the same however.

Funny enough. You're completely glossing over the part that by "pursue the Reaper's destruction" what you ACTUALLY mean is that Shepard refuses to accept their bullshit narrative altogether. From here, what happens afterward is left ambiguous.

There is no tube to shoot. There's nothing in the script about WITNESSING the destruction of the Reapers. It's just vaguely implied that by saying NO in the decision. Shepard and the galactic forces will continue to look for some way to destroy them.

Which would eventually lead to their downfall. 1 for 1. The Refuse ending in the EC. Stop trying to ignore it.

by Rifneno Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:04 pm

Looks like IP is throwing more feces over his fence in the form of these North Korean word salads. Not gonna read that, but I heard about your breakdown in chat yesterday (apparently their favorite part was how you opened with calling them shitheads and then cried no one was being civil to you) and I just wanted to share this gif I saw that so reminded me of you.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 23 YqOjg

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 23 YqOjg

by Terramine Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:09 pm

Rifneno wrote:Looks like IP is throwing more feces over his fence in the form of these North Korean word salads. Not gonna read that, but I heard about your breakdown in chat yesterday (apparently their favorite part was how you opened with calling them shitheads and then cried no one was being civil to you) and I just wanted to share this gif I saw that so reminded me of you.

Don't be a hypocrite tho. You talk smack on people all the time. I'm sure nobody really likes you either.

Refuse is the only ending that even remotely implies IT outright. It's the only one that bluntly acknowledges the "choice" is just a trick by the Reapers.

by Terramine Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:12 pm

Also has nobody seen Anime? Or really just any grungy type character in any work of fiction ever? And that whenever some stranger calls you a "shithead". That DOESN'T suddenly make them your automatic enemy? Like seriously.

I can CALL you all shitheads BECAUSE you've been total dicks to me from the start. I do not accept the narrative that I explicitly resorted to insults and bullying before you all did.

But of course. Nobody would grow to hate this community with the way they act? Especially when who they Target is literally just everybody and anybody. They don't even have a real in-group when it comes to IT.

by magnetite Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:19 pm

Speaking of stuff the game files tell us outright, remember this beauty?

Or this one. Which is used for the Starchild himself. The name was Dreamlight_tile. Which is located in the file BioD_End002DLC_400Guardian.pcc nonetheless.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 23 EQdheV3l

Interestingly enough, the file name must have been changed after the EC, because it's not in the main game anywhere.

by Rifneno Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:11 pm

magnetite wrote:

Speaking of stuff the game files tell us outright, remember this beauty?

Or this one. Which is used for the Starchild himself. The name was Dreamlight_tile. Which is located in the file BioD_End002DLC_400Guardian.pcc nonetheless.

Interestingly enough, the file name must have been changed after the EC, because it's not in the main game anywhere.

You sure that's in the ending? I remember seeing it and trying to find it somewhere in the ending but failing. The only place I did find it in the game was on Thessia. When Kai Lame had that orb that showed an image of TIM being a stupid asshole, the orb/TIM had that effect. I never figured out how "dream" could be interpreted to TIM on Thessia with context to IT, or really any context at all so I never discussed it. I certainly miss some shit though - I found the hidden trees in the decision chamber like the first week but I didn't figure out their significance so I never said anything. Opps. Talk about missing a big one, right?

Anyway. I don't remember anything "rainbowy" in the ending. Where did you see it in the ending? I'm not doubting you, I just want to know what I missed. In hindsight, I probably didn't recognize it because of a post processing effect that made it look a bit different. Not "rainbowy" or something. Was that the white shit coming off Starbrat? His PPE that makes him look all ghosty made it not look all... Skittles?

Fuck, now I want some Skittles. :(

by Terramine Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:18 am

Those trees are definitely not insignificant. Just knowing that there WAS going to be trees in the decision chamber sets off major red flags. Why the shit would there be trees there? Why would the Crucible scientists put them there? Or why would the blueprints talk about adding trees? It doesn't make sense. It's so frivolous when you're basically designing the control room for a super weapon that is going to save the entire galaxy and you need that weapon PRONTO. So you're going to waste time making it look nice? What?

It doesn't help that, the Boy was first seen playing around a tree. It would have made it pretty obvious that it's not just the Boy that is constructed from Shep's memories. But rather, the whole room. I mean it's already somewhat obvious with the Mako tires and Normandy cords. As well the glass tube for Destroy that basically looks like the tubes we shot when fighting the Proto-Reaper.

To some extent tho you can tell the decision chamber was designed to strike AWE in anyone who "enters" it. It's a place that just happens to basically be the alleged home of the collective conscious of the Reapers. We are in the presence of a being that looks like a child that strikes vulnerability in the Protag's heart. On top of the entire "room" being this colossal shit.

by magnetite Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:44 am

Yes, that is the wavy texture used on the Starchild. It's in the DLC files DLC_CON_END>CookedPCConsole>default.sfar.

You need to extract the SFAR file with ME3Explorer and view it with either UModel, or you can look it up with ME3Explorer.

Here's a full list of game files with it.

If that is a specular texture, the yellow and red parts will indicate the shininess of the Starchild himself. While the other colors have less shininess to them.

by Raistlin Majere Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:10 am

Honestly for all of the Reapers beeing unknowable Lovecraftian horrors, we were presented with one compelling and incredibly simple motivation for them or at least what the cycle is about, by EDI.

Their reproduction cycle. Simple and makes us so far below them.

by magnetite Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:46 pm

Starchild texture with Texmod. It's the same one.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 23 P6Ny3nI

by Terramine Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:22 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:Honestly for all of the Reapers being unknowable Lovecraftian horrors, we were presented with one compelling and incredibly simple motivation for them or at least what the cycle is about, by EDI.

Their reproduction cycle. Simple and makes us so far below them.

The funny thing is. They probably are legitimately immortal. So why the hell they need to reproduce is beyond me. I think this means their motivation has to be deeper still. To put it mildly. They probably selfishly want to keep advancing.

They know the evolutionary line they are on, is highly immoral to begin with. So it's not their prerogative to stop simply because their victims don't want it. They just want to dominate the evolutionary pinnacle and don't care what it takes to get there.

by ZerebusPrime Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:50 am

No, even immortal races need to reproduce. The Reapers can and do suffer losses, so their numbers must be replenished. Also, they probably benefit from having large numbers of themselves in ways both foreseen and unforeseen.

Moreover, they are using the galaxy as a giant laboratory. Harbinger said as such in ME2. The cycle is used as a means of advancement as well as reproduction.

by dorktainian Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:33 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:Honestly for all of the Reapers beeing unknowable Lovecraftian horrors, we were presented with one compelling and incredibly simple motivation for them or at least what the cycle is about, by EDI.

Their reproduction cycle. Simple and makes us so far below them.

exactly. harvest organic material for new reapers. use the kai lame excuse that its for our own good.

god damn you bioware.

by Rifneno Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:44 pm

Reproduction doesn't fully explain it. Most importantly, it doesn't explain their incredible malice and hatred of 'lesser' species. An analogy. Our life cycle (pretty much) requires the deaths of animals such as cows and pigs. We consume them, we don't use them to build new humans, but that's a fairly irrelevant difference. Nobody hates farm animals. Almost all of us are actually sympathetic toward them but recognize the necessity of meat. The Reapers hate 'lesser' species. Greatly. Why?

Another thing is the inefficiency of the cycle. We raise animals to slaughter in special areas where their entire lives are controlled by us. The Reapers don't do anything like this. They just come in at regular intervals and hunt organic races to extinction. It's very inefficient.

The extinction thing is another point. Why is it necessary to hunt a species to extinction? I can understand knocking them back technologically so they're not a threat later on, but there's no reason to ruthlessly and relentlessly hunt down every last individual.

Reproduction is definitely part of it, but there's more to the story. It leaves a great many questions unanswered.

by dorktainian Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:58 pm

Rifneno wrote:Reproduction doesn't fully explain it. Most importantly, it doesn't explain their incredible malice and hatred of 'lesser' species. An analogy. Our life cycle (pretty much) requires the deaths of animals such as cows and pigs. We consume them, we don't use them to build new humans, but that's a fairly irrelevant difference. Nobody hates farm animals. Almost all of us are actually sympathetic toward them but recognize the necessity of meat. The Reapers hate 'lesser' species. Greatly. Why?

Another thing is the inefficiency of the cycle. We raise animals to slaughter in special areas where their entire lives are controlled by us. The Reapers don't do anything like this. They just come in at regular intervals and hunt organic races to extinction. It's very inefficient.

The extinction thing is another point. Why is it necessary to hunt a species to extinction? I can understand knocking them back technologically so they're not a threat later on, but there's no reason to ruthlessly and relentlessly hunt down every last individual.

Reproduction is definitely part of it, but there's more to the story. It leaves a great many questions unanswered.

I've theorised before in regards to Leviathan. Could the fact that the lower species rebelled against leviathan be the answer here? Purely then as an act of spite, did they ensure they got their 'tribute' (which the rebelling races of the time denied them) by obliterating the species of the time - an act of bastardry? (locked away in a reaper for the rest of time.... a permanant reminder of who they wiped out - almost a trophy if you will - maybe even locking them in a recurring nightmare to ensure their eternal suffering?).

Leviathan itself said the reapers still serve their purpose.

by Rifneno Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:36 pm

dorktainian wrote:
Rifneno wrote:Reproduction doesn't fully explain it. Most importantly, it doesn't explain their incredible malice and hatred of 'lesser' species. An analogy. Our life cycle (pretty much) requires the deaths of animals such as cows and pigs. We consume them, we don't use them to build new humans, but that's a fairly irrelevant difference. Nobody hates farm animals. Almost all of us are actually sympathetic toward them but recognize the necessity of meat. The Reapers hate 'lesser' species. Greatly. Why?

Another thing is the inefficiency of the cycle. We raise animals to slaughter in special areas where their entire lives are controlled by us. The Reapers don't do anything like this. They just come in at regular intervals and hunt organic races to extinction. It's very inefficient.

The extinction thing is another point. Why is it necessary to hunt a species to extinction? I can understand knocking them back technologically so they're not a threat later on, but there's no reason to ruthlessly and relentlessly hunt down every last individual.

Reproduction is definitely part of it, but there's more to the story. It leaves a great many questions unanswered.

I've theorised before in regards to Leviathan. Could the fact that the lower species rebelled against leviathan be the answer here? Purely then as an act of spite, did they ensure they got their 'tribute' (which the rebelling races of the time denied them) by obliterating the species of the time - an act of bastardry? (locked away in a reaper for the rest of time.... a permanant reminder of who they wiped out - almost a trophy if you will - maybe even locking them in a recurring nightmare to ensure their eternal suffering?).

Leviathan itself said the reapers still serve their purpose.

Well you know my thoughts on that subject. I'm reasonably certain, in the neighborhood of 95%, that Leviathan is either still allied with the Reapers or is just a Reaper in a Halloween costume. I'd sooner believer that the Keepers are the remnants of the Reapers' creator species than this "Leviathan" act.

I mean, fuck, anyone remember when we first datamined Leviathan? It wasn't a new organic creature then. Leviathan was a Sovereign class Reaper that turned traitor. It was basically jailed in an automated torture machine. Going from that to finding the Reapers' creators is a big, BIG change in plot. But one Reaper trick to another isn't. Kind of like how we went from "our goals are good! We're just trying to stop dark energy! Join us!" to the exact same thing with AI rebellion as the premise.

by dorktainian Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:43 am

Rifneno wrote:
dorktainian wrote:
Rifneno wrote:Reproduction doesn't fully explain it. Most importantly, it doesn't explain their incredible malice and hatred of 'lesser' species. An analogy. Our life cycle (pretty much) requires the deaths of animals such as cows and pigs. We consume them, we don't use them to build new humans, but that's a fairly irrelevant difference. Nobody hates farm animals. Almost all of us are actually sympathetic toward them but recognize the necessity of meat. The Reapers hate 'lesser' species. Greatly. Why?

Another thing is the inefficiency of the cycle. We raise animals to slaughter in special areas where their entire lives are controlled by us. The Reapers don't do anything like this. They just come in at regular intervals and hunt organic races to extinction. It's very inefficient.

The extinction thing is another point. Why is it necessary to hunt a species to extinction? I can understand knocking them back technologically so they're not a threat later on, but there's no reason to ruthlessly and relentlessly hunt down every last individual.

Reproduction is definitely part of it, but there's more to the story. It leaves a great many questions unanswered.

I've theorised before in regards to Leviathan. Could the fact that the lower species rebelled against leviathan be the answer here? Purely then as an act of spite, did they ensure they got their 'tribute' (which the rebelling races of the time denied them) by obliterating the species of the time - an act of bastardry? (locked away in a reaper for the rest of time.... a permanant reminder of who they wiped out - almost a trophy if you will - maybe even locking them in a recurring nightmare to ensure their eternal suffering?).

Leviathan itself said the reapers still serve their purpose.

Well you know my thoughts on that subject. I'm reasonably certain, in the neighborhood of 95%, that Leviathan is either still allied with the Reapers or is just a Reaper in a Halloween costume. I'd sooner believer that the Keepers are the remnants of the Reapers' creator species than this "Leviathan" act.

I mean, fuck, anyone remember when we first datamined Leviathan? It wasn't a new organic creature then. Leviathan was a Sovereign class Reaper that turned traitor. It was basically jailed in an automated torture machine. Going from that to finding the Reapers' creators is a big, BIG change in plot. But one Reaper trick to another isn't. Kind of like how we went from "our goals are good! We're just trying to stop dark energy! Join us!" to the exact same thing with AI rebellion as the premise.

wouldn't it almost be the ultimate act of spite for the reapers (yeah leviathan included) to subject mortals to eternal damnation because they failed to worship them as the gods they thought they were? I also never bought totally the idea that the leviathan were actually in hiding from the reapers, just that they were in hiding and nobody was ever meant to find them. They didn't kill that reaper, they just turned it off. Did it explode into a million pieces? nope. Maybe they studied us through the orbs until we were ready for harvesting then whammmmo reaper invasion and another cycle begins. Think of it as they were watching their cattle until their cattle were ready for the slaughterhouse.

by ZerebusPrime Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:57 pm

One must remember the research subjects undertaken by the Leviathans. Turian pain tolerance? What the Hell could that be of any use for... unless you're currently fighting Turians?

And who was fighting the Turians? The Reapers.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:22 pm

Rif is right about the Reapers being very Lovecraftian.

Though if there actually is an understandable purpose for the cycles, it's probably very simple;

- Reproduction
- Making sure they stay the top dogs in the galaxy. Take out the competition before it gets a chance to threaten them.

by Rifneno Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:53 pm

dorktainian wrote:wouldn't it almost be the ultimate act of spite for the reapers (yeah leviathan included) to subject mortals to eternal damnation because they failed to worship them as the gods they thought they were?

I think you might've really hit onto something there. One of the signs of late stage indoctrination is, of course, viewing the Reapers with godlike awe. I can't really think of any tactical reasoning for that modification. Now it's quite possible it's another Lovecraft reference - the alien horrors in Lovecraft's works were often worshiped by insane, corrupted people. But we can't rule out the possibility that they're just pissy over not being thought of as highly as they think of themselves.

In fact, I had a theory... hmm. I'm reluctant to share because it'd kind of make me a hypocrite. It's a bit scary door and I just chewed out DD for that. Eh, it's only a few sentences that don't promote genocide. What if Harbinger isn't really any sort of "leader" of the Reapers? There's no hard evidence he is, and the only evidence that isn't vapor is Leviathan's word. And we're here discussing what a lying son of a bitch Leviathan is. They tell us that Harbinger is "bigger" than the other Reaper capital ships but there's nothing to support that. If he is bigger, it's a VERY insignificant amount. So my theory is this: what if Harbinger is only being imbued with these qualities because we're viewing things through the lens of Shepards experiences and Shepard is being indoctrinated by Harbinger? What if all this shit about being the oldest, biggest, smartest, awesomest Reaper is just a side effect of Shepard's ongoing indoctrination? Plus, realistically what are the chances that the first Reaper is still around, fighting on the front lines even in a very unpredictable and casuality-laden cycle, and letting the enemy know he's the leader? Some cycle would've taken him out by now.

I also never bought totally the idea that the leviathan were actually in hiding from the reapers, just that they were in hiding and nobody was ever meant to find them. They didn't kill that reaper, they just turned it off. Did it explode into a million pieces? nope. Maybe they studied us through the orbs until we were ready for harvesting then whammmmo reaper invasion and another cycle begins. Think of it as they were watching their cattle until their cattle were ready for the slaughterhouse.

Hell, they probably didn't even turn it off. Probably just told it to go limp. It was nothing more than a dog playing dead. You know there's actually twats who think that the Reaper would've been fucked up by the ocean water? Jesus Christ, these are ancient alien god-machines, not some $20 toy robot from Wal-Mart. FFS, one of the first things the Reapers did when they hit Earth was dive in the Atlantic Ocean and break the undersea fiber optic cables connecting North America and Europe's communications. What about aquatic races? They think the Reapers wouldn't be designed to be able to fight aquatic species at all? People are fucking idiots.

The only thing you said I disagree with is the part about the Leviathans watching to see when the meat is ready to be cooked. The Reapers invade every 50,000 solar years like clockwork regardless of the species' technological advancement. This suggests to me that they're running a cycle of cycles. They have a whole bunch of galaxies on schedule and just run down the list, repeating when they get to the end. It'd only take the Reapers about 200 years to get to Andromeda with standard FTL, which is a drop in the bucket of 50,000.

ZerebusPrime wrote:One must remember the research subjects undertaken by the Leviathans. Turian pain tolerance? What the Hell could that be of any use for... unless you're currently fighting Turians?

And who was fighting the Turians? The Reapers.

Not even just fighting but super-torturing. Normal war doesn't require torture, let alone super-torture. Plus, remember that the Leviathans were studying human biotic ability. At the end of the last Mass Effect book that wasn't shit, the Reapers were also very interested in that topic. Probably to aid in building the human Reaper. And here we have the Leviathans studying a topic we know the Reapers are studying. Oh yeah, they're totally not on the same payroll. Nope, no way.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:10 am

Good point with the Turian pain tolerance tests. The Leviathans are highly suspect.

As for the Harbinger theory, it's entirely possible, but there's no way to be sure of any of that.

And as far as my 'scary door' theory goes, I personally think it's not all that scary door, tbph. (I am not into scary door stuff at all). It's actually not far-fetched. Javik's cautionary tale about the Zha'til right before the Rannoch missions carries obvious parallels to the current Geth - Quarian situation. And then right after the mission the symbiosis happens. The Reaper upgrades that the Geth previously never wanted but suddenly do. Legion lying, withholding information. It's all there. It's not like you need to be smoking crack to notice these things.

The way I see it, they put all that in the storyline to give players a roleplaying justification for siding with the Quarians. Perhaps you can agree that at the very least the fear of those things happening (the Reaper code being dangerous) is entirely and clearly supported by the narrative.

by CSSteele Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:14 pm

The idea is there, sure, it gives credence to both sides of things. It could also be postulated that the reason it's in there is for just another push for the end justification for synthesis. Hard to say since they never gave us a real follow-up.

by Rifneno Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:23 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:As for the Harbinger theory, it's entirely possible, but there's no way to be sure of any of that.

Yeah, that's why I called it kind of scary door.

And as far as my 'scary door' theory goes, I personally think it's not all that scary door, tbph.

Scary door was initially created for dem and Swoby's drug-induced hallucinations of reality. When they'd look at the way an asari's head tentacles curve and go "Oh my GOD, THE GALAXY IS SECRETLY BEING RUN BY A RACE OF SUPERINTELLIGENT FURBIES!" or some such. But whether something was crazy and stupid is entirely a matter of opinion, so we needed a better measuring stick. In the end, we pretty much decided on it being theories that have little to no real evidence and a lot of supposition and "what if".

You know, like your geth stupidity.

(I am not into scary door stuff at all). It's actually not far-fetched. Javik's cautionary tale about the Zha'til right before the Rannoch missions carries obvious parallels to the current Geth - Quarian situation. And then right after the mission the symbiosis happens. The Reaper upgrades that the Geth previously never wanted but suddenly do. Legion lying, withholding information. It's all there. It's not like you need to be smoking crack to notice these things.

The way I see it, they put all that in the storyline to give players a roleplaying justification for siding with the Quarians. Perhaps you can agree that at the very least the fear of those things happening (the Reaper code being dangerous) is entirely and clearly supported by the narrative.

Remember how IP initially alienated everyone? He kept ranting about refuse and refused to listen to any counterarguments. He acted as if there were none. And he just kept going.

Well congratulations, you're turning into IP! Shall we start calling you IronicDevice?

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