The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:53 pm

Eryri wrote:I like this idea. Maybe the Thorian is a botched attempt to grow a reaper, which they felt disinclined to destroy as it was still one of them, (much like the Daleks and their asylum in a recent Dr Who).

RavenEyry wrote:Maybe 'organic QECs' are a common evolutionary step, for non humanoids?

Not just non-humanoids, the Asari's mind-meld seems quite similar. And people have speculated that Shepard's preternatural charisma and ability to inspire loyalty represets the emergence of this sort of ability in humans.

We're on exactly the same page here.

And its not like "Hurr durr Shepard mind controls people". No. He offers choice, in all of their mental processes. But he INSPIRES, either as Paragon or Renegade.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by southbeatz on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:50 pm

401 Kill wrote:Oooh nice, I have never thought of this before but it makes sense. There are only three examples of Organics being able to "indoctrinate". The Leviathans, who created the Reapers then, can live extremely long, and we're hunted by the Reapers. Then the Thorian, who could have been a failed attempt of a Reaper. We have been thinking it might be a way to counter indoctrination if you are connected to others, but it really is the same thing. I forget his name, but the "leader" of the Feros colony could break away from being Indoctrinated only to kill himself.

Ann Bryson and Shialla (I messed up the spelling didn't I?) both say "I swear I'm still indoctrinated."

Saren, TIM, the leader on Feros all had to kill themselves to break indoctrination on their own. Saren and TIM cna be killed but for them to break it themselves they had to commit suicide. It seems that's the typical way to break indoctrination, hopefully not for Shepard though.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:There are so many parallels between Reapers and certain organics...

At some point in the game, Traynor is listing all the capabilities of the Rachni, and it struck me that she might as well have been talking about the Reapers.

The ability to take control of victims, to speak through another's body, using some organic form of quantum entanglement communication, etcetera.

I think the Rachni and the Thorian are experiments. Is it the Leviathan or the Reapers conducting the experiments? The Leviathan believe themselves to be the apex species yet they hide from the Reapers. The Reapers believe they must harvest species in order to prevent the chaos yet the Reapers seem to be who creates the chaos. I believe the Rachni were a Reaper test to make more useful soldiers for the Reapers. I believe the Thorian is a Leviathan test. The Reapers may have harvested some Leviathan but the Reapers still know what the Leviathan can do. The Thorian seemingly could disrupt the Reapers so the Reapers would not have created something that could effect them so maybe the Leviathan experimented. Maybe Sovereign had Saren locate the Thorian with intentions of killing it since it possibly could affect Reapers. The Leviathan may have used the Thorian in an attempt to recreate some of what the Reapers were doing to fight fire with fire so to speak. Leviathans are patient so who knows what their plan may have been.

Eryri wrote:I like this idea. Maybe the Thorian is a botched attempt to grow a reaper, which they felt disinclined to destroy as it was still one of them, (much like the Daleks and their asylum in a recent Dr Who).

Not just non-humanoids, the Asari's mind-meld seems quite similar. And people have speculated that Shepard's preternatural charisma and ability to inspire loyalty represets the emergence of this sort of ability in humans.

Interesting bit of video here related to this somewhat possibly...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_TLBY9YRa8
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by CSSteele on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:06 am

I don't know. The Reapers are all about the hybridization, not full on Organic like the Thorian is. Why would they 'grow' a fully organic attempt of themselves, when they know they came from the Levitathans? That's my major hang-up with the idea.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Rifneno on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:53 am

CSSteele wrote:I don't know. The Reapers are all about the hybridization, not full on Organic like the Thorian is. Why would they 'grow' a fully organic attempt of themselves, when they know they came from the Levitathans? That's my major hang-up with the idea.

What makes you think the Thorian is fully organic? Because it looks organic from the outside? I doubt plants will ever evolve the ability to spit out fully functional adult clones of alien species in a matter of seconds.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by CSSteele on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:57 am

Fair point, I suppose. I have nothing I can say to disprove it or anything. I think the idea is interesting but there's on way to prove it definintively.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by ElSuperGecko on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:29 pm

southbeatz wrote:I think the Rachni and the Thorian are experiments. Is it the Leviathan or the Reapers conducting the experiments?

Sounds legit.

The Catalyst: "We have tried a... similar solution... before."

Harbinger: "Your worlds will be our laboratories."

And doesn't Leviathan itself talk about the Catalyst using the galaxy as an experiment, with evolution as it's tool?

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Efrath on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:27 pm

You think there's a possiblity the Thorian might perhaps be of the original race that created the reapers? Probably sounds rather farfetched, but I'm just toying with the idea of Thorians, being the stationary creatures they supposedly are, desired to travel freely and explore.

Trough their abilities they manipulated other creatures on their planet to build for them and as they got more advanced, they slowly managed to find out how to be able to travel out to space. However, since Thorians can't move and they seem to die if you disconnect their "Roots" so perhaps the only possiblity of making the desire to travel a reality is to mix flesh with machine...

A crazy idea probably, but just throwing it out there, I'm sure the lot for you that have more knowledge of the ME Universe than me can either improve upon this idea or simply tell me straight in the face that it's not likely. I'm sure there's plenty of flaws in my idea here.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by RavenEyry on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:58 pm

"You try to fight it but it gets in your head! It wants me to stop you but... I wont. I WONT!"
Suicide by predator.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by JamesStone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:53 pm

Rifneno wrote:
CSSteele wrote:Either that, or the Thorian is a Leviathan baby...

I'm definitely going with Proto-Reaper. Why would a Leviathan help the Reapers? Remember, unless it gave the cipher to Saren, Sovereign couldn't have figured out where the Conduit was, and the Reapers would remain trapped in dark space. On a similar note, why would a Leviathan have been spared during the Prothean cycle? The Thorian was around during the Prothean cycle, so why did it survive the harvest? Unlike the Leviathans, it wasn't exactly being inconspicuous there. The Reapers must have spared this thing. Why would they unless it was one of their own?

Hmm. Actually, I wonder... Maybe it didn't have the cipher because it observed the Protheans for millenniums as we thought... maybe it has the cipher because it is Prothean. Protheans are insectoid. This thing could be the failed Prothean Reaper. That would be an interesting twist.

Anyway, there's several other issues with it being Leviathan as well. Leviathans aren't able to make husk-like creatures. At least not on their own like the Thorian can. Their thralling ability is also different. Leviathan thralls went back to being their normal selves (unless it hemorrhaged their brains to permanently silence them) when they were no longer around a Leviathan orb. Even with the Thorian dead, the colonists of Feros weren't free of its indoctrination type effect. That asari even implied that they can sense each other mentally, the same sort of "shared mental functions" that some indoctrination victims get (like the Cerberus workers who both remembered the same woman as their wives). Granted, the Thorian's indoctrination isn't exactly like what we know of the Reapers' either, but it's closer to the Reaper version than the Leviathan version. Lastly, while I realize this is an utterly alien life form, it seems odd that a creature would start out as a land-based fungal creature and then turn into a deep sea crustacean or cephalopod. They're about as far apart in appearance, function, and environment as known organic life forms can get.

That is a very, very cool concept. EDI did mention the Reapers probably tried to create a Prothean Reaper and failed. Perhaps the Thorian is the result of their failure? Anyway, you should post it on BSN, maybe you'll get something good out of it.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by ElSuperGecko on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:13 pm

JamesStone wrote:
That is a very, very cool concept. EDI did mention the Reapers probably tried to create a Prothean Reaper and failed. Perhaps the Thorian is the result of their failure? Anyway, you should post it on BSN, maybe you'll get something good out of it.

O_O

The entire world of Feros is a ruined Prothean city.

Where else would the Reapers choose to build a Prothean Reaper, other than right in the middle of a massive Prothean population centre?

....just like they're doing on Earth?

Also, how would an "immeasurably ancient" life form just find itself right in the middle of the ruins of a civilisation from the previous cycle, unless it was linked in some way to that cycle?

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Eryri on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:43 pm

A failed Prothean Reaper makes a lot of sense. The artwork for the Thorian is a sort of mixture of plant and insect, and the Protheans definitely have an insectoid vibe to them, especially as Collectors.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:23 am

Eryri wrote:A failed Prothean Reaper makes a lot of sense. The artwork for the Thorian is a sort of mixture of plant and insect, and the Protheans definitely have an insectoid vibe to them, especially as Collectors.
Except that it says it existed before the Protheans. It watched them clonize Feros and eventually get wiped out by the Reapers.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Eryri on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:15 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Eryri wrote:A failed Prothean Reaper makes a lot of sense. The artwork for the Thorian is a sort of mixture of plant and insect, and the Protheans definitely have an insectoid vibe to them, especially as Collectors.
Except that it says it existed before the Protheans. It watched them clonize Feros and eventually get wiped out by the Reapers.

Ah. I forgot that point, thanks for reminding me. [sigh] Another beautiful theory, ruined by those pesky facts. ;)
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Humakt on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:23 am

Inusannon?

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Eryri on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:27 am

Humakt83 wrote:Inusannon?

Could be. They have those weird tentacles. Maybe the Reapers tried to make an Inussanon reaper, but realised it was a failure and left it to rot on Feros. However, they kept their research into Inussanon DNA and re-purposed it to make the virus that turns other species into Adjutants?
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by CSSteele on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:35 am

Eryri wrote:
Humakt83 wrote:Inusannon?

Could be. They have those weird tentacles. Maybe the Reapers tried to make an Inussanon reaper, but realised it was a failure and left it to rot on Feros. However, they kept their research into Inussanon DNA and re-purposed it to make the virus that turns other species into Adjutants?

Wait, what?
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Andromidius on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:11 am

Its highly suspected that Adjutants are modified Inussanons, the precursors to the Protheans. Thus its suspected that they were the equivilent to the Collectors during the Prothean era.

This thus hints that Cerberus is intended to become the next Cycle's 'Collectors' - aka Reaper proxie henchmen doing the dirty work while the Reapers hide out in Dark Space.

(Omega DLC, if you're unsure what I'm talking about)
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:36 am

CSSteele wrote:
Wait, what?
Inussanon are the statues on Ilos if that's what you were wondering about. They ruled the cycle before the protheans.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by hukbum on Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:25 pm

I like the idea.
And Inussanon would make a lot of sense (well, from the look of it at least).

And it could also hint on the reapers failure/desparation. No new Reaper in 2 cycles, but they know it'll work with humans.
Could be (when you look at it in a more "literal" way) one reason why the Kid is pushing for synthesis - they fail to reproduce and need a new solution (or more time to study when you look at control).
Both times the Reapers can act openly. All they need to do is study the new species showing up, indoctrinate, reproduce.

Here's something for the list:
The Thorian learned the Prothean language by "consuming" them. Sounds like goo-through pipes to me ...
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by DSharrah on Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:09 pm

Hate to rez a dead thread...but just did Feros in my current replay of the trilogy and I saw something that I saw differently for the first time (amazing how replaying the trilogy with all the discussion that has happened here can change how you see things). Here is a video of Shep's encounter with the thorian (just pay attention to the initial conversation):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXK97ET7Nqg&feature=player_detailpage

Notice the use of the word cycle and the general attitude towards the "thralls"...definetly seems appropriate given the nature of this thread. If the Thorian isn't a prototype reaper, perhaps its an early branch on the evolutionary tree of the Leviathans...

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:28 am

DSharrah wrote:Hate to rez a dead thread...but just did Feros in my current replay of the trilogy and I saw something that I saw differently for the first time (amazing how replaying the trilogy with all the discussion that has happened here can change how you see things).  Here is a video of Shep's encounter with the thorian (just pay attention to the initial conversation):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXK97ET7Nqg&feature=player_detailpage

Notice the use of the word cycle and the general attitude towards the "thralls"...definetly seems appropriate given the nature of this thread.  If the Thorian isn't a prototype reaper, perhaps its an early branch on the evolutionary tree of the Leviathans...
It certainly shares a similar mindset of it being superior and other life as only tools for its continual survival.
Overall, really glad that thing is now mulch.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Rifneno on Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:57 pm

Not that this is evidence for the theory, but Shepard's opinion on the Thorian is the exact write one for the Reapers too.

Salarian councilor: It's just a shame we didn't get a chance to study it.
Shepard: (annoyed) Councilor, the only reason to study something like that is to figure out how to kill it.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:44 am

Rifneno wrote:Not that this is evidence for the theory, but Shepard's opinion on the Thorian is the exact write one for the Reapers too.

Salarian councilor: It's just a shame we didn't get a chance to study it.
Shepard: (annoyed) Councilor, the only reason to study something like that is to figure out how to kill it.
In a different version, Shepard also mentions how sparing it would just result in everyone around it becoming thralls.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:34 am

I like that.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by DSharrah on Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:17 am

Thought that this was relevant here too...

A question about the nature of indoctrination as how it realtes to how the "power has eveolved"? I recently made a post in Rifneno's Thread about the Thorian being a proto-reaper, that basically suggests that the it may not be a reaper, but part of the evolutionary path (Thorian - Leviathan - Reaper). Given that this connection is possible, and we see the effect of what happened to those that were controlled my the Thorian in ME 3 (they were somehow mentally connected)...is it possible that any individual(s) that were indoctrinated that survived the "reaper's destruction due to our ending decision", could similarly be connected? In the case of the Thorian survivors' Shiala acted as a guiding force...could a Shepard that survives be the same for Reaper survivors'?

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