The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

dork wrote:at last young shepard.......you will die.

an ominous silence comes over the decision chamber as shepard nears death. Then with a look of utter hatred in his eyes, starjar the flatulent attacked shepard with his arse-logic.

shepard began to roll around in agony. clutching his head screaming 'no more, no more', when out of the shadows came a blur that moved with precision and purpose. The blur extended a foot, and without warning, starjar was dropkicked into space where he exploded in a cascade of arsiness.

Shepard turned around and looked at what appeared to be a smoking corpse on the floor. however it was not a smoking corpse, but the remnants of The Illusive Man. Torn and twisted, blackened and burnt.

Finally he had redeemed himself. He had broken free of indoctrination, and at that moment had sacrificed himself knowingly and without question to save humanity from destruction by the reapers.

I lol'd so hard.

Andromidius wrote:That being said, "So be it" sounds a lot like a shoutout/homage to Return of the Jedi. As is the final space battle being fought while they watch on a giant space station.

Three battles at once:

-A space battle
-A fireteam on the ground to ensure victory for the fleet in space
-A third battle between the hero and villain where the hero is tested by temptation to turn evil, in a setting that is almost totally removed from the other battles, as if in another reality, but where the space battle can still be seen. Also, this battle, while the most important, has no effect on the fleet or ground teams no matter the outcome.

reapers gotta die. whats the best way to accomplish that?

i still think the citadel itself is key. destroy the citadel and destroy the reapers.





also....get rid of the keepers at the same time.......they bug the hell out of me.

dork wrote:reapers gotta die. whats the best way to accomplish that?

i still think the citadel itself is key. destroy the citadel and destroy the reapers.

Again, just like the Star Wars movies. Blow up the Death Star, and the Empire retreats even though they could still slaughter the Rebellion.

Selim Bradley wrote:

dork wrote:reapers gotta die. whats the best way to accomplish that?

i still think the citadel itself is key. destroy the citadel and destroy the reapers.

Again, just like the Star Wars movies. Blow up the Death Star, and the Empire retreats even though they could still slaughter the Rebellion.

I was thinking more like the ring in lord of the rings. sovereign/harbinger puts so much of his power into it, when its destroyed it makes em vulnerable and weak......and they are destroyed

dork wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

dork wrote:reapers gotta die. whats the best way to accomplish that?

i still think the citadel itself is key. destroy the citadel and destroy the reapers.

Again, just like the Star Wars movies. Blow up the Death Star, and the Empire retreats even though they could still slaughter the Rebellion.

I was thinking more like the ring in lord of the rings. sovereign/harbinger puts so much of his power into it, when its destroyed it makes em vulnerable and weak......and they are destroyed

Well, in the EU of Star Wars it's explained that the Emperor was influencing the fleet, so when he died they got uncoordinated and that's why they lost so many ships and had to retreat.

dork wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

dork wrote:reapers gotta die. whats the best way to accomplish that?

i still think the citadel itself is key. destroy the citadel and destroy the reapers.

Again, just like the Star Wars movies. Blow up the Death Star, and the Empire retreats even though they could still slaughter the Rebellion.

I was thinking more like the ring in lord of the rings. sovereign/harbinger puts so much of his power into it, when its destroyed it makes em vulnerable and weak......and they are destroyed

That just sounds way to much like a "Reaper off" button to me. Also it would be pretty lame for them to essentially make the same mistake as Sovereign, just on a far larger scale.

Yet we do need an "off button" of sorts, if you expect to defeat the Reapers during DLC. E.g infiltrate the Citadel, see the effects of the preparations you did, meet people to fight alongside with, save who you can, and finally... blow it up. Beats using the Crucible.

Either way, I sure as hell won't anxiously wait to see what happens in notME4. I'm not expecting greatness from it, I'm expecting a quick cash grab (a bit like DA2, except there might actually be decent MP).

No off buttons. That's cheap.

Only way we can 'win' is by forcing a retreat, and to defeat them later on.

Andromidius wrote:No off buttons. That's cheap.

Only way we can 'win' is by forcing a retreat, and to defeat them later on.

+1

BleedingUranium wrote:

Andromidius wrote:That being said, "So be it" sounds a lot like a shoutout/homage to Return of the Jedi. As is the final space battle being fought while they watch on a giant space station.

Three battles at once:

-A space battle
-A fireteam on the ground to ensure victory for the fleet in space
-A third battle between the hero and villain where the hero is tested by temptation to turn evil, in a setting that is almost totally removed from the other battles, as if in another reality, but where the space battle can still be seen. Also, this battle, while the most important, has no effect on the fleet or ground teams no matter the outcome.

Don't forget the most important thing.
I do not really have to repeat why people think that the Crucible is fishy, do I (unknown tech that is easily to use, yet not to understand; Reapers should have known about that eventually; indoctrinated Rachni Queen knows the location, yet Reapers do no thing; EDI says in the FOB in London that the Reapers are holding back their forces, for reasons never expanded in ME3...)?

And the explaination the 'Catalyst' gives, that they knew of its existance previously but thought it had disappeared many cycles ago.

Oh, except, you know...

THE VERY PREVIOUS CYCLE IN WHICH IT WAS SABOTAGED BY INDOCTRINATED PROTHEANS!

Lies, damn lies. Its a blatant trap. Its just what the trap does that's in question, whether or not its just a harmless decoy or a weapon to be used against Organics.

Andromidius wrote:And the explaination the 'Catalyst' gives, that they knew of its existance previously but thought it had disappeared many cycles ago.

Oh, except, you know...

THE VERY PREVIOUS CYCLE IN WHICH IT WAS SABOTAGED BY INDOCTRINATED PROTHEANS!

Lies, damn lies. Its a blatant trap. Its just what the trap does that's in question, whether or not its just a harmless decoy or a weapon to be used against Organics.

Bloody Hell, how did I miss this? The Crucible was built in the very last cycle before this one, which might as well have been yesterday to this; millions of years old, immortal AI. The lying little bastard!

EDIT: I've just watched a video of the catalyst conversation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yx_smmq_3AE#t=316s

Actually the brat doesn't say when they thought the plans were lost, just that "We thought the concept had been eradicated", so he might have been talking about the Prothean cycle after all. Bummer, I thought we'd found the smoking gun that proved he was lying. Ah well.

I know that I am conmitting the fallacy of mixing reality and what presumably is an indoctrination induced hallucination, but what if using the Crucible - since it is probably a trap - is wrong?

Restrider wrote:I know that I am conmitting the fallacy of mixing reality and what presumably is an indoctrination induced hallucination, but what if using the Crucible - since it is probably a trap - is wrong?

I'm inclined to agree. I would not be surprised if it turned out to be a giant indoctrination amplifier. At the risk of mixing a possible hallucination with reality, if it's just a big dumb battery as the (possibly illusiory) catalyst says, then all it's doing is feeding massive amounts of energy into a reaper built Citadel. Energy which the reapers can use as they see fit.

Eryri wrote:

Restrider wrote:I know that I am conmitting the fallacy of mixing reality and what presumably is an indoctrination induced hallucination, but what if using the Crucible - since it is probably a trap - is wrong?

I'm inclined to agree. I would not be surprised if it turned out to be a giant indoctrination amplifier. At the risk of mixing a possible hallucination with reality, if it's just a big dumb battery as the (possibly illusiory) catalyst says, then all it's doing is feeding massive amounts of energy into a reaper built Citadel. Energy which the reapers can use as they see fit.

I can see that happen, but my idea is then that we can still turn that energy to a purpose of our choosing if we act quick and get / maintain control of the Citadel Controls (We still dont know what the Citadel War Assets are doing and why the Reapers have not shut down the Relays, my guess is the two are connected, that even though the Reapers have gained control of the ward controls the main control is still held by C-Sec forces.).

Then it becomes a massive amount of energy for us to use and several ideas have already risen around that, like reprogramming the Citadel relay into a Mass Accelerator cannon, opening the path to dark space and taking the fight to Reaper turf, overloading the Citadel core taking the entire system and every Reaper there with us.

Eryri wrote:Actually the brat doesn't say when they thought the plans were lost, just that "We thought the concept had been eradicated", so he might have been talking about the Prothean cycle after all. Bummer, I thought we'd found the smoking gun that proved he was lying. Ah well.

Its pretty much saying the same thing though. Why would they think its eradicated at all? If it didn't show up for several Cycles maybe they'd think this. But they KNOW the current Cycle knows about the Protheans, and that they have access to several of their beacons and archives. They even know about a lone Prothean survivor, several active Prothean VI's and that the Crucible is under construction via indoctrinated agent (and Cerberus knows about it too, its not a well-kept secret).

There's no fucking way a logical AI would assume its eradicated with ZERO PROOF to say it is and TONNES OF PROOF saying its still around.

NO FUCKING WAY! NONE!

/ahem

But yeah, some people aren't critical thinkers and so they soak up everything it says without thinking 'hmmm, is this person who's a self-confessed enemy of mine really telling me the truth while not having any reason whatsoever?'

Restrider wrote:I know that I am conmitting the fallacy of mixing reality and what presumably is an indoctrination induced hallucination, but what if using the Crucible - since it is probably a trap - is wrong?

Mostly because Destroy is something you're told is bad. You're told repeatedly "oh, you could destroy us...but bad things will happen and its pointless so trust us don't do it!"

Refuse is...well. Refusing to do anything at all. Ignoring the problem, essentially.

I don't really see Destroy as using the Crucible at all, but blowing it up. You're shooting at it! That alone says you're not really 'using' it, and thus the 'beam' it fires makes even less sense. Who would design an object to only work if you fire a gun at it?

Andromidius wrote:

Restrider wrote:I know that I am conmitting the fallacy of mixing reality and what presumably is an indoctrination induced hallucination, but what if using the Crucible - since it is probably a trap - is wrong?

Mostly because Destroy is something you're told is bad. You're told repeatedly "oh, you could destroy us...but bad things will happen and its pointless so trust us don't do it!"

Refuse is...well. Refusing to do anything at all. Ignoring the problem, essentially.

I don't really see Destroy as using the Crucible at all, but blowing it up. You're shooting at it! That alone says you're not really 'using' it, and thus the 'beam' it fires makes even less sense. Who would design an object to only work if you fire a gun at it?

You are making shit up to say Refuse is doing NOTHING AT ALL. OBJECTIVELY and UNDENIABLY it is ONLY Refusing to use the Crucible in the way the hallucination presents. I really hate when people say this, it's on the same level of wrongness as saying Evolution is supposed to explain how life and the universe began... which would actually be Abiogenesis and the Big Bang. Where is your evidence? You do not have a shred of dialogue, not a single scene, NOTHING to back what you are saying up but everything supports the opposite.

Shepard does not say he is giving up, nor did the galaxy give up. From reductionist perspective, we died fighting which is not doing nothing. From indoctrination perspective, it's the resolve to keep fighting without selling your soul to the devil... that you'd even rather die than sell your soul to the devil.

The Crucible IS a trap, let me ask you... if all they needed was to knock Shepard unconscious, why drag it out and put him right next to the actual WIN machine? They wouldn't, they brought him there on purpose. They positioned the Citadel over earth and whispered in his dreams to come to Earth, then they manipulated everything necessary to lead him there. Then they had indoctrinated agents(Coats, Anderson or whoever... their just the best candidates) lead Shepard into the trap.

The Crucible is definitely part of the trap. Heck the Reapers are vastly above our comprehension, they could've thought to get indoctrinated agents in other cycles to do what it takes to get the galaxy motivated into building the Crucible. If you think about it, every big ass piece of technology laying around is the Reaper's and usually seems to make the Reaper Cycle move faster and more conveniently. So the Crucible, is just an instant win button... for the Reapers. If you push it, it's check mate... just like pushing that button on omega to kill those people, is a checkmate. If you push it many innocents die, if you refuse to push it EVERYBODY LIVES! You don't even refuse THINKING everybody lives, it just supports the idea that you will get rewarded if you do the RIGHT thing.

Edit; Sorry for sounding pissed, I've just heard "Refuse does nothing at all" a little too much and now it's annoying me.

As for how Destroy could be part of the trap... well think of the Geth Consensus, Legion gave Shepard a gun because it was familiar to him. So the Reapers made the hallucination involve shooting something, because it's familiar to Shepard. How exactly does disintegrating yourself in Control and Synthesis USE the Crucible?

IronicParticle wrote:You are making shit up

Nope. Stopped reading there as well.

Refuse shows Shepard doing... NOTHING!

Refuse shows that the Galaxy failed to defeat the Reapers.

That's all you need to know. Just because you personally disagree does NOT mean you can say I'm "making shit up". Because I am NOT.

Andromidius wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:You are making shit up

Nope. Stopped reading there as well.

Refuse shows Shepard doing... NOTHING!

Refuse shows that the Galaxy failed to defeat the Reapers.

That's all you need to know. Just because you personally disagree does NOT mean you can say I'm "making shit up". Because I am NOT.

You know, if you ignore the person's argument you pretty much forfeit.

"Refuse shows Shepard doing... NOTHING!" No it doesn't. It cuts off before he does something.

"Refuse shows that the Galaxy failed to defeat the Reapers.

That's all you need to know." No, it is not. What matters is not what we see happen, because this isn't reality it's a DREAM. What does matter is Resolve, that's it. Not trying is worse than failure, and trying to do what is right is better than trying to do what isn't, that's what the resolve of Refuse is.

Edit: People say Shepard thinks it's reality, but he also doesn't know the future. He doesn't know what Refuse will do, so he doesn't avoid it just because it will kill everyone. He picks it because it's the right thing, assuming you make him pick it. Furthermore the reason what happens is irrelevant, is because how you get out of the attempt without getting indoctrinated is by sticking to your resolve. So even if your resolve was Synthesis already, you'd have to pick it to reject indoctrination.

Andromidius wrote:

Eryri wrote:Actually the brat doesn't say when they thought the plans were lost, just that "We thought the concept had been eradicated", so he might have been talking about the Prothean cycle after all. Bummer, I thought we'd found the smoking gun that proved he was lying. Ah well.

Its pretty much saying the same thing though. Why would they think its eradicated at all? If it didn't show up for several Cycles maybe they'd think this. But they KNOW the current Cycle knows about the Protheans, and that they have access to several of their beacons and archives. They even know about a lone Prothean survivor, several active Prothean VI's and that the Crucible is under construction via indoctrinated agent (and Cerberus knows about it too, its not a well-kept secret).

There's no fucking way a logical AI would assume its eradicated with ZERO PROOF to say it is and TONNES OF PROOF saying its still around.

NO FUCKING WAY! NONE!

/ahem

But yeah, some people aren't critical thinkers and so they soak up everything it says without thinking 'hmmm, is this person who's a self-confessed enemy of mine really telling me the truth while not having any reason whatsoever?'

I hadn't thought about it in that way. The Reapers probably knew that the Crucible plans still existed as soon as Cerberus did, and certainly as soon as the fake Rachni got there (assuming you failed to kill them).

I suppose the Bratalyst might have meant "we thought the plans had been eradicated, up until the point that Sovereign realised that some Protheans had survived long enough to sabotage the crucible." The word "thought" can describe an indefinite period in the past. So the sentence "I thought the Sun was a big flat disk held up by a string" is a true statement, even though I haven't thought that since I was about four or five years old and my Dad told me it was way out in space. Similarly the Reapers may have "thought" they had successfully eradicated every trace of the Prothean's existence, up until Sovereign tried to remotely open the Citadel.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here though. I'm of the opinion that the Crucible is indeed some sort of trap, either from the Reapers or the Leviathans. And if it isn't it should be! It would be the sort of epic twist the story desperately needs.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:You are making shit up to say Refuse is doing NOTHING AT ALL.

IronicParticle wrote:It cuts off before he does something.

I lol'd.

Why? In his own words, the Galaxy fails... right? You can't fail without trying first. Ergo, it cuts off and then skips ahead to after they tried and failed.... note, TRIED and failed. This makes it beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they did in fact do something during the moments that were skipped.

Never mind that Shepard actually says word for word that he is going to do it on his own terms. He looks sad, we don't technically know what he is sad about, but then what? What about after that? Do you think he just stood there on the Crucible till he starved to death?

Edit: Huh, you removed your comment it seems... oh well :P

Yeah, I removed it.

On second thought I felt it came off as if I was starting something. Sorry about that.

Andromidius wrote:

Restrider wrote:I know that I am conmitting the fallacy of mixing reality and what presumably is an indoctrination induced hallucination, but what if using the Crucible - since it is probably a trap - is wrong?

Mostly because Destroy is something you're told is bad. You're told repeatedly "oh, you could destroy us...but bad things will happen and its pointless so trust us don't do it!"

Refuse is...well. Refusing to do anything at all. Ignoring the problem, essentially.

I don't really see Destroy as using the Crucible at all, but blowing it up. You're shooting at it! That alone says you're not really 'using' it, and thus the 'beam' it fires makes even less sense. Who would design an object to only work if you fire a gun at it?

Also, whether the real Crucible is a trap or not, or even what it does, are totally irrelevant in the dream world. The Crucible is merely a convenient setting, because Shepard and the player know nothing about it. If you were suddenly on Rannoch, or something, that wouldn't work very well.

The (real) Crucible is almost certainly a trap, but that twist hasn't happened yet. The choices represent nothing but your goal, so they are all legitimate in the dream world. The kid is trying to convince you to pick Synthesis, and wanting to do that would mean you've become indoctrinated, but Synthesis is not a "trap", if that makes sense. There are no traps in IT, that wouldn't make sense.