The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

So then maybe we die multiple times, it is entirely possible. There also could be better reasons for uploading your mind, just think if the guy in my pic had been able to do that, or eintsein, etc. See I always inquire for some reason, I guess because to Shepard this is of course the first time so it doesn't feel right if he is ignoring anything he may learn about his enemies of whom don't normally chit chat with people.

I am still unconvinced indoctrination actually changes the person, so if Shepard gets such a vast intellect he'd likely break from it. "Ah yes, the old matter of"... In all honesty I feel pretty stupid, it seems like I am "slower" because I didn't exercise my brain due to being a drop out :l

As for on topic, well the only thing I NEED to discuss on this subject is on page 2 I believe... about Destroy seeming to not be Shepard's resolve and Refuse possibly being it.

Edit: Wow, TOP! I get this more often than I thought lol.

jojon2se wrote:There is a Renegade interrupt, where you target Jim, for one final blow and drop an action movie oneliner, and a Paragon interrupt, where you point out that the race that Jim was made out, has been dead ever since, calling him on his "preservation" schtick, at which point he falls silent and shuts down.
Unfortunately you can not get these if you take the "investigate" option on the conversation wheel, which I personally always do :7 - you must be quick to dismiss, alas.

If you take the investigate, the Reaper gets the final say. You 'lose' the conversation by trying to understand it. You 'win' the conversation by sticking to your own beliefs, hence the interrupts and final say in the paragon/renegade options.

At least, that's what I'm taking from it, and others have noticed this too.

First playthrough, I took the investigate and somehow didn't feel good about it at all. I felt like I lost an argument, and reloaded. Oh, how rewarding the interrupt felt.

Perhaps it's really like Vigil says: "Your survival depends on destroying them, not in understanding them."

@IronicParticle:

I have consistently figured that with your choice in avatar picture, you must be a fairly reasonable and curious fellow (or at least aspire to be ;)), regardless of whatever differences in opinion we may have. :)

If you only knew how often I have argued from a similar point, as you just did, regarding "changing" the "core" of a person, whenver somebody has suggested that a figure in a story has not had any character development, because it has, in effect, not been "bombastic" enough, for them.
I, too, usually, in these situations, argue that people do not really "change", as such -- it's just that the neural network that they have built over years - their low-level "self", may suddenly find itself with a revised set of data, possibly contradicting the old, to work with. They will come across "changed" on a higher, "more superficial" level, but it is still the same "firmware" that filters the new data, to produce the new output -- any changes to /that/ would require rerouting and bypassing of old methods, that may take a long time to develop - certainly longer than the "revolutions" you often see in characters from crowdpleasing fiction with lots of bells and whistles.

This is part of the problem I had with the tonal shift between ME and ME2: More subtle, realistic-ish "boring" characters were supplanted by comic book charicatures, complete with superhero costumes (and this reflected on the whole setting), where Jacob was the only "realistic" one - severely understated when viewed next to the extremes, and look where that got him in fandom land. *sigh*

Reaper indoctrination, however, is more than just indoctrination - it is augmented with technology that can change the chemical balance of your brain. They can analyse and predict how you will process any given set of data and custom tailor input for you, to produce a desired output, and insert this data through subtle suggestions, or fake sensory input, directly into your consciousness.
Over a long period time, even your "firmware" associations and databases will naturally adapt, for greater efficiency.
(EDIT: They can also go in and literally, physically, reconfigure you, but that's a destructive manipulation, that will remove the "you" entirely - a "you" that they may have use of, for a variety of reasons -- these are the husks and quickly deteriorating and conspictious "quick indoctrinees" - a very blunt tool)
Shepard is just a human, like everybody else, and just as susceptible.
I do like to hope, though, that there is always something left of the old self, which can be stimulated and brought out (EDIT: ...past any suppression), which would be what happens when you talk the Sarens and TIMs and Benezias of ME down - helping them see though the mist.

I have no higher education whatsoever, myself. I have just been around long enough to see some of the sort of headbutting intellectuals engage in. :P


@DoomsdayDevice:

I can't say it felt like a defeat, exactly.
"Jim's" dying words ring hollow, when he lies dying and you know, through example, that they are utter nonsense. He is unable to lead a convincing argument and choses to "win" by forfeiting further discussion (in the style of a kid who is stumped for further arguments and quickly proclaims "no you are!" and runs away), just like in the Paragon interrupt - you just don't steal his tounge, the way you do there.

If Bioware truly means to foist the "bully" approach to dealing with things, upon us, shunning concepts like understanding, analysis, informed response, and curiousity, I may be forced to relegate their game to the same bin as Modern Warfare type titles.

Hey! Modern Warfare 1 is an amazing game!

@Bleeding:

Sales figures certainly agree with you. :)
I spoke only in terms of "attitude" and did not consider any other qualities. :)

jojon2se wrote:@Bleeding:

Sales figures certainly agree with you. :)
I spoke only in terms of "attitude" and did not consider any other qualities. :)

I knew what you meant by your context, don't worry, and I do agree with your point.

jojon2se wrote:@IronicParticle:

I take it you refer to "souls" in the metaphorical sense, for the sum of the state and processes of one's nervous system (and if it's in the spiritual one, I'll just beg to bow out of this discussion, right now).

We don't know ... --snip--

There is actually a neat sub-theory that what happens to be Synthesis (e.g. the cutscene and the slides) is actually happening in a VR inside of a Reaper.
Synthesis would not only be indocrtinating Shepard, but seeing this mentioned virtual society inside of a Reaper.

Restrider wrote:

jojon2se wrote:@IronicParticle:

I take it you refer to "souls" in the metaphorical sense, for the sum of the state and processes of one's nervous system (and if it's in the spiritual one, I'll just beg to bow out of this discussion, right now).

We don't know ... --snip--

There is actually a neat sub-theory that what happens to be Synthesis (e.g. the cutscene and the slides) is actually happening in a VR inside of a Reaper.
Synthesis would not only be indocrtinating Shepard, but seeing this mentioned virtual society inside of a Reaper.

ah yes.... my Utopia theory...3 states of being created inside a reaper and the catalyst decides which state the 'souls' absobed in the reaper exist in.

I think it was Dystopia, Utopia & Euphoria if i remember my own ramblings correctly.

jojon2se wrote:I can't say it felt like a defeat, exactly.
"Jim's" dying words ring hollow, when he lies dying and you know, through example, that they are utter nonsense. He is unable to lead a convincing argument and choses to "win" by forfeiting further discussion (in the style of a kid who is stumped for further arguments and quickly proclaims "no you are!" and runs away), just like in the Paragon interrupt - you just don't steal his tounge, the way you do there.

If Bioware truly means to foist the "bully" approach to dealing with things, upon us, shunning concepts like understanding, analysis, informed response, and curiousity, I may be forced to relegate their game to the same bin as Modern Warfare type titles.

Nah. I think it only goes for directly dealing with Reapers. We all know trying to understand them leads to indoctrination.

Aha, almost The Matrix, carbon copied. :7

Hang on... I can't believe I never thought of this as a theme for Synthesis, before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2mmTDT6W7E&feature=player_detailpage

:P

@jonjon Thanks, possibly the best compliment I've ever received :D and of course we have differences in opinion, we are people, and people are too diverse to be anywhere near similar. Also peace would suck if it was so conforming, I'd rather people learn to be compatible with others despite their vast differences.

Well I guess that makes sense, I just kind of doubt that's how it would end is with freeing them, might make way more sense if like you suggested... it caused the Reapers to self destruct. In fact it'd be awesome if Shepard gave some kind of superior logic combined with an epic speech and thus cause the individuals of the "nation" to rebel.

Either way the ending should end up being awesome if there is a reveal :P

Eh I am the same, it's just I think sometimes I'm a bit "slower" to realize certain concepts. I don't know if it has to do with dropping out, but it didn't seem to be a problem when I was in school.

@Bleeding Everyone else tries to understand them usually by studying them and it usually consumes a bigger portion of their time than could ever be warranted. This is a Reaper Shepard took down already, plus Shepard has to wait to get things sorted out on Rannoch, etc anyways so it's not like Shepard would be gone already if he hadn't talked to it. It doesn't hurt that much to take the time to see.

Nor did I think their points would bring understanding, rather Shepard could possibly see their personality, possibly notice any tendencies, see their priorities, etc. Not to understand why they do the cycle per say, but to find any weaknesses or something.

The person who knows you the most is the most dangerous to you, which is why you are your worst enemy. This is why it's not smart to reveal anything to people who are certainly your enemies. However the Reapers seem to think that's irrelevant so Shepard can take the chance to become more of an adversary. In fact as Anderson said, Shepard knows them better than anyone else... he talks to them then blows them up, it's what he does... he is their Equal and this is why the concept of "just Human" doesn't ring in my mind.

JUST Human? Don't underestimate us.

@Topic Now everyone's off topic :P

I added a poll, to get this back on track!
But this does not mean that off-topic debates are not allowed. :D

Ok, I have not read through the thread and i'm sorry about it.

Here's what i think happens in refuse -

Remember - slow and patiend indoctrination creates agents.
when you force it or make it quick - you'll get a drooling animal, a mindless husk.

It is like opening a tap.
Or using a hydrolic press to compete in armwrestling.
You can set it for full strengh - but you'll snap opponents arm.

Refuse is shepard resisting, and Herbinger saying "FINE!" - and going full strengh - making shepard a vegetable and essentially turning him into a husk.

i dunno. there is a satisfaction in giving star brat the finger. refuse is very appealing at the moment - although that might change with DLC.


The speech shep gives makes me smile.

demersel wrote:Ok, I have not read through the thread and i'm sorry about it.

Here's what i think happens in refuse -

Remember - slow and patiend indoctrination creates agents.
when you force it or make it quick - you'll get a drooling animal, a mindless husk.

It is like opening a tap.
Or using a hydrolic press to compete in armwrestling.
You can set it for full strengh - but you'll snap opponents arm.

Refuse is shepard resisting, and Herbinger saying "FINE!" - and going full strengh - making shepard a vegetable and essentially turning him into a husk.

Yea, I'm torn between this and getting blasted to bits.

@demersel:

Possible, possible.

I've been thinking Harby may allow the waking Destroy-Shepard to slip away (EDIT#999: subtly waking Shep himself), believing he's got a foot in the door to your mind, and confident that from there, it is only a matter of patience, until you're fully his -- the old lad is in for a rough awakening... :P
(EDIT: Mind you; Shepard will still need help from friends, to pry away that foot that keeps the door ajar.)

The Refuse Shepard, however, while in no way in Limbo (as per some of the options in the poll), having really kicked Harby out; is still unconscious and vulnerable and will need friends to sweep in and distract Harbinger, before the big boy squashes Shepard - in body or mind. (EDIT: I decided "breaks free himself" (nested EDIT: "Better than Destroy") fits that viewpoint best, for my voting, although it is really a sort of hybrid between that and the Limbo-with-friends one. :7)

@Ironic:

Umm, I am pretty sure any "slow uptake", that you perceive, can be fully attributed to my confused, rambling, run-on sentence structures.
For what it's worth; I am just as inept at formulating things, in my native language. :P

jojon2se wrote:@demersel:

Possible, possible.

I've been thinking Harby may allow the waking Destroy-Shepard to slip away, believing he's got a foot in the door to your mind, and confident that from there, it is only a matter of patience, until you're fully his -- the old lad is in for a rough awakening... :P
(EDIT: Mind you; Shepard will still need help from friends, to pry that foot keeping the door ajar, out)

The Refuse Shepard, however, while in no way in Limbo (as per some of the options in the poll), having really kicked Harby out; is still unconscious and vulnerable and will need friends to sweep in and distract Harbinger, before the big boy squashes Shepard - in body or mind. (EDIT: I decided "breaks free himself" fits that viewpoint best, for my voting, although it is really a sort of hybrid between that and the Limbo-with-friends one. :7)

@Ironic:

Umm, I am pretty sure any "slow uptake", that you perceive, can be fully attributed to my confused, rambling, run-on sentence structures.
For what it's worth; I am just as inept at formulating things, in my native language. :P

It's something I noticed before meeting you :P

Anyways there is no real need to worry about Shepard's safety if the attempt begins at the crash before the beam run. Harbinger hasn't arrived yet :l

That assumes it started at the crash and that whatever caused the crash is not still a threat.

draconian139 wrote:That assumes it started at the crash and that whatever caused the crash is not still a threat.

You know everyone was convinced it was harbinger's beam before, yet before you got hit by it... so it was impossible almost. I mean seriously you die instantly on Rannoch if the Reaper hits you despite Shepard being in perfect condition with shields and everything >.>

Well the Normandy would at least likely be capable of coming in without much trouble and picking up Shepard. It's likely it was a trap which would require a bomb or something.

As it is right now, there is a lot of variety in how people think Refuse works in the light of IT.
Gladly, no one believes that you are indoctrinated!

IronicParticle wrote:

draconian139 wrote:That assumes it started at the crash and that whatever caused the crash is not still a threat.

You know everyone was convinced it was harbinger's beam before, yet before you got hit by it... so it was impossible almost. I mean seriously you die instantly on Rannoch if the Reaper hits you despite Shepard being in perfect condition with shields and everything >.>

Well the Normandy would at least likely be capable of coming in without much trouble and picking up Shepard. It's likely it was a trap which would require a bomb or something.

As someone pointed out Harbinger uses the middle beam which we've never seen utilized before. Perhaps it works differently or is nowhere near as hot. It could have easily been a bomb I suppose, though there's still numerous threats that could be around to ensure the trap worked. Heck, it could have been a Brute or our driver being drunk for all we know. I really think the outcome after it really depends on how much of a pessimist/optimist someone is since we really don't have any way of knowing exactly where it started.

dork wrote:i dunno. there is a satisfaction in giving star brat the finger. refuse is very appealing at the moment - although that might change with DLC.


The speech shep gives makes me smile.

That speech is very promising. It is a reason why I have not abandoned refuse completely, it is definitely my #2 ending. While the speech is epic and great, it is followed up by nothing. So I think if not IT (though unlikely) refuse could definitely give us something different (via extra war assets from a Special DLC).

401 Kill wrote:

dork wrote:i dunno. there is a satisfaction in giving star brat the finger. refuse is very appealing at the moment - although that might change with DLC.


The speech shep gives makes me smile.

That speech is very promising. It is a reason why I have not abandoned refuse completely, it is definitely my #2 ending. While the speech is epic and great, it is followed up by nothing. So I think if not IT (though unlikely) refuse could definitely give us something different (via extra war assets from a Special DLC).

What I would find bizarre, is that Bioware contradicted that they wouldn't make a new ending... for the sake of nothing? Seriously? Every time they lie, it's for something big. It seems likely Shepard's resolve isn't exactly destroy per-say. Destroying the relay in Arrival itself is a good example of how Shepard is being forced to react regardless of how he/she feels. You don't get any alternatives, you MUST Destroy the Relay because of the impending doom.

Yet at the end, we are unconscious laying in rubble. In a dream, time feels like it moved faster but this is because you are not Lucid. Any Lucid dreamer can tell you that time actually moves slower inside of a dream. The ending takes about half an hour in Shepard's mind, which would likely be only a couple of minutes in real life. Shepard has plenty of time to think on it, here in the depths of his/her subconscious. This is the first time Shepard has gotten all the time in the world to think about it, and yet there appears to be nobody representing Refuse.... why?

Every other choice has a representation, and there is only one other entity within this domain that is capable of being the representation of Refusal. There is Anderson, TIM, the Catalyst... and Shepard. Shepard is the 4th entity, the only one who could possibly be the representation for it. You cannot deny this, there is nobody else there. You could argue that Shepard doesn't represent Refuse, but you can't deny that there is nobody else there who could. I highly doubt the Keepers are it, though I still wonder what their purpose is inside of Shepard's mind.

Edit: The thing is, is that we have to think solely on what is Shepard's resolve. Indoctrination's goal is to change your resolve, so the best way out is of course to help Shepard stick to his/her resolve. I doubt the Player decides what Shepard's resolve is, because that would mean there is no indoctrination ending... because if it's up to the player, then Synthesis can be Shepard's resolve. That would ruin the genius behind the concept of IT... there is supposed to be the risk of getting indoctrinated >.>

draconian139 wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:

draconian139 wrote:*snip*

*snip*

As someone pointed out Harbinger uses the middle beam which we've never seen utilized before. Perhaps it works differently or is nowhere near as hot. It could have easily been a bomb I suppose, though there's still numerous threats that could be around to ensure the trap worked. Heck, it could have been a Brute or our driver being drunk for all we know. I really think the outcome after it really depends on how much of a pessimist/optimist someone is since we really don't have any way of knowing exactly where it started.

But then what truly differs between Destroy and Refuse? If Harbinger can kill you in Refuse, or if there is dangers present in Refuse... why aren't they there in Destroy? Sticking to your resolve should not effect the real world, if you get saved in Destroy you get saved in Refuse.

The only way you could make it so one is truly worse than the other, is if you made it so Shepard becomes a raving lunatic because in said ending he/she has only resisted indoc... not completely rejecting it.

My point is, is having Shepard in a physically risky situation should not depend on what happens in WOO HOO land. Destroy is just as risky as Refuse in that case, and EMS is the only true determining factor for that. Furthermore as I pointed out, Destroy is likely not Shepard's resolve even if Refuse isn't either. The best ending is the one where Shepard sticks to his/her resolve, and if that aint Destroy, then what is it? Because there is only 1 other option, and that's Refuse.

IronicParticle wrote:

draconian139 wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:

draconian139 wrote:*snip*

*snip*

As someone pointed out Harbinger uses the middle beam which we've never seen utilized before. Perhaps it works differently or is nowhere near as hot. It could have easily been a bomb I suppose, though there's still numerous threats that could be around to ensure the trap worked. Heck, it could have been a Brute or our driver being drunk for all we know. I really think the outcome after it really depends on how much of a pessimist/optimist someone is since we really don't have any way of knowing exactly where it started.

But then what truly differs between Destroy and Refuse? If Harbinger can kill you in Refuse, or if there is dangers present in Refuse... why aren't they there in Destroy? Sticking to your resolve should not effect the real world, if you get saved in Destroy you get saved in Refuse.

The only way you could make it so one is truly worse than the other, is if you made it so Shepard becomes a raving lunatic because in said ending he/she has only resisted indoc... not completely rejecting it.

My point is, is having Shepard in a physically risky situation should not depend on what happens in WOO HOO land. Destroy is just as risky as Refuse in that case, and EMS is the only true determining factor for that. Furthermore as I pointed out, Destroy is likely not Shepard's resolve even if Refuse isn't either. The best ending is the one where Shepard sticks to his/her resolve, and if that aint Destroy, then what is it? Because there is only 1 other option, and that's Refuse.

My main problem with Refuse is not Shepard's speech, it is what he/she does afterwards. He gives this epic speech and then does...nothing...he/she just stands around as the light goes out looking almost helpless or hopeless. No action to back up the speech.

Also I would be very pissed if Refuse turned out to be the only good option because that meant when we entered that chamber for the first time there was no way out, that it was a lose, lose, lose situation.