If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

BleedingUranium wrote:IT is not proven.

Proof: Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Try again, Proof DOES = Evidence... more specifically, it IS EVIDENCE THAT ESTABLISHES FACT.

So tell me Proof =/= Evidence. I dare you when I've got, ironically, proof of it. I just showed the very definition specifically says "Evidence or argument...." so go ahead and TRY, I DARE you. This very post of mine proves you wrong, because what did I do to prove my case? I supplied EVIDENCE TO ESTABLISH A FACT!

Just a thought: did anything on Illusive Man's base confirm that the thing was actually a proto-Reaper? I know Shepard and his/her squad assume so.

Maybe we have been looking at unshielded parts of Sovereign the whole time.

If IT is not proven then completely shit writing and storytelling is.

Humakt83 wrote:Just a thought: did anything on Illusive Man's base confirm that the thing was actually a proto-Reaper? I know Shepard and his/her squad assume so.

Maybe we have been looking at unshielded parts of Sovereign the whole time.

Thanks for bringing this up, because on the previous page a couple of people just inserted the claim that Cronos is real without refuting the fact that as Rif pointed out, it is impossible.

The problem with your idea, is it would mean the Reapers knew about humans before they existed which makes 0 sense. As for TIM building his own, HOW? He does not have any blueprints or remains, so HOW would he build something above his comprehension?

IronicParticle wrote:

Humakt83 wrote:Just a thought: did anything on Illusive Man's base confirm that the thing was actually a proto-Reaper? I know Shepard and his/her squad assume so.

Maybe we have been looking at unshielded parts of Sovereign the whole time.

Thanks for bringing this up, because on the previous page a couple of people just inserted the claim that Cronos is real without refuting the fact that as Rif pointed out, it is impossible.

The problem with your idea, is it would mean the Reapers knew about humans before they existed which makes 0 sense. As for TIM building his own, HOW? He does not have any blueprints or remains, so HOW would he build something above his comprehension?

Actually that one is easy. Cerberus seems to be turning into the knew Collectors (with ominous space station to match) so likely the Reapers could have granted them the blueprints for a new Reaper and set them to work.

Being so confident in their victory they start construction of a new Reaper before the cycle is even defeated, seems like standard Reaper overconfidence to me.

IronicParticle wrote:

BleedingUranium wrote:IT is not proven.

Proof: Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Try again, Proof DOES = Evidence... more specifically, it IS EVIDENCE THAT ESTABLISHES FACT.

So tell me Proof =/= Evidence. I dare you when I've got, ironically, proof of it. I just showed the very definition specifically says "Evidence or argument...." so go ahead and TRY, I DARE you. This very post of mine proves you wrong, because what did I do to prove my case? I supplied EVIDENCE TO ESTABLISH A FACT!

Sometimes the interpretation of that evidence is incorrect. and subsequently to conclusion drawn from that evidence is incorrect. Evidence isn't necessarily proof, especially when you're dealing with literary intent.

IronicParticle wrote:

Humakt83 wrote:Just a thought: did anything on Illusive Man's base confirm that the thing was actually a proto-Reaper? I know Shepard and his/her squad assume so.

Maybe we have been looking at unshielded parts of Sovereign the whole time.

Thanks for bringing this up, because on the previous page a couple of people just inserted the claim that Cronos is real without refuting the fact that as Rif pointed out, it is impossible.

The problem with your idea, is it would mean the Reapers knew about humans before they existed which makes 0 sense. As for TIM building his own, HOW? He does not have any blueprints or remains, so HOW would he build something above his comprehension?

What? I'm talking, of course, about the very same Sovereign we destroyed in Mass Effect 1. Sovereign's pieces were scattered and quickly ransacked. Who knows, what Cerberus got away with a midst all the chaos.

Humakt83 wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:

Humakt83 wrote:Just a thought: did anything on Illusive Man's base confirm that the thing was actually a proto-Reaper? I know Shepard and his/her squad assume so.

Maybe we have been looking at unshielded parts of Sovereign the whole time.

Thanks for bringing this up, because on the previous page a couple of people just inserted the claim that Cronos is real without refuting the fact that as Rif pointed out, it is impossible.

The problem with your idea, is it would mean the Reapers knew about humans before they existed which makes 0 sense. As for TIM building his own, HOW? He does not have any blueprints or remains, so HOW would he build something above his comprehension?

What? I'm talking, of course, about the very same Sovereign we destroyed in Mass Effect 1. Sovereign's pieces were scattered and quickly ransacked. Who knows, what Cerberus got away with a midst all the chaos.

We know they got at least some of Sovererign, as EDI was built with pieces of him.

Humakt83 wrote:
What? I'm talking, of course, about the very same Sovereign we destroyed in Mass Effect 1. Sovereign's pieces were scattered and quickly ransacked. Who knows, what Cerberus got away with a midst all the chaos.

But would why a Proto HUMAN Reaper, be a part of Sovereign who existed before Humans did?

spotlessvoid wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:

BleedingUranium wrote:IT is not proven.

Proof: Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Try again, Proof DOES = Evidence... more specifically, it IS EVIDENCE THAT ESTABLISHES FACT.

So tell me Proof =/= Evidence. I dare you when I've got, ironically, proof of it. I just showed the very definition specifically says "Evidence or argument...." so go ahead and TRY, I DARE you. This very post of mine proves you wrong, because what did I do to prove my case? I supplied EVIDENCE TO ESTABLISH A FACT!

Sometimes the interpretation of that evidence is incorrect. and subsequently to conclusion drawn from that evidence is incorrect. Evidence isn't necessarily proof, especially when you're dealing with literary intent.

Evidence isn't necessarily proof, but Proof IS necessarily evidence... specifically evidence that establishes a fact. As I explained in the main topic, video footage of you murdering someone... would be undeniable proof you murdered someone. There is no possible way a person could misinterpret SEEING you murdering someone, including through video.

The IT has evidence like that, evidence as compelling as that. For example Shepard is suffering from all the symptoms of indoctrination... some symptoms of which are impossible to be caused by anything else. This proves that Shepard is undergoing indoctrination. Then there is the impossibility of the decision chamber and Shepard surviving the Destroy explosion. As well the Catalyst's form is built from Shepard's memories. Which proves the ending is not 100% literal. This is enough to prove basic indoctrination, because all basic indoctrination says is 2 things. Shepard is being indoctrinated, and the "ending" is not real. This is proven, there is no misinterpretation possible for these evidences.

IronicParticle wrote:

Humakt83 wrote:
What? I'm talking, of course, about the very same Sovereign we destroyed in Mass Effect 1. Sovereign's pieces were scattered and quickly ransacked. Who knows, what Cerberus got away with a midst all the chaos.

But would why a Proto HUMAN Reaper, be a part of Sovereign who existed before Humans did?

That's what he's saying. We don't KNOw it's the Human Proto-Reaper. Shepard and crew just assume it is. While it's familiar in shape, maybe the Nazara looked a lot like humans.

Selim Bradley wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:

Humakt83 wrote:
What? I'm talking, of course, about the very same Sovereign we destroyed in Mass Effect 1. Sovereign's pieces were scattered and quickly ransacked. Who knows, what Cerberus got away with a midst all the chaos.

But would why a Proto HUMAN Reaper, be a part of Sovereign who existed before Humans did?

That's what he's saying. We don't KNOw it's the Human Proto-Reaper. Shepard and crew just assume it is. While it's familiar in shape, maybe the Nazara looked a lot like humans.

In ME2 it is a proto-human Reaper because it's made from Humans, meaning it's based on humans. So the Nazara would have to be identical.

IronicParticle wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:

Humakt83 wrote:
What? I'm talking, of course, about the very same Sovereign we destroyed in Mass Effect 1. Sovereign's pieces were scattered and quickly ransacked. Who knows, what Cerberus got away with a midst all the chaos.

But would why a Proto HUMAN Reaper, be a part of Sovereign who existed before Humans did?

That's what he's saying. We don't KNOw it's the Human Proto-Reaper. Shepard and crew just assume it is. While it's familiar in shape, maybe the Nazara looked a lot like humans.

In ME2 it is a proto-human Reaper because it's made from Humans, meaning it's based on humans. So the Nazara would have to be identical.

No, just have a similar appearance to humans. We have two other races in our cycle alone who do that: asari and quarians.

Selim Bradley wrote:No, just have a similar appearance to humans. We have two other races in our cycle alone who do that: asari and quarians.

But the whole point to Bioware using the excuse that the Race's form is covered by the shell, is to keep the idea that the Reapers are unique in tact.

Yet according to you, the Human's reaper and the Nazara's reapers, would not be unique. They'd be identical since the Human proto-Reaper is identical to the one in the Cerberus base.

Where do the Reapers get their shell from anyway?

The Leviathan said they are created in the Leviathans' image.

Drewton wrote:Where do the Reapers get their shell from anyway?

The Leviathan said they are created in the Leviathans' image.

They are probably just built, like any other spaceship hull.

IronicParticle wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:No, just have a similar appearance to humans. We have two other races in our cycle alone who do that: asari and quarians.

But the whole point to Bioware using the excuse that the Race's form is covered by the shell, is to keep the idea that the Reapers are unique in tact.

Yet according to you, the Human's reaper and the Nazara's reapers, would not be unique. They'd be identical since the Human proto-Reaper is identical to the one in the Cerberus base.

Hey, I'm just throwing ideas out. Humakt suggested it may be pieces of Sovereign's core, you said it looked like the Human Proto-Reaperso, so I was saying then perhaps the Nazara look like humans which is highly possible.

Selim Bradley wrote:Hey, I'm just throwing ideas out. Humakt suggested it may be pieces of Sovereign's core, you said it looked like the Human Proto-Reaperso, so I was saying then perhaps the Nazara look like humans which is highly possible.

It's easily possible Nazara's race is humanoid, yes. But if the Reapers "preserve" the Race's image then they'd make something unique about it.

Selim Bradley wrote:

Drewton wrote:Where do the Reapers get their shell from anyway?

The Leviathan said they are created in the Leviathans' image.

They are probably just built, like any other spaceship hull.

Well actually, it's likely that the shell "grows", at least in the sense that they use more humans to make it probably.

But I think he is asking where they get the idea for the shells from. Which actually, they DO seem to be in the image of Leviathans more so than they did at the end of ME2. At the end of ME2 there would have been too much variety to say it was based on the Leviathans, probably one of the reasons they changed them to look the same.

Shell grows? lolwut

IronicParticle wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

Drewton wrote:Where do the Reapers get their shell from anyway?

The Leviathan said they are created in the Leviathans' image.

They are probably just built, like any other spaceship hull.

Well actually, it's likely that the shell "grows", at least in the sense that they use more humans to make it probably.

But I think he is asking where they get the idea for the shells from. Which actually, they DO seem to be in the image of Leviathans more so than they did at the end of ME2. At the end of ME2 there would have been too much variety to say it was based on the Leviathans, probably one of the reasons they changed them to look the same.

Why would they use organics to make the shell?

I think the Leviathan writers might have forgotten what was already established.

""Each harvest ends with a new Reaper. Perfect in its design. Each created in Harbinger's image. Our image.""

But, as we've seen and know, each Reaper is created in its own organic species image. The main reason they probably made all the Reapers look the same was budget reasons or whatever. Even though making simple animation-less variations wouldn't have been too hard.

to mature =/= to grow

IronicParticle wrote:Well actually, it's likely that the shell "grows", at least in the sense that they use more humans to make it probably.

But I think he is asking where they get the idea for the shells from. Which actually, they DO seem to be in the image of Leviathans more so than they did at the end of ME2. At the end of ME2 there would have been too much variety to say it was based on the Leviathans, probably one of the reasons they changed them to look the same.

Hmm..interesting concept. Reminds me of the Invulnerability part of my Comparison Project.

Selim Bradley wrote:
E) Invulnerability

"Nope, sorry. That little hand-sword of yours is kinda neat, but it can't even scratch my Ultimate Shield." - Greed

"Those fighters aren't even making a dent." - James Vega

In Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, the third oldest Homunculus, named Greed, was blessed with a gift from Father known as the Ultimate Shield. This power grants him the ability to rearrange the structure of all the carbon atoms in his body. This allows him to make his body as hard as diamond, and thus impossible to damage in combat.

In Mass Effect, the Reapers are built with an almost impenetrable defense system. Their shielding can withstand the firepower of an entire fleet, and in case the enemy has weapons designed to disable shielding, they have a defense system built to repel and destroy said weapons.

So perhaps the Reaper shell follows a similar concept, takingh the carbon in the organic material and rearranging their structure to create a dense, hard shell.

Drewton wrote:
Why would they use organics to make the shell?

I think the Leviathan writers might have forgotten what was already established.

""Each harvest ends with a new Reaper. Perfect in its design. Each created in Harbinger's image. Our image.""

But, as we've seen and know, each Reaper is created in its own organic species image. The main reason they probably made all the Reapers look the same was budget reasons or whatever. Even though making simple animation-less variations wouldn't have been too hard.

I think Bioware planned it since they've been writing ME3. They changed them to all look the same on the outside, had they not done this they couldn't say they were based on Leviathans. They had been working on Leviathan very early, in fact the EC delayed it's release I'm sure. We are pretty much agreeing, except I am saying they didn't forget and ME3 itself also changes what was already established.

Why would they use organics? Well according to EDI, they had not melted that many humans yet and that they would probably need millions to billions more. That alone tells me they were going to build the shell over it, the part that looks Human would've been completed well before they got to millions. They had been nearly done with the Human part of the Reaper and they were going to melt millions more? For what?

The Shell looks like Leviathans, so they are still made in the Leviathan's image. The Leviathan shell covers the Species' image. It's like the Reapers build themselves in a way that makes the statement, that the Leviathans own your species because they are the Apex.

Gummy wrote:to mature =/= to grow

Your point? I don't mean like it will grow on it's own, I mean they will keep pumping human goo into it and use that goo to continue building it. When you build a car, it "grows" from a single part to a full blown vehicle. They make the shell out of humans, likely rearranging it with Nanotechnology.

If you think about the scale of a Reaper, it'd be vastly more efficient to use Nanotechnology rearrange everything, etc. And considering the Reapers are Type Omega-Minus because they can manipulate space and time, they can manipulate things also below Omega-Minus:

Type I-minus is capable of manipulating objects over the scale of themselves: building structures, mining, joining and breaking solids; Type II-minus is capable of manipulating genes and altering the development of living things, transplanting or replacing parts of themselves, reading and engineering their genetic code; Type III-minus is capable of manipulating molecules and molecular bonds, creating new materials; Type IV-minus is capable of manipulating individual atoms, creating nanotechnologies on the atomic scale and creating complex forms of artificial life; Type V-minus is capable of manipulating the atomic nucleus and engineering the nucleons that compose it; Type VI-minus is capable of manipulating the most elementary particles of matter (quarks and leptons) to create organized complexity among populations of elementary particles; culminating in. Type Omega-minus is capable of manipulating the basic structure of space and time.[22] According to this scale, human civilization is between III- and IV-minus.

So manipulating atoms and the like? They can do so much more.

Selim Bradley wrote:
Hmm..interesting concept. Reminds me of the Invulnerability part of my Comparison Project.

Selim Bradley wrote:
E) Invulnerability

"Nope, sorry. That little hand-sword of yours is kinda neat, but it can't even scratch my Ultimate Shield." - Greed

"Those fighters aren't even making a dent." - James Vega

In Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, the third oldest Homunculus, named Greed, was blessed with a gift from Father known as the Ultimate Shield. This power grants him the ability to rearrange the structure of all the carbon atoms in his body. This allows him to make his body as hard as diamond, and thus impossible to damage in combat.

In Mass Effect, the Reapers are built with an almost impenetrable defense system. Their shielding can withstand the firepower of an entire fleet, and in case the enemy has weapons designed to disable shielding, they have a defense system built to repel and destroy said weapons.

So perhaps the Reaper shell follows a similar concept, takingh the carbon in the organic material and rearranging their structure to create a dense, hard shell.

Huh, very nice point. If you add what I said about the shell being in the Leviathans' image, it's like the outer shell, or outer image is an invincible guardian whom protects and reigns over the inner image.

It's literally like the Reapers are built, to make the statement that even the most worthy species is below the Apex race.