If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

BleedingUranium wrote:Hence the cold temperature. Though I think the ME team went with the technically incorrect, but simple and believable idea that when you die, the brain just stops and remains as is. No breakdown, at least, until decomposition starts, but that takes a while.

For me, that's not believable at all. It takes just minutes for the brain to decompose. You can't simply freeze a brain.

Selim Bradley wrote:Yeah, but this one actually has merit. They needed a way to get Shepard to not be with the Aliance, and the only way to do that was death since if Shepard was just captured the Alliance would search for them.

There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

So can any plot holes and inconsistencies in the end be argued against in a similar way, that it's all video game logic? And that therefore the inconsistencies don't matter and it's just bad writing?

Drewton wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:Yeah, but this one actually has merit. They needed a way to get Shepard to not be with the Aliance, and the only way to do that was death since if Shepard was just captured the Alliance would search for them.

There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

So can any plot holes and inconsistencies in the end be argued against in a similar way, that it's all video game logic?

Not really. All that, or at least all the important parts, have ingame reasons for it.

Drewton wrote:

BleedingUranium wrote:Hence the cold temperature. Though I think the ME team went with the technically incorrect, but simple and believable idea that when you die, the brain just stops and remains as is. No breakdown, at least, until decomposition starts, but that takes a while.

For me, that's not believable at all. It takes just minutes for the brain to decompose. You can't simply freeze a brain.

I mean they wrote it under the assumption (by mistake or for the sake of story) that the brain decomposes at the same rate as the rest of the body, a few days or so. And slower because it's really cold.

Selim Bradley wrote:There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

Well, that's because they can't take the Citadel. They lack the surprise now, it would just close before they could get in. That's why they had to use Cerberus to do it.

BleedingUranium wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

Well, that's because they can't take the Citadel. They lack the surprise now, it would just close before they could get in. That's why they had to use Cerberus to do it.

That's what I'm saying. They lost the element of suprise by attacking the Batarian Hegemony and the Systems Alliance. They could've sailed silently towards the Citadel and launched a suprise attack. Then they'd lock it down, and everyone is trapped in their systems until it's their turn.

Selim Bradley wrote:

BleedingUranium wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

Well, that's because they can't take the Citadel. They lack the surprise now, it would just close before they could get in. That's why they had to use Cerberus to do it.

That's what I'm saying. They lost the element of suprise by attacking the Batarian Hegemony and the Systems Alliance. They could've sailed silently towards the Citadel and launched a suprise attack. Then they'd lock it down, and everyone is trapped in their systems until it's their turn.

Yes, they could've done that, I assumed you meant during the war. That's a pretty obvious "there wouldn't be a story" one.

Re: Shepard's brain surviving.

Two words. Reaper tech. These are a race of hyperadvanced machines that have been studying the way organic brains work for a billion years (or more). They've such a mastery over brain manipulation that simply being around their toys can make you their willing slave. The notion that their technology could extract data from dead brain cells and transfer them into new ones is not far fetched. In all honesty, it's much less far fetched than indoctrination.

We're going to eventually hear that Reaper tech was used to resurrect Shepard. I guarantee it. You know why? Because the writers actively called attention to the difficulty of the task on one of those terminals. If they didn't have more light to shine on the dark mystery down the road, then they never would've drawn attention to it. A bad writer can write bad plots, but he also has to be a certifiable moron to actively draw attention to the most nonsensical part of his story. There are few things I'm 100% certain about with what we'll later learn about Mass Effect's story. This is one of them. They'd never draw attention to it if they didn't have more planned, and the only thing they could add to it would be Reaper tech. Hence Miranda complaining about all the black boxes on Project Lazarus. Ask yourself what kind of tech besides Reaper tech that TIM would black box to hide from Miranda. I've yet to hear any other satisfactory answer to that question.

CSSteele wrote:However, we have to look at the fact that the books were written by Drew, and he left the ME team, so it's quite possible they threw out his ideas for it and went with their own. I know it's meta and doesn't fit entirely, but ... well... it's still possible.

Doubtful. The rest of Karpyshyn's works was still there. Grissom Academy, Kahlee Sanders (and her relationship to Anderson), Grayson... they killed off a lot of his characters in that godawful Deception "book" but they didn't just handwave their existence.

Selim Bradley wrote: Yeah, but this one actually has merit. They needed a way to get Shepard to not be with the Aliance, and the only way to do that was death since if Shepard was just captured the Alliance would search for them.

There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

Supposedly there was a mission that would explain why the Reapers couldn't shut down the relay system but it got cut because they didn't have the time for it. The short answer is probably simply that the Protheans screwed up the Citadel's workings too badly for the Reapers to be able to fix them quickly and efficiently.

Selim Bradley wrote:

BleedingUranium wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

Well, that's because they can't take the Citadel. They lack the surprise now, it would just close before they could get in. That's why they had to use Cerberus to do it.

That's what I'm saying. They lost the element of suprise by attacking the Batarian Hegemony and the Systems Alliance. They could've sailed silently towards the Citadel and launched a suprise attack. Then they'd lock it down, and everyone is trapped in their systems until it's their turn.

Actually the Serpent Nebula would prevent or at least hinder that kind of approach. According to the codex, beyond the relatively clear area around the Citadel the Serpent Nebula has frequent powerful electrical discharges which ignore Kinetic barriers and can as such severely damage a ship caught in it. At high speeds the thick clouds of microscopic particles the nebula consists of can also overwhelm the kinetic barriers of some ships (though likely not the Reapers).

And to be honest even if the Reapers moved through the nebula they would most likely still be spotted in time to close the Citadel. After all if coming through one of the Relays surrounding the Citadel is enough warning, and the Relays are in the Nebula's clear areas, then approaching from a position beyond the Relays would most likely get you spotted before you even got as close as a Relay merely leaving more time to close the Citadel.

Selim Bradley wrote:

BleedingUranium wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

Andromidius wrote:Other then Shepard punching through a sword with his/her fist.

...yeah.

Forearm, not fist.

Wearing armour as well. And the sword would likely be far more brittle when hit sideways like that. I never thought that was odd.

Well, it is a katana so the human body should not be able to generate enough force to break it. I guess you could say Shepard's Lazarus implants made them strong enough to do it, though.

Well Lazarus certainly made Shepard stronger and more durable than any normal human considering he can use weapons which should be beyond a Human in ME2 as well as play punch out (and be winning) against a Yahg. Not even mentioning headbutting a Krogan with no adverse effects.

Selim Bradley wrote:

Drewton wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:Yeah, but this one actually has merit. They needed a way to get Shepard to not be with the Aliance, and the only way to do that was death since if Shepard was just captured the Alliance would search for them.

There are some things in the game that are just "video game logic". An example being the Reaprs ignoring the Citadel to shut down all relays. There's no logical reason for that except that it wouldn't be much of a game if they were shut down.

So can any plot holes and inconsistencies in the end be argued against in a similar way, that it's all video game logic?

Not really. All that, or at least all the important parts, have ingame reasons for it.

But the Reapers not taking the citadel IS IMPORTANT Selim. That's what you are not getting, it's a plot hole so huge it completely destroys the story of ME3.

Besides, it's not just that they didn't take the citadel. It's that they waited for the Crucible to be finished, which they did in fact do because they knew about it since TIM knew about it.

Rifneno wrote:Re: Shepard's brain surviving.

Two words. Reaper tech. These are a race of hyperadvanced machines that have been studying the way organic brains work for a billion years (or more). They've such a mastery over brain manipulation that simply being around their toys can make you their willing slave. The notion that their technology could extract data from dead brain cells and transfer them into new ones is not far fetched. In all honesty, it's much less far fetched than indoctrination.

We're going to eventually hear that Reaper tech was used to resurrect Shepard. I guarantee it. You know why? Because the writers actively called attention to the difficulty of the task on one of those terminals. If they didn't have more light to shine on the dark mystery down the road, then they never would've drawn attention to it. A bad writer can write bad plots, but he also has to be a certifiable moron to actively draw attention to the most nonsensical part of his story. There are few things I'm 100% certain about with what we'll later learn about Mass Effect's story. This is one of them. They'd never draw attention to it if they didn't have more planned, and the only thing they could add to it would be Reaper tech. Hence Miranda complaining about all the black boxes on Project Lazarus. Ask yourself what kind of tech besides Reaper tech that TIM would black box to hide from Miranda. I've yet to hear any other satisfactory answer to that question.

Aside from Reaper tech, why do people keep acting like Shepard inevitably suffocated? Ever heard of "Suspended Animation"? Scientists have found that all earth life has a suspended animation state they can enter, and it can actually be triggered intentionally by taking away the right amount of components in Oxygen. Normally that'd be lethal, but they found that if they purposely invoked death and then went further with it, the life form ends up in a limbo between dead and alive.

Their metabolism is DRASTICALLY slowed, so a Human for example could go months or years in this state and they wouldn't need to eat or drink, they also would not age either. Why is this so? Because every cell in your body, suspends, hence the name. Every cell in your body, and every neuron even, "freezes". If every cell in your body was a movie, it's like you pressed pause on every cell and neuron, etc.

Point is, if Shepard entered a state of suspended animation, he would not suffocate and his brain would not die from a lack of oxygen.

IronicParticle wrote:
Aside from Reaper tech, why do people keep acting like Shepard inevitably suffocated? Ever heard of "Suspended Animation"? Scientists have found that all earth life has a suspended animation state they can enter, and it can actually be triggered intentionally by taking away the right amount of components in Oxygen. Normally that'd be lethal, but they found that if they purposely invoked death and then went further with it, the life form ends up in a limbo between dead and alive.

Their metabolism is DRASTICALLY slowed, so a Human for example could go months or years in this state and they wouldn't need to eat or drink, they also would not age either. Why is this so? Because every cell in your body, suspends, hence the name. Every cell in your body, and every neuron even, "freezes". If every cell in your body was a movie, it's like you pressed pause on every cell and neuron, etc.

Point is, if Shepard entered a state of suspended animation, he would not suffocate and his brain would not die from a lack of oxygen.

Didn't Shepard also fall to a planet's surface too?

IronicParticle wrote:

Rifneno wrote:Re: Shepard's brain surviving.

Two words. Reaper tech. These are a race of hyperadvanced machines that have been studying the way organic brains work for a billion years (or more). They've such a mastery over brain manipulation that simply being around their toys can make you their willing slave. The notion that their technology could extract data from dead brain cells and transfer them into new ones is not far fetched. In all honesty, it's much less far fetched than indoctrination.

We're going to eventually hear that Reaper tech was used to resurrect Shepard. I guarantee it. You know why? Because the writers actively called attention to the difficulty of the task on one of those terminals. If they didn't have more light to shine on the dark mystery down the road, then they never would've drawn attention to it. A bad writer can write bad plots, but he also has to be a certifiable moron to actively draw attention to the most nonsensical part of his story. There are few things I'm 100% certain about with what we'll later learn about Mass Effect's story. This is one of them. They'd never draw attention to it if they didn't have more planned, and the only thing they could add to it would be Reaper tech. Hence Miranda complaining about all the black boxes on Project Lazarus. Ask yourself what kind of tech besides Reaper tech that TIM would black box to hide from Miranda. I've yet to hear any other satisfactory answer to that question.

Aside from Reaper tech, why do people keep acting like Shepard inevitably suffocated? Ever heard of "Suspended Animation"? Scientists have found that all earth life has a suspended animation state they can enter, and it can actually be triggered intentionally by taking away the right amount of components in Oxygen. Normally that'd be lethal, but they found that if they purposely invoked death and then went further with it, the life form ends up in a limbo between dead and alive.

Their metabolism is DRASTICALLY slowed, so a Human for example could go months or years in this state and they wouldn't need to eat or drink, they also would not age either. Why is this so? Because every cell in your body, suspends, hence the name. Every cell in your body, and every neuron even, "freezes". If every cell in your body was a movie, it's like you pressed pause on every cell and neuron, etc.

Point is, if Shepard entered a state of suspended animation, he would not suffocate and his brain would not die from a lack of oxygen.

Yes, it is, but not by that much, definitely not enough to make your brain survive for months without any oxygen, and even if it was once the body temperature increased even slightly from re-entry he wouldn't be in suspended animation any more. You say there wasn't enough air for the temperature to increase at all? Then he's a Shepard-pancake, because terminal velocity would be INSANELY high.

But this is really off-topic, and we need to get back on subject. :)

Rifneno wrote:
Supposedly there was a mission that would explain why the Reapers couldn't shut down the relay system but it got cut because they didn't have the time for it. The short answer is probably simply that the Protheans screwed up the Citadel's workings too badly for the Reapers to be able to fix them quickly and efficiently.

I have an idea as to why the Reapers didn't simply seize the Citadel and shut down the relay network. They wish to allow Shepard to be able to travel and gather his fleet and Crucible building materials. They've likely predicted that Shepard will seek out an alliance among all races to attack the reapers as one unified fleet, the best and possibly only hope the galaxy has of resisting the reapers. With Shepard and the fleet gathered in one system, all the reapers have to do is break Shepard, and the galaxy's best shot at resistance falls with him. In this way the galaxy's only hope can be dashed completely in one decisive battle.

GethJuggernautMKII wrote:

Rifneno wrote:
Supposedly there was a mission that would explain why the Reapers couldn't shut down the relay system but it got cut because they didn't have the time for it. The short answer is probably simply that the Protheans screwed up the Citadel's workings too badly for the Reapers to be able to fix them quickly and efficiently.

I have an idea as to why the Reapers didn't simply seize the Citadel and shut down the relay network. They wish to allow Shepard to be able to travel and gather his fleet and Crucible building materials. They've likely predicted that Shepard will seek out an alliance among all races to attack the reapers as one unified fleet, the best and possibly only hope the galaxy has of resisting the reapers. With Shepard and the fleet gathered in one system, all the reapers have to do is break Shepard, and the galaxy's best shot at resistance falls with him. In this way the galaxy's only hope can be dashed completely in one decisive battle.

Very likely, on top of the fact that they couldn't take it anyway. I think this is what they came up with when they realized that.

BleedingUranium wrote:

GethJuggernautMKII wrote:

Rifneno wrote:
Supposedly there was a mission that would explain why the Reapers couldn't shut down the relay system but it got cut because they didn't have the time for it. The short answer is probably simply that the Protheans screwed up the Citadel's workings too badly for the Reapers to be able to fix them quickly and efficiently.

I have an idea as to why the Reapers didn't simply seize the Citadel and shut down the relay network. They wish to allow Shepard to be able to travel and gather his fleet and Crucible building materials. They've likely predicted that Shepard will seek out an alliance among all races to attack the reapers as one unified fleet, the best and possibly only hope the galaxy has of resisting the reapers. With Shepard and the fleet gathered in one system, all the reapers have to do is break Shepard, and the galaxy's best shot at resistance falls with him. In this way the galaxy's only hope can be dashed completely in one decisive battle.

Very likely, on top of the fact that they couldn't take it anyway. I think this is what they came up with when they realized that.

Problem: Nothing changed, yet they did it later when they knew the crucible was finally ready.

IronicParticle wrote:Problem: Nothing changed, yet they did it later when they knew the crucible was finally ready.

You mean once the superweapon was completed and would be able to wipe the Reapers out once it had that final component was ready? Sure, no reason for the Reapers to keep that last component away from the rest of the weapon.

Lokanaiya wrote:
Yes, it is, but not by that much, definitely not enough to make your brain survive for months without any oxygen, and even if it was once the body temperature increased even slightly from re-entry he wouldn't be in suspended animation any more. You say there wasn't enough air for the temperature to increase at all? Then he's a Shepard-pancake, because terminal velocity would be INSANELY high.

But this is really off-topic, and we need to get back on subject. :)

What are you talking about? I didn't mean freeze temperature wise, as I said it's like "pausing" every cell. They don't literally freeze, they just "stop". It has nothing to do with temperature, so warming up would not get you moving again. Shepard was mostly a pancake, but you guys seem to miss the part where his helmet kept the brain in tact.

Anyways, we already saw with our eyes what Lazarus does. We saw dead blood vessels, dead muscle tissue, dead organs, etc come back to life. I'm sure laws of physics defying reaper tech can easily handle dead brain cells too. Hence why I said, not ONLY Reaper tech.

Selim Bradley wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:Problem: Nothing changed, yet they did it later when they knew the crucible was finally ready.

You mean once the superweapon was completed and would be able to wipe the Reapers out once it had that final component was ready? Sure, no reason for the Reapers to keep that last component away from the rest of the weapon.

They didn't keep it away. Of course we already had this discussion and your oh so compelling proof that they are TRYING to stop their own destruction was pathetic, because 2 destroyers out of 200 Capitals is not trying. That's playing pretend.

IronicParticle wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:Problem: Nothing changed, yet they did it later when they knew the crucible was finally ready.

You mean once the superweapon was completed and would be able to wipe the Reapers out once it had that final component was ready? Sure, no reason for the Reapers to keep that last component away from the rest of the weapon.

They didn't keep it away. Of course we already had this discussion and your oh so compelling proof that they are TRYING to stop their own destruction was pathetic, because 2 destroyers out of 200 Capitals is not trying. That's playing pretend.

And all your evidence was personal postulations with no in-game evidence besides one line from EDI to support, I remember.

Selim Bradley wrote:

IronicParticle wrote:Problem: Nothing changed, yet they did it later when they knew the crucible was finally ready.

You mean once the superweapon was completed and would be able to wipe the Reapers out once it had that final component was ready? Sure, no reason for the Reapers to keep that last component away from the rest of the weapon.

There's a superweapon that can destroy the Reapers? Awesome, we can finally stop wasting time with the Trapcible.

It was obvious since ME1 that a deus ex machina would have to be used, and it's obvious that we somehow would succeed building one. If you cannot accept that premise you should have stopped playing right then and there.
Also Reapers are about cold efficiency and calculations. If they calculate x destroyers and y capitals are enough they only use as much.

Selim Bradley wrote:And all your evidence was personal postulations with no in-game evidence besides one line from EDI to support, I remember.

Which was even a misquote. EDI says the Reaper can use anything. EDI never says they do, and again as just said the reason for that is their cold efficiency. They don't fear defeat. It is not logical for them that one like Shepard would succeed. They cannot just stop being calculating and start having irrational fear of loosing.

Gummy wrote:It was obvious since ME1 that a deus ex machina would have to be used, and it's obvious that we somehow would succeed building one. If you cannot accept that premise you should have stopped playing right then and there.
Also Reapers are about cold efficiency and calculations. If they calculate x destroyers and y capitals are enough they only use as much.

So what interpretation do you support? Literal/Reductionist? IT?

GethJuggernautMKII wrote:

Gummy wrote:It was obvious since ME1 that a deus ex machina would have to be used, and it's obvious that we somehow would succeed building one. If you cannot accept that premise you should have stopped playing right then and there.
Also Reapers are about cold efficiency and calculations. If they calculate x destroyers and y capitals are enough they only use as much.

So what interpretation do you support? Literal/Reductionist? IT?

The view that the Crucible is a legitimate weapon is not bound to a single interpretation. In the literalist viewpoint, it does exactly what it shows it to do. In the IT viewpoint, the Intelligence makes you think it does what it is shown to do while in reality keeping you from actually using it.

Gummy wrote:It was obvious since ME1 that a deus ex machina would have to be used, and it's obvious that we somehow would succeed building one. If you cannot accept that premise you should have stopped playing right then and there..

You've been tons of laughs ever since you got your panties in a twist back in that SimCity thread. I can't believe you've never been called out before telling such obvious bull. Anyway, most people actually expected an Independence Day type ending. But then, you're so clueless you probably think that was a a Deus Ex Machina too.

Gummy wrote:It was obvious since ME1 that a deus ex machina would have to be used, and it's obvious that we somehow would succeed building one.

So why was the focus on uniting the galaxy to fight the Reapers?