(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Just to illustrate my point.

http://fathomingthestars.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/speed-of-light-in-atmo/

vlad78 wrote:Just to illustrate my point.

http://fathomingthestars.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/speed-of-light-in-atmo/

"Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one, to one-point-three percent of lightspeed."

The problem with your example lies in that quote from ME2. A Dreadnought, the most powerful ship class the Cycle can produce cannot reach anywhere near 90% of the speed of light on its main projectile. The Quarians do not even have a single Dreadnought in their fleet, the best they have done is jury rig their live ships to be comparable in size, but i doubt they added Mass Accelerators running the length of the ship.

Also the reason FTL weapons are not in use is because of a lock in FTL technology shutting it down if it is aimed at a solid target. This is a fail safe by the Reapers to prevent FTL weaponry being used against them. It can be circumvented as some Batarian terrorists did and replecating that process might be key to defeating the Reapers.

Okay to edit with new information. The Thanix gun on the Normandy operates at fractions of the speed of light in terms of speed. I have not found any real speed for more standard weaponry, but I noticed that broadside guns become useful at medium range in space engagements. The guns used by the Quarian fleet are facing sideways compared to the ship, so I would guess this is what we are talking about. Medium range for a space battle is when the two fleets start to intermingle, so basically any range beyond that is ample time for an opposing ship to avoid the broadside guns. Short range for the record is less than 10 Km.

So we are most likely dealing with weaponry not even near the speed of light firing upon the Destroyer.

Iirc, the lore does state several times ships don't fire when facing their own planet. Doesn't really matter then what the exact speed of projectiles is and so forth. Risking a missed shot equals risking your homeworld, apparently.

Although I don't know for which type of ship this is true.

Or what the exact damage would be. Maybe in the context of an all-or-nothing war against Reapers a few leveled buildings or cities is excusable.

Or how reliable targeting technology is. I.e., if one can fire without risk when waiting for authorization or something.

That's the problem with lore. It's a simplified reality so there are too many variables lacking to be 100% sure of details like these.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I know there are people here who are more knowledgable on ME lore specifics. Before I get sucked into another argument I have no interest in.

With ME, I'm all for unconventional ideas, but I've never thought all that much of these supposed "lore breaks". Simply because it's too hard telling apart intentional from accidental errors.

smash016 wrote:Iirc, the lore does state several times ships don't fire when facing their own planet. Doesn't really matter then what the exact speed of projectiles is and so forth. Risking a missed shot equals risking your homeworld, apparently.

Although I don't know for which type of ship this is true.

Or what the exact damage would be. Maybe in the context of an all-or-nothing war against Reapers a few leveled buildings or cities is excusable.

Or how reliable targeting technology is. I.e., if one can fire without risk when waiting for authorization or something.

That's the problem with lore. It's a simplified reality so there are too many variables lacking to be 100% sure of details like these.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I know there are people here who are more knowledgable on ME lore specifics. Before I get sucked into another argument I have no interest in.

With ME, I'm all for unconventional ideas, but I've never thought all that much of these supposed "lore breaks". Simply because it's too hard telling apart intentional from accidental errors.

It is stated in the lore that Orbital strikes are pretty common for quelling ground side resistance once Space superiority has been established. It is Large Kinetic Impactors which are prohibited for use if a habited planet is in the way, though what exactly that covers I dont know. Precise orbitals are okay though.

Large kinetic impactors... orbital strikes... all the same to me. Like you say, I don't know what it covers exactly.

"If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity."

This leaves a large gray area as well. We have velocity, projectile mass, recoil, suspension... You do the math...

Raistlin Majere wrote:

vlad78 wrote:Just to illustrate my point.

http://fathomingthestars.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/speed-of-light-in-atmo/

"Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one, to one-point-three percent of lightspeed."

The problem with your example lies in that quote from ME2. A Dreadnought, the most powerful ship class the Cycle can produce cannot reach anywhere near 90% of the speed of light on its main projectile. The Quarians do not even have a single Dreadnought in their fleet, the best they have done is jury rig their live ships to be comparable in size, but i doubt they added Mass Accelerators running the length of the ship.

Also the reason FTL weapons are not in use is because of a lock in FTL technology shutting it down if it is aimed at a solid target. This is a fail safe by the Reapers to prevent FTL weaponry being used against them. It can be circumvented as some Batarian terrorists did and replecating that process might be key to defeating the Reapers.

Okay to edit with new information. The Thanix gun on the Normandy operates at fractions of the speed of light in terms of speed. I have not found any real speed for more standard weaponry, but I noticed that broadside guns become useful at medium range in space engagements. The guns used by the Quarian fleet are facing sideways compared to the ship, so I would guess this is what we are talking about. Medium range for a space battle is when the two fleets start to intermingle, so basically any range beyond that is ample time for an opposing ship to avoid the broadside guns. Short range for the record is less than 10 Km.

So we are most likely dealing with weaponry not even near the speed of light firing upon the Destroyer.

- I think you're making a slight mistake here.
That's the ftl propulsion and navigation systems which have an inbuilt safety which prevents organics from using starships as suicide weapons against the reapers.


- You don't need 90% of light speed to produce serious damage to a world.
1.3 is already tremendous and far faster than anything encountered yet.
A single round arriving above a city would have catastrophic consequences even if it's just coming from the concussion .

- I'm not sure the range is only related with the time needed to avoid a volley. I'd rather think it's also about the precision of the shots especially if you have to aim with you ship.
Even turrets with light speed weapon couldn't move at the same speed.
But that's probably nitpicking on my part.

- Finally the bombardment of the quarian fleet goes right through Rannoch atmophere without any trouble.

And again, it's repeated several time, you do not fire at a ship which has a world behind it for fear of inflicting serious damage on it.
I'm not inventing or even speculating here.

Now wiki did the maths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_kill_vehicle
At 99% of speed of light, 1 kg arriving on earth would produce an explosion of almost 82 megatons more than the most powerful nuclear warhead ever tested on earth. = around 150 megatons
I guess with 1,3 % you still have something near the biggest nuclear blast triggered by men nowadays.

One nuclear blast every five second.

I stand my point. Battle of earth is not possible. Both in the ME universe and according to real physic.

Likewise for the bombardement of Rannoch.

Raistlin Majere wrote:

smash016 wrote:Iirc, the lore does state several times ships don't fire when facing their own planet. Doesn't really matter then what the exact speed of projectiles is and so forth. Risking a missed shot equals risking your homeworld, apparently.

Although I don't know for which type of ship this is true.

Or what the exact damage would be. Maybe in the context of an all-or-nothing war against Reapers a few leveled buildings or cities is excusable.

Or how reliable targeting technology is. I.e., if one can fire without risk when waiting for authorization or something.

That's the problem with lore. It's a simplified reality so there are too many variables lacking to be 100% sure of details like these.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I know there are people here who are more knowledgable on ME lore specifics. Before I get sucked into another argument I have no interest in.

With ME, I'm all for unconventional ideas, but I've never thought all that much of these supposed "lore breaks". Simply because it's too hard telling apart intentional from accidental errors.

It is stated in the lore that Orbital strikes are pretty common for quelling ground side resistance once Space superiority has been established. It is Large Kinetic Impactors which are prohibited for use if a habited planet is in the way, though what exactly that covers I dont know. Precise orbitals are okay though.

I thought they used rocks to do orbital strikes.
That's what the turian fleet did on shanxi.

keep in mind it's the radioactivity of a nuclear explosion that causes large scale consequences. Not that the damage isn't possibly prohibitively destructive, just that the ensuing nuclear winter and ground level radiation is what makes nuclear warfare such an insane proposition.

vlad78 wrote:

Likewise for the bombardement of Rannoch.

Regarding the FTL I mentioned that because the lore states that the weapons used are reliable on how long and powerful they can make the Mass Accelerators. If the Reaper lock was not in place nothing would prevent the use of FTL missiles (besides maybe the cost)

Also you missed the fact that 1.3% of the speed of light is at the upper limits of what can be thrown out. As I mentioned the actual guns used in the Rannoch incident were not anywhere near this caliber. The 1.3% is the kind of gun fired at the start of a space battle, t according to the codex, the main guns of Dreadnoughts, at tens of thousands of kilometers (Extreme range in the Codex and then there is also Long range), due to their speed The guns pelting the Destroyer were most likely guns used in Medium or lower range engagements, which is somewhere beyond 10km, but still at ranges where the two fleets intermingle. In short these guns have a much lower effective range and thus we most assume their speed is comparatively lower.

Keep in mind I am only arguing for the Rannoch incident, not Earth, which is screwed according to the cinematic.

As for Orbital Strikes they are simply mention as a tactic that can be used at leisure once space control is established in the codex. They dont specify the way the strike is done, though indeed at Shanxi the Turians did them by dropping orbiting debris to level city blocks.

Or maybe Rannoch is just Rule of Cool.

Lore breach, rule of cool, plausible physics... it's hard to tell.

Well I did not know that about female circumcision rif. I fully admit to ignorance here, I am only human, i swear I'm not willfully ignorant. There's so much to research, my bad for not doing enough on that specific subject. You're right that any sort of issue of which I might be speaking is so insignificant one might as well be like "who gives a fuck".

"Variety is the spice of life. I hope no one has to live in your ideal future where everyone is a clone of the 'perfect' DNA."

I didn't mean to paint that picture. I agree completely... but for instance, no person should suffer cancer? No person should have to die even. I believe these are things that LIMIT diversity, that we must transcend to reach the ultimate expression of diversity? Overcome our limits equally, so we all have the freedom to be and do what we want.

"They also steal human infants and eat them alive. So much for fairness, huh?"

In the studies on fairness it obviously involved another monkey treating the other unfairly. No qualms. HUMANS treat each other unfairly... I don't get your point. My point is that, the ones who put themselves on a higher post than everyone else get's an ass whooping.

Just look at you with feminists. I think we're pretty much the same rif, I think you've misinterpreted me and how I work.

"TIL cancer is the same thing as making everyone's voice the same so none of them are "feminine" or "masculine"."

I never suggested making everyone's voice the same? I express that there is simply an inadequate expression of something specific in media, that I would love to see moar of? The hero archetype inspires me, I would love to see more of it... big whoop.

Lastly... I agree with EVERYTHING you've expressed about feminism here and i thank you for loads of information I did not have before.

Unrelated note... I've decided to join the military. I'll be going to a recruiter once I move back to Colorado, to join the army.

Yeah, so why post that, unless you're attention-whoring.

Terramine wrote:Unrelated note... I've decided to join the military. I'll be going to a recruiter once I move back to Colorado, to join the army.

Murdering other nation's brown people is the ultimate American SJW cause. Congratulations on the dumbest decision of your life.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah, so why post that, unless you're attention-whoring.

What... the military thing? I'm sharing a fact to a community I thought I was a part of? Is there something wrong with trying to socialize?

Terramine wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah, so why post that, unless you're attention-whoring.

What... the military thing? I'm sharing a fact to a community I thought I was a part of? Is there something wrong with trying to socialize?

No there isn't. Now go be a good little storm trooper and fight for our empire in silence.

spotlessvoid wrote:

Terramine wrote:Unrelated note... I've decided to join the military. I'll be going to a recruiter once I move back to Colorado, to join the army.

Murdering other nation's brown people is the ultimate American SJW cause. Congratulations on the dumbest decision of your life.

I don't think you know what you are talking about if you'd disrespect the troops like that. I'm not naive, I know what's in store. Being turned into a mindless murderous drone to kill at the point of corrupt people in power. Nothing but merciless nonstop training, to hone me into a killer of people who are just that... people, just like me.

But really, don't judge before I open my mouth. I am doing this because I have done bad things in life, regrettable things that I do not know how to escape. The only sensible thing to do is forfeit my soul... I do not deserve to have one when I abused and misused the only one I was given. I humbly forfeit my right to a soul, I am but a worthless drone. I could never deserve to be forgiven if I didn't humbly do so.

And just maybe, upon throwing out my soul... a new one will be born, one that is so much more powerful that nothing else can compare. But I do not expect this, I am but a worthless drone.

Also FYI, I was a war criminal before contemplating joining the military. We all are, by paying our taxes and working the system. You perpetuate the bloody cogs, we all do.

Terramine wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah, so why post that, unless you're attention-whoring.

What... the military thing? I'm sharing a fact to a community I thought I was a part of? Is there something wrong with trying to socialize?

What, the community you said you'd leave forever, like last week or so?

Nobody cares about your past, present or future traumas, because you're just a dude from the internet, and an annoying one I might say. I don't know why you insist on posting all your personal stuff in here, but it's not the right place for it. And for crying out loud, do you have to make a huge debate out of every little thing? Gender debates and what not have no place in this thread. I don't come to this thread to read that kind of BS. Have some sense, man. We're just moments away from another off-topic debate about the military. (EDIT: Aaaaaand, too late)

The troops have my empathy, not my support. You are a scared child and you think the military will make you tough. You're an idiot.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Terramine wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah, so why post that, unless you're attention-whoring.

What... the military thing? I'm sharing a fact to a community I thought I was a part of? Is there something wrong with trying to socialize?

What, the community you said you'd leave forever, like last week or so?

Nobody cares about your past, present or future traumas, because you're just a dude from the internet, and an annoying one I might say. I don't know why you insist on posting all your personal stuff in here, but it's not the right place for it. And for crying out loud, do you have to make a huge debate out of every little thing? Gender debates and what not have no place in this thread. I don't come to this thread to read that kind of BS. Have some sense, man. We're just moments away from another off-topic debate about the military. (EDIT: Aaaaaand, too late)

I'm not the one who is turning it into that, stop pointing fingers all I did was as you said share something personal. I didn't even voice an opinion, Y'ALL did that first. It'd be hypocritical to expect me to not react. I've seen other people talk about their personal shit in here all the time before.

But hey you know what, I literally do it just so I can socialize and y'all respond with insults and hate. Like what this shit, dude is just trying to be yo guiz friends.

Edit: Also, I said I would leave UNTIL ME4 came out. But instead I just opted to stop the refuse stuff. Now I'm engaging in conversation civilly and finding middle grounds.

You don't need a friend. You need to be honest with yourself. Stop trying so hard to make others like you. Like yourself first.

spotlessvoid wrote:The troops have my empathy, not my support. You are a scared child and you think the military will make you tough.  You're an idiot.

Agree to disagree, you're insulting me unprovoked.

Also FYI, I did NOT MAKE IT INTO A DEBATE ABOUT GENDER. I was contributing to the conversation about the voice acting of MaleShep/FemShep. Someone else then targeted the labels I used.

Terramine wrote:

spotlessvoid wrote:The troops have my empathy, not my support. You are a scared child and you think the military will make you tough.  You're an idiot.

Agree to disagree, you're insulting me unprovoked.

Also FYI, I did NOT MAKE IT INTO A DEBATE ABOUT GENDER. I was contributing to the conversation about the voice acting of MaleShep/FemShep. Someone else then targeted the labels I used.

You are not a victim.

No, you didn't start it this time, nevertheless you insist on posting personal off-topic flame-baitish randomness. This is not your personal blog. Socializing is what the chat is for.