(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

indoctrination works primarily by manipulating the limbic system, triggering the chemical reward mechanisms to encourage/discourage cognitive patterns. Shepard doesn't have any mechanism to physically do this like the Reapers do. So tell me how it works?

Maybe you're still ignoring me, but in case you're not -- enslaving human minds through ultrasound and infrasound, or setting up a hive mind through spores/pheromones -- stuff like that is essentially just space magic, is it not?

So by that rationale I think the writers could easily think of something for Shepard if they wanted to. See also Vlad's suggestions.

By the way, I'm not that into this idea of Shepard affecting the minds of others. But indoctrination basically IS space magic, so... yeah.

(edit) Or what about Shepard's Dominate power? "Simple" biotics could be the answer.

it's not space magic. The manipulation of the limbic system will produce those results. Anything that can manipulate the chemical reward mechanisms can subsequently impact cognitive function. That the details of how the Reapers specifically use infrasound to do it remains a mystery is justified in universe. Nobody has ever studied a living Reaper.

On the other hand we know all about human beings and there's no known mechanisms to manipulate the limbic system. So you'd be making up something in universe that has no real world correlation. Might as well suggest Shep can fire off butt lasers because it's about as scientifically justified.

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

The codex entry on Indoctrination.

I doubt Shepard is emitting precise electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise.

I'm A bit rusty on the lore, but what's the in-universe explanation for Asari and Rachni telepathy? Is it an extension of their biotics? If so, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine Shepard having a latent version of it that gives him / her some sort of enhanced charisma / quasi-indoctrination. I'm not convinced that this is what's supposed to be happening, but I quite like the idea so I wouldn't object to it if that's the direction they decided to go.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

The codex entry on Indoctrination.

I doubt Shepard is emitting precise electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise.

Shepard maybe using an organic version of it. Furthermore, it´s been said indoctrinated subjects relay the indoctrination around them. do they emit such things as electromagnetic fields? i think not.

Remember leviathan said indoctrination is an imitation of levi power.

The question how does shepard do this in the ME universe is not told, but as I said it could be several things, exposure to indoctrination could make of him a relay and his mutatioń could allow him to resist and be in charge of the network his indoctrinated mind would create even if he doesn't realize it.

But i'm convinced it is a natural thing for him.

@spotlessvoid

The effect of indoctrination upon the limbic system does not explain how do indoctrinated subjects share memories and other informations.
Therefore there' s an awful lot of things the codex just ignore about indoctrination.
We can only discuss about the symptoms atm. I'm sure this will be a central topic in the next game.

Imho it is obvious dark energy is involved.
Rachni and shiala are biotics.

Remember dark energy in ME is like the force in kotor2.

All humans have electromagnetic fields. Our nervous system uses electrical impulses. You can't have one without the other.

if we're reducing indoctrination to swag then I don't know what to say

spotlessvoid wrote:if we're reducing indoctrination to swag then I don't know what to say

Misanthropy. Sometimes it just makes sense.

ZerebusPrime wrote:All humans have electromagnetic fields.  Our nervous system uses electrical impulses.  You can't have one without the other.

Which is why I said "precise" and not just EM fields.

We may have them, but that does not make them able to influence others...and certainly not in a specific way.

spotlessvoid wrote:it's not space magic. The manipulation of the limbic system will produce those results. Anything that can manipulate the chemical reward mechanisms can subsequently impact cognitive function. That the details of how the Reapers specifically use infrasound to do it remains a mystery is justified in universe. Nobody has ever studied a living Reaper.

On the other hand we know all about human beings and there's no known mechanisms to manipulate the limbic system. So you'd be making up something in universe that has no real world correlation. Might as well suggest Shep can fire off butt lasers because it's about as scientifically justified.

There is no analogue in the ME universe for firing off butt lasers.

But in this universe, there is:
- humans with telekinetic powers called biotics, which have no real-world correlation and are not properly explained using real-world scientific concepts
- humans and other organics with mind-controlling powers (eg., Dominate), again through biotics
- other organics (asari) that can "wirelessly" read and affect others' minds (again likely through biotics)
- indoctrinated humans that organically radiate their indoctrination to others
- humans exhibiting organic, wireless neural networks and hive minds with each other (Thorian victims)
- an organic equivalent of quantum entanglement

So could the writers come up with something for Shepard, the hero that in this universe is both implicitly and explicitly special and unique, so that he/she could affect the minds of others? Yes, I feel they could.

Not saying I necessarily believe or hope they will, but for the sake of argument, I think they could.

Furthermore, I don't feel a little psychobabble about the limbic system and conditioning is that convincing an explanation for the Reapers. It's still far from hard sci-fi.

Rifneno wrote:

spotlessvoid wrote:if we're reducing indoctrination to swag then I don't know what to say

Misanthropy.  Sometimes it just makes sense.

lol

Raistlin Majere wrote:

ZerebusPrime wrote:All humans have electromagnetic fields.  Our nervous system uses electrical impulses.  You can't have one without the other.

Which is why I said "precise" and not just EM fields.

We may have them, but that does not make them able to influence others...and certainly not in a specific way.

In my grade school science class we once performed a simple experiment. Students would pair up and sit in chairs back-to-back so you couldn't see each other. One student would be given an object (block, screw, coin, string, etc) and be instructed to concentrate on that object. The other student was then tasked to draw the object without seeing it or being told what it was. The results of this experiment were quite spooky: most of us either drew something similar to the object or added features to our drawings that were unique to that object. In my case I drew a spiral hole in everything because my partner was pressing the sharp end of a screw into her hand and kept screwing it back and forth. I didn't draw the screw, but I was certainly influenced. When it was time to switch up, I was given a cube block. I couldn't hold the cube steady in my mind; my brain kept moving it or distorting it for whatever reason. My partner still ended up drawing a warped cube.

Unable to influence others indeed. Have you never expressed the same thought as a friend or family member at the exact same time they do? There is a system at play here; we don't have the ability to control it but these fictional Reapers clearly do.

I'm sorry, but there is no scientific evidence for telepathy. Anecdotes can't change that.

ZerebusPrime wrote:

Raistlin Majere wrote:

ZerebusPrime wrote:All humans have electromagnetic fields.  Our nervous system uses electrical impulses.  You can't have one without the other.

Which is why I said "precise" and not just EM fields.

We may have them, but that does not make them able to influence others...and certainly not in a specific way.

In my grade school science class we once performed a simple experiment.  Students would pair up and sit in chairs back-to-back so you couldn't see each other.  One student would be given an object (block, screw, coin, string, etc) and be instructed to concentrate on that object.  The other student was then tasked to draw the object without seeing it or being told what it was.  The results of this experiment were quite spooky: most of us either drew something similar to the object or added features to our drawings that were unique to that object.  In my case I drew a spiral hole in everything because my partner was pressing the sharp end of a screw into her hand and kept screwing it back and forth.  I didn't draw the screw, but I was certainly influenced.  When it was time to switch up, I was given a cube block.  I couldn't hold the cube steady in my mind; my brain kept moving it or distorting it for whatever reason.  My partner still ended up drawing a warped cube.

Unable to influence others indeed.  Have you never expressed the same thought as a friend or family member at the exact same time they do?  There is a system at play here; we don't have the ability to control it but these fictional Reapers clearly do.

I know the feeling, but there is a difference between two family members or friends thinking the same thing and Shepard's ability to make people follow him is some supernatural ability.

Also regarding the biotic influence mentioned further up, not every Shepard is a biotic.

And no I would not call the Biotic "Dominate" power evidence for every Shepard being Biotic. Gameplay and Story segregation, even if your Shepard is technically not a biotic it should not make it impossible for you to choose a certain bonus power.

Raistlin Majere wrote:

ZerebusPrime wrote:

Raistlin Majere wrote:

ZerebusPrime wrote:All humans have electromagnetic fields.  Our nervous system uses electrical impulses.  You can't have one without the other.

Which is why I said "precise" and not just EM fields.

We may have them, but that does not make them able to influence others...and certainly not in a specific way.

In my grade school science class we once performed a simple experiment.  Students would pair up and sit in chairs back-to-back so you couldn't see each other.  One student would be given an object (block, screw, coin, string, etc) and be instructed to concentrate on that object.  The other student was then tasked to draw the object without seeing it or being told what it was.  The results of this experiment were quite spooky: most of us either drew something similar to the object or added features to our drawings that were unique to that object.  In my case I drew a spiral hole in everything because my partner was pressing the sharp end of a screw into her hand and kept screwing it back and forth.  I didn't draw the screw, but I was certainly influenced.  When it was time to switch up, I was given a cube block.  I couldn't hold the cube steady in my mind; my brain kept moving it or distorting it for whatever reason.  My partner still ended up drawing a warped cube.

Unable to influence others indeed.  Have you never expressed the same thought as a friend or family member at the exact same time they do?  There is a system at play here; we don't have the ability to control it but these fictional Reapers clearly do.

I know the feeling, but there is a difference between two family members or friends thinking the same thing and Shepard's ability to make people follow him is some supernatural ability.

Also regarding the biotic influence mentioned further up, not every Shepard is a biotic.

And no I would not call the Biotic "Dominate" power evidence for every Shepard being Biotic. Gameplay and Story segregation, even if your Shepard is technically not a biotic it should not make it impossible for you to choose a certain bonus power.

You are thinking in term of gameplay but narrative is usually BW main concern.

BW games do not usually work like other games.

I agree preventing some players to use their squadmates' power because they are not biotic would be a poor move but if you're thinking ahead and decide any shep is a latent biotic without making it explicit in the narrative, the problem is solved without breaking the narrative.

On the other hand, if you decide to let any shep handle biotic powers, and if there is no good reason within the lore to allow this, you're directly breaching the narrative in a game where imho it is of paramount importance.

With IT, the main idea is to think past game mechanisms and assume there's a reason in the narrative for what we were shown.

Of course I could be utterly wrong.
Narrative breach do happen for gameplay sake but it's the job of the writers to reduce them to a minimum. If Shep 's uniqueness is tied in some way to dark energy, such breach isn't likely to happen on this particular topic.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Also regarding the biotic influence mentioned further up, not every Shepard is a biotic.

And no I would not call the Biotic "Dominate" power evidence for every Shepard being Biotic. Gameplay and Story segregation, even if your Shepard is technically not a biotic it should not make it impossible for you to choose a certain bonus power.

It's not that relevant whether every Shepard is a (latent) biotic or not. Or at least it's not what I wanted to get across.

The point is ME's fictional universe provides ample opportunity for "supernatural", mind-affecting abilities to exist, and not just for the Reapers.

vlad78 wrote:

You are thinking in term of gameplay but narrative is usually BW main concern.

BW games do not usually work like other games.

I agree preventing some players to use their squadmates' power because they are not biotic would be a poor move but if you're thinking ahead and decide any shep is a latent biotic without making it explicit in the narrative, the problem is solved without breaking the narrative.

On the other hand, if you decide to let any shep handle biotic powers, and if there is no good reason within the lore to allow this, you're directly breaching the narrative in a game where imho it is of paramount importance.

With IT, the main idea is to think past game mechanisms and assume there's a reason in the narrative for what we were shown.

Of course I could be utterly wrong.
Narrative breach do happen for gameplay sake but it's the job of the writers to reduce them to a minimum.  If Shep 's uniqueness is tied in some way to dark energy, such breach isn't likely to happen on this particular topic.

He might be latent, but the problem is then that someone gave him the necessary implants...and then he was never placed on a training course that would lead to him actually using Biotics (in the Case of Soldier, Engineer)...which would seem like a monumental waste of resources.

And yes while there are various forces with mind affecting abilities, none of those have ever even been close to human.

There is also a very basic problem I have with it...it takes away from what makes Shepard, Shepard in my book. Shepard is the badass with exceptional skills, willpower and the leadership to unite multiple very different people towards a single goal.

However under these discussions we want to remove the last part as actually a part of his character and instead attribute it to some strange supernatural attraction that no hints as to its origins or how it works and which has barely any support for actually existing (as in no one ever fucking looks at Shepard and states his attraction is unnatural, barring maybe Aria when she states Paragon Shep has gotten to her...) within what is shown in the game.

Yeah well, that's why I like to play as a biotic. Because then there's at least some justification for having so much plot armor and being special enough to save the universe. Otherwise Shepard is basically a giant cliché.

And what about humans being part of a Thorian neural network, or transferring their indoctrination to others? What about humans wielding the Dominate power? Is that all just gameplay mechanics? I'd say there is precedence for human minds being capable of supernatural feats. The asari's advanced biotics grant them their supernatural abilities, humanity's level of biotics is merely more primitive but can potentially reach similar levels.

Biotics is just an advanced stage of evolution in ME's universe. It seems eezo isn't distributed randomly either.

If Shepard has indoctrination ability then why is the proper verbal responses need to convince characters?

smash016 wrote:Yeah well, that's why I like to play as a biotic. Because then there's at least some justification for having so much plot armor and being special enough to save the universe. Otherwise Shepard is basically a giant cliché.

And what about humans being part of a Thorian neural network, or transferring their indoctrination to others? What about humans wielding the Dominate power? Is that all just gameplay mechanics? I'd say there is precedence for human minds being capable of supernatural feats. The asari's advanced biotics grant them their supernatural abilities, humanity's level of biotics is merely more primitive but can potentially reach similar levels.

Biotics is just an advanced stage of evolution in ME's universe. It seems eezo isn't distributed randomly either.

Shepard is the hero. Someone has to have this role or the Reapers win again, as they have hundreds of times. There will be no victory over the Reapers without some cliches, the mere way the Reapers are presented is a cliche...indeed one can never completely avoid cliches. In fact it would already be over had the Protheans not pulled a massive sacrifice gambit and made sure this cycle has a fighting chance.

The Thorian network is the spores it distributed to control people lingering on in those affected, keeping the connection between them but without the overmind. It is even stated in ME2 that these spores have lingering negative effects that the colony need medical help to solve

Dominate is only available as a bonus power and only from an Asari who fries peoples brains...we have not seen a human use domination outside of it being a Player only combat power.

The Indoctrination part is more tricky I give you that. I have seen nano machines mentioned, but that is about it.

But most importantly it is (nearly, and even then it is shaky if thats hinting)never hinted that Shepard's influence is supernatural, it is never theorized and it is never brought up. They spend time speculating if Shepard is really Shepard or some kind of clone or AI, but never any of what people are discussing here.

Any such reveal would need build up or it would just be an ass pull.

@spotlessvoid

Yeah, to me it feels like Shepard's persuasion skill is just a perk for investing in your Charm / Intimidate talents.

However I don't think the lore precludes a deeper meaning per se.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Shepard is the hero. Someone has to have this role or the Reapers win again, as they have hundreds of times. There will be no victory over the Reapers without some cliches, the mere way the Reapers are presented is a cliche...indeed one can never completely avoid cliches. In fact it would already be over had the Protheans not pulled a massive sacrifice gambit and made sure this cycle has a fighting chance.

The Thorian network is the spores it distributed to control people lingering on in those affected, keeping the connection between them but without the overmind. It is even stated in ME2 that these spores have lingering negative effects that the colony need medical help to solve

Dominate is only available as a bonus power and only from an Asari who fries peoples brains...we have not seen a human use domination outside of it being a Player only combat power.

The Indoctrination part is more tricky I give you that. I have seen nano machines mentioned, but that is about it.

But most importantly it is (nearly, and even then it is shaky if thats hinting)never hinted that Shepard's influence is supernatural, it is never theorized and it is never brought up. They spend time speculating if Shepard is really Shepard or some kind of clone or AI, but never any of what people are discussing here.

Any such reveal would need build up or it would just be an ass pull.

Like I said, I'm opposed to the idea, too. Because there's not enough to go on and because I simply don't like it. But I don't deem it impossible on lore grounds.

And I seem to remember more instances than just Aria's where it is mentioned Shepard's an exceptional leader and people blindly follow him/her, eg. regarding the suicide mission. Question is whether that's referring to some latent supertalent or just Shepard's role as the big hero.

No, one can never avoid all clichés but Shepard having some kind of special edge would be welcome, imo. But I'd prefer some kind of biological anomaly that results in high resistance to indoctrination or something. Like, how the hell did Shepard come that far without getting indoctrinated? Constantly near Reapers. "Gameplay" is not sufficient to justify it.

spotlessvoid wrote:If Shepard has indoctrination ability then why is the proper verbal responses need to convince characters?

Because it's unconscious imho. The player has to lead the conversation toward the desired choice and paragon and renegade choices just open up.
In ME1 and ME2 the ability of those choices depends on Shep persuasion or Pragon or renegade level level but it's not true anymore in ME3.

In fact there really few situations where the choice of conversation matters, you just choose the paragon or renegade dialog and SHAZAM people are convinced.

The only exceptions are:
TIM because he's not there in the flesh.

Ash or Kaidan on Horizon when they tell shep 'And what if it is Cerberus which is behind the colonists abductions...' which is extraordinarily important.

Liara when she doesn't want to leave with shep and seek the shadow broker instead.


@ Raistlin Majere

An ass pull? Not at all.
The game specifically says Shep has something special. It is never said what.
His squadmates often speak about the fire which convince people to follow him.

And again read the foundation comics and tell me what it is which makes cerberus scientists feel atached to the clone they have the direct order to destroy?
(atached is also the word used by Miranda if you romance her)

Imho it's like indoctrination theory, if it happens to be real, most players are used to conventionnal gameplay too much to really pay attention about it.
Just like you said, shep is the hero, therefore is seems natural to see him able to convince everyone, just like any hero in every hollywood movie.

And what if this is absolutely not natural?