(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Rifneno wrote:

OneWithTheAssassins wrote:That was a LOOONG time ago...

It sure was.  :(

To be fair even way back we had stupid ideas coming and going. But back then we also had fresh information and speculation. Now we got nothing, absolutely nothing.

But to try and add something to discuss, can we just take a look at how massively Bioware dropped the ball when it came to the Reapers in ME3? Keep in mind I am talking from a position of how things are loking now. I beleive in IT, but with things as they are I feel it is worth pointing out all the stupidity and wasted potential Bioware have caused.

Now the Reapers were hardly interesting from a innovative point in ME1 and 2, the ancient killer robot race is hardly a novel idea, but the idea of how unstoppable they are was near perfectly build up over the first two games while also expanding on them, without killing their mystery. Before the third game speculation was rampant on how the fuck we were gonna win. We also had Harbinger who was build up in ME2 as the face among the Reapers, the DLC practically ending with Harbinger acknowledging Shepard as "an annoyance."

Then come ME3 and especially the ending and the Reapers while efficient at the start, there was no sign of Habinger for almost the entire game and then we get the fucking Starbrat at the end who reveals the Reapers are really all under his control with no free will of their own.

It was a slap in the face to me as I had until then loved that Bioware had seemingly avoided the whole hive mind and/or single leader mentallity that so often crops up with sci-fi hordes. The Reapers were hive minds in and of themselves, but individual in comparision to each other, united in a goal, but each still independent, a nation on to its own to quote them. It gave rise to Harbinger and Sovereign who were both incredibly memorable and were in control despite serving a grander goal. Then the ending turned Harbinger into Starbrats bitch along with the rest of the species...

ME3 also used a fucking keystone army scenario, where one single thing at the right place is an instant win condition. Now I knew something would have to be done, afterall there was no way the current forces could win this, but a keystone scenario is like the lamest plot device and diminished the each a nation speech once again.

But above all, what I hate the most about how the Reapers were handled was this attempt at giving them a justification for what they did, make us think, "hey perhaps they are not so bad." Now this is not necesarily bad, but doing such a thing needs buildup. If the evil overlord is to have a moment at the end where he reveals he was trying to unite the world in peace through conquest, we need to see hints at this throughout the story or it just becomes a last second asspull trying to make the player feel sorry for the bastard.

As someone who writes and takes great care and pride in building up just about any major reveal I make I hate this part like the plague and consider it one of the best cases for IT. Sure the Reapers motivations were mysterious, but they were never, ever hinted to be benevolent or necesary in any capacity except by people who were Indoctrinated by them.

And where the fuck was Harbinger. Right he is the brat, but until a proper reveal of that is done, he will have just been kind of missing.

And that is why I think ME3 ruined the Reapers (and many other things), at least until an IT reveal.

well on BSN peeps are saying how IT kinda fell flat on it's arse after the ME3 ending, but I still say that without IT ME3s ending is the worst ending in video game history because it makes zero sense without IT.

As far as the supposed new storyline is concerned, I want to know what kind of brainfart they are going to use to justify people in the helios cluster.

Raistlin Majere wrote:To be fair even way back we had stupid ideas coming and going. But back then we also had fresh information and speculation. Now we got nothing, absolutely nothing.

Even still, the average IQ was magnitudes what it is now.  Before, we had peer review and attempted scientific method.  An idea or observation was put forth, and the group discussed chances of coincidence or accident, we had long conversations about the merits of things.  Now?  Now we have "U GUISE I HAVE <insert random idea that is based on nothing but things seen on acid trips>!" followed by agreements that include the word "bioderp" approximately 9 times per letter.  

Those days are long gone. I remember back then the urge to check every hour where the conversations where headed and read hours of the new theories and discoveries.

Few of those great minds are left, replaced by mindless husks....

Mindless Brigade, represent.

Jusseb wrote:Those days are long gone. I remember back then the urge to check every hour where the conversations where headed and read hours of the new theories and discoveries.

Few of those great minds are left, replaced by mindless husks....

the problem is there is nothing left to discover. it's all been discussed to death over the last 3 years.

And then one goes back to BSN and finds out that the background chorus of disinformation has outshouted the lack of new findings. I'm especially amused (or is that disgusted?) whenever I hear that the Leviathan DLC disproved the Indoctrination Theory.

ZerebusPrime wrote:And then one goes back to BSN and finds out that the background chorus of disinformation has outshouted the lack of new findings.  I'm especially amused (or is that disgusted?) whenever I hear that the Leviathan DLC disproved the Indoctrination Theory.

Amused would be the correct response, I think.

That kind of ridiculous assertation shows such a singlar lack of understanding of not only Mass Effect but storytelling in general that I cannot even.

The only way someone could possibly come to that conclusiuon is if they didn't play the DLC in the first place, and were just parroting what they'd from someone.  Somewhere. Who hadn't played the DLC either.

Anyone who has played Leviathan knows it is essentially a bone thrown to the conspiracy theorists.  The clue - for the wilfully oblivious - is in the achievement.

I guess that's my cue...

"have you ever had that feeling... that you've been here before?  That feeling, you can only say what it is in French"

Vuja de!

It comes to my understanding from the youtube videos about the endings of ME3....

People often picked control because they couldn't kill the geth, refuse to solve the problem and synthesis was either stupid or horrible concept. Moreover controlling the Reapers because they wanted Shepard to be the guardian of the galaxy.

Going from this people pick destroy because victory at any cost, it feels right to kill the Reapers for that was the objective we sought to do, and our Shepard still lives despite the catalyst warnings.

Synthesis people pick it because they want to save everyone and that includes the reapers for it wasn't their faults. Ironically though people justify their choice by saying everyone works together with no problems since synthesis in real life is ideally good.

Refuse eeee people hated the endings and felt the choices were unfair.

Now from our perspectives we see control and synthesis as the primary Reapers ideals we have fought against. We know that control just leads us to be a tool for the Reapers and nobody can control them for each are independent yet have a hive like mind with common goals yet different views.

To think that in Leviathan DLC when the leviathan tells us that they did create an AI which gave birth to Harbinger the FIRST Reaper, leads to large speculations that the AI did infact merge with the Reaper and became Harbinger since ideal wise Leviathan DLC is the only time it was stated that there is a leading force that leads the Reapers.

Harbinger is the answer we all believe in since at the end of ME2 he is leading the charge towards the galaxy and Harbinger is reported to have lead the Earth invasion, FREAKING lead right AS the child appeared. come on that can NOT be just a coincident.

But going back to the topic at hand control is us becoming a tool much like all the indoctrinated agents. Plus when the camera intentionally zooms in on the AI's face but it was hard to make out. Much to our evidence we believe it is a smirk, in which we were played.

Synthesis however is different. We become one with the Reapers, primarily probably the next Reaper in this cycle. By agreeing to this ending we are willingly giving up our Shepard's humanity and identity to the Reapers to reshape and reuse.

Destroy haha, what is there to say. In this ending the AI is telling us that this ending is based on the past cycles logic that it fueled the fires of war more between organics and synthetics. We must also note in control and synthesis it was based on facts that it knew about despite little knowledge upon the crucible.

Overall destroy has four ending runs that the last one is the HIGHEST ending to unlock, even when they dropped the 1000 ems requirement. It still beat synthesis and that tells you something. If the best ending in ME3 in terms of unlocking endings are then Destroy is the ending that we are looking for.

ElSuperGecko wrote:

ZerebusPrime wrote:And then one goes back to BSN and finds out that the background chorus of disinformation has outshouted the lack of new findings.  I'm especially amused (or is that disgusted?) whenever I hear that the Leviathan DLC disproved the Indoctrination Theory.

Amused would be the correct response, I think.

That kind of ridiculous assertation shows such a singlar lack of understanding of not only Mass Effect but storytelling in general that I cannot even.

The only way someone could possibly come to that conclusiuon is if they didn't play the DLC in the first place, and were just parroting what they'd from someone.  Somewhere.  Who hadn't played the DLC either.

Anyone who has played Leviathan knows it is essentially a bone thrown to the conspiracy theorists.  The clue - for the wilfully oblivious - is in the achievement.

I remember that very well. It was a fun day when it came out. Probably the best dlc that further proved we were right. However time has not changed between to those that disregard it such. They believe in what they see rather than question, they bark to others words rather than speak out, they refuse to believe their Shepard is the superior, when we know Shepard is kill-able and breakable.

We were labeled and still are " conspiracy theorist" in the eyes of those who hated IT so much or simply didn't understand it. And to our belief as either a joke or a bone Bioware acknowledged us upon our findings of how one isn't as convinced on what is in-front of them but rather than do investigation upon clues.

I just watch jarrods vid every now and again. well thought out and presented. doesn't go into indoctrination in detail just lays out the facts.

I haven't been keeping up with Mass Effect for a while now but last I remember ME3 was it and BioWare had plans for a 4th ME that would not continue from the 3rd one. This really was such a lost opportunity for BioWare and EA both to make more money than they thought possible from the series.

Imagine if everything from 1 and 2, all those clues, hints then the Leviathon DLC. Imagine if the devs had simply paced it slower rather than bring out the kid and give us a choice and the middle finger. BioWare could have easily made 3 more games continuing Shepard's story.

The game didn't need a happy ending really or a player's choice ending. Let's say if the kid wasn't there and Shepard managed to help stop Harbinger but then all the other Reapers would still be around. This could have opened up the story for people to flee Earth and scatter then Shepard and crew could travel helping people while learning more about the Reapers.

The Reaper idea had such limitless potential. This could have provided enjoyable stories leading eventually into dark space I think it was called where the Reapers supposedly stayed when not killing everything. Shepard could have explored that near the end of the journey and ultimately found the Reapers' weakness to be able to defeat them.

Instead we got what felt like hundreds of hours of potential content ignored, not created and instead they gave us so much less than the game itself deserved. In the end it wouldn't have mattered if Shepard lived or died so long as the story was properly complete which really could have used at least 5 or 6 total games rather than just 3.

So instead of making this series quite possibly the best game series ever, BioWare shortened it, shit on it and last I read will be releasing a 4th that isn't even that relevant to the events of 1,2, and 3. For some of us it may have been welcomed just to get a redo in a way since we knew BioWare wouldn't do what they should have with the series.

Southbeatz:

I sort of agree that I dont need a player choice ending, in fact i would probably prefer an ending shaped by your choices up till then instead of a choice at the end, unless something interesting can be done (which by IT, they did with the endings, giving us the choice to fall).

But after three games, I want an ending that is at least somewhat happy. Losses are to be expected and we did lose people. Mordin, Thane, Legion, they all died in this war along with countless other minor characters.

But after all that suffering, I really want the possibility to at least give Shepard a way out, a way to live. The hero may be ready to give his life to stop the ancient threat, but that does not mean he/she always has to.

I dont care if it is the bonus ending for doing litterally everything right across all games, but give Shepard a chance for a happy end, please.

At least there is the Destroy scene at the moment.

Hmmm, Clevernoob's Indoctrination Theory videos gone from YouTube?

Raistlin Majere wrote:Southbeatz:

I sort of agree that I dont need a player choice ending, in fact i would probably prefer an ending shaped by your choices up till then instead of a choice at the end, unless something interesting can be done (which by IT, they did with the endings, giving us the choice to fall).

But after three games, I want an ending that is at least somewhat happy. Losses are to be expected and we did lose people. Mordin, Thane, Legion, they all died in this war along with cuntless other minor characters.

But after all that suffering, I really want the possibility to at least give Shepard a way out, a way to live. The hero may be ready to give his life to stop the ancient threat, but that does not mean he/she always has to.

I dont care if it is the bonus ending for doing litterally everything right across all games, but give Shepard a chance for a happy end, please.

At least there is the Destroy scene at the moment.

That's all I ever wanted, a happy ending that Shepard, after everything s/he went through deserves.
Apparently, something as simple as that is too much to ask from Bioware.
Go fuck yourself Bioware/EA.

ElSuperGecko wrote:Hmmm, Clevernoob's Indoctrination Theory videos gone from YouTube?

Doesn't surprise me as much. People thought HE created it or was simply the sole reason why it continued. However it was not the case. It was everyone who contributed to the idea. I remember when some a-hole created the "Mass Effect Indoctrination Theory book" just to make money off of our work and others.

It matters not. We have the majority of the videos still kicking around and still going stronger than ever. Just that we are in hibernation sleep due to hardly any news that is worth wild.

I think I'll go see what comments the videos have and see if i could gather more incite on what people think of IT still to get a better idea. Probably get into debates but it shall be fun. I've grown quite a lot in the last three years. Hehe!

Master Blaster wrote:I think I'll go see what comments the videos have and see if i could gather more incite on what people think of IT still to get a better idea. Probably get into debates but it shall be fun. I've grown quite a lot in the last three years. Hehe!

From my recent experiences on BSN, we seem to still have a strong undercurrent. Unfortunately, it's an undercurrent.

ZerebusPrime wrote:And then one goes back to BSN and finds out that the background chorus of disinformation has outshouted the lack of new findings.  I'm especially amused (or is that disgusted?) whenever I hear that the Leviathan DLC disproved the Indoctrination Theory.

Neither.  Leviathan was masterfully crafted so that it seemed to support your belief, no matter what that belief was.

Master Blaster wrote:Refuse eeee people hated the endings and felt the choices were unfair are fucktards and do fucktarded things.

Fixed.

southbeatz wrote:I haven't been keeping up with Mass Effect for a while now but last I remember ME3 was it and BioWare had plans for a 4th ME that would not continue from the 3rd one.

You Are Wrong Because:

For your convenience, I have circled the brain malfunction(s) that most closely resemble(s) the one(s) you recently made on the topic of (fill in topic):

20. FAULTY PATTERN RECOGNITION
Example: His lust six wives were murdered mysteriously. I hope to be wife number seven.

Master Blaster wrote:

ElSuperGecko wrote:Hmmm, Clevernoob's Indoctrination Theory videos gone from YouTube?

Doesn't surprise me as much. People thought HE created it or was simply the sole reason why it continued.

Are you sure they didn't just think that because you're a lying bastard that lied about Byne having "stolen the idea" from him?  Sorry, hard to hear over the sound of all your fucking lies.

Scary Door wrote:Shit

You Are Wrong Because:

For your convenience, I have circled the brain malfunction(s) that most closely resemble(s) the one(s) you recently made on the topic of EVERYTHING):

1. AMAZINGLY BAD ANALOGY
Example: You can train a dog to fetch a stick. Therefore, you can train a potato to dance.

8. TOTAL LOGICAL DISCONNECT
Example: I enjoy pasta because my house is made of bricks.

10. ANYTHING YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IS EASY TO DO
ExampIe: If you have the right tools, how hard could it be to generate nuclear fission at home?

14. IRRELEVANT COMPARISONS
Example: A hundred dollars is a good price for a toaster, compared to buying a Ferrari.

15. CIRCULAR REASONING
Example: I’m correct because I’m smarter than you. And I must be smarter than you because I’m correct.

18. FOLLOWING THE ADVICE OF KNOWN IDIOTS
Example: Uncle Billy says pork makes you smarter. That’s good enough for me!

19. REACHING BIZARRE CONCLUSIONS WITHOUT ANY INFORMATION
Example: The car won’t start. I’m certain the spark plugs have been stolen by rogue clowns.

24. IGNORING ALL ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE
Example: I always get hives immediately after eating strawberries. But without a scientifically controlled experiment, it’s not reliable data. So I continue to eat strawberries every day, since I can’t tell if they cause hives.

25. INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT SOME THINGS HAVE MULTIPLE CAUSES
Example: The Beatles were popular for one reason only: They were good singers.

26. JUDGING THE WHOLE BY ONE OF ITS CHARACTERISTICS
Example: The sun causes sunburns. Therefore, the planet would be better off without the sun.

29. HALLUCINATIONS OF REALITY
Example: I got my facts from a talking tree.

32. PROOF BY LACK OF EVIDENCE
Example: I’ve never seen you drunk, so you must be one of those Amish people.

honestly sometimes I'm in awe.

dorktainian wrote:honestly sometimes I'm in awe.

Me too.

In unrelated new, I've just been given a two-week enforced hiatus from the Fantasy Flight Games forum for daring to suggest that one of the other posters wasn't actually very good at the game.

Maybe I'm just too used to posting here to be allowed back into the general population...

ElSuperGecko wrote:Hmmm, Clevernoob's Indoctrination Theory videos gone from YouTube?

Don't tell me you were going to add them to the comprehensive list of IT videos...