Gender?(poll)

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19% 19% 
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6% 6% 
[ 2 ]
6% 6% 
[ 2 ]
 
Total Votes : 36

Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Arashi08 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:18 am

Gummy wrote:Surgery and stuff is still to go, haven't done much yet because of personal stuff but that's about to change.
In any case it shouldn't be relevant, but for the general population I would be male, even if I perceive myself differently.

Also I think I scared away everybody else :D

I'm also transgendered, so it's nice to make your aquaintance :)

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:00 am

Arashi08 wrote:
Gummy wrote:Surgery and stuff is still to go, haven't done much yet because of personal stuff but that's about to change.
In any case it shouldn't be relevant, but for the general population I would be male, even if I perceive myself differently.

Also I think I scared away everybody else :D

I'm also transgendered, so it's nice to make your aquaintance :)

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Wait, 2 trans on 1 forum? What are the odds :P

What kind of trans are you, if you don't mind me asking?

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Arashi08 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:32 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Arashi08 wrote:
Gummy wrote:Surgery and stuff is still to go, haven't done much yet because of personal stuff but that's about to change.
In any case it shouldn't be relevant, but for the general population I would be male, even if I perceive myself differently.

Also I think I scared away everybody else :D

I'm also transgendered, so it's nice to make your aquaintance :)

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Wait, 2 trans on 1 forum? What are the odds :P

What kind of trans are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Well there are millions of transgendered people all over the world so the odds aren't THAT low :P

I'm MtF, same as Gummy I assume.
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:15 pm

Arashi08 wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Arashi08 wrote:
Gummy wrote:Surgery and stuff is still to go, haven't done much yet because of personal stuff but that's about to change.
In any case it shouldn't be relevant, but for the general population I would be male, even if I perceive myself differently.

Also I think I scared away everybody else :D

I'm also transgendered, so it's nice to make your aquaintance :)

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Wait, 2 trans on 1 forum? What are the odds :P

What kind of trans are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Well there are millions of transgendered people all over the world so the odds aren't THAT low :P

I'm MtF, same as Gummy I assume.
Well based on very loose guess work from google.

14 million transgendered people worldwide.

200 million gamers worldwide.

So already, a very small portion of gamers are transgendered. Also, the majority of Humans tend to be pretty ignorant and have no real desire for rational thought. So only a fraction of transgendered people are going to be rational thinkers, and even less so among the transgendered gamers. That's cutting it down quite a bit. There is 7 billion people on earth, only about 200 or so million are gamers... only a small fraction of Gamers at best are transgendered, and only a small fraction of that group think rationally.

But I just realized that regardless of the odds... among the very small minority of Transgendered, Rational, Gamers. Said people would be attracted to a place like this because it is oriented towards rational Gamers :P

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Arashi08 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:36 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Arashi08 wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Arashi08 wrote:
Gummy wrote:Surgery and stuff is still to go, haven't done much yet because of personal stuff but that's about to change.
In any case it shouldn't be relevant, but for the general population I would be male, even if I perceive myself differently.

Also I think I scared away everybody else :D

I'm also transgendered, so it's nice to make your aquaintance :)

Most awkward top evar. Embarassed pale
Wait, 2 trans on 1 forum? What are the odds :P

What kind of trans are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Well there are millions of transgendered people all over the world so the odds aren't THAT low :P

I'm MtF, same as Gummy I assume.
Well based on very loose guess work from google.

14 million transgendered people worldwide.

200 million gamers worldwide.

So already, a very small portion of gamers are transgendered. Also, the majority of Humans tend to be pretty ignorant and have no real desire for rational thought. So only a fraction of transgendered people are going to be rational thinkers, and even less so among the transgendered gamers. That's cutting it down quite a bit. There is 7 billion people on earth, only about 200 or so million are gamers... only a small fraction of Gamers at best are transgendered, and only a small fraction of that group think rationally.

But I just realized that regardless of the odds... among the very small minority of Transgendered, Rational, Gamers. Said people would be attracted to a place like this because it is oriented towards rational Gamers :P

Okay I think im gonna end this conversation with you now...

Suffice it to say there are many aspects of that last post I very much disagree with.
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:51 pm

Arashi08 wrote:
okay I think im gonna end this conversation with you now...
...Ok? Neutral

Just to clarify, I was not saying being transgendered makes someone irrational. I simply meant that the majority of humans are irrational, regardless of Gender, Race, Sexuality, etc. For some reason the majority are idiots, that's just a fact of life >.>

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Arashi08 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:19 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Arashi08 wrote:
okay I think im gonna end this conversation with you now...
...Ok? Neutral

Just to clarify, I was not saying being transgendered makes someone irrational. I simply meant that the majority of humans are irrational, regardless of Gender, Race, Sexuality, etc. For some reason the majority are idiots, that's just a fact of life >.>

Except it isn't. Not really. You are making broad assumptions likely based on the focus on said people in media. I admit that living in America and being a rational person in your own right makes it easy to look at things like Fox News or the government or any of the other things that seem to glorify the ignorance you're referring to and think that these people represent the "majority of humankind." especially when you see the government acting the way it does, but it's kind of a strawman argument in a way because you are assuming that since you believe the majority of people are irrational that the majority of Trans people must also be irrational. that's a certain type of non sequitur, which I believe is called (correct me if I'm wrong) Affirming the Consequent:

1.The majority of people are irrational
2.Transpersons are people.
3.Therefore, the Majority of Transpersons are irrational

Do you see the fallacy of this argument? Even if what you said about the majority of humankind was true (which I don't believe is) your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises you set up. So your conclusion's result is independent from the "truth" in the premises you established, making your argument fallacious. In a way your argument about humanity in general is based on a similar fallacy, so it is just as irrational and ignorant as you claim the majority of people are.

I'm not saying there aren't ignorant, irrational people in the world, because unfortunately there are. However, It is just as ignorant to lump any group people into categories and make assumptions about them when you don't actually know them, especially when you don't understand their history, their demeanor, their environment, or their interactions with people, among other things.

That's all I'm trying to say.
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:33 pm

Arashi08 wrote:
Except it isn't. Not really. You are making broad assumptions likely based on the focus on said people in media. I admit that living in America and being a rational person in your own right makes it easy to look at things like Fox News or the government or any of the other things that seem to glorify the ignorance you're referring to and think that these people represent the "majority of humankind." especially when you see the government acting the way it does, but it's kind of a strawman argument in a way because you are assuming that since you believe the majority of people are irrational that the majority of Trans people must also be irrational. that's a certain type of non sequitur, which I believe is called (correct me if I'm wrong) Affirming the Consequent:

1.The majority of people are irrational
2.Transpersons are people.
3.Therefore, the Majority of Transpersons are irrational

Do you see the fallacy of this argument? Even if what you said about the majority of humankind was true (which I don't believe is) your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises you set up. So your conclusion's result is independent from the "truth" in the premises you established, making your argument fallacious. In a way your argument about humanity in general is based on a similar fallacy, so it is just as irrational and ignorant as you claim the majority of people are.

I'm not saying there aren't ignorant, irrational people in the world, because unfortunately there are. However, It is just as ignorant to lump any group people into categories and make assumptions about them when you don't actually know them, especially when you don't understand their history, their demeanor, their environment, or their interactions with people, among other things.

rThat's all I'm trying to say.
The problem is, you are then suggesting being trans somehow makes a person more likely to be rational. There is no such connection. Furthermore it isn't the media I'm basing it on, I'm not really a person to keep up with the media for anything other than science updates.

Sorry but the majority are religious world-wide, that alone is a good bit of irrationality. As well among the atheists and non-religious, there is also a lot of irrational people as you can see with groups like Atheism+, as well a lot of feminist groups. The majority are religious. Among the minority of non-religious, as I've said is also full of irrational people who still stick to superstition, dogma, etc.

Also might I add how much Trans people are hated world-wide? A vast majority of humans DO hate you, which is highly irrational on their part. Then there is a great example, capitalism. Wherever capitalism is, you can bet your ass there is some person getting screwed over and they are not smart enough to notice, or even worse they ARE smart enough but they irrationally choose to remain in ignorance.

Last but not least, I'm Human... I would know what Human nature is because I am one. I am aware I feel this desire to just stop being skeptical and believe in whatever makes me happy regardless of truth, I am aware I have an inherent desire to be irrational. We may have evolved thinking brains, but we didn't technically evolve them to be rational. I mean, we evolved to ASSUME there is something in the bush regardless of whether or not there is any reason to believe it's not just the wind... because it's safer that way, if you know what I am getting at here.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:38 pm

Also another thing, if it wasn't as I am saying. Then why is it humanity only progresses because a few notable individuals throughout history end up dragging everyone out of the dark ages? Why is it, the Einsteins are pulling all the weight all by themselves practically?

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by lex0r on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:07 pm

Way off topic, guys. That argument will lead to nothing.
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Arashi08 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:13 pm

IronicParticle wrote:Also another thing, if it wasn't as I am saying. Then why is it humanity only progresses because a few notable individuals throughout history end up dragging everyone out of the dark ages? Why is it, the Einsteins are pulling all the weight all by themselves practically?

You are still using a non sequitur to try and prove your point. You're even blatantly misinterpreted what I'm saying. I said that YOUR argumrnt was a fallacy and based on the logic I presented you, it can't be denied that what you said was a fallacy. the logic that the majority of transpeople must be irrational because the majority of people in the world must be irrational is a fallacy, plain and simple, and it does NOT suggest that transpeople are any more or less rational than other people. You are the only one who drew that conclusion, I never presented such a premise. What I was saying is that these generalizations are unsound because you are trying to prove something you can't possibly know. I don't think about issues like this based on categories or groups, I think about them based in individuals and I know that while there are correlations between individuals and groups, that correlation does not prove causation. Everyone's experience is different and they have a different way of looking at things than others even if it is similar, which means outliers in their thinking can still exist. You presented a fallacious argument based on assumptions and no real information to back up your claims whereas I tried to prove that such assumptions are fallacious and unsound, I never once tried to prove that the opposite of your argument was true (aka transpeople are more rational.) you know why? Because I have no idea if transpeople are more of less rational, much the same way you have no way to know that humans are in general irrational and ignorant.


And once again you generalize things. It took alot more people than just Einstein to make an atomic weapon for example, for progress to move forward you need things like funds, sponsors, all around support for progress to advance not to mention he wasn't the only physicist working on the project. Yes there are people glorified in history for being the center of attention around such marvelous achievements but again they couldn't do any of these things by themeselves could they? Our history does highlight specific people who became famous for their achievements in their chosen field, but they don't do it all alone, they have a team behind them and often funds from their government. It's not always like that of course, as yes there are outliers, but again correlation does not prove causation.

And the majority of people hate me? I think you mean they hate transpeople in general cause I can't think of anyone who hates me personally because im transgendered. Besides, even if that were true, I see signs of change, especially in America where things like homosexuality are becoming more accepted than they were back in 2004, mainly because of the media which has alot more characters like that and gives people more insight into that which they didn't understand and therefore makes them more comfortable with it. So maybe humans aren't as naturally irrational as you think?

However, I will agree with you that alot of organized religions are at the forefront of ignorance and irrationality but that rarely has anything to do with the religion itself; it has to do with the powerful people behind it. How many times has the bible been rewritten again? Likewise people aren't by their very nature ignorant and irrational, it seems far more likely that if they are so, that the ones in power are to blame, not the nature of humanity. Those in power may keep information from the common folk, but that doesn't mean that we as a species are by and large irrational and ignorant.

So clearly the world doesn't seem to be as you say it is. Yes there are alot of ignorant people in the world, and we tend to talk about them alot more than we do intelligent, reasonable people. But your argument is still fallacious and not logically sound because you cannot make that assessment without understanding every individual's history and why they became the person they are, and then make the conclusion that all these people are in fact irrational.

For example, I believe that one of the common causalities of human suffering is the want to see, the want to show, and the fear to be seen. I think humans struggle with their natures and the laws that society has placed upon them, they are afraid of themselves and try to repress those aspects of themselves which they are ashamed of but that part of themselves still wants to be expressed and it manifests in alot of negative ways as a result. But again if I were to try and label the entire world based on this assessment it would be fallacious because I don't have enough evidence to support it. I've seen numerous examples of how this train of though does make sense, but at the same time there are people who don't necessarily fall into this pattern, so it is a fallacy to label humanity in this way. Just as it is a fallacy to generalize about humanity and say that the majority of people are ignorant and irrational.
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Arashi08 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:15 pm

Also Lex is right, we clearly have differing opinions on this subject, So I won't pursue it any further. Feel free to respond to me if you wish, but I won't be commenting on this subject again on this thread. If you want we can discuss it over PMs, but I think it's best we get back to topic
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:35 pm

Yeah my bad, sent a PM.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Gummy on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:03 pm

It is assumed that about 1 in 20 people crossdresses and 1 in 50 has strong transgendered feelings. This forum has 475 users, assuming some of them are fakes/smurfs you can estimate 8 people in this forum have such feelings.
About 1 in 200 transition without sex reassignment surgery while 1 in 500 transition with one.
It doesn't matter which level of "intelligence" people have as you can estimate transgendered people to be distributed like any other group, which means the numbers stay about the same. So the chances of a few of us being here are actually pretty high.

[1]


Also hi Arashi! :3
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:12 pm

Gummy wrote:It is assumed that about 1 in 20 people crossdresses and 1 in 50 has strong transgendered feelings. This forum has 475 users, assuming some of them are fakes/smurfs you can estimate 8 people in this forum have such feelings.
About 1 in 200 transition without sex reassignment surgery while 1 in 500 transition with one.
It doesn't matter which level of "intelligence" people have as you can estimate transgendered people to be distributed like any other group, which means the numbers stay about the same. So the chances of a few of us being here are actually pretty high.

[1]


Also hi Arashi! :3
Considering what this poll is about. I don't count people who don't get surgery. As far as I am concerned, the very definition of a transgendered person is someone who had a sex change. Why? Because under the definition that this topic is about, sex is a physical construct, a personality is genderless. I am male because I have a penis, a woman is female because they have a vagina. I am not male due to my personality, a random woman is not female because of her personality.

When I voted as male and when I typed Male, 19... I meant I was born with and still have, a penis. When you put Other, you mean you changed your gender or you were at least none of the other choices.

So when I said it was rare, I was referring to people who had changed their sex with surgery or was in the process of it. Not people who have "transsexual" tendencies. I mean shit, I have transsexual tendencies... but yet I actually don't want a sex change. So I am a male, I am supposed to vote male. besides "feelings" don't decide gender in the first place anyways, since personality is genderless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Prevalence

I do not see anywhere where it mentions "1 in 500 transition with one."... besides, there's definitely not that many, luckily I got the facts to back it up.

The lowest source mentioned was the same one you posted except on Wikipedia it's "1:4,500 male-to-female transsexual people and 1:8,000 female-to-male transsexual people"....

Then we must ask how many gamers there are... and among that, how many of those gamers are trans, and how many of gamers in general are intellectual and actually THINK for themselves. THEN how many of those Gamers, play ME, THEN How many ME gamers would even know about the IT.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Gummy on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:20 pm

Okay you made your case about not knowing what you're talking about, we can get back to topic now.
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:27 pm

Gummy wrote:Okay you made your case about not knowing what you're talking about, we can get back to topic now.
I like how you just claim something without backing it up. I should be saying that about you. Anyways, this topic isn't really about anything... other than Gender. So it's on topic technically. It's main purpose is to get the statistics and to not have to be annoyed at guessing people's genders lol

Though I'd just like to point out, only 2 people on this forum so far are trans. That alone makes it rare, since you know, 2 people does not exactly make something common. Could've sworn you needed more than 2 people, for it to be common. So the results, actually reflect what I am saying.

But what I find funny, is I wasn't wrong. Regardless of how many trans there are, you have to also include how many gamers there are and there isn't THAT many casual players, little alone "true" gamers.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:20 pm

This page made me Picard Facepalm so hard that I hurt my brain. As a result I forgot my age and gender.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by spotlessvoid on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:33 pm

Where's the all of the above option?
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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by BansheeOwnage on Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:12 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:This page made me Picard Facepalm so hard that I hurt my brain. As a result I forgot my age and gender.
Me too.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by Rifneno on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:09 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Gummy wrote:It is assumed that about 1 in 20 people crossdresses and 1 in 50 has strong transgendered feelings. This forum has 475 users, assuming some of them are fakes/smurfs you can estimate 8 people in this forum have such feelings.
About 1 in 200 transition without sex reassignment surgery while 1 in 500 transition with one.
It doesn't matter which level of "intelligence" people have as you can estimate transgendered people to be distributed like any other group, which means the numbers stay about the same. So the chances of a few of us being here are actually pretty high.

[1]


Also hi Arashi! :3
Considering what this poll is about. I don't count people who don't get surgery. As far as I am concerned, the very definition of a transgendered person is someone who had a sex change. Why? Because under the definition that this topic is about, sex is a physical construct, a personality is genderless. I am male because I have a penis, a woman is female because they have a vagina. I am not male due to my personality, a random woman is not female because of her personality.

When I voted as male and when I typed Male, 19... I meant I was born with and still have, a penis. When you put Other, you mean you changed your gender or you were at least none of the other choices.

So when I said it was rare, I was referring to people who had changed their sex with surgery or was in the process of it. Not people who have "transsexual" tendencies. I mean shit, I have transsexual tendencies... but yet I actually don't want a sex change. So I am a male, I am supposed to vote male. besides "feelings" don't decide gender in the first place anyways, since personality is genderless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Prevalence

I do not see anywhere where it mentions "1 in 500 transition with one."... besides, there's definitely not that many, luckily I got the facts to back it up.

The lowest source mentioned was the same one you posted except on Wikipedia it's "1:4,500 male-to-female transsexual people and 1:8,000 female-to-male transsexual people"....

Then we must ask how many gamers there are... and among that, how many of those gamers are trans, and how many of gamers in general are intellectual and actually THINK for themselves. THEN how many of those Gamers, play ME, THEN How many ME gamers would even know about the IT.

Holy shit. How did you manage to squeeze that much bad into one post? I feel like I just read Sevial's autobiography. Okay first of all, like anything to do with sexuality, gender identity is complex. It's not as simple as "whatever you have now is it." For one thing, it may surprise you to find out that doctors won't just turn your penis inside out on a whim. You have to live as the gender you identify as for two years before most doctors will do the surgery. 24/7. And that's assuming you even get the surgery; I recall reading a study saying that most transgendered folk don't get the reassignment surgery at all and simply live as one gender with the "parts" of the other. It's a major surgery with major risks, major costs (you think insurance will pay for that? el oh el!), and their existing relationships may not work with the new stuff. Speaking of costs, the whole thing ends up costing in the six digits. Facial bones need reshaping, breasts need to be put in or taken out, and man, do you know how much electrolysis it takes to rid oneself of male facial hair? The thickest, coarsest hair on the human body? Oh, and pain. Ever been electrocuted a few thousand times? I believe the word is "torture." These are the sorts of things that need to be taken care of before that two year thing. This is why transgendered folks can click whatever box they damn well please when they're on a longer, harder journey than you can fathom.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by BansheeOwnage on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:46 am

Rifneno wrote:
Holy shit. How did you manage to squeeze that much bad into one post? I feel like I just read Sevial's autobiography. Okay first of all, like anything to do with sexuality, gender identity is complex. It's not as simple as "whatever you have now is it." For one thing, it may surprise you to find out that doctors won't just turn your penis inside out on a whim. You have to live as the gender you identify as for two years before most doctors will do the surgery. 24/7. And that's assuming you even get the surgery; I recall reading a study saying that most transgendered folk don't get the reassignment surgery at all and simply live as one gender with the "parts" of the other. It's a major surgery with major risks, major costs (you think insurance will pay for that? el oh el!), and their existing relationships may not work with the new stuff. Speaking of costs, the whole thing ends up costing in the six digits. Facial bones need reshaping, breasts need to be put in or taken out, and man, do you know how much electrolysis it takes to rid oneself of male facial hair? The thickest, coarsest hair on the human body? Oh, and pain. Ever been electrocuted a few thousand times? I believe the word is "torture." These are the sorts of things that need to be taken care of before that two year thing. This is why transgendered folks can click whatever box they damn well please when they're on a longer, harder journey than you can fathom.
This is one of the best posts ever.

Of.

All.

Time.



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*Salute Rif* Banshee

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by DSharrah on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:29 am

BansheeOwnage wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
Holy shit. How did you manage to squeeze that much bad into one post? I feel like I just read Sevial's autobiography. Okay first of all, like anything to do with sexuality, gender identity is complex. It's not as simple as "whatever you have now is it." For one thing, it may surprise you to find out that doctors won't just turn your penis inside out on a whim. You have to live as the gender you identify as for two years before most doctors will do the surgery. 24/7. And that's assuming you even get the surgery; I recall reading a study saying that most transgendered folk don't get the reassignment surgery at all and simply live as one gender with the "parts" of the other. It's a major surgery with major risks, major costs (you think insurance will pay for that? el oh el!), and their existing relationships may not work with the new stuff. Speaking of costs, the whole thing ends up costing in the six digits. Facial bones need reshaping, breasts need to be put in or taken out, and man, do you know how much electrolysis it takes to rid oneself of male facial hair? The thickest, coarsest hair on the human body? Oh, and pain. Ever been electrocuted a few thousand times? I believe the word is "torture." These are the sorts of things that need to be taken care of before that two year thing. This is why transgendered folks can click whatever box they damn well please when they're on a longer, harder journey than you can fathom.
This is one of the best posts ever.

Of.

All.

Time.



Badger
*Salute Rif* Banshee

Double that salute soldier!

*Salute*

*Salute*

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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:34 am

Wow, well said, Rif. Couldn't agree more.

Also:

/debate


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Re: Gender?(poll)

Post by BansheeOwnage on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:07 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Wow, well said, Rif. Couldn't agree more.

Also:

/debate

I like that last part.

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Re: Gender?(poll)

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