The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

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The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by Arian Dynas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:41 am

Now, don't get me wrong; I adored this movie, I loved it, I even liked a few of the changes.

But there are 8 that really stick in my craw.

1. Gandalf's involvement with the trolls - I didn't much like the fact that Gandalf was so... hands off with the trolls. In the book he imitated their voices to keep them talking and arguing, in fact, it seems less like an argument between them than anything else. I don't mind Bilbo playing for time, but Gandalf should have been a bit more involved.

2. The lack of any kind of conversation with Gahawhir, the Lord of the Eagles; he was at least a character Gandalf had a conversation with in the story; he just keeps being used as a prop. I don't like that. Angry

3. The complete lack of even a passing reference to "Fifteen Birds in Five Fir Trees".

4. I don't think the word "goblin" was used at any point in the entire movie; yeah I know Orcs and Goblins are just different names for the same thing but still; Azog THE GOBLIN, the GREAT GOBLIN, there IS an expectation here.

5. The fact that Bilbo kills two things in the movie with Sting; a Warg and an Orc. It is called "Sting; The Spider's Bane!" for a reason! It's first kill in his hands was that of a spider attempting to eat him. It cheapens the meaning and significance of Sting.

6. The complete omission of what happened to Thrain, who had actually died in the Dungeons of the Necromancer, who Gandalf knew of BEFORE the quest, having found Thrain there, heard his last words and accepted the key, giving him reason to find Thorin and begin the quest.

And, here it is; the big one, number 8; Azog the motherfucking goblin. By all rights, and by story means he SHOULD be dead and buried 30 years prior to the events of this; and to go with it; the complete re-writing of what happened to Thror.

What happened, for those not in the know, is that Thror went to Moria in an attempt to reclaim it; alone. He was found in the armory of one of the lower halls, where Azog decried him as a thief and a beggar, tortured him for two days, and then, when it was found another dwarf; Nain, was outside, waiting for the return of his king, Azog carved his name into Thror's forehead and threw his body over the wall to taunt Nain. After hacking Thror to bits and throwing the pieces to the crows when Nain saw the body, and Azog's name carved into the king's skull, the goblins threw a sack of small-change at him as a final insult, throwing such a paltry amount of gold, as though he were indeed nothing more than a beggar at the door.

Following that, the dwarves, their ire raised, formed an army and assaulted Moria, as well as the rest of the Misty mountains in a long campaign; one which came to a climactic finish wherein Thrain, Thorin's father, and Thorin himself were gathered, Thorin earned his name, Oakenshield at the same battle, for the same reasons, Azog was slain and beheaded there by Dain II Ironfoot, Thorin's cousin, future King Under the Mountain, and his head stuffed in the same sack of gold Nain, Dain's father, had brought back from Moria. Nain was killed by Azog in the same battle.

I would not have had a problem with them being hunted during the whole thing, for the most part, I was OK with it, but, the fact is they could have used a generic orc, or, hell, even Bolg himself, sans Bodyguard would have been acceptable, but with Azog alive, there is no reason for Bolg to be the one leading the Goblin armies, yes, I'm sure that Azog will be killed later on, but as it stands, this just got in my craw and stuck there.

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Re: The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by Master Blaster on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:16 pm

Well since they are making two more movies, maybe they will reveal all of this later. I actually liked the movie. Not everything will be the same, and just like the lord of the rings the exstended cut they will do the same for the Hobbit.

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Re: The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by The Math Effect on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:24 pm

Gripe 7. There will be 3 movies total
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Re: The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by Arian Dynas on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:15 am

Like I said Masster, I LIKED the movie, I still enjoyed myself, even three of the changes they made I liked better than the book; Bilbo signing the contract before he ran out the door, rather than Gandalf having to come back and get him, seeing the thrush flying by, and having Bilbo have more personal doubts, and a greater interaction, that and the greater characterization for ALL the characters.

It's just Azog really stuck in my craw.

As for three films, considering they're drawing on the Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales and the Appendicies, I have no problem with it; really the Hobbit IS in 3 parts; the Journey to Mirkwood, everything from Mirkwood up to defeating Smaug, and then the effects of Smaug's death, and the Battle of the Five Armies; that's 3 parts there, and it DOES feel natural to me.

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Re: The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by BleedingUranium on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 am

Arian Dynas wrote:3. The complete lack of even a passing reference to "Fifteen Birds in Five Fir Trees".

6. The complete omission of what happened to Thrain, who had actually died in the Dungeons of the Necromancer, who Gandalf knew of BEFORE the quest, having found Thrain there, heard his last words and accepted the key, giving him reason to find Thorin and begin the quest.

And, here it is; the big one, number 8; Azog the motherfucking goblin. By all rights, and by story means he SHOULD be dead and buried 30 years prior to the events of this; and to go with it; the complete re-writing of what happened to Thror.

What happened, for those not in the know, is that Thror went to Moria in an attempt to reclaim it; alone. He was found in the armory of one of the lower halls, where Azog decried him as a thief and a beggar, tortured him for two days, and then, when it was found another dwarf; Nain, was outside, waiting for the return of his king, Azog carved his name into Thror's forehead and threw his body over the wall to taunt Nain. After hacking Thror to bits and throwing the pieces to the crows when Nain saw the body, and Azog's name carved into the king's skull, the goblins threw a sack of small-change at him as a final insult, throwing such a paltry amount of gold, as though he were indeed nothing more than a beggar at the door.

Following that, the dwarves, their ire raised, formed an army and assaulted Moria, as well as the rest of the Misty mountains in a long campaign; one which came to a climactic finish wherein Thrain, Thorin's father, and Thorin himself were gathered, Thorin earned his name, Oakenshield at the same battle, for the same reasons, Azog was slain and beheaded there by Dain II Ironfoot, Thorin's cousin, future King Under the Mountain, and his head stuffed in the same sack of gold Nain, Dain's father, had brought back from Moria. Nain was killed by Azog in the same battle.

I would not have had a problem with them being hunted during the whole thing, for the most part, I was OK with it, but, the fact is they could have used a generic orc, or, hell, even Bolg himself, sans Bodyguard would have been acceptable, but with Azog alive, there is no reason for Bolg to be the one leading the Goblin armies, yes, I'm sure that Azog will be killed later on, but as it stands, this just got in my craw and stuck there.

3. What's that?

6. That is in, kind of. Watch the first trailer again, there are a bunch of scenes of Gandalf in Dol Guldur, even one of him fighting Thrain. Also, Bilbo looking at the shards of Narsil. I'm 100% sure these will either be in the extended edition or moved to part 2, since I'm betting some stuff got moved when they decided it'd be three parts.

8. That is odd, but I'm not really bothered by it. It helps show Thorin's overconfidence, and how his hold on the past is a weakness (like the grudge with the Elves), and gives this section an antagonist.

Thror's fate wasn't totally rewritten, just rolled into one event, the key points are still there. Azog simply kills him during the battle, as opposed to before. I know the reason for the battle was Thror's death, but just trying to retake Moria doesn't exactly seem OOC. They probably also want to save Dain for part 3, as Dwaling mentioned that he wouldn't help them (though not by name). On that note, Balin and Thorin's talk in Bag End about their group, how they're not warriors and are all diverse, and the importance of loyalty very much reminded me of ME's squadmates.
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Re: The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by Andromidius on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:39 am

Most of the rewritten stuff didn't bother me, or actually improved the story.

That being said, the movie could have done with being about 30 minutes longer. No doubt we'll get that from the inevitable extended edition.

The Eagles not talking might have been a blessing in disguise - if the animation looked awful, it would have ruined the end of the movie! So perhaps they were playing it a bit safe. Still, if they got it right I'd have been thrilled. Maybe in the extended edition? /fingerscrossed

Bilbo killing two things didn't bother me too much. He was shown to be completely hopeless in a fight, and only survived due to being nimble and lucky.

Azog chasing them? Well, the story needed an antagonist. And I know Bolg is in the next movie, so perhaps they wanted to set up his reason for chasing the Dwarves and seiging the Lonely Mountain by having us set up his father more and then have him killed early-mid next movie? Considering the CGI was pretty amazing, I'll forgive this as a necessary change.

That being said, I have a few minor gripes:

1/ Reusing the terrain from Rohan. I know a field is a field, but still - looked exactly the same! Also the sudden change from the rocky fields to a gorge with Rivendale was a little jarring - maybe it'll be fixed with an extra scene from the extended edition (showing them travel through that cravis for a bit longer?).

2/ Thorin gets badly wounded, knocked for six. Moment he's dropped off by the Eagles he seems only a bit winded and dazed. I also think that final scene could have been a little more subdued, with a quiet moment of respect between him and Bilbo rather then a full-blown gushing manhug. But audiences do love that.

3/ Thorin looks too young. He should have at least had greying hair (in the book he's the oldest by a good margin - I understand that a female audience needs some estrogen bait, so I'll forgive).

4/ Slightly less over the top falling scenes. While amusing, it was a bit silly falling hundreds of feet on a disintegrating wooden bridge without suffering any injuries.

Otherwise... I think everything else was fine, or really brilliant.
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Re: The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by BleedingUranium on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:54 am

Andromidius wrote:I also think that final scene could have been a little more subdued, with a quiet moment of respect between him and Bilbo rather then a full-blown gushing manhug. But audiences do love that.
.

I did! That part got to me, I'll admit. Though it comes second to Bilbo's talk about the Dwarves not having a home, and saying he'll help them get it back if he can. Crying
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Re: The Hobbit - Gripes [Beware of the Evil Spoilers]

Post by Andromidius on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:58 am

BleedingUranium wrote:
Andromidius wrote:I also think that final scene could have been a little more subdued, with a quiet moment of respect between him and Bilbo rather then a full-blown gushing manhug. But audiences do love that.
.

I did! That part got to me, I'll admit. Though it comes second to Bilbo's talk about the Dwarves not having a home, and saying he'll help them get it back if he can. Crying

I liked that part too.
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