Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

IronicParticle wrote:"That doesn't make sense at all. The writers are establishing that theme for a reason. You're supposed to have learned something from that, and use that knowledge later in the story. What is the point of establishing all that, only to simply throw it out the window in the next game? Does not compute IMO, sorry."

I've yet to see thannix cannons go wrong, at worst I could see Peace being ruined by the code, but not something so drastically mindfucking to the players that it kills off the Quarians anyways. Because that would mean you never had the chance at saving both at the same time, which doesn't make sense as there is always a way.

But see, that's my point. Thanix cannons are reverse engineered. The Reaper code is not.

IronicParticle wrote:"That analogy doesn't work at all."

Uploading the code is simply a risky move that has great benefits. So if it goes wrong, then it's simply a child's mistake. That's why the comparision is valid, because you don't punish your child for their mistakes... you help them learn from it so they don't do it again and you protect them, you don't spank them... little alone kill them. If any harm should come to them, it's mostly the Galaxy's fault for bad parenting.

This is not a case of children making mistakes. This is about a friend who willingly joins the enemy, and that enemy then rewrites your friend's brain, so he no longer thinks the same. Subsequently, your friend now wants to use technology that will give the enemy control over him.

The way I see it, Legion has been indoctrinated, and he doesn't even know it. Allowing the upload now is jeopardizing everything you've tried to accomplish, not to mention endangering all your allies.

IronicParticle wrote:"and refuse gets the entire galaxy killed." You have to think about what Shepard's resolve is and he would not be willing to do Synthesis so it's undeniable that he has a limit to how much he will sacrifice.

If everyone dies, it's not Shepard's fault.. it's the Reapers'. However in Destroy this is not the case, because Shepard is the one sacrifing an entire Species' and a friend's Life, Freedom and Hope. It'd be fine if Shepard couldn't possibly try to find another way, but he isn't even trying. Unless you pick Refuse. Consent isn't all you need in order to be justified in a sacrifice, you also need to make sure there is no other way.

Ultimately, Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers... and that's why I support Destroy. But at what cost? I mean regardless of Shepard's resolve, if I was in his shoes I'd rather die saying I tried the right thing... it's not my fault if everyone dies in that scenario because I did my best to do what was right. Heck Destroy definitely cannot be right even if it is Shepard's resolve, because extinction should come before we give up what is most important. If we live into the future based on an inhumane decision, then nothing is saved IMHO.

I disagree. Sometimes 'doing the right thing' is not what it takes to survive. Sometimes 'doing the right thing' is dooming everyone else to extinction.

The morally right thing won't always save you. Sticking to your morals to the point where you doom the entire galaxy to extinction is foolishness, IMO.

If Hackett hadn't sacrificed one of his fleets, so the other two could escape the Reapers, all three fleets would have been obliterated.

The game makes it a point to tell you that you can't always save everyone:

Garrus: If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen.

Garrus: I'm starting to understand why the galaxy needs cold hearted dictators every now and then.
Shepard: They get things done?
Garrus: They don't give a damn about the consequences.
Garrus: Suppose that's what it's going to take, Shepard, the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die, so twenty billion over there live.
Garrus: Are we up for that? Are you?
Shepard (Renegade): If all life in the galaxy vanishes because we hesitate, what choice do we have?

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
James: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.
James: Yeah. Did you know that before you joined the N7?
Shepard: Yeah, that's why I was asked. There's not a single N7 that hasn't sacrificed, either themselves or their soldiers.

Javik: You should have not have let the Turian soldier evade his responsibility.
Shepard: I take it Protheans didn't forgive many mistakes?
Javik: If we would have been under my command, I would have marooned him in the desert, buried him in the sand up to his neck, and let the wildlife feast upon his eyes. If he survived that, I would have rewarded him. By shooting him in the head. Good soldiers are a precious resource. The stupidity of one can not be allowed to jeopardize the lives of others.

Liara: What if we're too late? My people are dying down there.
Javik: Your empathy is a weakness. You must numb yourself to loss.
Shepard: Benezia took you to this temple?
Liara: I was just a child. I thought it was a history lesson. But now? Maybe there was more to it.
Shepard: What do you mean?
Liara: I went digging through her old files. She had heavily encrypted records on this place, some dating back centuries. I still can't crack most of them. Whatever's going on, it's well hidden.
Javik: I've studied your old mission reports. Your mother was indoctrinated.
Liara: Yes. We had to kill her.
Javik: Yet it did not stop you from fighting. As I said, steel yourself. Many more lives will be lost.
Shepard (renegade): I know it's difficult, Liara, but he's right. You could spend all day counting casualties.
Javik: When you should be avenging them.
Liara: I'm sorry, I can't be that callous.
Javik: (long pause) War doesn't always provide you a choice.

Lt. Victus: Commander Shepard. My men and I are in your debt. Thank you for saving so many.
Shepard: What happened here?
Soldier: He screwed up!
Lt. Victus: Stand down, soldier.
Soldier: These men are dead because of him!
Lt. Victus: I said: stand down.
Shepard: Hey! I just saved all your asses, so everyone just calm down. Lieutenant, what's going on here?
Lt. Victus: I made a bad call. This is all on me. I chose caution and clever tactics over a head-on attack, and... my men paid the price. (...) We could see on holo that Reaper forces were blocking our intended path--staying on course guaranteed heavy casualties. So I chose a safer route, skirting the enemy, and that took us low and through these ruins. When we encountered resistance, there was no room to maneuver. Suddenly, we were in a fight for our lives. A lot of my men lost that fight.
Shepard: Making hard decisions and dealing with the consequences--that's what being a leader is about.
Lt. Victus: You're right, Commander. Our mission is still a failure. When we've stabilized the injured, we'll head back to the fleet.
Shepard: You're abandoning your mission?
Lt. Victus: We're down over thirty men! It would be suicide.
Shepard: What exactly did you come here to do?
Lt. Victus: There's a bomb on the planet. We were sent to defuse it.
Shepard: A bomb? How big?
Lt. Victus: Enormous. Cerberus has it.
Shepard: Lieutenant, if Cerberus has that bomb, you have to finish your mission.
Lt. Victus: Haven't these men sacrificed enough?
Shepard: Sacrifice is what we sign on for. They know that, and so should you.
Lt. Victus: My men have lost hope, Commander. Even if I wanted to finish the mission, they don't.
Shepard: It's your job to make them want to.
Lt. Victus: How?
Shepard: What's wrong with you? Inspire them! Threaten them! Lieutenant, if Cerberus succeeds, the Reapers divide and conquer us, and then that is on them.
Lt. Victus: Listen up! This isn't about your fears and grievances!
Soldier: Fears? We're only afraid of the next messed up order you give.
Lt. Victus: Irrelevant! Court martial, death and dishonour awaits anyone who balks at his duty. We are Turian! We finish what we came here to do, or we die trying.
(...)
Shepard: Victus, I've given you a second chance. Don't screw this up.

Salarian councilor: Sometimes spectres have to make sacrifices. I hope you're ready to do that when the time comes.

Shepard: People will die, but we will fight your regardless. We will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find another way.

Shepard: It's hard enough you're fighting a war, but it's even worse knowing that no matter how hard you try, you can't save them all.

IronicParticle wrote:"as you are changing the way someone thinks. The person who used to think otherwise, ceases to exist." The guy in my picture changed the way I think, I guess he murdered me, right? No, change of opinion is not the death of you because you are not your beliefs, etc. The ONLY thing YOU are, is the self awareness in the brain. There is the subconscious, and then there is you, the subconscious stores information, memories, etc and you make conclusions based on said information, etc. What that conclusion is, is called opinions, belief systems, etc.

You are not the conclusions you make.

"If I force you to the ground, and you don't resist, I'm still forcing you." This is a fallacy I believe, not sure which one. But basically that statement is a contradiction.

By the very definition of force, you must be working against a form of resistence. Even if it was considered force, it's just as much force as someone changing your mind by making a good argument in a debate. I don't know how many times I've changed my mind over the course of my life, but I've always been me regardless of opinion.

Now reritting is wrong but not for the reason you seem to think. Take Rape for example, it's not necessarily the force that is wrong about it... it's all about the consent. If the person is unconscious of their own accord for example, there is no force involved. However you still LACK consent, if a person is awake and they say NO and you go against that, then it's force. Force AGAINST consent, right? However if they aren't even aware of the sex, then they simply LACK consent, thus there is no force involved. It's no less wrong though, because it is all about consent not force.

Convincing someone with good arguments is not the same thing as rewriting someone's brain. Reaper indoctrination can rewrite an organic's neural pathways, physically changing the way someone thinks and arrives at conclusions. What the Reapers did to the Geth is exactly like that, only it's much easier to rewrite synthetics, as it's all code.

Even if the Geth agreed to letting the Reapers rewrite them, that doesn't change the fact that they are now thinking in ways that will benefit the enemy.

IronicParticle wrote:"From what I've noticed, it seems to me like most people simply don't want this to be true. They're proud of having done all the right things in order to be able to make peace. They want to trust synthetics, they want to prove that synthetics and organics can co-exist, and I feel exactly the same way, BUT..."

Well I hope you don't think that's my position, because that isn't. I am almost to the point of outright accepting shit WILL hit the fan. But I'd rather do everything I can to protect my children, I'd die protecting them. If the Quarians are even at risk, it's their duty as parents of the Geth.

"At least consider the fact that Legion gives that whole speach about achieving your own future for a reason."

I am not close minded, to the contrary I am as open minded as can be. I'm so open minded, when I debate like we are right now.. I not only put myself in your shoes, I also give the benefit of the doubt that your premise is true.

The premise in this case? The Geth have been corrupted. Even if this was an absolute truth, my decision is that I STILL lack a justification good enough. The right thing to do is to protect our children, if that kills us then so be it because as "parents" that's our duty.

Edit: Damn... Walls, walls everywhere!

I will not deny that killing the Geth is a very dubious decision. Much like the ending, it seems a case of morality versus practicality.

I think if we want to win this war, we need to avoid the mistakes of the past cycles.

Main problem I see is both sides of the argument are right, at least to a certain degree.

Its pretty frustrating when there's no clear cut answer to a situation or potential problem.

An interesting potential situation in ME4 could be based around this choice.

1/ If you side with the Quarians and destroy the Geth, the Quarians begin to dabble with AI again and recreate the Geth.

2/ If you side with the Geth and let the Quarians die, the Geth's morality may be blackened and they come out of the experience a colder and more brutal race.

3/ If you get both to work together, the Quarians learn that the Geth weren't a mistake and just needed to be nurtured and the Geth learn the values of morality and become more benevolent.

Regardless, the Reaper codes play some role - becomes a benefit if they are cared for and valued, but twisting them into a more evil race if they aren't.

Andromidius wrote:Regardless, the Reaper codes play some role - becomes a benefit if they are cared for and valued, but twisting them into a more evil race if they aren't.

Really?

I find that hard to believe. Then you're basically saying the Reaper code will not backfire as long as you're nice to synthetics. The Reaper code will do what it does regardless.

Kind of reminds me of those military leaders on Earth who act against their own people 'to prevent loose cannons from provoking the Reapers'.

The Reapers are masters at getting everything done in the name of peace:

EDI: Admiral Anderson reports that the Reapers on Earth are broadcasting orders. They are demanding human leaders enter their superstructures in order to, "Negotiate peace."
Shepard: Anybody aboard a Reaper is gonna be indoctrinated.
EDI: Exactly. This is a ruse to pacify the populace during that process. Citizens who are busy waiting, are not busy fighting. It is likely that the governments of Earth will soon enact laws punishing those who attack the Reaper occupiers. Again, this will be done in the name of peace.

No, what I mean is the way the Geth view Organics could influence how they use the code. If they don't care about Organics they may consider it 'perfect' already. If they see Organics as equals, they may alter the code further to make better use of it.

Think of it more alone the lines of EDI deciding she was going to alter her own programming to account for everything she's learned about the value of life.

I see what you mean now. But I think it's more likely the Reaper code will use the Geth, not vice versa.

Actually reverse engineering has more inevitable issues than using Reaper technology. You must earn every bit of progress on your own accord, the consequences for cheating progress are never trivial. In fact the consequences for such a thing usually tends to reach a danger factor equivalent to an apocalypse.

However it's possible that Thanix canons were already within our technological capabilities in the ME universe when Thanix canons were discovered. Anyways, point is that reverse engineered progress is bad.

"This is not a case of children making mistakes."

Wrong, synthetics are our children.... Technically synthetics are simply man made life, that includes any organic life that is man made. Not to mention it IS theoretically possible for machine-based life to come about by natural causes, even if unlikely.

Technically there should be a term for "Creators" and Synthetics. "Creators" being life that came about by natural processes, and Synthetics being life that was created by other life. Anyways Legion is your child, so are his people, what they have to endure... you have to protect them from. That is your duty as their parent.

"I disagree..."

I'd hate to insult you, but are you evil? Do you lack morality? I mean at least RECOGNIZE DEATH IS PREFERABLE TO SLAVERY. When I said "If we live into the future based on an inhumane decision, then nothing is saved IMHO." I meant that we would be monsters from then on. Do we live as evil twisted monsters? Or do we die morally good people?

In fact if you lack values, then I would have no quarrels with insulting you. So do you have morals and values? It's not foolishness if you ask WHAT MATTERS in life. What matters? Is it food, gold? Physical yet meaningless things? Or is it people, and the quality of life people have?

Let me ask you: If you believe it's foolish, then why are the Reapers wrong? What right do you have to judge them?

"The game makes it a point to tell you that you can't always save everyone"

It doesn't say killing a 1000 babies is a justified means to success, does it? I could find loads of instances where the narrative supports that there is a limit to sacrifice. Let me ask you, save them from what? Oh right the REAPERS. The reason you can't save everyone is not because YOU HAVE TO MURDER PEOPLE, it's because the Reapers themselves are doing it.


"Even if the Geth agreed to letting the Reapers rewrite them, that doesn't change the fact that they are now thinking in ways that will benefit the enemy."

Irrelevant to this part of the argument, your argument was that it killed them. It doesn't kill them so you were wrong.

"I will not deny that killing the Geth is a very dubious decision. Much like the ending, it seems a case of morality versus practicality.

I think if we want to win this war, we need to avoid the mistakes of the past cycles."

WHAT MISTAKES? The only mistakes I am aware of, was that they were too cold hearted. Javik's cycle was full of unnecessarily blowing up stars, sacrificing children to appease the Reapers, etc. They were an exact manifestation of the purest "practicality", and they are extinct. They were monsters, and they even died monsters. You cannot possibly compare our Galaxy in Refuse to them as they died monsters, we did not.

The mistake is sacrificing our Humanity... not the species, but what made us who we are, the same thing that made us survive for so long.

Did you know humanity was down to about a thousand or so, nearing extinction in Africa long ago? Many hold this idea that there is aspects that we Humans have that are irrational, however those same "irrational" aspects we have are the reason we all exist today. We are now at the top of the food chain, the children of Sol. To call it "impractical" is laughable, you just need to know how to use it.

IronicParticle, I don't need to resort to condescension or ad hominems to get my point across, so I think neither should you. In fact, it makes your argument look weaker.

My morality in real life has nothing to do with this. I'm just trying to interpret the story within the context, themes and narrative of the game itself.

I do not think an army general is evil for sacrificing a portion of his troops to save the rest of them. These things shouldn't be done lightly, but that goes without saying. Sometimes there is just no other way.

If I would be an immoral person, I would simply be going 'lol kill all the stupid robots, organics FTW'.

Like I have explained before, if I wasn't struggling with this question, I wouldn't have made a topic about it.

I honestly think you're getting a little too worked up about this whole deal, typing in caps, and generally being a little disrespectful. You continuously seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, and it's almost as if you're subtly pushing my buttons.

I think it's better to agree to disagree at this point.

Also for the record EDI is using Reaper code on a regular basis through the Reaper IFF. Her specific describtion is that the IFF is constantly evolving and changing forcing her to keep the original around if we wnat to stay hidden.

That is an example of Reaper tech in an unaltered state beeing used without a visible drawback.

Not to mention EDI was most likely made using Reaper tech.

Yes, I'll admit I have trouble fitting EDI into all of this.

I do trust her, but that doesn't mean some of the things she says do not worry me sometimes.

But I suppose that's another topic altogether.

One of the conversations with EDI is very interesting, I posted it in Mark III, back on BSN. Maybe I'll make a topic for it.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Also for the record EDI is using Reaper code on a regular basis through the Reaper IFF. Her specific describtion is that the IFF is constantly evolving and changing forcing her to keep the original around if we wnat to stay hidden.

That is an example of Reaper tech in an unaltered state beeing used without a visible drawback.

Not to mention EDI was most likely made using Reaper tech.

She said she was constructed from fragments of Sovereign.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yes, I'll admit I have trouble fitting EDI into all of this.

I do trust her, but that doesn't mean some of the things she says do not worry me sometimes.

But I suppose that's another topic altogether.

One of the conversations with EDI is very interesting, I posted it in Mark III, back on BSN. Maybe I'll make a topic for it.

I would say alot of conversations with EDI are interesting, perhaps the most interesting as they form a large part of the backbone against the Catalyst by showing us just what a AI with the right people to guide it can evolve towards. One of my favorite lines is still when Shepard says:

"Looks like you have found a little humanity EDI, is it worth fighting for?" - Shepard

"To the death!" - EDI

But largely I would say I trust Legion as much as EDI. EDI is handling Reaper code constantly and is made from repurposed Reaper technology without any (shown) negative side effects. I trust that Legion knows as much about what he is doing with the code as EDI does.

@DD: Technically any insults would be seperate from the argument, I acknowledge they'd be irrelevant. To me, it'd be more of a "reaction" so I don't understand what you mean by "resort to". But I never did anyways, did I? I always give people the benefit of the doubt that they are good people. Saren? Sick asshole. Shepard? Hero. It's a reaction, not an argument. Like a gag reflex lol

"Sometimes there is just no other way"

But you can't say that if you don't TRY. That's the point, you choose Destroy regardless of whether or not it is the only way. Not trying... is worse than failure, at least in this case.

"Like I have explained before, if I wasn't struggling with this question, I wouldn't have made a topic about it."

I know that, I've been listening, or do you think I am just blocking out everything you say? It's why I thought we were having this debate in the first place. We are trying to see who can use logic, reason and empathy to find out what is seemingly the right choice.

"I honestly think you're getting a little too worked up about this whole deal, typing in caps, and generally being a little disrespectful. You continuously seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, and it's almost as if you're subtly pushing my buttons."

Caps lock is not a digital form of shouting, if it was then that is some pretty monotonous shouting lol I personally use it to emphasize the words... not make it seem like I'm angry or whatever. Much like most people use italics for the same thing, it saves time just to caps lock it. Nor would I like it if you start going down THAT road, being a long time BSN Indoctrination lurker I can't even remember how many times people on there would suddenly FEEL like someone was subtly trolling when they weren't -_-

"My morality in real life has nothing to do with this."

No but morality in general does, since these choices heavily rely on morality. Now like I said, I never assumed you to be evil nor do I now. So sorry if I sounded hostile.

IronicParticle wrote:But you can't say that if you don't TRY. That's the point, you choose Destroy regardless of whether or not it is the only way. Not trying... is worse than failure, at least in this case.

See, at this point, the whole debate is more about the ending choices than the Quarian/Geth situation, but I'll explain my POV anyway.

Control and synthesis are simply no options for me, as they respectively represent what TIM and Saren, both indoctrinated villains, would do. That leaves destroy as the only other option, which is also what I set out to do. Destroying the Reapers is my mission. There were only three choices before the EC, and I must say the addition of refuse hasn't really changed my mind. Refusing is abandoning the mission. Shepard doesn't have the luxury of trying an option, then reloading his savegame if it doesn't work out the way (s)he wants to. (S)he has to choose there and then, and can't afford to gamble.

For me, the whole indoctrination attempt is rather clear:

The Reapers are simply exploiting the human weakness of always wanting to save everyone.

The dreams prepare you for this. In the dreams, you're hearing voices of dead companions, and you're chasing a child who, no matter how hard you try to help him, will always burn before your eyes. It's about reminding you of, and making you feel guilty about the people you couldn't save.

All of this is preparing you for the ending, where the Reapers are trying to sway you from the option that is least favourable to them, by telling you that your friends will die, if you choose it.

What's the number one reason non-destroyers pick their endings? They don't want to sacrifice EDI and the Geth. They want to save everyone. The Reapers are simply exploiting the human weakness of always wanting to save everyone (or at least as many as possible).

But the game (through dialogues with your squad mates) teaches you time and again that that is not always the best course of action. I already gave some examples for that in an earlier post.

The key is understanding that you can't always win and save everyone at the same time. As a military leader, sometimes you need to make the hard choices and sacrifice the few to save the many.

Aria: Nyreen's code of ethics won't let her sit by if civilians are exposed. It's what makes her utterly predictable and easy to manipulate.

The Reapers are extremely cunning and manipulative. They have brainwashed countless cycles' leaders into begging to be harvested. They do this by twisting your perception. They know how to manipulate organics, and humans are easy to manipulate either by a promise of power or by a promise of eternal peace and no more dead pals.

And that's how Bioware manipulates the player. They condition us to care for these characters, they reward us all throughout three games for choosing paragon options that create peace and harmony and ensure everybody survives. The whole point of the suicide mission was to keep as many people alive as possible. Even Omega rewards us for taking the paragon route at the reactor: even though we are prepared to sacrifice Aria and Nyreen for the many people of Omega, we can save everyone!

And then we come at the end, and it's a whole different ball game. These guys are ancient, savagely intelligent. They can influence the way our brains work in ways we don't even know. Don't even think to underestimate them. Go along with their suggestions, and you'll be in for a hell of a surprise:

Soldier: But converting other life forms into Reapers... I can't wrap my head around that.
Garrus: Makes sense to me. It ensures you never run out of cannon fodder. Eliminates any local resistance. And for every soldier you add, your enemy loses two: the one you converted, and his buddy on the other side who can't pull the trigger on a friend. (...)
Soldier: But the Reapers want to destroy us.
Garrus: And I have no intention of letting them. But If you don't respect your enemy's capabilities, you're in for one nasty surprise after another.

In refuse, you no longer want to destroy the Reapers, because you accept the catalyst's assertion that your friends will die if you choose destroy. You accept the catalyst's assertion that 'the chaos will come back'. In destroy, you reject those assertions, and even though there may be conflict again, organics and synthetics will get a chance to work it out on their own terms.

So in short, when confronted with a Reaper overlord, I'm not willing to take any chances. Refuse is a huge gamble, and I will not be emotionally manipulated into abandoning my mission. I'll just do what I came to do.

This whole explanation isn't meant to debate the ending choices, it's just meant to explain my perspective.

However, none of this is really relevant to the topic at hand. The question whether or not to allow the upload of the Reaper code is a very different one.

Raistlin Majere wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yes, I'll admit I have trouble fitting EDI into all of this.

I do trust her, but that doesn't mean some of the things she says do not worry me sometimes.

But I suppose that's another topic altogether.

One of the conversations with EDI is very interesting, I posted it in Mark III, back on BSN. Maybe I'll make a topic for it.

I would say alot of conversations with EDI are interesting, perhaps the most interesting as they form a large part of the backbone against the Catalyst by showing us just what a AI with the right people to guide it can evolve towards. One of my favorite lines is still when Shepard says:

"Looks like you have found a little humanity EDI, is it worth fighting for?" - Shepard

"To the death!" - EDI

But largely I would say I trust Legion as much as EDI. EDI is handling Reaper code constantly and is made from repurposed Reaper technology without any (shown) negative side effects. I trust that Legion knows as much about what he is doing with the code as EDI does.

There's a big difference for me though.

EDI's 'evolution' is a natural one, she is like a child growing up.

The Geth, on the other hand, abandon their core principles and ideals, willingly join the enemy on more than one occasion, and Legion lies to you three times in a row, all to be able to use the Reaper code upgrades.

Not quite so trustworthy as EDI.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Raistlin Majere wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yes, I'll admit I have trouble fitting EDI into all of this.

I do trust her, but that doesn't mean some of the things she says do not worry me sometimes.

But I suppose that's another topic altogether.

One of the conversations with EDI is very interesting, I posted it in Mark III, back on BSN. Maybe I'll make a topic for it.

I would say alot of conversations with EDI are interesting, perhaps the most interesting as they form a large part of the backbone against the Catalyst by showing us just what a AI with the right people to guide it can evolve towards. One of my favorite lines is still when Shepard says:

"Looks like you have found a little humanity EDI, is it worth fighting for?" - Shepard

"To the death!" - EDI

But largely I would say I trust Legion as much as EDI. EDI is handling Reaper code constantly and is made from repurposed Reaper technology without any (shown) negative side effects. I trust that Legion knows as much about what he is doing with the code as EDI does.

There's a big difference for me though.

EDI's 'evolution' is a natural one, she is like a child growing up.

The Geth, on the other hand, abandon their core principles and ideals, willingly join the enemy on more than one occasion, and Legion lies to you three times in a row, all to be able to use the Reaper code upgrades.

Not quite so trustworthy as EDI.

I am sorry but when does Legion lie? I remember him beeing hesitant about telling you about the code, but not outright lying.

Also the Heretics principals and ideals were not the same as the Geth, else thwy would not have joined Sovereign on the offer he made. The scond time they join them is spurred on by fear and desperation as without intervention the Quarians would have wiped them out. It is still a stupid decision, no doubt about that, but it is not motivated by evil or a desire to abandon their ways, but a knowledge that if they dont accept the Reapers offer they are going to get wiped out.

That is why I theorize Legion might have realized based on his expeirences that the Geth need upgrades, a better self awareness on an indvidual level if they are to not walk into the same mistakes they made in the past again. And to prevent the Quarians from turning upon them the moment the Reaper war is over.

Raistlin Majere wrote:I am sorry but when does Legion lie? I remember him beeing hesitant about telling you about the code, but not outright lying.

- Legion withholds information from Shepard three times:

1. When not telling Shepard that (s)he's going to have to go into the consensus itself.
2. When not telling Shepard that he (Legion) is saving Geth programs from the consensus.
3. When not telling Shepard that he (Legion) still carries the Reaper upgrades.

Legion: We will deactivate defense systems and acquire an escape vehicle.
Shepard: You can do that?
Legion: This unit still carries remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code. We can break any Geth security. You are concerned.
Shepard: (renegade) Yes, I'm concerned! You're still hooked up to the Reapers?
Legion: No, we simply carry code upgrades that make us more effective--more intelligent.
Shepard: But you lied! You lied about rescuing those Geth on the server, and you're lying again now! Damn it, Legion, what do I have to do to gain your trust?

Raistlin Majere wrote:Also the Heretics principals and ideals were not the same as the Geth, else thwy would not have joined Sovereign on the offer he made. The scond time they join them is spurred on by fear and desperation as without intervention the Quarians would have wiped them out. It is still a stupid decision, no doubt about that, but it is not motivated by evil or a desire to abandon their ways, but a knowledge that if they dont accept the Reapers offer they are going to get wiped out.

Does it even matter why? Does it matter if they're evil? I'd say no. The point is, out of all the people they could have run to for help, they have to join the Reapers. Seems legit.

The fact is, it happened. And as a result, the Geth have been rewritten. We just know that this is the case, because the Reapers did it to the heretics too, and it is evident from the fact that Legion no longer adheres to his old ideals. He's coming to different conclusions.

When the Geth joined the Reapers, all of them became heretics. I think some people fail to realize this.

We all naively assume that the Geth are no longer under Reaper influence once Legion is unplugged, but it is clear the Geth do not adhere to the same ideals that they used to.

Raistlin Majere wrote:That is why I theorize Legion might have realized based on his expeirences that the Geth need upgrades, a better self awareness on an indvidual level if they are to not walk into the same mistakes they made in the past again. And to prevent the Quarians from turning upon them the moment the Reaper war is over.

They could just rebuild the dyson sphere, achieve their own future.

DD:

No they could not just rebuild it, not if the Quarians decide to get rid of them anyway. As long as they remain unupgraded the Quarians could kill or disable the Geth any moment they wanted.

Any discussion between Geth and Quarians would end the moment the Quarians brought up the weapon. If the Quarians choose so the unugraded Geth would never have any true freedom, not even if they finished their Dyson sphere.

Also interesting how you continue to claim we have no way of knowing if the code is unaltered when it i practically there black on white in your quote.

Shepard: (renegade) Yes, I'm concerned! You're still hooked up to the Reapers?
Legion: No, we simply carry code upgrades that make us more effective--more intelligent.

If he carried the entire code, unaltered, unmodified, he would indeed be hooked up to the Reapers, but as he says he only carries code upgrades, not the entire code.

Also you call it naive to think the Geth are no longer under Reaper influence but miss the fact that if the Geth had turned upon us in the final battle, it would not have been a battle but a slaughter. It would have been over before we could even se foot on Earth and with near no casualties for the Reapers.

Legion could have done the same. There are dozens of oppotunities and times where Legion could have ended Shepard or caused his capture, like the aforementioned part where he gets an escape vehicle for us. He could have left Shepard to the Reaper, but he does not. If he is supposed to be acting under Reaper influence or control he is truly doing a bad job sabotaging Shepard.

Also regarding the "lies" I dont see any lies. I see withholding information, but no lies. Especially not what Shepard calls a lie. You go to stop the Geth from destroying the liveships , why is it such a big deal that Legion saves his own people instead of destroying them?

We had already established how fearful (if you can use that word) the Geth are of programs beeing lost forever, Legion simply sees an opputunity to svae programs (and gain allies by the way) and takes it. It is no different than him realizing they can alter the Heretic virus rather than destroying it. It is seizing an opputunity, not lying.

I see your points, I really do, but what we see Legion do, what we see the Geth do as they carry around Legion's code does not match up to the idea that they are Reaper influenced.

Raistlin Majere wrote:DD:

No they could not just rebuild it, not if the Quarians decide to get rid of them anyway. As long as they remain unupgraded the Quarians could kill or disable the Geth any moment they wanted.

Any discussion between Geth and Quarians would end the moment the Quarians brought up the weapon. If the Quarians choose so the unugraded Geth would never have any true freedom, not even if they finished their Dyson sphere.

Fair enough, but there is no valid reason why Shepard couldn't make peace without allowing the upload.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Also interesting how you continue to claim we have no way of knowing if the code is unaltered when it i practically there black on white in your quote.

Shepard: (renegade) Yes, I'm concerned! You're still hooked up to the Reapers?
Legion: No, we simply carry code upgrades that make us more effective--more intelligent.

If he carried the entire code, unaltered, unmodified, he would indeed be hooked up to the Reapers, but as he says he only carries code upgrades, not the entire code.

No, it's not there black on white, IMO. Legion probably believes the upgrades are harmless. But considering that he is withholding the truth from you on three occasions, it is very possible that he could once again not be telling the entire truth.

Once again, my point is, and we keep going in circles about this (lol): even though the code in its current form may be harmless, I suspect the Reaper code is alive. It contains some kind of matrix for the evolution of synthetic life. Over time, it will grow and rewrite itself and evolve the Geth into something else.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Also you call it naive to think the Geth are no longer under Reaper influence but miss the fact that if the Geth had turned upon us in the final battle, it would not have been a battle but a slaughter. It would have been over before we could even se foot on Earth and with near no casualties for the Reapers.

Legion could have done the same. There are dozens of oppotunities and times where Legion could have ended Shepard or caused his capture, like the aforementioned part where he gets an escape vehicle for us. He could have left Shepard to the Reaper, but he does not. If he is supposed to be acting under Reaper influence or control he is truly doing a bad job sabotaging Shepard.

We just keep going in circles now, haha. Again: We have never seen the consequences of our big decisions play out in the same game. This is no different. If it is true what I think, the Reaper code will slowly develop the Geth, over the course of time.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Also regarding the "lies" I dont see any lies. I see withholding information, but no lies. Especially not what Shepard calls a lie. You go to stop the Geth from destroying the liveships , why is it such a big deal that Legion saves his own people instead of destroying them?

We had already established how fearful (if you can use that word) the Geth are of programs beeing lost forever, Legion simply sees an opputunity to svae programs (and gain allies by the way) and takes it. It is no different than him realizing they can alter the Heretic virus rather than destroying it. It is seizing an opputunity, not lying.

Semantics... he's withholding crucial information, so he is being untruthful, untrustworthy.

Raistlin Majere wrote:I see your points, I really do, but what we see Legion do, what we see the Geth do as they carry around Legion's code does not match up to the idea that they are Reaper influenced.

I see your points too, but I do not agree. I still see the Geth being untruthful, and not acting in accordance with their previously held core beliefs.

It occurs to me that Peace between the Geth and Quarians really isn't. It's a peace based on Geth superiority, not harmony and understanding. The whole Geth vs. Quarians struggle is a game of technological leap frog.

When you upgrade the Reaper Code, you leave the Geth in a position to wipe out the Quarians at any time they choose. Should the Quarian fleet continue its attack, it gets annihilated. The Quarians are then ALLOWED to land on the planet and settle the southern continent. The Geth then ASSIST the Quarians BY CHOICE by way of uploading themselves into Quarians' suits, effectively monitoring every single one of them. I'm sorry, but the Peace ending really just leaves the Quarians under the barrel of a gun and completely at the Geth's mercy. They will then last as long as however it takes Xen or any number of traumatized veterans or bigots to provoke the Geth into "self defense" again.

And on that day the Quarians will find that they have all been taken hostage.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Peace between the Geth and Quarians dooms the Quarians, not because the Geth aren't willing to give peace a chance, but because too many Quarians are jerks.

Exactly!

The Quarians are clearly the jerks in this conflict, but that doesn't justify the upload. The Geth didn't figure out how to become truly alive. The Reapers did it for them. "Here, have some upgrades."


ooooo shiny!

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Exactly!

The Quarians are clearly the jerks in this conflict, but that doesn't justify the upload. The Geth didn't figure out how to become truly alive. The Reapers did it for them. "Here, have some upgrades."


ooooo shiny!

No Legion was the one who ultimately did it for them. Once the Rannoch Reaper becomes inert any and all upgrades they had become inert. Legion then shares his code (which by the way remains active despite all the other Geth's code deactivating, further indicating it has been changed). So by the end the upgrades the Geth use come from Legion, not the Reapers even if it was based code from the Reapers.

Also as I have said without the code you are simply handing the gun over to the Quarians, not removing it from the conflict and considering they were the agressors and the jerks as pointed out above I would not wager much on the Geth lasting long after the Reaper war ends.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
- Legion withholds information from Shepard three times:

1. When not telling Shepard that (s)he's going to have to go into the consensus itself.
2. When not telling Shepard that he (Legion) is saving Geth programs from the consensus.
3. When not telling Shepard that he (Legion) still carries the Reaper upgrades.

Does this make Legion the Peter (denies Christ 3 times) of the 12 Apostles?

@DD: "See, at this point, the whole debate is more about the ending choices than the Quarian/Geth situation, but I'll explain my POV anyway."

Well since Destroy involves killing the Geth, it's relevant. I was using it as an example, if you pick destroy you don't even TRY. Just as if you kill the Geth on Rannoch, you don't even TRY to save them.

"Control and synthesis are simply no options for me, as they respectively represent what TIM and Saren, both indoctrinated villains, would do."

Control and Synthesis are wrong for more than that reason. Technically those are not even Saren's and TIM's resolves, otherwise they wouldn't be indoctrinated. Control is wrong for the Reasons mentioned by Shepard, as is Synthesis. Synthesis is forced and makes evolution all together stop, this removes freedom permanently and removes hope for the future. Control is inevitably a dictatorship even under the "innocent beating around the bush" Paragon paint, and stagnant evolution removing hope for the future.

"Refusing is abandoning the mission."

No it is not, from a reductionist perspective it's trying conventional victory. That is not abandoning anything, so please stop lying. If you mean abandoning the Crucible, the Crucible IS NOT what we've came to do this whole time. I mean it is why we are at Earth during the ending, but Shepard clearly distrusts it and only intends on destroying the Reapers PERIOD. Meaning, how he destroys the Reapers... Crucible or no Crucible, it does not matter. However if it meant sacrificing the most important things, it's definitely beyond plausible that Shepard would rather destroy the Reapers without using the Crucible.

"They don't want to sacrifice EDI and the Geth. They want to save everyone."

You have created a false dichotomy where there is only 2 choices... either you sacrifice, or everyone lives. That's not how it works, sorry. There is such a thing as causalities of war. All those quotes you mention are referring to causalities from the Reapers killing people.

The proof is that whenever Shepard or someone is talking about how not everyone can be saved, they refer to people who die during the war simply because they are fighting in it... not because you make a sacrifice. For example when talking to Anderson at the beginning of the game, Shepard talks about how no matter how hard he/she tries, not everybody can be saved. Not because he/she has to make sacrifices, but because he/she cannot stop the Reapers from killing everyone around him/her.

I could point out how the narrative supports the idea that if you try hard enough, you can achieve anything. For example, destroying the collector base. Shepard says that they will not stand for 1 more life to be lost, and yet it's entirely possible to lose EVERYBODY based on how well you do. Just as you can save EVERYBODY depending on how well you do.

I'm not expecting to save everybody, but I'm expecting that I won't have to make a sacrifice if I do well enough. Lives will be lost, but not because I directly sacrifice them. I am of course talking about both the Ending to the game, and the conclusion to the Geth/Quarian conflict. Do well enough, that's all that should and likely will be, required.

"I'll just do what I came to do."

If you'd be willing to Destroy the reapers at any cost, then you'd be willing to do Synthesis if it was legit right? You cannot deny this, you are already willing to do anything as long as it is legit, even though Destroy is not proven legit.

So my question is, is that if Synthesis was actually legit... why wouldn't you pick it? The answer has to be that it isn't Shepard's resolve, but if that is the reason.. then that means this whole time Shepard has had a limit to how much he/she will sacrifice. You cannot deny this.

@ZerebusPrime: Even so, it's the Quarians responsibility. Their consensual ability is of course equal to a Human's, correct? So their responsible for their own actions. Shepard gives them a chance at peace, if they die because of their bigotry then they deserve it and Shepard has done nothing wrong. In fact, peace would still be the right choice on Shepard's part.

@ IronicParticle:

Again you are twisting my words... I never said I am willing to do anything as long as it is legit. And now you're even telling me to stop lying when I am simply stating an opinion?

Okay then.

I have no interest in discussing the literal interpretations of the endings, which is also entirely off topic.

IronicParticle wrote:

@ZerebusPrime: Even so, it's the Quarians responsibility. Their consensual ability is of course equal to a Human's, correct? So their responsible for their own actions. Shepard gives them a chance at peace, if they die because of their bigotry then they deserve it and Shepard has done nothing wrong. In fact, peace would still be the right choice on Shepard's part.

You're missing the subtext, I think.

1. The Quarians have no choice but to stand down and accept the Geth's truce or be shot apart. It's consent at gunpoint.

2. Geth are machines. They are remarkably consistent from individual to individual. Look up the model number of the device they're uploaded into and check the state of the variables in their runtime and then you can accurately guess how they will act. Organics, not so much. The Quarians are full of jerks and saints, idiots and geniuses. We cannot blame all Quarians for the actions of rogue individuals any more than we could blame all of humanity for any of the insane murderers from the past decade. We know there will be anti-Geth incidents because that's just how organic society plays out. When there are such incidents, do the Geth police the Quarians or do the Quarians police themselves (if the latter, it will be under the subext of "OR WE WILL DO IT FOR YOU")? The very moment the Geth have to act in self defense against rogue Quarians is the moment that every other Quarian realizes just how easily the Geth could wipe them all out. Again. And it just gets worse from there.