Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

IronicParticle wrote:Doomsday it seems like you are missing the point. My point isn't just that the RISK itself is worth it... but also the CONSEQUENCES are worth it. The benefit outweighs the consequences, not JUST the risk.

All it takes is the fact that, if you destroy the Geth... then you only go to prove the Reapers right. That not only is Rebellion inevitable, but that peace isn't. You can try to make the excuse that it it does not prove it because this is just the Geth alone and it's triggered by the Reapers... but the problem with that is that you are forgetting something. What the Reapers do to the Geth is not something only the Reapers are willing to do, in fact Cerberus tried to manipulate the Geth too.

Hacking AI, tampering with AI, controlling AI, Rewritting, etc it's all inevitable unto itself unless no evil people exist. Which is practically impossible, as long as evil people exist mechanical Synthetics will face these problems. However, it doesn't HAVE to be inevitable even if evil people are always around. Why? Because there is also good people, who can protect the Children of the Galaxy aka Synthetics. So as long as we are willing to protect them, and help them overcome their problems, then it won't be inevitable... thus it's the only way to peace.

It doesn't matter if EDI is the perfect example of an AI, if she gets rewritten none of that matters in the slightest. So do you murder her? Because that's a short term solution, even if the conflict does not have to be inevitable... what IS inevitable ALWAYS, is that people will create Synthetics. Not for the Catalyst's alleged reason, but because if you look at Humans for example... we are curious. We don't give a fuck if something is forbidden, the very fact that it is forbidden drives us to do it. So obviously murdering Synthetics is not the solution because more will be made and they too will suffer from the mentioned problems.

The real solution is to help the Synthetics overcome the issue... think of it like a disease, you don't kill the diseased person, you cure it. You find a way to fix the Geth's corruption, not murder them.

No, I'm not missing the point at all, I don't agree with it.

I don't prove the Reapers right at all. The statement that 'the created will always rebel' is bullshit, because the only reason synthetics are causing problems is exactly because of Reaper manipulation.

The problem is not that any synthetic may be overwritten/tampered with, the problem is that they're willingly joining the Reapers and unwilling to let go of their Reaper upgrades.

I'm all for peace with the Geth, but then they'll have to let the Reaper code go, but apparently that is not an option. The only way to achieve peace is to allow the upload of the Reaper code.

If I want to avoid making the same mistakes as the previous cycles (like Javik advises) , then I can't allow it.

In an ideal solution Shepard would convince the Quarians to stand down, but only if the Geth are willing to not use the Reaper code. That is not an option, and it is fishy.

Javik says allowing the Geth to use the Reaper code is a mistake. He may be racist, but he also know how the Reapers operate.

I mean look at it like this:

Legion sacrifices himself, so his people can ascend (to true AI status, the final evolution of synthetic life, synthetic perfection). All of this happens in the name of peace between synthetics and organics. The Geth and Quarians will even end up living in a symbiotic relation with each other.

The catalyst for all of this, is Reaper code.

Sound familiar?

I mean, if that doesn't make alarm bells go off...

In ME2, you are given the choice to rewrite or destroy the heretics.

Basically, you need to choose between control and destroy. Choose destroy, no bad consequences. Choose control? It'll bite you in the ass. The amount of Geth joining the Reapers will be larger. You'll have more enemies.

In ME3, they do the same thing, only with synthesis. It's basically choosing between allowing a Reaper solution to be used, and destroy.

Two outcomes will favour the Reapers: the one where you make peace, and the one where you side with the Geth, as both of these situations allow the use of the Reaper code.

Don't allow the use of the Reaper solution, side with the organics, just like in destroy.

I'm seeing some major patterns here, sorry.

ya but it's Carnifex for renegades shooting him.

Also, it's not really scumbag gun I had to use it on Mordon he gave me no choice. The krogan were going to attack and he was still going to cure them because of Eve.

"Choose destroy, no bad consequences." This is offensive, because you clearly ignore the big factor of immorality. It's immoral to murder, or did you forget that? To say it's not bad at all is offensive. I destroy the Heretics but I don't do it lightly, and when I do I break my rule of acting like Shepard has no foresight. Because I usually base it on achieving peace, which Shepard is completely unaware of.

"Two outcomes will favour the Reapers" So does killing the Geth, actually. They clearly knew it was entirely possible for the Geth to die during all of this. They don't care for the Geth, so if they die sooner rather than later it's all just helping them.

"willingly joining the Reapers and unwilling to let go of their Reaper upgrades." They lack consensual ability, the Reapers are abusing the situation the Quarians have created.

"The statement that..." The only part that is wrong is WHY they rebel. Both Javik and the Catalyst are wrong about WHY a Synthetic would rebel. Also, they both wrongly believe rebellion is inevitable in the most strict sense. Whereas, it's only inevitable if you don't try to prevent it with an ACTUAL solution.

You are joking if you think people will not seek to abuse the Geth. This IS inevitable, just like violence is. The only way to get around it is to solve the problem, and for example murdering everyone who is violent does not get rid of violence because it's something that exists in everyone. Just like people will seek to abuse the Geth for power and greed, because these desires are a part of Human nature and so murdering everyone violent would take an eternity... or at least until extinction.

IronicParticle wrote:"Choose destroy, no bad consequences." This is offensive, because you clearly ignore the big factor of immorality. It's immoral to murder, or did you forget that? To say it's not bad at all is offensive. I destroy the Heretics but I don't do it lightly, and when I do I break my rule of acting like Shepard has no foresight. Because I usually base it on achieving peace, which Shepard is completely unaware of.

Who says I do it lightly? Anyway, according to Shepard's crew, there is no difference between the two:

Thane: There is no moral difference between the two. If you change who the Heretics are, you have "killed" them... killed their perspective.

Samara: Either way, what makes these Geth individuals, dies. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body.

Kasumi: Either way, the Heretics are wiped out. Killed or remade. What is the difference?

Jack: Wow, great choices. Genocide or Brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything, I'd rather you blew my head off. Let me die as me.

Jacob: Changing their personality is the same as killing them...who they are is gone.

Grunt: Kill them or pull their teeth, whats the difference? They're killed both ways. Take away their fighting spirit, what else matters?

Garrus: That sounds dangerously close to Indoctrination, unless there is something i am missing. Maybe this is how AIs settle religious disputes.

Shepard: I wouldn't brainwash an organic race, I can't see treating the Geth differently.

IronicParticle wrote:"Two outcomes will favour the Reapers" So does killing the Geth, actually. They clearly knew it was entirely possible for the Geth to die during all of this. They don't care for the Geth, so if they die sooner rather than later it's all just helping them.

It's a win-win-win scenario for the Reapers, as I explained in an earlier post. They either lose one enemy faction in two situations, or they can lose two enemy factions, and gain one allied faction (synthesised Quarian/Geth) in the third situation. However, they win the least by siding with the Quarians, as siding with the Geth would give still give them control over the Geth because of the Reaper code.

IronicParticle wrote:"willingly joining the Reapers and unwilling to let go of their Reaper upgrades." They lack consensual ability, the Reapers are abusing the situation the Quarians have created.

It doesn't even matter whether the Geth are to blame or not, it is no reason to allow the upload of the code.

IronicParticle wrote:"The statement that..." The only part that is wrong is WHY they rebel. Both Javik and the Catalyst are wrong about WHY a Synthetic would rebel. Also, they both wrongly believe rebellion is inevitable in the most strict sense. Whereas, it's only inevitable if you don't try to prevent it with an ACTUAL solution.

You don't have to agree with Javik about why synthetics would rebel to understand that the Reapers manipulate synthetics in every cycle in order to screw over organics. The question whether conflict is inevitable or no isn't even relevant to the question of whether or not you should allow the upload.

IronicParticle wrote:You are joking if you think people will not seek to abuse the Geth. This IS inevitable, just like violence is. The only way to get around it is to solve the problem, and for example murdering everyone who is violent does not get rid of violence because it's something that exists in everyone. Just like people will seek to abuse the Geth for power and greed, because these desires are a part of Human nature and so murdering everyone violent would take an eternity... or at least until extinction.

So what you're saying is: you might as well allow the Geth to use the Reaper code, because it is inevitable that someone is going to mess with the Geth anyway.

Look:

Shepard: Some of the Geth followed Sovereign, the "heretics".
Legion: The heretics accepted their technology. The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The Geth will achieve their own future.
Shepard: What difference does it make how you acquire a certain technology?
Legion: Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path, blinds you to alternatives. Nazara--Sovereign--said this itself. Your civilization is based upon the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.

Why allow Reaper technology to be used, when we know that that is exactly what the Reapers want?

Also:

Legion: "An interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought."

Legion was the one who taught us this, and now he's betraying his own ideals.

But even if you are right, how does this code work? I doubt it will work on it's own, otherwise the Quarians could've been converted instantly already, and there would be absolutely no reason for it not to. However it's possible it requires intervention from Reapers. So then there is a solution: Destroy the Reapers, then they can't do that.

The Reapers don't consider this a war, even with the causalities.. as mentioned by EDI they could've dominated Shepard and the Earth resistance crushing all hope instantly. They definitely don't think we have a chance to stop them, even with thinking Shepard is a threat. However we WILL destroy them in this game, and when it happens it won't be something they believed was going to happen. So it's entirely possible that destroying the Reapers will also save the Geth and the Quarians, or maybe such a thing will depend on other things like EMS.

We've already destroyed their chance at replacement Collectors, so it's highly likely we'd prevent them from creating another Zha'til. Especially since Bioware does not cheat it's fans out of the benefits of morally good choices.

"and now he's betraying his own ideals." Prove it, there is no proof that anything has happened other than he grew up a bit. Do you even know how a brain works? How an "intelligence" works? As more information is gained, a person changes. Legion was inevitably going to change anyways just like EDI did. Which also reminds me: Rewriting the Heretics cannot be the same as killing, otherwise debate is Murder.

"it is no reason to allow the upload of the code." Yes but there is no reason not to either, it's our duty to protect our children aka the Geth and support them in their decisions.. not kill them because their choices are risky. If it's SO risky, then do something about it, and I don't mean murder the Geth either.

It's highly debatable whether or not Murder is EVER justified, and if we are going to even think it is... then we need a justification. What is your justification for murdering the Geth?

IronicParticle wrote:But even if you are right, how does this code work? I doubt it will work on it's own, otherwise the Quarians could've been converted instantly already, and there would be absolutely no reason for it not to. However it's possible it requires intervention from Reapers. So then there is a solution: Destroy the Reapers, then they can't do that.

The Reapers don't consider this a war, even with the causalities.. as mentioned by EDI they could've dominated Shepard and the Earth resistance crushing all hope instantly. They definitely don't think we have a chance to stop them, even with thinking Shepard is a threat. However we WILL destroy them in this game, and when it happens it won't be something they believed was going to happen. So it's entirely possible that destroying the Reapers will also save the Geth and the Quarians, or maybe such a thing will depend on other things like EMS.

When examining the 'mind' of a Geth platform that has the Reaper code, we see something that Legion calls a "growth". He finds it "beautiful, indicative of life". I suspect the Reaper code contains some kind of matrix for the evolution of a synthetic mind. The Reaper code itself seems alive, and it can evolve itself. When you're in the Geth consensus, you'll notice the Reaper code isn't only coloured differently, it's moving, as opposed to static. And not just that, but it seems to 'breathe', and it has the ability to grow back if you erase it. It also makes sighs and grunts and the occasional Reaper growl when you delete it. Also, no matter how hard you try to erase every bit of code, you can't get rid of the roots. Some people attribute these things to the live Reaper still being connected to the consensus, but I'm not so sure.

I think what is most likely is that the Reaper code, when uploaded to the Geth, will grow and evolve over time, slowly rewriting the Geth. We have never seen the consequences of our big decisions play out in the same game, so if there are any consequences to this, I expect to see them in the next game. We know that the Geth will be uploaded into the suits of the Quarians, suits which somehow interact with the Quarians' bodies. Over time, the (Reaper-controlled) Geth AI could seize control of the Quarians' bodies.

IronicParticle wrote:We've already destroyed their chance at replacement Collectors, so it's highly likely we'd prevent them from creating another Zha'til. Especially since Bioware does not cheat it's fans out of the benefits of morally good choices.

Aside from that being another completely meta argument, I'm not so sure about that. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think there's a perfectly valuable lesson in doing things the wrong way, even though you do them for all the right reasons.

IronicParticle wrote:"and now he's betraying his own ideals." Prove it, there is no proof that anything has happened other than he grew up a bit.

I just did prove it. Look at the quotes in my previous post. Legion said the Geth would achieve their own future, and not accept the future offered to them by the Reapers. He said the Geth refused the gifts of the old machines, while the heretics accepted them. He said that by using the Reapers' technology, we would develop along the paths the Reapers desire.

But now he's been hooked up to a Reaper, he suddenly finds the Reaper code "beautiful, indicative of life". Seems legit. I say he's been compromised. He's coming to different conclusions than before. (Exactly like how he explained in ME2 the heretics arrived at different conclusions because of a slightly changed mathematic value.)

IronicParticle wrote:Rewriting the Heretics cannot be the same as killing, otherwise debate is Murder.

But then you're ignoring the in-game lore... If all of your squadmates have the same opinion on the matter, you can be sure it's the writers' intention to tell you something. Just like how all your allies tell you that it's an illusion to think one can control the Reapers. I'm sorry, but the lore is on my side here.

And how is convincing someone by debate the same thing as forcibly brainwashing them?

IronicParticle wrote:"it is no reason to allow the upload of the code." Yes but there is no reason not to either, it's our duty to protect our children aka the Geth and support them in their decisions.. not kill them because their choices are risky. If it's SO risky, then do something about it, and I don't mean murder the Geth either.

It's highly debatable whether or not Murder is EVER justified, and if we are going to even think it is... then we need a justification. What is your justification for murdering the Geth?

I listed them all in the OP.

What you're saying is 'well, they may have been indoctrinated and on the side of the enemy, but that's no reason to kill them'. We tried re-writing ('un-indoctrinating') the heretics before in ME2, and that didn't quite work out like we hoped it would.

How can you call yourself a Sci-Fi nerd and not realize what that growth was? That growth, was the very thing that leaves the debate about whether or not machines can be considered life forms... in the dust. It was a true AI status, we humans do not even know if we have a soul but if we did... then the Geth have finally attained it themselves for certainty. So to say it's not beautiful, is absurd. It didn't require melting people down nor any other such abomination, just code. So technically there is nothing about it that isn't beautiful even if it was part of a trap.

"suits which somehow interact with the Quarians' bodies" The suits are not a part of their body, and the only thing the Geth do is introduce germs constantly to make the Quarians immune system build faster. They are not capable of any form of genetic manipulation on the scale of the Zha'til. The worst they could do, is kill of the Quarians by infecting them with viruses too strong to handle. Furthermore, there is ways to prevent all of this anyways.

"I think there's a perfectly valuable lesson in doing things the wrong way, even though you do them for all the right reasons." No, no there isn't. There is a limit to sacrifice, and the sacrifice has to be consensual at least.

"Writers' intention to tell you something." Yea, their probably telling you Destroy is wrong, not the concept, but the choice in that chamber. Ask yourself, WHY are we destroying the Reapers in the first place! WHY are we opposing them? Destroy is wrong because it sacrifices the things that makes destroying the Reapers important in the first place. You sacrifice Freedom, Hope and Life. There is nothing left beyond that, and they are the reasons we strive to destroy them. I am fairly certain this is what "My own terms" means.

"And how is convincing someone by debate the same thing as forcibly brainwashing them?" It's not brainwashing, brainwashing is convincing the person of falsehoods and lies using force. The logic supplied by the Reapers was not technically right or wrong, it was an opinion. They changed their opinion, when an intelligence is purely software it's bound to be easier to change. However when the Geth become true AI status they will be like EDI where their black box will be what makes the individual. So basically they will be hardware from then on, and so you can't change their mind so easily.

Imagine if someone voiced their opinion and you changed your mind simply because they voiced their opinion, that's what it is like.

"and that didn't quite work out like we hoped it would." Technically nothing has gone wrong yet, at worst it just adds a few more Geth to worry about. But killing them is not acceptable because it sacrifices too much... Life, Freedom and Hope, these are the only things that matter. Sacrifice them and you have nothing left, so the line is drawn.

I don't like the idea of uploading the code either for a couple of reason.

First, because of the risks like you.
Second, because the Geth should earn it for themselves. There is consequences for attaining progress that isn't earned, there is a cost to everything, so if you didn't earn it... then the payment will be something different and worse than hard work.
Third, an extension of the second reason, it's much more satisfying and fulfilling to make accomplishments on your own.

This is why I hope Bioware would give such an opportunity to throw it away at a later time. So that way the Geth may have a chance to earn it for themselves.

However I will not sacrifice the Geth's innocent lives, freedom and hope. As all three of those reasons become self-defeating in such a case.

IronicParticle wrote:How can you call yourself a Sci-Fi nerd and not realize what that growth was? That growth, was the very thing that leaves the debate about whether or not machines can be considered life forms... in the dust. It was a true AI status, we humans do not even know if we have a soul but if we did... then the Geth have finally attained it themselves for certainty. So to say it's not beautiful, is absurd. It didn't require melting people down nor any other such abomination, just code. So technically there is nothing about it that isn't beautiful even if it was part of a trap.

I'm not even debating the fact that synthetics can be lifeforms. My Shepard is pro-synthetics. And the point is not whether the growth is beautiful or not, the point is that Legion/the Geth never wanted to accept the gifts of the old machines, but now he suddenly wants to.

IronicParticle wrote:"suits which somehow interact with the Quarians' bodies" The suits are not a part of their body, and the only thing the Geth do is introduce germs constantly to make the Quarians immune system build faster. They are not capable of any form of genetic manipulation on the scale of the Zha'til. The worst they could do, is kill of the Quarians by infecting them with viruses too strong to handle. Furthermore, there is ways to prevent all of this anyways.

AFAIK, I don't think we know exactly how it works. There could be implants in the suits. And if not, they could be added later. You know to 'speed up' the process of boosting the Quarians' immune systems or 'making it more efficient'. But we've been over this before.

IronicParticle wrote:"I think there's a perfectly valuable lesson in doing things the wrong way, even though you do them for all the right reasons." No, no there isn't. There is a limit to sacrifice, and the sacrifice has to be consensual at least.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. What I mean to say is, if people do the wrong thing, no matter how noble their intentions, the results can be disastrous. That is a lesson to learn.

I'm pretty sure that is the point of the endings as well, and one of the main reasons we believe in IT in the first place.

IronicParticle wrote:"Writers' intention to tell you something." Yea, their probably telling you Destroy is wrong, not the concept, but the choice in that chamber. Ask yourself, WHY are we destroying the Reapers in the first place! WHY are we opposing them? Destroy is wrong because it sacrifices the things that makes destroying the Reapers important in the first place. You sacrifice Freedom, Hope and Life. There is nothing left beyond that, and they are the reasons we strive to destroy them. I am fairly certain this is what "My own terms" means.

No, they're not telling you destroy is wrong. They're telling you brainwashing someone is the same as killing that person, because the person he used to be ceases to exist. If you forcibly change someone to think (and thus act) the opposite of what he used to think, then you are making this person betray his core beliefs, you turn him into a travesty of what he once was. Killing them is simply more merciful. Morally, there is no difference between the two.

And the destroy debate is going off topic, but sometimes a leader has to sacrifice soldiers if it is the only way to secure a victory. Every soldier who signs up knows this. The Geth willingly joined the galactic alliance, and said themselves there will be no more compromises with the old machines. EDI explicitly states that she is prepared to die for the cause.

If you're a military leader, you have to be willing to make sacrifices if there is no other way. If you can't do that, then you can't have a victory, nor can you be a military leader in the first place.

IronicParticle wrote:"And how is convincing someone by debate the same thing as forcibly brainwashing them?" It's not brainwashing, brainwashing is convincing the person of falsehoods and lies using force. The logic supplied by the Reapers was not technically right or wrong, it was an opinion. They changed their opinion, when an intelligence is purely software it's bound to be easier to change. However when the Geth become true AI status they will be like EDI where their black box will be what makes the individual. So basically they will be hardware from then on, and so you can't change their mind so easily.

Imagine if someone voiced their opinion and you changed your mind simply because they voiced their opinion, that's what it is like.

No, it's not. The Reapers literally rewrote the way the Geth think.

IronicParticle wrote:I don't like the idea of uploading the code either for a couple of reason.

First, because of the risks like you.
Second, because the Geth should earn it for themselves. There is consequences for attaining progress that isn't earned, there is a cost to everything, so if you didn't earn it... then the payment will be something different and worse than hard work.
Third, an extension of the second reason, it's much more satisfying and fulfilling to make accomplishments on your own.

Exactly, they need to achieve their own future. But by using the Reaper code, they develop along the path the Reapers desire.

IronicParticle wrote:This is why I hope Bioware would give such an opportunity to throw it away at a later time. So that way the Geth may have a chance to earn it for themselves.

However I will not sacrifice the Geth's innocent lives, freedom and hope. As all three of those reasons become self-defeating in such a case.

But I don't think Bioware will do that. They already made you choose between allowing the upload and killing the Geth.

DD:

Except the Reaper Code has quite clearly been altered. No this is not said anywhere directly, but if it was completely unaltered, unmodified and simply copied directly the Geth as a whole would fall under Reaper control again the moment a Reaper started broadcasting the same signal as the one on Rannoch.

Yet this is clearly not happening, not even when the Reaper is still operational as we see in Prime units you recruit in the Geth consensus mission. If they carried the Reaper code in an unaltered form they would still be under Reaper control.

"I'm not even debating the fact that synthetics can be lifeforms. My Shepard is pro-synthetics. And the point is not whether the growth is beautiful or not, the point is that Legion/the Geth never wanted to accept the gifts of the old machines, but now he suddenly wants to."

They don't suddenly want to, there was a gap in how much time between ME2 and ME3? Synthetics grow faster than Organics mentally, EDI is now a morally good and ethical person... only a while after finally being unshackled.

"There could be implants in the suits. And if not, they could be added later. You know to 'speed up' the process of boosting the Quarians' immune systems or 'making it more efficient'. But we've been over this before."

Except the Quarians won't allow that, once again their majority racist towards the Geth. Even if they allow them to be equal citizens like they should, they won't have enough trust for something like that. That would be like trusting a stranger with your children in terms of being trustworthy.

"What I mean to say is, if people do the wrong thing, no matter how noble their intentions, the results can be disastrous"

Technically wrong in this situation is subjective, as I said we are supposed to support our children in their decisions and protect them from harm. Not kill them because they do drugs and are homeless.

The Destroy discussion is not that off topic, we are talking about the morality of murdering the Geth for the sake of preventing any chance at a Zha'til with 1 of many methods. Which is also why "but sometimes a leader has to", Shepard doesn't HAVE to do it, that's the point. You can find another solution, one more appropriate. "you have to be willing to make sacrifices if there is no other way" There IS other ways, Destroy, shooting that tube, is NOT the only way.

"literally rewrote the way the Geth think." They changed a single number in the Geth's logic which made them come to a different conclusion. The logic itself is not necessarily wrong. Ultimately, it can't be called "force" because there was no resistance on the Geth's behalf. They let their logic get changed :l

IronicParticle wrote:"I'm not even debating the fact that synthetics can be lifeforms. My Shepard is pro-synthetics. And the point is not whether the growth is beautiful or not, the point is that Legion/the Geth never wanted to accept the gifts of the old machines, but now he suddenly wants to."

They don't suddenly want to, there was a gap in how much time between ME2 and ME3? Synthetics grow faster than Organics mentally, EDI is now a morally good and ethical person... only a while after finally being unshackled.

So, Bioware is making this whole point about Reaper technology in ME2, letting Legion explain about how we should achieve our own future and not accept the Reapers' gifts, and you're basically handwaving all of that with a 'Well, some time has passed, Legion simply changed his mind'.

That doesn't make sense at all. The writers are establishing that theme for a reason. You're supposed to have learned something from that, and use that knowledge later in the story. What is the point of establishing all that, only to simply throw it out the window in the next game? Does not compute IMO, sorry.

IronicParticle wrote:"What I mean to say is, if people do the wrong thing, no matter how noble their intentions, the results can be disastrous"

Technically wrong in this situation is subjective, as I said we are supposed to support our children in their decisions and protect them from harm. Not kill them because they do drugs and are homeless.

That analogy doesn't work at all.

IronicParticle wrote:The Destroy discussion is not that off topic, we are talking about the morality of murdering the Geth for the sake of preventing any chance at a Zha'til with 1 of many methods. Which is also why "but sometimes a leader has to", Shepard doesn't HAVE to do it, that's the point. You can find another solution, one more appropriate. "you have to be willing to make sacrifices if there is no other way" There IS other ways, Destroy, shooting that tube, is NOT the only way.

So what is that other way exactly? Last time I checked, control and synthesis were a no-no, and refuse gets the entire galaxy killed.

I don't know about you, but the first couple of times I played the ending, I only had three choices, out of which destroy certainly seems the best one to me.

IronicParticle wrote:"literally rewrote the way the Geth think." They changed a single number in the Geth's logic which made them come to a different conclusion. The logic itself is not necessarily wrong. Ultimately, it can't be called "force" because there was no resistance on the Geth's behalf. They let their logic get changed :l

Oh, come on... they 'only changed a single number', which 'only made them come to different conclusions'. The fact that the logic itself isn't necessarily wrong doesn't even matter, as you are changing the way someone thinks. The person who used to think otherwise, ceases to exist. That's the whole point of the situation with the heretics. There is no difference between rewriting them and killing them. And just because the heretics do not resist, doesn't mean the change wasn't forced from the outside.

If I force you to the ground, and you don't resist, I'm still forcing you.

Raistlin Majere wrote:DD:

Except the Reaper Code has quite clearly been altered. No this is not said anywhere directly, but if it was completely unaltered, unmodified and simply copied directly the Geth as a whole would fall under Reaper control again the moment a Reaper started broadcasting the same signal as the one on Rannoch.

Yet this is clearly not happening, not even when the Reaper is still operational as we see in Prime units you recruit in the Geth consensus mission. If they carried the Reaper code in an unaltered form they would still be under Reaper control.

I'm not a fan of that explanation as it requires a lot of inferring, but even if that is true, I suspect that even though the Reaper code is harmless in its current state, it will eventually regrow and rewrite itself. It is 'alive'. It contains some kind of matrix for the evolution of synthetic life, just like organic cells carry the genetic code for the development of the organism.

As much as I like the Geth, I think DD is right in one big regard.

The Geth need to not use the Reaper code anymore.

The Geth are already alive, a unique form of life. That is worth defending and maybe even dying to preserve. Without the Quarians attacking them, they don't need the code anymore. The code was a means to an end - a way to defend themselves from the Quarians' new anti-Geth technology.

If the choices were:
1/ Side with Quarians, Geth attempt to use Reaper code but are destroyed.
2/ Side with the Geth, Geth use Reaper code to destroy the Quarians.
3/ Broker peace, Quarians cease fire and the Geth destroy the Reaper code as an act of good faith. This could also give a good reason for Legion to die - he carries the code, and sacrifices himself to destroy the code forever.

I'd be happy with that.

However, with the current choice I'll still choose peace. I'm willing to trust and hope the Geth don't turn again. Foolish, perhaps.

Andromidius wrote:If the choices were:
1/ Side with Quarians, Geth attempt to use Reaper code but are destroyed.
2/ Side with the Geth, Geth use Reaper code to destroy the Quarians.
3/ Broker peace, Quarians cease fire and the Geth destroy the Reaper code as an act of good faith. This could also give a good reason for Legion to die - he carries the code, and sacrifices himself to destroy the code forever.

I'd be happy with that.

This is exactly what I am saying.

In an ideal situation, Shepard gets the Quarians to stand down, if the Geth destroy the Reaper code.

If the Geth want to achieve their own future, they should rebuild the dyson sphere.

Bioware is making us choose between allowing the code to be used and killing the Geth.

As much as I love the Geth, the Reaper code stinks of a trap. I don't trust it AT ALL.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:This exactly what I am saying.

In an ideal situation, Shepard gets the Quarians to stand down, if the Geth destroy the Reaper code.

If the Geth want to achieve their own future, they should rebuild the dyson sphere.

Bioware is making us choose between allowing the code to be used and killing the Geth.

As much as I love the Geth, the Reaper code stinks of a trap. I don't trust it AT ALL.

For what it's worth, most species used Mass Relays and Prothean technology to advance. The Geth using Reaper code to advance is not that different if the Geth modified the code so it would be safe from Reaper control. EDI has Reaper code and she seemed pretty reliable in ME2 and ME3 to Shepard. The Rannoch mission got me the first time because I had to choose the Geth. The Quarians, as you know, fired on the Geth Dreadnought with Shepard still on it. Later the Quarians refuse to stop attacking the Geth unless Shepard makes peace. I always felt that the Quarians were the Renegade of that part of the game.

DD and IronicParticle: Great debate, really awesome to read. As I have said before I am torn, I completely understand DD's arguement why we shouldn't do it - but I so want to trust Legion and the Geth - I feel as if they growth/development over the series warrants that.

DSharrah wrote:DD and IronicParticle: Great debate, really awesome to read. As I have said before I am torn, I completely understand DD's arguement why we shouldn't do it - but I so want to trust Legion and the Geth - I feel as if they growth/development over the series warrants that.

Yeah, see, that's the thing. I felt exactly the same way on my playthroughs, but there's aaaaaaaaalways this gnawing feeling that this Reaper code is a bad idea.

From what I've noticed, it seems to me like most people simply don't want this to be true. They're proud of having done all the right things in order to be able to make peace. They want to trust synthetics, they want to prove that synthetics and organics can co-exist, and I feel exactly the same way, BUT...

I feel like the lore and themes are on my side in this one.

And if you want my meta reason:

Evil Bioware black humour. Give people the ultimate good fantasy choice, while tricking them into using the Reaper code. Benefit from the choice in this game, be screwed in the next.

I think they're secretly hoping for people to make peace, even if they can't trick them into choosing control or synthesis.

And some of you guys are seriously underestimating the Reapers.

I mean seriously. The game beats us over the head that it's a bad idea to use Reaper tech.

Reaper code? *handwave* Reverse engineered! What, nobody says it's reverse engineered? *handwave* It's implied!

Yes, yes, I might be wrong. But seriously. At least consider the fact that Legion gives that whole speach about achieving your own future for a reason.

DD - You know that your avatar is really distracting...don't want to pull my eyes off that beautiful dancing ass...and I want to, cause your posts are usually full of awesome!

lol, I try.

But thanks for the tip, I think I'll go change my avatar now, else everyone will stop reading my posts!

Lol. For what it's worth, EDI has had Reaper code since the beginning of ME2 so that's approximately a year that EDI has been loyal to Shepard. I think the issue with the Geth are that they've been controlled by the Reapers somewhat in ME1 and completely in ME3. We can only take Legion at his word that the Geth with new Reaper code will be safe and will not turn against Shepard. I forgot when but in ME3, after Rannoch, there was a Geth Prime I think it was that comments on the Reapers attempting to take control again but the Geth didn't allow it so I would assume the Geth modified some code. I think this required Quarians to die and Geth to live. I can't remember for sure but I know a Geth said it in ME3, it could have been when Joker talks to people throughout the fleet around Earth.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

DSharrah wrote:DD and IronicParticle: Great debate, really awesome to read. As I have said before I am torn, I completely understand DD's arguement why we shouldn't do it - but I so want to trust Legion and the Geth - I feel as if they growth/development over the series warrants that.

Yeah, see, that's the thing. I felt exactly the same way on my playthroughs, but there's aaaaaaaaalways this gnawing feeling that this Reaper code is a bad idea.

From what I've noticed, it seems to me like most people simply don't want this to be true. They're proud of having done all the right things in order to be able to make peace. They want to trust synthetics, they want to prove that synthetics and organics can co-exist, and I feel exactly the same way, BUT...

I feel like the lore and themes are on my side in this one.

And if you want my meta reason:

Evil Bioware black humour. Give people the ultimate good fantasy choice, while tricking them into using the Reaper code. Benefit from the choice in this game, be screwed in the next.

I think they're secretly hoping for people to make peace, even if they can't trick them into choosing control or synthesis.

And some of you guys are seriously underestimating the Reapers.

I mean seriously. The game beats us over the head that it's a bad idea to use Reaper tech.

Reaper code? *handwave* Reverse engineered! What, nobody says it's reverse engineered? *handwave* It's implied!

Yes, yes, I might be wrong. But seriously. At least consider the fact that Legion gives that whole speach about achieving your own future for a reason.

I agree. I think Bioware is going full stop with 'choices will matter' in the future, but they're going to be screwing with the complainers in the process. Win for them.

I sort of agree with it all, but even if I was certain that the Reaper Code would come back to bite me in the ass, I would still pick it.

Because the other choice is to doom a race to die, leaving the code at least opens the posibility of saving the Geth later. This is most likely also Legion's motivation for uploading the code, despite its earlier statements on achieving it on their own terms.

The Geth are facing extinction at the hands of the Quarians, Legion has to do something to save his people. Now some have said that then we could have talked them into peace on the condition Legion did not upload the code, but think about what Legion has seen so far.

The Quarians are obviusly not happy with them despite it beeing the Quarians fault and they still have a weapon which renders the Geth powerless. Any deal which involved the Geth giving up the Reaper code, their defense against said weapon, would also have to involve the Quarians never using a weapon like that again or they could simply wipe out the Geth at will.

And to be honest even if the Geth go int it in good will, I dont know I the Quarians would keep up their end of such a bargain, not after the Reapers were destroyed. And I doubt many organic races would help the Geth even after theri actions in the war.

But beyond that Legion has watched as Geth were put under Reaper control twice, both times willingly. Even despite the information he brought back in ME2 the consensus still choose to accept the Reapers offer.

He also mentions their dyson sphere, how they lost programs permanently when it was attacked, lost intelligence.

Maybe what Legion realizes is that the Geth need upgrades if they are to remain free and alive. As their programs are they a simply to vulnerable both to the creators new weapon, but also to the Reapers offers.

I am obviusly guessing here and the above does not mean the Reaper code could not come back to bite us in the ass.I ma merely trying to understand what would make Legion use the code, altered or unaltered.

Besides we need both the Quarians and Geth at the current moment and there is the fact that we dont know where it will act out to.

"That doesn't make sense at all. The writers are establishing that theme for a reason. You're supposed to have learned something from that, and use that knowledge later in the story. What is the point of establishing all that, only to simply throw it out the window in the next game? Does not compute IMO, sorry."

I've yet to see thannix cannons go wrong, at worst I could see Peace being ruined by the code, but not something so drastically mindfucking to the players that it kills off the Quarians anyways. Because that would mean you never had the chance at saving both at the same time, which doesn't make sense as there is always a way.

"That analogy doesn't work at all."

Uploading the code is simply a risky move that has great benefits. So if it goes wrong, then it's simply a child's mistake. That's why the comparision is valid, because you don't punish your child for their mistakes... you help them learn from it so they don't do it again and you protect them, you don't spank them... little alone kill them. If any harm should come to them, it's mostly the Galaxy's fault for bad parenting.

"and refuse gets the entire galaxy killed." You have to think about what Shepard's resolve is and he would not be willing to do Synthesis so it's undeniable that he has a limit to how much he will sacrifice.

If everyone dies, it's not Shepard's fault.. it's the Reapers'. However in Destroy this is not the case, because Shepard is the one sacrifing an entire Species' and a friend's Life, Freedom and Hope. It'd be fine if Shepard couldn't possibly try to find another way, but he isn't even trying. Unless you pick Refuse. Consent isn't all you need in order to be justified in a sacrifice, you also need to make sure there is no other way.

Ultimately, Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers... and that's why I support Destroy. But at what cost? I mean regardless of Shepard's resolve, if I was in his shoes I'd rather die saying I tried the right thing... it's not my fault if everyone dies in that scenario because I did my best to do what was right. Heck Destroy definitely cannot be right even if it is Shepard's resolve, because extinction should come before we give up what is most important. If we live into the future based on an inhumane decision, then nothing is saved IMHO.

"as you are changing the way someone thinks. The person who used to think otherwise, ceases to exist." The guy in my picture changed the way I think, I guess he murdered me, right? No, change of opinion is not the death of you because you are not your beliefs, etc. The ONLY thing YOU are, is the self awareness in the brain. There is the subconscious, and then there is you, the subconscious stores information, memories, etc and you make conclusions based on said information, etc. What that conclusion is, is called opinions, belief systems, etc.

You are not the conclusions you make.

"If I force you to the ground, and you don't resist, I'm still forcing you." This is a fallacy I believe, not sure which one. But basically that statement is a contradiction.

By the very definition of force, you must be working against a form of resistence. Even if it was considered force, it's just as much force as someone changing your mind by making a good argument in a debate. I don't know how many times I've changed my mind over the course of my life, but I've always been me regardless of opinion.

Now reritting is wrong but not for the reason you seem to think. Take Rape for example, it's not necessarily the force that is wrong about it... it's all about the consent. If the person is unconscious of their own accord for example, there is no force involved. However you still LACK consent, if a person is awake and they say NO and you go against that, then it's force. Force AGAINST consent, right? However if they aren't even aware of the sex, then they simply LACK consent, thus there is no force involved. It's no less wrong though, because it is all about consent not force.

"From what I've noticed, it seems to me like most people simply don't want this to be true. They're proud of having done all the right things in order to be able to make peace. They want to trust synthetics, they want to prove that synthetics and organics can co-exist, and I feel exactly the same way, BUT..."

Well I hope you don't think that's my position, because that isn't. I am almost to the point of outright accepting shit WILL hit the fan. But I'd rather do everything I can to protect my children, I'd die protecting them. If the Quarians are even at risk, it's their duty as parents of the Geth.

"At least consider the fact that Legion gives that whole speach about achieving your own future for a reason."

I am not close minded, to the contrary I am as open minded as can be. I'm so open minded, when I debate like we are right now.. I not only put myself in your shoes, I also give the benefit of the doubt that your premise is true.

The premise in this case? The Geth have been corrupted. Even if this was an absolute truth, my decision is that I STILL lack a justification good enough. The right thing to do is to protect our children, if that kills us then so be it because as "parents" that's our duty.

Edit: Damn... Walls, walls everywhere!