Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by Hanako Ikezawa Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:18 am

Terramine wrote:
Well again, as people are pointing out for Shepard being a spectre is really only ever noted in the story cause he's the first human spectre. Which when you think about it, circles back to N7. He's an N7 soldier, and he's the first human spectre. The first human spectre, is N7. And if they wanted to subtly hint at Shepard's return once again, what better way than to focus on N7?

Guys just pay attention for a sec... listen to this... remember ME2? Remember when everybody thought he was dead? Remember what they did? They showed a Geth... with N7 armor. And people instantly thought they might be playing this Geth... why? Because N7 means the player character... and who is the player character? Commander Shepard.

Um, I don't recall anyone other than maybe a few thinking we would be playing as a Geth. Especially because at that time there was no evidence of Geth being anything but evil, since Legion was the one to show us their side. I remember people thinking we would investigate the death of Shepard, but never thinking that we'd play as a Geth.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:22 am

Davik Kang wrote:I finished the trilogy again recently and I'm getting back into it. ME1 and ME3 were a bit of a chore but ME2 was so cool! The story is pretty silly, but the atmosphere, style and character development are all great. And it's really fun. I think most people always said ME2 was the best but I didn't get that so much til now.

When I replayed ME3 Citadel DLC, I found it kind of laborious and a bit too out of character, but I randomly saw a thread somewhere on another site where SwobyJ said it was his favourite DLC, presumably for IT-related reasons. What are those? I didn't get anything when I played through. Someone somewhere else said something about it being a hallucination from the fish at the restaurant (?!?) Sounds a bit far fetched but I'd love to hear what you, Swoby and everyone made of it.

Hey Davik! =)

I remember fondly how we used to have two ME3 multiplayer lobbies going at the same time, and 8 of us IT people in the same chat. Fun times!

IIRC you almost exclusively played a human infiltrator.

As for Citadel, it contains an awful lot of ending foreshadowing (heavily pro-destroy); not only in the dialogue, but also in the scene with Zaeed and the claw machine (red ball wins the big prize, blue and green let you lose or give you your money back even if the machine always tells you that you WIN!), some references to the breath scene (most notably Shep's romance scene with Jack), Zaeed and Garrus joking about "glass wall fixtures" (like the tube you shoot in destroy) being "wave of the future in home defense" (big magic wave of destruction to defend home = Earth), lots of stuff like that. Also, the evil Shepard clone foreshadowing a different Shepard, lots of parallels in the dialogue about the Shepard clone and what happens to Shepard in the ending. ("my communications were hacked among other things (...) an attempt to take over my life")

We made a thread with our finds back in the day, if you're interested. Some of the better dialogue bits are 'deeper' in the thread:

https://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t300-i-am-so-confused-about-all-of-this-major-ending-foreshadowing-in-citadel-dlc

by Davik Kang Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:47 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
...

Hey DD. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. And yeah the brief MP days were really good fun. The HFI was definitely my preferred character but I played about 10 pretty regularly and quite a few others every now and then.

by Guest Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:53 am

Davik Kang wrote:it is basically insane

Why, thank you Smile

by Rifneno Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:12 am

TurianRebel212 wrote:N7 marine/academy is one of the first codex entry's in Mass Effect for human military's info. You can access it right after Eden Prime when looking At Shep's locker that's where the codex entry for N7 is.

This. Also, N7 was detailed in the first Mass Effect novel which was released before the game was. If anyone didn't know what N7 meant, it's because they're a filthy casual who doesn't even lore.

ZerebusPrime wrote:If you are N7, you are a BAMF who can make hard decisions in the field.

If you are a Spectre, you are a BAMF's BAMF who can also make hard decisions in the field, only with diplomatic immunity.

Spectre > N7

Yet it feels like Bioware is trying to hold N7 over everything else.

Spectres are a lot more accountable in the lore than the game. In the game, it's carte blanche for Shepard to do whatever he wants. In Revelation, Saren couldn't kill Anderson despite really wanting to because there might be a witness and he wouldn't be able to get away with just executing an Alliance officer, spectre or not.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah, Spectres are way more powerful.

Politically powerful, yes. Combat wise? There's no clear winner, especially since (obviously) someone can be both. If I had to pick one though, I would pick N7. The requirements for N7 are brutal and it is impossible for anyone who isn't the absolute top tier to get the rank. The requirements for being a spectre are that the council votes (unanimously?) to make you one. This could be an entirely diplomatic move for a species and the spectre rank is "just for show", as know for a fact they do this because this is what they offered Shepard in ME2.

Jondum Bau will be killed by 1 random human bodyguard and an indoctrinated hanar unless saved. Do you honestly see any N7 member being taken down by such low odds? Kai Leng is the joke of the group, and he killed a krogan in a barfight for christssakes.

smash016 wrote:N7 to me means a cool insignia on my armor.

That's it, really.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 13 You-filthy-casual-meme

ElSuperGecko wrote:+3. N7 is synonymous with Shepard. Interesting to note that the value attributed to N7 status within the story increased in ME3, and the value attributed to "spectre status" decreased.

Actually, spectre status went way down in ME2. Turns out, having one of your most decorated operatives turn rogue and try to kill everyone in the galaxy is really bad for PR. Who'da thunk it?

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:Especially in Mass Effect since many say it has a lot of Christian parallels.

Mass Effect has very few Christian parallels. It has a ton of ancient Greek mythology parallels, but 'tards aren't looking for those because they have to find their goddamn religion in everything ever, so it doesn't get mentioned nearly as much as the "Shpeard is like Jesus because he saveded people genius!

" theories.

by smash016 Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:36 am

Rif, my man, you have so much to learn.

N7 is almost absent in the lore.

Christian parallels are all over the place.

by ElSuperGecko Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:42 am

Rifneno wrote:
Actually, spectre status went way down in ME2. Turns out, having one of your most decorated operatives turn rogue and try to kill everyone in the galaxy is really bad for PR. Who'da thunk it?

Yeah, for a second there I typed "throughout the trilogy" but settled instead for "ME3". Reasoning was that at least you get the possibility of reinstating Spectre status and the badass that is Tela Vasir in ME2.

In ME3, all we hear from the Spectres (who, let's face it, should really be rallying to the cause and helping Shepard out wherever possible) is Jondum Bau. Hell, you get a bigger cutscene about James' application to join the N7 program than Ashley/Kaidan's promotion to Spectre status, IIRC.

by Terramine Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:44 am

smash016 wrote:Rif, my man, you have so much to learn.

N7 is almost absent in the lore.

Christian parallels are all over the place.

If there was any sort of parallel, they were going to have Shepard bluntly DENY the existence of an afterlife by telling ash there was nothingness when he died. And then, to top it off, Shepard faces off against the Gods. Blasphemy is all over the place too. Bioware isn't going "Christianity FUCK YEAH!" even if there were parallels all over the place. Although I have to agree with rif on this one, you DO realize that Christianity just copies a bunch of religions that came before it in a lot of aspects? any perceived parallels are probably actually parallels of something similar to Christianity considering all the Greek parallels.

by smash016 Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:00 pm

Not saying the game IS Christian. It takes themes from religion, primarily Christianity, and in addition, from mythology and classical history.

But it does so in a "non-self-aware" way. It's not part of the fictional universe as lore elements.

by dorktainian Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:15 pm

N = 14th letter of alphabet

Revelation 14:7

He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

by Terramine Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:17 pm

dorktainian wrote:N = 14th letter of alphabet

Revelation 14:7

He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Lmao well then

by dorktainian Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:33 pm

that doesn't mean i think religion is legit in the N7 case. To me N7 means one thing and one thing only.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 13 C2619a273b81004de12a030430c07ee5

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 13 C2619a273b81004de12a030430c07ee5

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:58 pm

I'd say Mass Effect has a lot of references to both Greek and biblical mythology. But it's mostly just names and some symbolism. The Judeo-Christian and Greek cultures have been major influences on western culture as we know it, which is why these references are used, as most people will recognize at least some of them.

But it's really limited to references IMO. There are no major parallels to be drawn between Shepard's story and Jesus' story, and there's absolutely no major Christian message in the story.

If Shepard looks like Jesus in the synthesis ending, it's because it's meant to look like a self sacrifice, and not because the story of Shepard is secretly a version of Jesus' story, because it isn't.

Rifneno wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah, Spectres are way more powerful.

Politically powerful, yes. Combat wise? There's no clear winner, especially since (obviously) someone can be both. If I had to pick one though, I would pick N7. The requirements for N7 are brutal and it is impossible for anyone who isn't the absolute top tier to get the rank. The requirements for being a spectre are that the council votes (unanimously?) to make you one. This could be an entirely diplomatic move for a species and the spectre rank is "just for show", as know for a fact they do this because this is what they offered Shepard in ME2.

Jondum Bau will be killed by 1 random human bodyguard and an indoctrinated hanar unless saved. Do you honestly see any N7 member being taken down by such low odds? Kai Leng is the joke of the group, and he killed a krogan in a barfight for christssakes.

Good points, and yes, I did mean politically, even though apparently Spectres don't get away with anything after all. You're probably right when we're just talking combat. It's just that in ME1, the Spectres were made out to be a big deal, N7 not so much until ME3.

by smash016 Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:16 pm

Maybe it's just names, names that mean nothing within the fictional universe, nor for the audience.

But have you figured out why the Reapers keep blabbering about Ascension, or Salvation? Those terms have very specific, Christian meanings.

Nazara, another one.

And it would explain at last why the narrative required our shepherd to die, then return. Arrival. Second Coming.

Maybe all just cool names and shit. Just trying to figure out here what it could mean in case it's not all empty words.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:49 pm

Yes, the Reapers keep blabbering on about salvation and ascension because they're trying to convince us we should become like they are: eternal, immortal. Organics are like bacteria to them, our lives are measured in years and decades; to the Reapers time doesn't even really have a meaning. They promise us preservation, eternal "life" in Reaper form. They see themselves as the pinnacle of existence and evolution; therefore they speak of "ascension"; to rise beyond our ordinary mortal station and become "something more".

In a sense, they are offering us an eternal afterlife, but that's all there is to it. This terminology is used so we get an idea of how the Reapers perceive themselves, as immortal, perfect gods. Not because there's a hidden Christian message here.

by dorktainian Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:51 pm

i dunno why but when i think of the ending to mass effect i always think of this little curiosity....

"Then Krishna said: “I am death, the destroyer of worlds, fully developed, and I am now active about the overthrow of the worlds. Even without you, the warriors standing in the adverse hosts shall cease to be. Therefore, be up ; obtain glory, and, vanquishing your foes, enjoy a prosperous kingdom. All these have been already killed by me. Be only the instrument. Drona and Bhishma and other valiant warriors whom I have killed do you kill. Be not alarmed. Do fight, and in the battle you will conquer your foes."

This quote is from Bhagvad Gita (Hindu scripture)

Just seems apt to me.

by Terramine Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:53 pm

I just want to clarify that I don't mean to be all "religion is wrong!!!1!11". Just that I don't expect the medium of video gaming to be biased like that without being bluntly so(basically, making an actual Jesus game or something). When it comes to Bioware if they do something like with the symbolism and references, they also try to counter balance it with other stuff, things that promote secularism, skepticism, etc.

They should have no place selling religion or antireligion. And they don't do so.

by Rifneno Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:21 pm

smash016 wrote:Rif, my man, you have so much to learn.

N7 is almost absent in the lore.

Christian parallels are all over the place.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 13 Casual_zpsf82351ee

Terramine wrote:If there was any sort of parallel, they were going to have Shepard bluntly DENY the existence of an afterlife by telling ash there was nothingness when he died.

I still wish there was an option to troll her and tell her you were in Valhalla or the Elysian Fields or some shit.

smash016 wrote:Not saying the game IS Christian. It takes themes from religion, primarily Christianity, and in addition, from mythology and classical history.

But it does so in a "non-self-aware" way. It's not part of the fictional universe as lore elements.

In other words, Swoby-tier nonsense. Weak, vague connections that can be made about anything.

smash016 wrote:But have you figured out why the Reapers keep blabbering about Ascension, or Salvation? Those terms have very specific, Christian meanings.

Is English your first language? No, they don't. They may have been coined there, but they're common everyday words now. If someone says "he ascended the corporate ladder quickly," there is no deep religious significant and that is extremely stupid.

Nazara, another one.

TIL old Turkish = the bible

And it would explain at last why the narrative required our shepherd to die, then return. Arrival. Second Coming.

Shepard is named after an astronaut, not because it sounds like shepherd. Arrival is just a word. I have never heard "second coming" in Mass Effect.

Maybe all just cool names and shit. Just trying to figure out here what it could mean in case it's not all empty words.

Well do it in the crazy door. It was made for exactly this type of horseshit. We already have one Swoby, we don't need another.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:41 pm

smash016 wrote:Nazara, another one.

That word has several meanings in several languages; Hindi, Urdu, Hebrew, Arabic, all of them different. From spectacle or sight to truth, joy, laughter and happiness, female, bloom, beauty, you name it. Picking one is just as arbitrary as any other.

by vlad78 Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:11 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
smash016 wrote:Nazara, another one.

That word has several meanings in several languages; Hindi, Urdu, Hebrew, Arabic, all of them different. From spectacle or sight to truth, joy, laughter and happiness, female, bloom, beauty, you name it. Picking one is just as arbitrary as any other.

No offence but this is quite an irrelevant statement, totally disconnected from the game .

Sovereign's name is nazara.
Some geth do worship reapers as gods.
Those geth are called heretics by other geth and codex implies this choice of word is meaningful in relation to what 'the other geth' (I call them orthodox) are.
Shep has 12 squadmates in ME2, right after being resurrected.
The trees found in the council chamber are cherry trees, this is noticed by Ashley, perhaps the most religious human character of the trilogy,
Cherry tree is what Judas used to hang himself = in the citadel designed by the reapers to betray organics,
there's the ark of covenant in the citadel archive,
and so on...

All those religious elements, be they christian, jew, hellenic, roman, and so on are no coincidences.
Furthermore all species do have strong religious themes which are used to flesh out the universe but there's one idea behind that, those religious movements and beliefs were used by gods to shape the current galaxy.

Guess who those gods are.

@Rifreno
INDEED you have much to learn. Laughing

BW excels in using metaphors.
Ignoring them is ignoring half of what is said ingame (even if you're a native english speaker).

by smash016 Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:32 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yes, the Reapers keep blabbering on about salvation and ascension because they're trying to convince us we should become like they are: eternal, immortal. Organics are like bacteria to them, our lives are measured in years and decades; to the Reapers time doesn't even really have a meaning. They promise us preservation, eternal "life" in Reaper form. They see themselves as the pinnacle of existence and evolution; therefore they speak of "ascension"; to rise beyond our ordinary mortal station and become "something more".

In a sense, they are offering us an eternal afterlife, but that's all there is to it. This terminology is used so we get an idea of how the Reapers perceive themselves, as immortal, perfect gods. Not because there's a hidden Christian message here.

But this is exactly my point. Like I already said, my idea is not that there's a Christian message, certainly not in the evangelical sense, but that we, in a very secular way, can use references to Christianity and other real-life sources to understand the story better. That these names and references were placed very deliberately.

(For the record I am as atheistic as I can be. No ulterior motives here.)

Rifneno wrote:
smash016 wrote:Rif, my man, you have so much to learn.

N7 is almost absent in the lore.

Christian parallels are all over the place.

Seriously, I have a hunch the next ME game will dig deeper into N7, and that it's also why we've learned so relatively little about it thus far. About the only thing confirmed is that we'll play as an N7 operative IIRC.

smash016 wrote:Not saying the game IS Christian. It takes themes from religion, primarily Christianity, and in addition, from mythology and classical history.

But it does so in a "non-self-aware" way. It's not part of the fictional universe as lore elements.

In other words, Swoby-tier nonsense. Weak, vague connections that can be made about anything.

What I meant to say was that characters are not aware of any Christian content or similar references. It's a thematic layer meant for the audience. I placed that term between quotation marks because it sounded rather clumsy, I know. And you said yourself the Greek mythology is there. Why argue now.

smash016 wrote:But have you figured out why the Reapers keep blabbering about Ascension, or Salvation? Those terms have very specific, Christian meanings.

Is English your first language? No, they don't. They may have been coined there, but they're common everyday words now. If someone says "he ascended the corporate ladder quickly," there is no deep religious significant and that is extremely stupid.

Except the Reapers don't use fucking ladders, corporate or otherwise. Nor use the verb.

Nazara, another one.

TIL old Turkish = the bible

Not sure what you mean.

And it would explain at last why the narrative required our shepherd to die, then return. Arrival. Second Coming.

Shepard is named after an astronaut, not because it sounds like shepherd. Arrival is just a word. I have never heard "second coming" in Mass Effect.

I admit this one requires more Scary Door explanation. Forget about it.

Maybe all just cool names and shit. Just trying to figure out here what it could mean in case it's not all empty words.

Well do it in the crazy door. It was made for exactly this type of horseshit. We already have one Swoby, we don't need another.

Well, Swoby kind of brought me over here. So makes sense.

Recently you were interested in lore physics that the lore itself never bothers to be as precise about. I'm more interested in other themes. Yet I didn't boss you around for it. Just ignored what you wrote or didn't read it.

Only you have to keep acting like you own this place. And like this entire place is a just a small-time clique. It's a shame and it's getting old.

But I'll grant you one thing. I was wrong to share these ideas here, in the main thread. Sorry for that. It won't happen again.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
smash016 wrote:Nazara, another one.

That word has several meanings in several languages; Hindi, Urdu, Hebrew, Arabic, all of them different. From spectacle or sight to truth, joy, laughter and happiness, female, bloom, beauty, you name it. Picking one is just as arbitrary as any other.

Back when I looked it up, the Nazareth connection appeared to be the most prominent and obvious, by far, and it still does now, but true, it may have been chosen for entirely different reasons.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:05 pm

vlad78 wrote:Sovereign's name is nazara.

Well that's just stating the obvious. What are we meant to conclude from this?

vlad78 wrote:Some geth do worship reapers as gods. Those geth are called heretics by other geth and codex implies this choice of word is meaningful in relation to what 'the other geth' (I call them orthodox) are.

Yes, the Reapers are being seen as gods by the Geth. The Reapers themselves pretty much see themselves this way. I don't see how this is supposed to mean anything more than that.

vlad78 wrote:Shep has 12 squadmates in ME2, right after being resurrected.

Are you aware that the writers have referred to ME2 as the "Dirty Dozen" in the series? Because it's a little homage to a classic movie.

As for Shepard dying and being resurrected, what are you saying? That there's some Christian message in here? Sorry, I don't see it. Did Shepard die for the sins of the galaxy? Not really.

I don't think there's any biblical parallels to be made here, other than that the name for the Lazarus project comes from a story in the bible.

vlad78 wrote:The trees found in the council chamber are cherry trees, this is noticed by Ashley, perhaps the most religious human character of the trilogy, Cherry tree is what Judas used to hang himself = in the citadel designed by the reapers to betray organics,

That's a really vague connection. Besides, Reapers don't "betray" organics. The Citadel is a trap. That's something else entirely.

vlad78 wrote:there's the ark of covenant in the citadel archive

Which could simply be a little homage to Indiana Jones. The Ark of the Covenant is often used as an easter egg in popular culture. It's even in some Star Wars cartoon, where you see two battle droids carrying it away in the background. The Ark of the Covenant is the ultimate legendary lost object, rivalled in popularity only by the holy grail. And the iconic warehouse scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark has only cemented that idea. Hell, just last night I was watching a Family Guy episode where the scene was referenced.

The lost Ark is one of the world's biggest "secrets". If they wanted to give people an idea of big secrets being buried in the Citadel Archives, they couldn't have gone with a better example.

vlad78 wrote:All those religious elements, be they christian, jew, hellenic, roman, and so on are no coincidences.

No, it's not coincidental that the writers would use words and symbols from mythology that people in western culture are fairly familiar with. But I think it stops there.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand, but what are you saying exactly?

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:17 pm

smash016 wrote:But this is exactly my point. Like I already said, my idea is not that there's a Christian message, certainly not in the evangelical sense, but that we, in a very secular way, can use references to Christianity and other real-life sources to understand the story better. That these names and references were placed very deliberately.

(For the record I am as atheistic as I can be. No ulterior motives here.)

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying now. It seemed like you were saying there was more to these references than just that.

by Rifneno Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:47 pm

vlad78 wrote:Sovereign's name is nazara.

Which is from the Old Turkish word meaning "one who watches", not the biblical version. Obviously.

Some geth do worship reapers as gods.

Yes. GodS. That's polytheism, not monotheism.

Shep has 12 squadmates in ME2, right after being resurrected.

This is exactly what I mean by Swoby-tier. This is just bad. How many fictional protagonists have been killed and later brought back to life? Thousands? More? Okay then. Didn't Jesus have 12 followers before he was killed?

The trees found in the council chamber are cherry trees, this is noticed by Ashley, perhaps the most religious human character of the trilogy,
Cherry tree is what Judas used to hang himself = in the citadel designed by the reapers to betray organics,

If there was the least bit of consistency to this bullshit, your Judas analogue would have been a squadmate in ME2. But it's not, because it's bullshit.

there's the ark of covenant in the citadel archive,

The same DLC that brought us ghost thane.

GHOST THANE.

I--I'm sorry, I have to go. Ghost Thane never fails to rile me up too much to continue. I don't even---A FUCKING GHOST. Oh my god.

by symbowles Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:00 pm

Rifneno wrote:
The same DLC that brought us ghost thane.

GHOST THANE.

I--I'm sorry, I have to go. Ghost Thane never fails to rile me up too much to continue. I don't even---A FUCKING GHOST. Oh my god.

Kalahira be praised!

by Sponsored content