Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by Davik Kang Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:37 pm

SwobyJ wrote:
Davik Kang wrote: ...insane...
Why, thank you

I mean that in the nicest possible way. It is inspired and touches on a number of brilliant ideas. I only say insane because it alters almost all of the reality that we are presented in the series. Theoretically it's possible, but Mass Effect ultimately is a story about a cool space marine who smashes big bad spacemonsters and has fun with sexy aliens along the way. Themes of unreality are occasionally present or suggested, but not so much that players would normally question whether Shepard's really there until the Geth Consencus stuff.

Rifneno wrote:GHOST THANE.

LOOOOL I hadn't seen that. I guess BW figured fans who romanced Thane would like the idea of his spirit enduring in afterlife. It is a bit of a departure from the series... but then all of Citadel was really.

by Guest Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:48 pm

I think the Mass Effect trilogy should only be about a cool space marine who smashes big bad space monsters and has fun with sexy aliens along the way. It excels at that. I just think there may be more to the franchise itself, as it approaches nearly a decade old (especially if you date back to the initial ME1 announcements). That there's ways so can expand into being something else, while not losing elements of what came before. But I think Commander Shepard's story is supposed to be largely to the point, and a fantastic (in the long-run) introduction to much more.

Oh, and yeah, Ghost Thane:

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:26 pm

I'd never seen that before. Then again, I'm not a Thanemancer.

by ZerebusPrime Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:39 am

No one else reacts to Ghost Thane's presence. Obviously another sign of indoctrination playing mind tricks on Shepard!

I need a hobby.

by dorktainian Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:59 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:No one else reacts to Ghost Thane's presence. Obviously another sign of indoctrination playing mind tricks on Shepard!

I need a hobby.

Join the club.....

by Terramine Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:28 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:No one else reacts to Ghost Thane's presence. Obviously another sign of indoctrination playing mind tricks on Shepard!

I need a hobby.

Ok no but why are we shrugging this off? We know bioware intended Indoctrination, it's been pointed out a trillion times that Bioware is not susceptible to bad writing. So why are we turning a blind eye to something that for all intents and purposes is complete nonsense when taken at face value?

Pay attention to what thane says... "I'll be waiting on the shore for you to come to the sea" or whatever. He's basically saying he's waiting for her to DIE. And what does this whole speech do? Motivate Shepard to charge towards the ending...

by ZerebusPrime Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:44 pm

It's just that the Citadel DLC is *filled to the brim* with hints that what happens in it isn't real.

That's why making Maya Brooks a part of official canon in the comics ticks me off.

by vlad78 Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:12 pm

Terramine wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:No one else reacts to Ghost Thane's presence. Obviously another sign of indoctrination playing mind tricks on Shepard!

I need a hobby.
Ok no but why are we shrugging this off? We know bioware intended Indoctrination, it's been pointed out a trillion times that Bioware is not susceptible to bad writing. So why are we turning a blind eye to something that for all intents and purposes is complete nonsense when taken at face value?

Pay attention to what thane says... "I'll be waiting on the shore for you to come to the sea" or whatever. He's basically saying he's waiting for her to DIE. And what does this whole speech do? Motivate Shepard to charge towards the ending...

Who's waiting under the sea? Kalahira aka as leviathan?

Thane 's ghost is indeed another hint citadel dlc is not real. imho

by vlad78 Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:14 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:It's just that the Citadel DLC is *filled to the brim* with hints that what happens in it isn't real.

That's why making Maya Brooks a part of official canon in the comics ticks me off.

It' totally posible all Cerberus staff ingame are a reflection of the real world.
Miranda and Maya (up to a certain point) were in charge of the Lazarus project. It's wouldn't be farfetched to see them in Shep's dream.

by vlad78 Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:36 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
vlad78 wrote:Sovereign's name is nazara.

Well that's just stating the obvious. What are we meant to conclude from this?

vlad78 wrote:Some geth do worship reapers as gods. Those geth are called heretics by other geth and codex implies this choice of word is meaningful in relation to what 'the other geth' (I call them orthodox) are.

Yes, the Reapers are being seen as gods by the Geth. The Reapers themselves pretty much see themselves this way. I don't see how this is supposed to mean anything more than that.

vlad78 wrote:Shep has 12 squadmates in ME2, right after being resurrected.

Are you aware that the writers have referred to ME2 as the "Dirty Dozen" in the series? Because it's a little homage to a classic movie.

As for Shepard dying and being resurrected, what are you saying? That there's some Christian message in here? Sorry, I don't see it. Did Shepard die for the sins of the galaxy? Not really.

I don't think there's any biblical parallels to be made here, other than that the name for the Lazarus project comes from a story in the bible.

vlad78 wrote:The trees found in the council chamber are cherry trees, this is noticed by Ashley, perhaps the most religious human character of the trilogy, Cherry tree is what Judas used to hang himself = in the citadel designed by the reapers to betray organics,

That's a really vague connection. Besides, Reapers don't "betray" organics. The Citadel is a trap. That's something else entirely.

vlad78 wrote:there's the ark of covenant in the citadel archive

Which could simply be a little homage to Indiana Jones. The Ark of the Covenant is often used as an easter egg in popular culture. It's even in some Star Wars cartoon, where you see two battle droids carrying it away in the background. The Ark of the Covenant is the ultimate legendary lost object, rivalled in popularity only by the holy grail. And the iconic warehouse scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark has only cemented that idea. Hell, just last night I was watching a Family Guy episode where the scene was referenced.

The lost Ark is one of the world's biggest "secrets". If they wanted to give people an idea of big secrets being buried in the Citadel Archives, they couldn't have gone with a better example.

vlad78 wrote:All those religious elements, be they christian, jew, hellenic, roman, and so on are no coincidences.

No, it's not coincidental that the writers would use words and symbols from mythology that people in western culture are fairly familiar with. But I think it stops there.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand, but what are you saying exactly?

What I'm saying is that in Mass effect, the use of religious symbolism does not convey a christian message or anything of that kind, it is imho deliberatly used because all organic civilizations were shaped by higher beings under God or gods disguise. = athame, kalahira, and so on.

Yes, the 12 squadmates is an hommage to the dirty dozen but the ties with Jesus and the 12 apostles is much stronger.

Yes Nazara could mean anything, but the repetition of religious symbolism makes it unlikely it is not Nazara, the town in Palestine.

The Cherry tree = did you ever wonder why it is noticed by the only christian character in the trilogy?
Go find out how the garden on the Olive Mount is said in old hebrew, you'll be surprised. What happened there? (link it to the infilTRAITOR from Legion)

The ark of covenant, even if it's an hommage to Indiana Jones, don't you find strange to see the symbol of a compact between god and humans be kept by the council led by the asari whose civilization was uplifted by the protheans (and imho by leviathan pulling the strings)

Ok this is not the right thread but all those elements are tied together.

@rifreno
My good sir, you cannot take each element of the narrative and state they are meaningless and disconnected from the rest.

Far to the contrary, you need to look for the many convergence points and then try to foresee the whole picture.

Otherwise, you'll just behave like any FVer. Those who still believe synthesis (or even control) is a possible choice.

It's not because Citadel Dlc is obviously a fiction happening only is Shep's mind that what is shown there is wrong. Keys are given.

by Guest Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:22 pm

Ashley is more deist than Christian.

Uh, that's all I had to say really. Blank

EDIT: I think. I could be wrong.

by Rifneno Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:30 pm

vlad78 wrote:It' totally posible all Cerberus staff ingame are a reflection of the real world.
Miranda and Maya (up to a certain point) were in charge of the Lazarus project. It's wouldn't be farfetched to see them in Shep's dream.

Shepard never knew of Brooks' existence. Her role was entirely unknown to him. Therefor, he can't be dreaming of her.

vlad78 wrote:Yes, the 12 squadmates is an hommage to the dirty dozen but the ties with Jesus and the 12 apostles is much stronger.

No.

Yes Nazara could mean anything, but the repetition of religious symbolism makes it unlikely it is not Nazara, the town in Palestine.

This is beautiful right here. The game is full of religious symbolism because there's so many little things, and we know those little things are legit because the game's full of religious symbolism. Circular logic(tm). Because what else are you going to do when real logic fails you? Admit to being wrong? Madness!

The Cherry tree = did you ever wonder why it is noticed by the only christian character in the trilogy?

No, because I wasn't even aware that line of dialogue existed after dozens of playthroughs of the trilogy. It's mentioned one time, in the first game, and only if you take one particularly annoying around an area that's full of nothing. It's called "flavor text." Look it up.

Go find out how the garden on the Olive Mount is said in old hebrew, you'll be surprised. What happened there? (link it to the infilTRAITOR from Legion)

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 14 Washinghands_zpsb27e799d

by Guest Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:37 pm

I wouldn't entireeeeely discount 'flavor text'. One included Kaidan having a supposedly innocent reaction to the relay monument. Just the nature of this kind of flavor text (cherry tree) is most likely innocent.

by **spotlessvoid** Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:13 pm

Seriously? Mass Effect is not a Christian allegory, nor is there any hidden meaning that once unlocked will reveal some esoteric understanding of what Mass Effect is really about.

by vlad78 Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:23 pm

Rifneno wrote:
vlad78 wrote:It' totally posible all Cerberus staff ingame are a reflection of the real world.
Miranda and Maya (up to a certain point) were in charge of the Lazarus project. It's wouldn't be farfetched to see them in Shep's dream.

Shepard never knew of Brooks' existence. Her role was entirely unknown to him. Therefor, he can't be dreaming of her.

vlad78 wrote:Yes, the 12 squadmates is an hommage to the dirty dozen but the ties with Jesus and the 12 apostles is much stronger.

No.

Yes Nazara could mean anything, but the repetition of religious symbolism makes it unlikely it is not Nazara, the town in Palestine.

This is beautiful right here. The game is full of religious symbolism because there's so many little things, and we know those little things are legit because the game's full of religious symbolism. Circular logic(tm). Because what else are you going to do when real logic fails you? Admit to being wrong? Madness!

The Cherry tree = did you ever wonder why it is noticed by the only christian character in the trilogy?

No, because I wasn't even aware that line of dialogue existed after dozens of playthroughs of the trilogy. It's mentioned one time, in the first game, and only if you take one particularly annoying around an area that's full of nothing. It's called "flavor text." Look it up.

Go find out how the garden on the Olive Mount is said in old hebrew, you'll be surprised. What happened there? (link it to the infilTRAITOR from Legion)

1 - Who said Shep hypothetical dream is only the result of his subconscious?
If reapers or levi or anyone is trying to indoctrinate him, then there is no reason informations about the world outside cannot be reflected here.

2 - Yes. Laughing

No one within the dirty dozen has been resurrected. None.

3 - Nope. If there's a logic behind the religious element, then hyothesis can be make they are not random.
I already made a list about elements tied to the christian of jewish faith in ME1, there's no reason Nazara should be any different.
While this is not undisputable proof, it is consistent enough to not throw the theory out of the window like you do.

4 - I disagree, the fact that only the christian character will say it makes it all the more suspicious.
Furthermore, ME hidden story and BW hints are buried in the datas. You need to dig everywhere to collect every piece of evidence.

Furthermore, you have to take Ashley with you in the council chamber in ME1. This sentence is likely to be heard.
Finally, even if you didn't hear it does not mean it's meaningless. You can also kill all Feros colonists and miss how they become linked with Shiala which is of paramount importance to explain what is happening to Shepard.
BW rewards multiple playthrough.

Flavour text is your interpretation.

Of course to each its own interpretation.

by smash016 Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:25 pm

Here's my take on the trees. Spoilered away so people are not forced to take offense.

Spoiler:

by vlad78 Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:25 pm

SwobyJ wrote:I wouldn't entireeeeely discount 'flavor text'. One included Kaidan having a supposedly innocent reaction to the relay monument. Just the nature of this kind of flavor text (cherry tree) is most likely innocent.

Funny, because Kaidan's line is not innocent either. imho

I think it clearly indicated the monument is emitting indoctrinating sounds. And it is supposed to have been put there by the protheans. Shocked

by vlad78 Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:33 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:Seriously? Mass Effect is not a Christian allegory, nor is there any hidden meaning that once unlocked will reveal some esoteric understanding of what Mass Effect is really about.

Nope no christian allegory. Cultural allegories telling what is happening behind the scene.

Don't you think a game, which will straight in your face tell a story where God is a fabrication made by an apex alien species in order to shape our culture according to their needs, would cause an uproar?
(there's already been an uproar because we could see tits in ME1 for 3 seconds)

But it is exactly what is happening to the asari.
Think again about the ark of covenant and why it is in the citadel archive, kept amongst the most secret knowledge of the council.

by Guest Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:52 pm

vlad78 wrote:
SwobyJ wrote:I wouldn't entireeeeely discount 'flavor text'. One included Kaidan having a supposedly innocent reaction to the relay monument. Just the nature of this kind of flavor text (cherry tree) is most likely innocent.

Funny, because Kaidan's line is not innocent either. imho

I think it clearly indicated the monument is emitting indoctrinating sounds. And it is supposed to have been put there by the protheans.

Uh, seems you misread me. I said supposedly innocent - it turned out not to be innocent, but a small piece of foreshadowing at the relay monument being important, and in fact part of the Conduit travel.

We don't know that its emitting indoctrination. Relays themselves possibly send off their own signals - and we don't know if relays indoctrinate, so..

by Rifneno Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:53 pm

tb;td. Too bullshit; didn't read.

by **spotlessvoid** Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:31 pm

When you introduce outside content to interpret fiction, particularly something as vast, vague, and contradictory as Christianity and it's texts, the danger of confirmation bias increases exponentially, especially when the work of fiction originates from a country who's cultural origins and language's etymology is largely inherited from that religion.

Basically, just because there are themes and names that can sometimes be attributed to Christianity doesn't mean there is authorial intent to relay a series of interconnecting clues pointing to any larger thematic or narrative meaning.

by smash016 Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:21 pm

That's a sound view, but I don't believe the average US game or work of fiction references Christianity and similar themes as prominently as ME.

Question remains, of course, what the intention is. Even if not a deliberate clue, though, an author's likely source of inspiration can be informative.

by TurianRebel212 Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:00 am

Fuck guys, red herrings. Duh. I mean.... C'mon now.

Just use your, you know. Diopters and stuff to see the truth.

Mass Effect is really quite simple. You just gotta see through all the bull shit and red herrings and maccguffin's that Drew K. and later Hudson put in place for you. They constantly feed you misinformation. Think about it.

YOU REALLY THINK THE REAPERS WOULD JUST LET THE SCHEMATICS FOR AN ALL POWERFUL OHK UBER WEAPON CAPABLE OF DESTROYING THEM JUST LYING AROUND......

LOL, GTFO

by smash016 Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:30 am

Lol.

Bailey: "The more destruction the Reapers sow, the more ships come looking for salvation." [on the Citadel]

Right where they want 'em.

Coincidentally, the Crucible can't function without the Citadel, never could...

by Guest Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:54 am

Fire the fields, the weed is sown
Water down your empty soul
Wake the sea of silent hope
Water down your empty soul

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 14 Cruc%25255B3%25255D

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 14 Cruc%25255B3%25255D

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