(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

I'm still curious as to where they're going to take this series of games, if it does become another series/trilogy. They're going to have to accept that people will want to go back to the milky way at some point, the ending shit will be brought back up again Shep or no Shep.

Lets speculate they do the 3 game thing again...actually they backed themselves into a corner giving this one an actual title (Adromeda) but that's irrelevant. So they get to andromeda 3, finish it...where next? I'm thinking there's not going to be much of our favourite races in this galaxy and people want to see Turians, Quarians, Geth (if saved) so we're going to have to go back to the Milky Way and people have already said "meh" to a prequel type game.

This is what makes me think andromeda may be a standalone game if there's no reference to the past trilogy, i'm hoping it doesn't actually have sequels and they eventually bring the genre back to ME 3/Shepard.

tl;dr They can dodge a bullet with this one but eventually people will want to know what the hell happened back at the Milky Way

what I want to know is that how can they go from the milky way (1st trailer) to andromeda (2nd trailer) ? WTF happened?

@ WeAreHarbinger:

Geth can be a part of Andromeda, depending on when the expedition left.

Also, yeah, they can't stay in Andromeda forever.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:@ WeAreHarbinger:

Geth can be a part of Andromeda, depending on when the expedition left.

Also, yeah, they can't stay in Andromeda forever.

Very true. They can also be used to maintain the Ark/ship as i assume stasis will come into play with that much space between the milky way & Andromeda

Exactly, or alternatively, if there's no stasis involved and the expedition takes generations, so descendants of the original exiles will be the ones to reach Andromeda, then the Geth could be the only ones alive who have been in the Milky Way. Except for some old Asari, maybe.

wait.... why the hell is anyone buying this andromeda fucking bullshit?

WeAreHarbinger wrote:tl;dr They can dodge a bullet with this one but eventually people will want to know what the hell happened back at the Milky Way

Sadly that's not true.  It's exactly the opposite.  The longer this goes on, the less people care.  If the week of ME3's release they had announced the sequel would be in Andromeda, there would have been hell to pay.  But 3 and a half years later, the great majority have stopped caring about the issue.  As we can see from the mostly positive reaction this vile, rancid shit has gotten.

It's depressing, but we really are the last bastion of fucks being given.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Also, yeah, they can't stay in Andromeda forever.

Sure they can.  Why couldn't they?  They could've stayed in the Milky Way forever and Andromeda's as big as the Milky Way is.  Besides, even if we assume that's true and they only do 2 more games there, and each game takes about as long to make as ME:A, that'd be 15 years after ME3 that they START working on giving us answers.  I sincerely doubt a single one of us will give a single sliver of a shit at that point.

*sigh* You're probably right.

Yeah i second what DD said *sigh*

I guess i just hold hope i would would always have some sort of resolution to the milky way conflict. Also a small part of me wanted to see what kind of shit stunt they pulled to try and get out of it. Oh well....a dead god can still dream right?

The thing that bugs me, perhaps, is they can move the whole thing to Andromeda, so as to start with a clean sheet and all -- sure, be my guest BW -- but still clarify the ME3 endings.

It's not like that's not possible. It's not a black-and-white decision.

I mean, both commercially and artistically, they OUGHT to do just that. Attract new players AND placate existing fans. Introduce narrative continuity AND novelty. All four are necessary. For us, too.

What's not to like about it? As a writer, I'd take on the challenge with pleasure.

smash016 wrote:The thing that bugs me, perhaps, is they can move the whole thing to Andromeda, so as to start with a clean sheet and all -- sure, be my guest BW -- but still clarify the ME3 endings.

It's not like that's not possible. It's not a black-and-white decision.

I mean, both commercially and artistically, they OUGHT to do just that. Attract new players AND placate existing fans. Introduce narrative continuity AND novelty. All four are necessary. For us, too.

What's not to like about it? As a writer, I'd take on the challenge with pleasure.

Agreed.

Whether this ends up being the case is another matter.

Okay so recap, it seems we've lost the battle? I dunno guys, it seems to me the real problem was that we thought we stood some sort of chance. This isn't just about mass effect and Shepard, which is about as far as our influence goes. We as the fans did have a Voice through Shepard and Mass Effect, but that's the farthest extent our influence really could've reached. And we did good, we battled it out and we made ourselves heard by pretty much the whole fandom. We got out there and our influence for Mass Effect Indoctrination to take precedence had to of made a dent of some kind. So basically we can say that we influenced how things turned out. However they have happened to turn out, we've been a part of that and shaped that. The problem is that in the aftermath, we still lost?

Or did we? I don't think it's over. Technically we could push again, we all could right now. We've lost according to the boundaries we've defined. If we really care about Mass Effect, we'd face the fact that we lost the official battle, and we'd take that recognition and respond with a new battle. One we've set fourth.

What I'm trying to say is that, by this point, it can no longer be about what Bioware intends. If we have assessed that Indoctrination Theory is a masterpiece and is hands down superior to what they are doing with the series, and that they're just doing it to milk a buck... could we really say we'd be in the wrong to take over and override it all to fight on Mass Effect's behalf and restore it to it's former glory?

i still think that bioware was pissed because some of us 'got' the ending. sending us off to andromeda smacks of evasion to me. did we lose? possibly, this ain't no fairytale. did shepard survive? only if you destroyed the reapers. but if you destroyed the reapers then how did we lose? why send us 2.5million light years away without knowing?

dorktainian wrote:i still think that bioware was pissed because some of us 'got' the ending.  sending us off to andromeda smacks of evasion to me.  did we lose?  possibly, this ain't no fairytale.  did shepard survive?  only if you destroyed the reapers. but if you destroyed the reapers then how did we lose?  why send us 2.5million light years away without knowing?  

I like to believe that Bioware nuked the end on purpose. I mean come on how can they not have seen a backlash. They knew exactly what it was the fans wanted and they had the EC in which half the fans shut up and didn't ask questions. That is when our support went down hill EVEN with Leviathan which added both points to both sides. With the last dlc out for ME3 that is what killed hope for anything for ME3 content wise.

We had a glimmer of hope for the next ME game yet still it is snuffed out and with this latest trailer it seem now Shepard is just a MONEY tool and not something that is meant to be held up too as a iconic video game character.

I know some of us are trying to see the good out of ME;A but there isn't any. It's brand new and yet i don't see how this whole game makes sense. Right now legions of new ME fans and even old ones are being indoctrinated by this "NEW" galaxy and it is sad that those that still point out the major flaws about ME3's end are shot down and are called trolls. Simply because of how they couldn't move on, or simply like control or synthesis options.

I like the trilogy and the endings as they are, I don't require a resolution. I'm just glad these games were as thought-provoking as they were. Kept me mulling over things as long as I did. And I still do, to some extent.

It's just that you can almost smell something going on there, and because of corporate and commercial bullshit that's stuff is probably never gonna see the light of day.

And that's such a waste.

Hudson and Drew K. (Most importantly him) are gone, I fully expect a near reboot and MAJOR retcons.

If you thought thermal clips and Dreadnought's operating in atmosphere were lore breaking or silly retcons...

Just you wait. MEA is gonna be filled with them.

TurianRebel212 wrote:Hudson and Drew K. (Most importantly him) are gone, I fully expect a near reboot and MAJOR retcons.

If you thought thermal clips and Dreadnought's operating in atmosphere were lore breaking or silly retcons...

Just you wait. MEA is gonna be filled with them.

Considering how the mass relays gave us QUICK travel......HOW are WE going to TRAVEL around a new galaxy WITHOUT THE MASS RELAYS? sure we have FTL but that still takes time.

Seriously we need to find Element Zero, Helium H-3, and so many more minerals and elements. Are we going back to ME1 guns since it makes no SENSE to carry thermal clips since we have no idea what might we encounter and IF we dooo run out of ammo.

WILL there be a limit of Biotics, will there be GETH? If this is before the Priority Earth i am sure some geth went with them. Will the other races that are barely reaching space flight gone with the? Did glyph go with the crew? How many civilizations populations go on this ship?

Why did we get new designs of the Mako, and armor when our guns look the same, Omi tool, will we have hordes of Media gel? WHY didn't the Reapers know about this plan when they found out about the Crucible, OR the Illusive Man?

IF this is after the endings which ending is cannon? WHY would anyone leave if the Reapers help rebuild the cycle in Control and synthesis? We see the galaxy being rebuilt, sure food won't be a problem since constantly you find assets for food for the races that can or can't east human food.

Speaking of food how much food is stored IN the ship, drinks, how do we know live is in this other galaxy, will you have to build farms? What is the possibility the Reapers have agents on the ship? What is the possibility Reapers are not following the ship? Did a Leviathan go with them? Did the drell go as well? Cerberus operatives? Own governments of races fighting for control?

Master Blaster wrote:

TurianRebel212 wrote:Hudson and Drew K. (Most importantly him) are gone, I fully expect a near reboot and MAJOR retcons.

If you thought thermal clips and Dreadnought's operating in atmosphere were lore breaking or silly retcons...

Just you wait. MEA is gonna be filled with them.

Considering how the mass relays gave us QUICK travel......HOW are WE going to TRAVEL around a new galaxy WITHOUT THE MASS RELAYS? sure we have FTL but that still takes time.

Seriously we need to find Element Zero, Helium H-3, and so many more minerals and elements. Are we going back to ME1 guns since it makes no SENSE to carry thermal clips since we have no idea what might we encounter and IF we dooo run out of ammo.

WILL there be a limit of Biotics, will there be GETH? If this is before the Priority Earth i am sure some geth went with them. Will the other races that are barely reaching space flight gone with the? Did glyph go with the crew?  How many civilizations populations go on this ship?

Why did we get new designs of the Mako, and armor when our guns look the same, Omi tool, will we have hordes of Media gel? WHY didn't the Reapers know about this plan when they found out about the Crucible, OR the Illusive Man?

IF this is after the endings which ending is cannon? WHY would anyone leave if the Reapers help rebuild the cycle in Control and synthesis? We see the galaxy being rebuilt, sure food won't be a problem since constantly you find assets for food for the races that can or can't east human food.

Speaking of food how much food is stored IN the ship, drinks, how do we know live is in this other galaxy, will you have to build farms? What is the possibility the Reapers have agents on the ship? What is the possibility Reapers are not following the ship? Did a Leviathan go with them? Did the drell go as well? Cerberus operatives? Own governments of races fighting for control?

At this point, I have just turned by brain on "EA logic" and just assuming Rule of Cool for any potential plot hole/lore break.

Frankly I'm not concerned with analyzing the fictional universe as if it were real life. Put differently, if they'd introduce a few retcons and problematic technicalities to be able to give us a true sequel to Mass Effect 3, then we couldn't care less about it, now would we?

That's how I feel anyway. I don't care traveling to Andromeda is infeasible, I just hate we go there in the first place.

Master Blaster wrote:

TurianRebel212 wrote:Hudson and Drew K. (Most importantly him) are gone, I fully expect a near reboot and MAJOR retcons.

If you thought thermal clips and Dreadnought's operating in atmosphere were lore breaking or silly retcons...

Just you wait. MEA is gonna be filled with them.

Considering how the mass relays gave us QUICK travel......HOW are WE going to TRAVEL around a new galaxy WITHOUT THE MASS RELAYS? sure we have FTL but that still takes time.

Seriously we need to find Element Zero, Helium H-3, and so many more minerals and elements. Are we going back to ME1 guns since it makes no SENSE to carry thermal clips since we have no idea what might we encounter and IF we dooo run out of ammo.

WILL there be a limit of Biotics, will there be GETH? If this is before the Priority Earth i am sure some geth went with them. Will the other races that are barely reaching space flight gone with the? Did glyph go with the crew?  How many civilizations populations go on this ship?

Why did we get new designs of the Mako, and armor when our guns look the same, Omi tool, will we have hordes of Media gel? WHY didn't the Reapers know about this plan when they found out about the Crucible, OR the Illusive Man?

IF this is after the endings which ending is cannon? WHY would anyone leave if the Reapers help rebuild the cycle in Control and synthesis? We see the galaxy being rebuilt, sure food won't be a problem since constantly you find assets for food for the races that can or can't east human food.

Speaking of food how much food is stored IN the ship, drinks, how do we know live is in this other galaxy, will you have to build farms? What is the possibility the Reapers have agents on the ship? What is the possibility Reapers are not following the ship? Did a Leviathan go with them? Did the drell go as well? Cerberus operatives? Own governments of races fighting for control?

Thought blurbs:

Use Reaper technology (or even upgraded technology using Reaper science) to get to Andromeda.

I'm thinking thermal clips are done with, at least as a focus. Or I'm hoping. In fact, I don't expect so very much of 'Mass of Gears of Wars Effect' to happen.

There will absolutely be biotics.

I want Geth. :)

I feel Glyph should only be involved if it'll be upgraded to important-character status.

No idea about populations except it'd probably exceed 100ks.

The 'new technology looking stuff even while the most rational way this could happen is if it happened mid-ME3' is interesting.
But here's a possibility (not claiming it, just wondering it) - if we get a large colony ship with many resources and high technology, I wouldn't consider it impossible to have US develop a new Mako ourselves in the story. 
Think how in Inquisition you don't start with a horse/mounts, but had to compete a short series of (optional in that case) sidequests in order to unlock the feature.
So there could still be older vehicles but we develop the new Mako on our journey.
Just using imagination here.

Why didn't the Reapers know? Illusive Man know? That's one of the most fucked up parts of all this. How it seems so pre-ME3, so mid-ME3, so post-ME3 at the same time. Whenever you speculate on one time period you run into walls that make other time periods make more sense, and the cycle continues.

Which ending? Most blatantly, Destroy. But not necessarily, we'd have to see.

I don't have anything to say about your last paragraph except that I like all of it.






This game seems stranger and stranger. On one hand, we have what could be a rather straightforward 'explore another galaxy in an ark ship' plot that could utterly sidestep almost everything we've previously known and experienced. On the other, that would be very fucked up for Bioware, who has a history (including even in their damn SWTOR expansions) of previous content setting up, even in very subtle ways, the reasoning and manipulations of what later happens. It only being as simple as 'running from the Reapers and doing something completely separate' or 'beat the Reapers and now expanding beyond the Milky Way because humanity' is... actually very unlikely. At least in themselves.

My wilder thoughts go to the A.R.K.C.O.N and its symbol. 

Citadel DLC having its 'con artist/man' (and whole cheezy 'conspiracy' plot, Leviathan trying lies to have you 'turn back' from the truth in that DLC). ARK.CON being very tessaracty, power over time and space?, new energy source? While the tessaract also has been used as the 'hypercube', a symbol of eternal and infinite imprisonment.

The Ark is a con? We know that mass effect technology itself was the Reaper Trap, so...



TLDR; new tech, new energy, greater power over time and space than before, a ship that looks like a mix of Reaper/Collector, Crucible(?), and Alliance/Council tech, and some possible hints of a greater system of control being in play.

I think we should travel around the Andromeda galaxy DA:Origins style.

*after hundredth trip from Orzammar to Denerim for no good reason at all*
Alistair: "How long have we been doing this?!"
Warden: "Not as long as you might think. The Blight hasn't even taken Lothering yet."
Alistair: "Huh. You don't think it's actually waiting for us to pick up allies before advancing, do you? That would be... oddly polite."
Warden: "Right. I should do something about that. Back to Orzammar!"
Alistair: "Walking again? Maker, what I wouldn't do for a horse..."

smash016 wrote:Frankly I'm not concerned with analyzing the fictional universe as if it were real life. Put differently, if they'd introduce a few retcons and problematic technicalities to be able to give us a true sequel to Mass Effect 3, then we couldn't care less about it, now would we?

That's how I feel anyway. I don't care traveling to Andromeda is infeasible, I just hate we go there in the first place.

I wouldn't mind if they take us there only to slap players in the face, 3/4 in, with the very fact that we never should have left.

A bigger version of "Why are you playing around on the Citadel and roaming around on side errands while everyone is dying on Earth?" We then take the tech/assets/knowledge gained from that excursion in Andromeda and use them back in the Milky Way.

Would be fun to see the reaction of, in some ways. The problem is we already got a version of this in ME3 and I wanted my waking up in ME3.



EDIT: I don't consider at least most of what I've written in these two posts to be Scary Door, just saying. Not considering (DAI SPOILER) 

Spoiler:

I just realized that going to Andromeda could've been an awesome part of destroying the Reapers. It gives our cycle something different. The previous cycle threw the Reapers off, let's jump into Andromeda and see what we can't amass over here. This being if they had decided to make the Reaper war about as extensive as they're played off as.

We keep hearing how the Reapers are so impossible to defeat that it took a species that had total galactic control, just to slip by them and have a single survivor ready for the next cycle. Every cycle they're so efficient, clean, and certain.

It's supposed to take YEARS. So if anything the fact that the Reaper war allegedly ended as soon as the Reapers showed up(ME3), is actually a lot more fucked up than saying we went to Andromeda to keep this fight going and to gain an actual advantage over these Demi-Gods.

Terramine wrote:I just realized that going to Andromeda could've been an awesome part of destroying the Reapers. It gives our cycle something different. The previous cycle threw the Reapers off, let's jump into Andromeda and see what we can't amass over here. This being if they had decided to make the Reaper war about as extensive as they're played off as.

We keep hearing how the Reapers are so impossible to defeat that it took a species that had total galactic control, just to slip by them and have a single survivor ready for the next cycle. Every cycle they're so efficient, clean, and certain.

It's supposed to take YEARS. So if anything the fact that the Reaper war allegedly ended as soon as the Reapers showed up(ME3), is actually a lot more fucked up than saying we went to Andromeda to keep this fight going and to gain an actual advantage over these Demi-Gods.

That's what could (not necessarily will.. but...) be the big thing. Andromeda could be out of the Reapers' domain. Explore.