Re: The Dragon Age Thread

[Rifneno]

RtO was Gaider's first "what? not ambiguous enough?!" retcon. In vanilla DAO, Loghain fucked over everyone at Ostagar because he was borderline insane megalomaniac. That's how it was. Period. No one that wasn't simply an enemy contested it. Flemeth confirmed it, and even Morrigan didn't suggest it despite the fact she would've spontaneously orgasmed at getting to rub such a thing in Alistair's face. She didn't defend Loghain to Alistair because she knew Loghain was simply evil.

Then along comes RtO, after Gaider has seen the community didn't view Loghain vs. Alistair as a tough decision. In Gaider's mind, everything must be a hard moral dilemma. Do you have corn flakes or french toast for breakfast? The lives of 12 orphans depend on your answer somehow. So when RtO comes rolling around, things take a complete 180. Now Cailan wasn't just naive, he was a traitor that was selling out Ferelden to Orlais. Also, he knew the battle was unwinnable and he was knowingly sacrificing his country's entire army to the darkspawn. Now Loghain is a hero! He saved some of the army from this completely insane battle! One wonders how Cailan was planning to sell out Ferelden to Orlais when he was also planning on committing mass suicide with his country's military, but do not question The Gaider. It makes sense because The Gaider says it makes sense, and fuck you. Now it's so obvious that Cailan was dooming Ferelden that Alistair doesn't even argue it. It's just an obvious fact. I mean, duh.

Have I mentioned lately that I have positively no respect whatsoever for Gaider or his writing ability?

Anyways. I don't think the qunari will factor into things much. Even if you're a failure at everything and give the Book of Jihad back to Osama bin Arishok, he still doesn't make it back to Par Vollen with the book. It's Dragon Age 2, did you think you'd get to make a choice with impact? Of course not. Isabella escapes and steals the book again. Why is this important? The Arishok is the supreme leader of the Qunari military. And he's basically exiled indefinitely. This kind of cuts their military off at the knees. So they're not likely in a position to take advantage of Thedas' Chantry-mage war. Then again, who knows what could happen? Because Gaider.

Legacy had a very interesting reveal at the end. Along with a retcon, because again, Gaider. But it's still interesting. Mark of the Assassin I don't know about. When I found out I wouldn't be able to kill the qunari bitch, I refused to buy it. As far as I'm concerned, the only appropriate response to "I'm qunari" is decapitation.

[Humakt]

Well it explains the whole conflict in DA3 and sets up the Qunari storyline, so I think you should play it before DA3, but maybe stick to the main-questline and the qunari-sidequests, the rest is a waste of time... kinda...
Mark of the Assassin and Legacy are relatively nice DLCs though, nothing groundbreaking, but better than the main-game, so you may want to consider buying those too

You should do most of the companion related quests. At least all of Aveline's.

[RavenEyry]

Why does return to ostagar give you Cailan's sword and shield when he was clearly a two handed sword usre?

[GethJuggernautMKII]

Why cant we get Duncan's armor? Why do DA:O light armors look like crap.

[RavenEyry]

I like the Dalish armour on females, but apart from that all light armours are virtually indistinguishable.

[Hrothdane]

This armor conversation makes me realize that there really isn't much armor variety in general in DA:O compared to other games; light armor just gets it the worst.

[Humakt]

Why does return to ostagar give you Cailan's sword and shield when he was clearly a two handed sword usre?

Because Cailan preferred to use his two-handed sword instead in the battle.

[Andromidius]

Oh wait, was Return to Ostagar not that extra mission in DA: O where you recover Cailen's armour and bury his body?

I'm confused now.

[Hrothdane]

Oh wait, was Return to Ostagar not that extra mission in DA: O where you recover Cailen's armour and bury his body?

I'm confused now.

That is the mission.

[DSharrah]

Anyone think that we might get some new DA 3 info at E3 this year? Seems like they released the little bit of concept art ages ago...

[Norlond]

Could you also not have any speeches be dominated by the dominate tone without input.

There's no such thing as dominant tone any longer. Tone exists for roleplaying choices in the tone wheels-- that's it. We don't track it. As I said, options off the choice wheel are neutral-toned unless the tone is already implicit, and any auto-dialogue (I'll use that phrase, since it seems to have stuck) we need to use is also neutral-only.

- Source
So the protagonist won't have a personality anymore, kinda sad, sarcastic Hawke was funny sometimes

I'm not sure I understand-- is there a tone wheel seperate from the dialogue choices?

No, it's not separate. We term the dialogue wheel which has tone choices to be the "tone wheel" and the dialogue wheel which has action choices to be the "action wheel". In the former your choices are mainly roleplaying... you're deciding how to say something, or what topic to address, but you're not doing anything. In the latter your choices are what to do about something (or expressing an opinion which doesn't involve tone).

In DA2, options on the choice wheel had a single paraphrase but three different spoken lines which varied based on the player character's dominant tone. As I mentioned previously, this made it difficult to come up with a paraphrase for all three (aside from being fairly expensive, wordcount-wise). While the answer could have been to paraphrase each line separately, in the end we decided the content was better used elsewhere.

In DA3, we are adding the "reaction wheel" to the previous two categories. This covers any situation where an emotional response is called for, where the three tones don't cover the needed territory (sadness, shock, rage... or just being stoic if one prefers), but we haven't shown it yet nor will I discuss it much.

But those are the three basic dialogue wheels with which we work, and the terms are specific to us writers. They're not ones you need to use. From the perspective of the player, one dialogue wheel is the same as any other.

- Source
Looks like DA:I's dialogue wheel will be multifunctional, with Choice-, Tone- and Dialogue-Wheel... hmmm, that sounds interesting but can easily be fucked up

[Lombus]

Looks like DA:I's dialogue wheel will be multifunctional, with Choice-, Tone- and Dialogue-Wheel... hmmm, that sounds interesting but can easily be fucked up

It's BioWare we're talking about...if anyone can screw a perfect idea or a game it's them.

[RavenEyry]

I think the point is the wheel will be similar to 2, but not track the personality for autodialogue anymore. I hope this means they're toning down auto and not ramping it up like ME3, but I doubt it.

Damn players ruining your story with their options.

[Norlond]

On elven ruins, I'm still not completely convinced that the Primeval Thaig wasn't really the ruins of Arlathan. I remember having a big thread full of pictures, IT-style speculations, ect. about it. Basically the premise was that the horror show that Tevinter was doing in Kirkwall was that ritual to sink Arlathan. We thought it was dwarven because it was underground but there's no solid proof. And there was an odd bit of very elven stuff down there. More importantly, the codex description of the Profane sounds exactly like the victims of Arlathan's disaster would've said.

I wanted to bring this up again, because I think it's a pretty interesting idea, I found the BSN-thread btw:

I had started this in another thread, but it was pretty off-topic for that one, and after having spent the day on this I thought it warranted its own thread.

I propose that the Primeval Thaig is part of the remains of Arlathan, which elven legends claim Tevinter made "the ground swallow whole." I know this theory has been brought up before but I've never seen much supporting it beyond "the thaig is old and weird." I did a bit of digging (no pun intended) to find supporting evidence as well as data challenging some of the counterpoints I've seen made against it being Arlathan.

- First and foremost, an item found the thaig that first got me suspicious. "Carved Ring of the Vhenadahl." Vhenadahl is the "tree of the people" that you see in alienages. Like much of elven lore, most of it is forgotten to the world and thus not available to us. All that we're told of the Vhenadahl is that it was said to be a symbol of Arlathan. At the very least, it all but assures us there were elves living in this city.

- Another item you'll find in the thaig is a pair of boots called "Ghillie Brogues." These are a real type of footware. They originated in Scotland and Ireland and made of untanned leather. Their distinguishing feature is that they have holes to drain water out of them after the wearer goes through watery terrain such as a bog. I doubt I need to tell you that there aren't many bogs several miles underground.

- Then there's the infamous lyrium idol itself. Take a good look at it, here if you wish. There are two figures, one a female standing and another of unknown gender only seen from the torso up and only from the back, with his head against her side and a large circular object behind them. The most glaring oddity of the idol is that these figures are not dwarves. There isn't enough detail to know whether they're elven or human but they are far too tall to be dwarves. Why would the dwarves worship a deity in a human or elven form?

I think it's a good possibility the idol was made to depict an event mentioned in the codex "Elgar'nan: God of Vengeance," which I'll quote for you here:

"Long ago, when time itself was young, the only things in existence were the sun and the land. The sun, curious about the land, bowed his head close to her body, and Elgar'nan was born in the place where they touched."

Elgar'nan is the closest thing the Elven pantheon has to Zeus. In other words, that scene was the origin of their gods. An argument could certainly be made that the lyrium idol is a representation of that important moment. The woman in the picture stands for the land or Earth, the circular object behind her the sun, and the figure appearing only from the torso-up being Elgar'nan halfway through his creation. Of course, with any art it's a matter of interpretation.

- Finally, there may be a clue in the thaig's trash. In the rest of the Deep Roads trash such as "Weathered Dwarven Clan Pin" is common. In the Primeval Thaig there is none to be found. If you look into the game's data files you'll find the typical Deep Roads trash is categorized under "dwv" clearly for "dwarven." Primeval Thaig trash has a different internal label, "prf." While there are a few so-called dwarven items in the prf trash, they're all marked as "odd" or "strange" unlike dwarven items from the normal Deep Roads.

- The Profane's codex.

We who are forgotten, remember,

We clawed at the rock until our fingers bled,

We cried out for justice, but were unheard,

Our children wept in hunger,

And so we feasted upon the gods.

Here we wait, in aeons of silence.

We few, we profane.

The most interesting parallel I want to point out is to "We cried out for justice, but were unheard." Now read the codex "Arlathan: Part Two." Specifically, this line. "The elves called to their ancient gods, but there was no answer." A striking similarity, no?

There are some other ways to interpret some of this as well. "We who are forgotten" may be a reference to how the Arlathan culture was lost (forgotten) after Tevinter's attacks. God knows it's hard to meet an elf who doesn't refer to their culture as forgotten. "We clawed at rock until our fingers bled." This obviously suggests they were trapped underground. Sure, there could be a tunnel collapse that sealed in a dwarven city. But I would think dwarves would be prepared for that; they did create the Deep Roads after all. Besides, crying out for justice indicates that whatever happened was an intentional attack that trapped them underground (and at a time when even primitive explosives weren't discovered). Tevinter sinking the city would certainly qualify as that.

- This would also explain what Tevinter was doing in Kirkwall with all the blood pools for magical energy. They were gathering the ridiculous amount of magical power required to sink Arlathan. I know the response here, "they were doing that to invade the Golden city." Which brings me to counterpoints.

- Quote the Enigma of Kirkwall, "Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else?" This could be taken a few ways, but it certainly seems to imply that whatever Tevinter did in Kirkwall, it happened after they failed to capture the Golden City.

Also this entry, "Access has not been easy, and I fear my disguise will not bear great scrutiny. But I saw the records the templars say do not exist. The blood of countless slaves was spilled beneath the city in sacrifice. Whole buildings were built upon lakes of blood. The sewers have grooves where blood would flow, all leading down. The scale is hard to fathom.

A blood mage can channel great power from a simple cut. At least a thousand unfortunates died here every year for centuries. For what ungodly purpose would one need so much power?"

Compare this to the codex "The Cardinal Rules of Magic" (as well as other sources, but that was the easiest I found), "Similarly, even when you send your mind into the Fade, your body remains behind. Only once has this barrier been overcome, and reputedly the spell required two-thirds of the lyrium in the Tevinter Imperium as well as the lifeblood of several hundred slaves. The results were utterly disastrous." Several hundred slaves. Why would the Chantry lie and claim that Tevinter used several hundred slaves when they actually used perhaps a thousand times that? Unless the interpretation that they already attempted to invade the Golden City was accurate, meaning Tevinter had almost exhausted its vast lyrium reserves on something else so they needed to rely on lakes of blood for this spell.

Lastly regarding the Enigma of Kirkwall, there is this, "The magisters had hundreds of mages deep below Kirkwall. They lived and researched here, far from the scrutiny of common men.

Many ancient cities specialized in arcane research, but why did Kirkwall hide its efforts here? Why go to such great pains to keep it out of sight? Were they a cabal of renegade magisters? Or was this a special project of the archon?" Whatever they were doing here, they were hiding its preparation. Why hide their attempt to enter the Golden City? But if they were planning to destroy an enemy city, it would make perfect sense to hide their efforts lest the enemy discover their evil plans.

- "But Arlathan was located in a forest north of Antiva." There is indeed a forest there called Arlathan Forest. But I ask, is New England next to England? "Arlathan" translates into "This place I love." It's easy to see such a name being reused. In the "Arlathan: Part One" codex it states that "And at the center of the world stood the great city of Arlathan." It could mean a metaphorical center, certainly. But if we look at a map of all Thedas, you'll note that Kirkwall is not far from the center. More importantly, note the Sundermount codex. "Legend says it was the site of the final battle between the Tevinter Imperium of old and the ancient empire of elves that perished with Arlathan." If Arlathan was on the nothern coast, why did they make their final stand at a mountain hundreds of miles south, near Kirkwall?

I rarely have much confidence in theorycrafting. But so many things that we didn't understand make sense if this was part of Arlathan...

Wow that is really well thought out and interesting...and although I have a limited knowledge of DA lore, I have a few questions:

1. Do the time lines match up? I mean the Primeval Thaig is OLD...do we know when Arlathan was lost or when the Magisters tried to enter the golden city?

2. I seem to recall dwarven architecture inside the Thaig (e.g. statues and what not). Were there dwarves in Arlathan, or did they come to the ruins later?

3. Your research is really good, so try to take it one step further: There seems to be a connection between the primeval thaig and the red lyrium (e.g. the idol was on a pedestal in an Important Room (tm))...do you have a theory on what that connection is, or how it was formed?

overall though, very impressive!

Thank ye. :)

1. (Legacy Spoilers BTW) Sadly, we don't have a good timeline of most of the ancient events. And the ones we do have seem unreliable. We were told in-game that the magisters invaded the Golden City around 800 TE, which began the First Blight. The Grey Wardens were founded late in that Blight, which lasted about 200 years. Those events supposedly took place 1000-1200 years before present day Thedas. But in Legacy we find out a tainted magister was imprisoned by the Wardens nearly 2,000 years ago. 800 years is... a lot of time to misplace. So the few records we do have are sometimes grossly inaccurate. But we have none on the sinking of Arlathan.

2. The statues in the Primeval Thaig itself (not the Deep Roads leading to it) were totally unlike any we've seen. I searched in vain hoping to find a link from them Elven lore, then Dwarven and Tevinter lore even if it would bomb my theory. They don't even really look like humanoid figures. I have no idea what they are. I was going to make a mention that it looked like those statues were made of the black rock common to Free Marches' surface but not the Deep Roads, however I thought "they're black too" was kind of thin evidence hehe. There is a lot of reused terrain in the Primeval Thaig that's also seen in the Deep Roads, but then again this game recycles terrain like none I've ever seen. There is a golem in there, and I have no real explanation for that. It's also interesting to note the game's internal workings sometimes refer to Profane as "rubble golems."

3. I do, but with no supporting evidence I didn't want to cloud up that post with it. You'll note that veins of red lyrium are coming through the walls of the Primeval Thaig. At first I thought perhaps lyrium was some kind of plant life, growing extremely slowly, because it was clearly there after the place was built but doesn't seem to be a decoration. After drawing the conclusion that the Thaig is Arlathan, my theory is that the way Tevinter sunk it was possessing the lyrium with blood magic, the tainted lyrium wrapping itself around Arlathan and simply dragging it underground like the tentacles of some monstrously huge demon.

Just another point possibly in favor of the Thaig not being of dwarven origin... doesn't Bartrand tell Hawke that it was like nothing he'd seen dwarves build before, and dwarves aren't the type to change much even over long spans of time. It could be interpreted as Bartrand not believing that it was built by dwarves.

Perhaps the idol got corrupted along with the rest of the lyrium when the city was cast down. Or some surviving elves made it as a booby trap of sorts if their conquerors ever came by.

Should dwarves have had the internal magic necessary to turn into the profane?

Ahh, I forgot about what Bartrand said. He had another gem, "We're well beneath the Deep Roads." The Primeval Thaig is not part of the Deep Roads, it's just accessible through them after who knows how long.

And yeah, Bartrand was completely confused by the place. "Nothing in this thaig makes sense!" he says. It wasn't just a neighboring civilization with slightly different ways and beliefs, it was totally different. Marking he didn't recognize, no paragon type of culture, ect. But typical Bartrand, he's not concerned about the archaeological find of the... ever, his first reaciton is "I hope they kept their valuables close!" *smack Bartrand* Shame he turned so early. Varric was always a surface dwarf, Bartrand was born and educated in Orzammar and would've been a fountain of valuable input if he wasn't a murderous greedy ****.

The magic is another good point. Rock Wraiths are capable of being possessed by a demon, dwarves aren't. At least not usually. Remember Anders' dialogue in Act II, "If he wasn't a dwarf I'd think a demon did this." The codex for the Primeval Thaig, a recounting of the scavengers that first found the thaig after the First Blight, sheds more doubt about an origin of a magicless race.

He spoke of great statues and temples--temples! He spoke of things that could have only been made of magic and of impossible ruins untouched by darkspawn. He described creatures the likes of which we've never seen.

A religion worshipping deities rather than ancestors, and evidence of magic from the inhabitants. If it was dwarves who lived there, they must've had the gift. Perhaps the most eyebrow raising point is "untouched by darkspawn." The darkspawn are actively avoiding the thaig. What. The. Hell.

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.

I don't know what "clearly of dwarven make" means. Admittedly that goes against the Arlathan theory, unless there was a connection between the two more than we know. The dwarves are good at keeping records though, at least moreso than other races. With the exception of something that embarrasses them (Dwarven noble origin). So why wouldn't they have some reliable records about their dealings with the ancient elves? Very strange indeed.

"Dressed in a manner I've never seen" and "could not identify it or the substance from which it was made" I may have an answer to. The codex for the Ancient Elven Armor in DAO (Did I mention I spent the whole damned day combing elven lore? /sigh):

"This armor was made for temple guards in a time when the Creators still spoke to the elves. The techniques of its forging, even the name of the metal it is forged from, have long since faded from memory."

- The BSN thread

[Raistlin Majere]

Wow interesting stuff.

It is a shame DA2 did not get more time to iron out the problems it had, because there was a lot of good things in it as well, might have to go through it again soon. Hopefully DA3 gets the time it deserves (though it seems so right now).

Now I don't know if there is anything on this in the expanded universe, but a thing I hope for is a answer to the question of Dragons intelligence in the DA universe.

While the codex of DA:O claimed Dragons had dolphin level intelligence it noted the oddity of cults dedicated to Dragons springing up near dragons and the dragons tolerating their presence.

Awakening then added two drakes who used Blood Magic.

And finally DA2 has a dragon which seems to attack the quarry in retaliation for the drakes you killed there.

Not much, but my fascination with dragons make me hope for mmore

[Norlond]

Wow interesting stuff.

ikr?^^ I read some pages on that thread and the people there were making some really interesting and awesome points; also Gaider posted something there

(though it seems so right now).

Well it looks like it'll be released in 2014, I guess that's enough time?

No idea about the whole dragon intelligence thing, I just know that the archdemon isn't exactly dumb

Also, my main-Warden and my main-Hawke

[DSharrah]

@Norlond - Loved that discussion about DA2...lore wise there are some very interesting things going on in DA2 - things that are only subtly hinted at, that when coddled together give a glimpse of a very big picture. The Thaig was only one of those things - but also one of the most compelling. I would remind some that Elves living underground isn't unheard of...in fact the Dalish Elven Origin and Witch Hunt from DA:O both deal hevily with lore that suggests that very thing. I don't know if it will ever get a full answer...but is more than worth the time to take speculate.

[Norlond]

I would remind some that Elves living underground isn't unheard of..

*cough*Cadash Thaig*cough*Cad'halash*cough*

Commander Regnar of House Cadash,

You were wise to send the relic you uncovered. The Shaperate has compared the carvings on it to various records, and believe them to be of elven origin, possibly thousands of years old. I would advise that you cease repair work on the warrior training grounds immediately and continue investigation. A team will be dispatched from Kal-Sharok as soon as possible.

--Shaper Warrek

The excavations are going well. I think Shaper Warrek secretly hopes that the artifacts will lead him to the lost city of Arlathan, despite Tevinter records that insist on its complete obliteration. Even if he found the site of the city, there would be little remaining of any worth. As for the artifacts, they must have come to this area by trade. Cadash Thaig is old, built upon an ancient settlement called Cad'halash. Lots of junk can accumulate over that much time, even elven junk.

--From Shaper Assistant Shalla's journal

Dyer,

Got the carvings. These two depict elves forming an alliance with the Cad'halash dwarves, after the destruction of Arlathan. Scholars say it's proof that they took refuge here to escape the Imperium. Should get a great price for this from collectors and historians.

And I almost got caught running these things to your man. They'll hang me if they find out. I want a bigger cut.. fifty or we're done.

--A letter from an excavation worker

We thought the Imperium found the elves hidden in Cad'halash, and destroyed them, but it doesn't add up. The thaig was destroyed with conventional dwarven weaponry, not magical forces. No supernatural means melted the stone and no immense forces pulverized the pillars.

We uncovered shields (among other things) bearing the heraldry of old Kal Sharok houses. We destroyed Cad'halash--our own people. The only remaining conclusion is that Kal Sharok learned that they were sheltering elves and, knowing it would jeopardize their alliance with the Tevinter Imperium, took steps to cover it up.

Thus far, there has been no evidence to contradict this theory, but it has split the Shaperate. Some wish to enter it into the Memories, while others demand that it lies forgotten in the dark halls of the Roads.

--From the notes of Shaper Warrek

[DSharrah]

@Norlond - I know...its a shame that some of that really good lore stuff ended up being overshadowed by so many other elements of DA 2...

[Norlond]

I still have hope that Gaider and the other writers keep all their sub-plots in mind... maybe they have something like that language catalogue where they list all elven, qunari, dwarven, whatever words they used? Something like a list of loose ends?

After all, Gaider at least confirmed that the Primeval Thaig will be important later on

I have two things to say:

1) Excellent, well thought-out post. Nice conjecture. I like conjecture.

2) The Primeval Thaig, and what it signfies, will have importance in the future. Just FYI.

3) There's something you need to...

Oh, wait. Two things. Right! I'll stop there.

- Source

[DSharrah]

I still have hope that Gaider and the other writers keep all their sub-plots in mind... maybe they have something like that language catalogue where they list all elven, qunari, dwarven, whatever words they used? Something like a list of loose ends?

After all, Gaider at least confirmed that the Primeval Thaig will be important later on

I have two things to say:

1) Excellent, well thought-out post. Nice conjecture. I like conjecture.

2) The Primeval Thaig, and what it signfies, will have importance in the future. Just FYI.

3) There's something you need to...

Oh, wait. Two things. Right! I'll stop there.

- Source

Agreed.

[Norlond]

[DSharrah]

Was so excited to see Morrigan back! And is that some new darkspawn that fall from the sky in the trailer? But not out until Fall 2014 - it better be damn epic!

[Rifneno]

A lot of people mentioned the "archdemon" in the trailer... I don't think that's an archdemon. It doesn't look taint ravaged. And last archdemon used some sort of purple corruption looking breath weapon. That dragon has a traditional fire breath weapon. It may simply be a random high dragon. It could also be Flemeth.

[dorktainian]

i thought the trailer was underwhelming to be honest.

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