GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

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GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by BlueLogic on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:18 pm

Linkage:  http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/epd6xc/the-final-verdict-mass-effect-3

I thought it was interesting to hear the various staff members over at GT spout off about the ending of ME3.  While I'm obviously biased, I found again and again those dissatisfied with the ending to have the far more persuasive and superior argument.  Those who enjoyed it seemed either to overlook it as best they could and focus on the journey, or have really weird philosophical underpinnings.

Rohan Rivas, for instance, was satisfied with the ending because "Come on, games are art, and with that it's up to us to accept a developer's idea of what it envisions the end of the game to be...and digest it accordingly.  Sure it's subjective, but I found the ending to Mass Effect 3 to be totally appropriate for the game.  Fate provides no meaningful variation, no matter which choices you make in life, and no matter what you did throughout the game it doesn't really matter in the final moments.  I'm okay with that because it's about the journey and not about the end."

Meaningless drivel.  I did digest their vision of the ending...and soon thereafter vomited in my mouth.  Also, what a perspective on life he must have to utter the statement, "Fate provides no meaningful variation, no matter which choices you make in life".  Deep stuff there.  Get your shovels out.

Normally I like Kyle Bosman.  He's adorable, really.  But making light of every moment in the Mass Effect series that led up to the ending is a permanent strike on his record.

I don't mean to sound like I'm ragging on the GT staff, I'm not, but I expected more.  Bloodworth made great points, and Speer's original assertion basically echos my own problems with the original endings, but Daniel is the only one who seems to have much conviction at all.  Also disappointed that IT didn't come up, but the topic was the "original ending" so I suppose it was somewhat limited to "literal interpretation".  Anyway, thoughts?  

P.S.  I guess the one takeaway from this is that ME is powerful enough to warrant a lengthy discussion on a prominent gaming site a year an a half after its release, and almost six months after the release of its final DLC.  So, it's not just us still talking about it.


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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Raistlin Majere on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:29 pm

Off course it warrants talking about it, if solely to remind everyone what not to do in a videogame ending.

Also is Rohan Rivas for real? I can respect that he believes in fate, however a videogame which focuses on choices should never rail road in accordance to fate.

Sure it can have fate as a theme (just look at Bioshock Infinite) but if the game is built up to have your choices matter (which Bioshock Infinite was not) then saying fate is unchanging is just a cop out.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:01 pm

I think you can only argue the philosophy of the ending if it was well made. Whether you agree or disagree with the message of the literal endings doesn't change the fact they're out of nowhere, full of plot holes and retcons and generally shoddy all round.

It's still bad whatever you think of the meaning and such.
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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by dorktainian on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:04 pm

i sense a pre-emptive suck-up by gametrailers to get some decent gossip about mass effect 4.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Fur28 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:37 am

It surprised me how many of the staff thought the ending was satisfactory, even on the review one of the first things they say about the story is that the ending is dissapointing.
But in the Facebook poll they made, the ending being dissapointing won :D

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Hrothdane on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:49 am

dork wrote:i sense a pre-emptive suck-up by gametrailers to get some decent gossip about mass effect 4.

I actually work in gaming journalism. While it's easy to think that the business works like that--and I even thought it did myself starting out--it really doesn't. Developers and publishers in the industry care mostly about how quickly you can turn around information/reviews/etc... and how effective you are at spreading it. They don't care if you give every one of their games a 10/10 or write articles defending their products if you do so weeks or months after the fact. Video game sales are very front-loaded and drop off really fast.

The sad truth is, they probably really believe everything they said. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetance" and all that.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Rifneno on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:53 am

Misanthropy.  Sometimes it just makes sense.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by magnetite on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:17 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Sure it can have fate as a theme (just look at Bioshock Infinite) but if the game is built up to have your choices matter (which Bioshock Infinite was not) then saying fate is unchanging is just a cop out.

The entire game is the end of the trilogy. I personally did see my choices having an affect during the course of the game. Too many people expected a unique ending just for them based on their choices. Let's be realistic though. If this game sold 4.7 million copies, and if they made one ending cinematic cutscene every minute, it would take roughly 10 years to make all of them.


Mass Effect 3 main site

Mass Effect 3 will react to each decision you make as you play through a truly unique experience of your own creation.


Too many people misread this as:

Last 5 minutes of Mass Effect 3 will react to each decision you make as you play through a truly unique ending of your own creation.

There's no way they'd be able to cram those 1000s of variables (above link) into the last 5 minutes or last hour. So they made them have an impact during the course of the game.

The thing is they said "your choices would affect the ending", but they left out "how" that would be presented. Whether it be a cutscene, slideshow, or a simple EMS value. I guess it was a simple EMS value. Had they said "your choices would be presented in the form of a cutscene" and people didn't get a cutscene, then we'd have a case. I think the words they used was "EMS value and previous choices". Thing was, the choices were hidden behind an EMS value. Major choices were a high EMS, while less important stuff was a low EMS value (eg. Grunt or any squadmate if alive was worth 25 EMS). The other thing was, things like saving the council got playtime during the game. Also, if you save them both times, they give you the Destiny Ascension in the final battle.

This doesn't happen if you killed the first council in ME1. Yeah, the Council kind of forgives you for killing the previous Council, however, their vocal tone is they sound very pissed. Unlike the first Council was all "hey, thanks again!".


Bioware even said would have a great effect (Rachni cough) there is almost no difference.

Not quite sure what people were expecting there. We didn't see Rachni fighting those Ravager things. You did see a couple Rachni missions. The Queen is not the same one as the Breeder, although it looks the same. Heck, Rachni were indoctrinated over 1000 years ago. Reapers may have enslaved this Breeder from back 1000 years ago with the Rachni Wars. It's definitely possible. See below:

Same thing with the Rachni Queen vs Breeder. Breeder is very different in the tone, and Admiral Hackett talks about how it was such a bad decision to kill the Queen, then gain the support of the Reaper Breeder (which you don't get the support if you choose to leave it in the cave. Walk away, in other words).

If I recall I don't believe that if you kill the Queen and gain the Breeder, there isn't a war asset where they give you 100 Rachni workers to help with the Crucible.

That's a pretty big difference compared to some smaller choices, like saving Shiala or the colonists. All you got was an e-mail from her, and 25 war assets. That's it. She wasn't technically in the game. No missions or anything like the Rachni stuff.

A sidequest I did in the first game only accounted to one line of dialogue.

I kind of look at it like this: Mass Effect 3's story structure is like a book. Each mission or side quest is a chapter. At the end of each chapter, you get a resolution to each choice an such. In the final chapter, you essentially decide the fate of Shepard.

Heck, even the original dark energy ending only had two choices instead of three, I believe. People would still bring up the argument "my choices didn't matter".

A guy by the name of Brandon on this site (bottom of the page) explains that Mass Effect has never been about having a unique ending for every choice in the final minutes of a trilogy. It's about the "mass effect" each choice has. Unfortunately, people see the ending as the same cutscene with a color swap though. There's a lot more to it than that. People just needed to use their imagination a bit.

Or you can read my example I made a few months back.


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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:30 am

Magnetite:

I am not asking for wholly unique endings for every little choice made in the series, what I am asking is that the game at least tried to do something just a tiny bit more than 3 explosions of different colors.

I did not mind how most of the choices were handled throughout the game, it is the ending that is a problem as even with the biggest changes, changes Bioware even said would have a great effect (Rachni cough) there is almost no difference.

Hukbum below probably said it well. We have this massive army of creatures from across the galaxy, united against the Reapers...but aside from the "core" races we do not see any of them in action. Like if you saved both the Quarians and Geth you don't even get the Geth in the forward base camp.


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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by hukbum on Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:49 am

magnetite wrote:There's no way they'd be able to cram those 1000s of variables (above link) into the last 5 minutes or last hour. So they made them have an impact during the course of the game.
Sorry, but no. There are not all variables needed in the ending. It's a simple yes/no database thing. The problem with it might have something to do with videos (rachni fighting whatever, krogan storming whatever ...), that might have been a shitload of work, but since you "solved" many things where old variables where rendered meaningless (not in a bad way, they just got "used"). During the the end run I think you'd only need 25-50 variables.
I know I'm simplifying things here, but the endrun was so fucking empty and they even put money and time in presenting new folks that I don't understand why they didn't just use what they allready had. And it can't have something to do with the often adressed 1000s of variables, because 95-99% where just not needed in the end mission.

Just some examples of what I'm talking about:
Conrad - solved during playtime
Genophage cure - reduced to 1 because they will fight, no matter how goofy you handle it.
Geth/Quarian - two variables with a strengh indicator - Geth alive? Quarians alive?
As you can see it's a simple database entry with an indicator for the outcome. Just a yes/no check to trigger an event.
I think the EMS points where designed to display the mentioned "strengh indicator" in the first place, but never got really used for whatever reason.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Rifneno on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:51 am

magnetite wrote:The entire game is the end of the trilogy. I personally did see my choices having an affect during the course of the game. Too many people expected a unique ending just for them based on their choices. Let's be realistic though. If this game sold 4.7 million copies, and if they made one ending cinematic cutscene every minute, it would take roughly 10 years to make all of them.

Oh yeah, now it's coming back to me. Mmm, fanboyism. Hey, let's take a look at what Bioware said.

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.” - Casey Hudson

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them." - Casey Hudson

"So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.” - Casey Hudson

Oh yeah, it's totally unrealistic for us to expect more than the same short and shitty ending with a palette swap for everyone. Keep telling yourself that.

But hey, I'm sure the millions of fans BW lost with their lying bullshit won't matter in the long run. If they lose 2 million customers, at $60 a game that's only $120,000,000 that the few rabid fanboys such as yourself will have to raise. If you made $10/hr, that'd take 1,370 straight years of work (tax free) to make up for the cost of the loss of fans who hold them accountable for their actions. Woah! What are you doing wasting time here?!

Too many people misread this as:

Last 5 minutes of Mass Effect 3 will react to each decision you make as you play through a truly unique ending of your own creation.

There's no way they'd be able to cram those 1000s of variables (above link) into the last 5 minutes or last hour. So they made them have an impact during the course of the game.

Right, I'm sure we also just "misread" the part about no A, B, and C endings. Although I suppose that's true in a way. A, B, and C would imply a meaningful distinction between A, B, and C. We got A, A, and A.

Heck, even the original dark energy ending only had two choices instead of three, I believe. People would still bring up the argument "my choices didn't matter".

They would if we had an actual epilogue instead of SPECULATIONS 4 EVERY1. That's why some people are actually happy with Extended Cut. People didn't expect a hundred ending choices, they expected to see an epilogue with some variances of their choices. It didn't have to be CGI like you're claiming. DAO did it just fine with its 1990's-style text epilogues on a background. This was perfectly doable, and it's what they promised us. We damn well have a right to receive it.

A guy by the name of Brandon on this site (bottom of the page) explains that Mass Effect has never been about having a unique ending for every choice in the final minutes of a trilogy. It's about the "mass effect" each choice has. Unfortunately, people see the ending as the same cutscene with a color swap though. There's a lot more to it than that. People just needed to use their imagination a bit.

Jesus tapdancing Christ, it's like talking to Ninja Stan. No wonder Andro raged out on you.



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Anyone who says to "use their imagination," whether it be you about what Gamble told us we'd straight up get direct answers to, or whether it be Jessica Merizan about Shepard reuniting with their LI like she straight up told us we'd see in EC, can go fervently fuck themselves. If I wanted to headcanon it, I'd write a fanfic. When we're directly promised real answers, "use your imagination" is not even within the same universe as acceptable.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by magnetite on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:22 pm

I'll try and explain this stuff:

I think the whole simplifying the ending choices into an EMS number comes down to budget reasons. I don't know how much Bioware budgeted for this game, but whatever it was, they didn't have enough money for doing a cutscene, as opposed to a slideshow. Essentially stuff like Collector Base, LOTSB, as well as other stuff came down to a side mission. Actually, in one playthrough, if you flat out didn't do LOTSB, Feron actually died.

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them." - Casey Hudson

Oh yeah, it's totally unrealistic for us to expect more than the same short and shitty ending with a palette swap for everyone. Keep telling yourself that.

I'm pretty sure that means the whole game is the ending. I mean, people got to the last 5 minutes, saw the ABC choices, and thought that's what he meant. Kind of harks back to the whole whether the last 5 minutes is the ending, or whether the entire game was the ending. Obviously people playing this game believed that the last 5 minutes was, and they expected their choices to have an impact during the last 5 minutes when the entire game did that for them.

Not sure if you guys are aware of this, but RPGs have been known for the "illusion of choice". You can pick and choose a lot of stuff, but it's all along a guided path.


DAO did it just fine with its 1990's-style text epilogues on a background.

See, DAO is fantasy, where as Mass Effect is sci-fi. I don't know how many sci-fi series or movies I've watched that showed me what happened to all the characters when it's all said and done, but let's not forget, in Mass Effect, Shepard is the main character. All those characters and squadmates were just along for the ride. I watched X-Files for 9 years and they only showed what happened to Mulder and Scully (main characters, like Shepard). They didn't show what happened to Skinner, Doggett, Marita, as well as many other characters who were still alive at the end of the series. No one took to the streets demanding a ROTK epilogue though. We just accepted what they gave us.

What would happen if Bioware made a slide showing Grunt going back to Tuchanka and doing [insert idea here], but people didn't want Grunt doing [insert idea], instead they wanted him doing something else.

The original ending was written so that it was a suicide mission where you were most likely not going to come back alive from. In 98% of the endings, everyone dies. So they didn't do an epilogue. I'm sure people wouldn't want to see their favorite Asari scientist get turned into a banshee in the control or synthesis endings. People would be furious.


“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.” - Mike Gamble

We did get answers to a lot of stuff. I suppose people took this as answers to every single thing including the whole ending explanation and every single question answered and tied up in a knot, so that there's nothing left to think about.  


Anyone who says to "use their imagination," whether it be you about what Gamble told us we'd straight up get direct answers to, or whether it be Jessica Merizan about Shepard reuniting with their LI like she straight up told us we'd see in EC, can go fervently fuck themselves. If I wanted to headcanon it, I'd write a fanfic. When we're directly promised real answers, "use your imagination" is not even within the same universe as acceptable.

Well, I don't want to sound odd here, but one of the staples of the sci-fi genre is being able to use your imagination. Not everything will be spelled out for us. Heck, even with RPGs are all about using your imagination as well.

This article talks about how the ending was brilliant. But again, with the whole "use your imagination" thing, people might not agree with it.

According to this (don't take offense to the title).

Basically, if we take a scale of ambiguity, with the ending of ‘Lost’ being the most ambiguous, and The Architect scene from ‘The Matrix’ as the least, you want to be somewhere in the middle, but always want to be closer to ‘Lost’ than to The Architect. This is because The Architect scene is the worst scene in the history of science fiction movies, if not film in general

What most people wanted was an Architect type scene where they'd have all their questions answered, everyone went back to their homeworld and went on with their lives. Or at least that's what I assumed, with people wanting a DAO epilogue to show you what happens to everyone after the war.


We have this massive army of creatures from across the galaxy, united against the Reapers...but aside from the "core" races we do not see any of them in action. Like if you saved both the Quarians and Geth you don't even get the Geth in the forward base camp.

Well, there was one scene which did see an Asari, Turian, Salarian, etc trying to take out a Reaper. Another scene had Krogans and Turians charging husks and blowing up stuff. I assume because there wasn't 20 of these. I recall Patrick Weekes saying they wanted to do war asset cinematics, but it wasn't in their budget.


But hey, I'm sure the millions of fans BW lost with their lying bullshit won't matter in the long run. If they lose 2 million customers, at $60 a game that's only $120,000,000 that the few rabid fanboys such as yourself will have to raise. If you made $10/hr, that'd take 1,370 straight years of work (tax free) to make up for the cost of the loss of fans who hold them accountable for their actions. Woah! What are you doing wasting time here?!

I'm going to put on my customer service hat here for a minute. Contrary to what people think, the gaming industry is run by casual gamers and not rabid fans. Still, where I work, the customer can't manipulate a business and say stuff like "if you don't do this, I won't buy another game from you", which is pure manipulation and where I work, I don't tend to tolerate that stuff. It's a form of emotional blackmail, which is a federal crime in a lot of countries. No matter whether you are a customer or not, people can't say that kind of stuff.

I used an example on Forbes where if someone came into a store every day for a year and accused the company of being a bunch of lying thieves, by the 3rd time the store would probably call the police and have that person arrested for harassment or something.

Even Microsoft has been accused of making up stuff about their games as well. They said that FSX would take advantage of 256 cores, but in truth, the game only runs on one core, and the rest are used for terrain loading. There was diminishing returns after about 12 cores as I recall. I guess this could be considered lying as well.

With the whole marketing thing, it sort of makes a game look better than it actually is. Like showing someone a really awesome movie trailer, and when you get to the theatre, the movie isn't that great. As for those scene of people fighting on Earth, those are live CGI scenes judging by the graphics.

The game's ending has been in the works for many years. I think I recall showing you guys a document called SFX, which was the codename for Mass Effect before it was ever called that. Some people thought it was referring to Mass Effect 1, but according to some of the stuff, things like an upgradable ship (Normandy) didn't take place until Mass Effect 2. If you look through Mass Effect 1, 2, 3 files (Coalesced and ini files mostly), you'll see a bunch of references to it.

The ASA advertising agency, which investigated this whole false advertising thing, has actually busted several corporations for lying about stuff.

When they talk about the cutscenes being thematically different, controlling Reapers isn't the same as destroying them (even though most of us know, Reapers control you, not Shepard controls Reapers). Even though the cutscene is the same. Synthesis looks like the other endings, but everyone's DNA is changed (everyone has Reaper DNA implanted into them). So although the ending may appear the same, it's different on that level. That's what they mean when they say the endings were thematically different.

As for the BBB claims, the Better Business Bureau isn't actually a legal agency that can do anything about false advertisement. They're a consumer watchdog group, like the SPCA is for animals. Where as the ASA has more legal power and can bring about justice and
such.

The whole bit about choices shaping your experience and outcome. Thing is Mass Effect 1, is the beginning. Mass Effect 2 is the middle. Mass Effect 3 is the end of the trilogy. Many people took it as. Mass Effect 3 as the beginning, middle, and end with many different variations of the ending. They forgot the other two games. Where Mass Effect 1 is the beginning of Shepard's story.

Still, going on about this thing for a year and a half isn't really healthy. I mean back in 2011 or so, I was never this crazy. Judging by my posts, I have kind of lost my marbles.

At the end of the day, people accept it or move on. Perhaps Bioware will learn their lesson with the next game. Or maybe not and they'll eventually go out of business and you guys will have taught them a lesson.
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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Rifneno on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:59 am

magnetite wrote:I'll try and explain this stuff:

I think the whole simplifying the ending choices into an EMS number comes down to budget reasons. I don't know how much Bioware budgeted for this game, but whatever it was, they didn't have enough money for doing a cutscene, as opposed to a slideshow. Essentially stuff like Collector Base, LOTSB, as well as other stuff came down to a side mission. Actually, in one playthrough, if you flat out didn't do LOTSB, Feron actually died.

Googled some on the topic. I can't find a number for ME3, but ME2 cost about $40,000,000 to make. And SWTOR was a staggering $200,000,000. Jesus. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Like I said, most people would've been fine with a slideshow for smaller stuff if it gave them more customization to their ending.

I'm pretty sure that means the whole game is the ending. I mean, people got to the last 5 minutes, saw the ABC choices, and thought that's what he meant. Kind of harks back to the whole whether the last 5 minutes is the ending, or whether the entire game was the ending. Obviously people playing this game believed that the last 5 minutes was, and they expected their choices to have an impact during the last 5 minutes when the entire game did that for them.

Not sure if you guys are aware of this, but RPGs have been known for the "illusion of choice". You can pick and choose a lot of stuff, but it's all along a guided path.

"The whole game is the ending" is just bad spin. Really transparent spin. Nobody expected what dialogue choice they used with Han Olar to make a difference at the beam run. People expected not to be given "A, B, C" choices after being specifically assured that they wouldn't be given an A, B, C choice.

See, DAO is fantasy, where as Mass Effect is sci-fi. I don't know how many sci-fi series or movies I've watched that showed me what happened to all the characters when it's all said and done, but let's not forget, in Mass Effect, Shepard is the main character. All those characters and squadmates were just along for the ride. I watched X-Files for 9 years and they only showed what happened to Mulder and Scully (main characters, like Shepard). They didn't show what happened to Skinner, Doggett, Marita, as well as many other characters who were still alive at the end of the series. No one took to the streets demanding a ROTK epilogue though. We just accepted what they gave us.

Right. How stupid of me to assume ME and DA's audiences & writers would be similar. Clearly ME has more in common with a show that featured a Stepford Wife themed garbage golem and an evil spirit that possesses housecats and murders people.

What would happen if Bioware made a slide showing Grunt going back to Tuchanka and doing [insert idea here], but people didn't want Grunt doing [insert idea], instead they wanted him doing something else.

Then people would go "that sucks" and move on with their lives unless he was becoming a ballerina dancer or something equally nonsensical. If you think not giving an epilogue was a better way because it didn't piss people off, go ahead and click the links in my sig.

We did get answers to a lot of stuff. I suppose people took this as answers to every single thing including the whole ending explanation and every single question answered and tied up in a knot, so that there's nothing left to think about.

People are still fighting over whether the ending even actually happened. Yeah, they sure did an awesome job of answering questions.

Well, I don't want to sound odd here, but one of the staples of the sci-fi genre is being able to use your imagination. Not everything will be spelled out for us. Heck, even with RPGs are all about using your imagination as well.

This article talks about how the ending was brilliant. But again, with the whole "use your imagination" thing, people might not agree with it.

According to this (don't take offense to the title).

You want to use your imagination for some minor stuff, fine. Whether the galaxy-eating omnicthulhus are ever even truly stopped is not something that should be left to "speculations 4 every1". End of story.

I'm going to put on my customer service hat here for a minute. Contrary to what people think, the gaming industry is run by casual gamers and not rabid fans. Still, where I work, the customer can't manipulate a business and say stuff like "if you don't do this, I won't buy another game from you", which is pure manipulation and where I work, I don't tend to tolerate that stuff. It's a form of emotional blackmail, which is a federal crime in a lot of countries. No matter whether you are a customer or not, people can't say that kind of stuff.

Oh my fucking God. Did you just say that customers saying they won't buy from companies who make shitty products they don't like is "emotional blackmail" and a federal crime? Because that may be the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.



I used an example on Forbes where if someone came into a store every day for a year and accused the company of being a bunch of lying thieves, by the 3rd time the store would probably call the police and have that person arrested for harassment or something.

Yes. Coming into a business and verbally harassing people every single day is exactly the same as a dissatisfied customer saying on the Internet that they aren't going to buy games from a company that makes games they don't like.

Yes, that was sarcasm. I wouldn't normally think I'd have to point that out, but I'm still completely flabbergasted at your insane troll logic.

You know, fuck it. I'm not even going to bother with the rest of this. There's no recovery from "customer dissatisfaction is emotional blackmail."

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by magnetite on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:47 pm

Okay, well, most people, just get their refunds and go home if they aren't satisfied. They don't go on about something for a year and a half.

"The whole game is the ending" is just bad spin. Really transparent spin. Nobody expected what dialogue choice they used with Han Olar to make a difference at the beam run. People expected not to be given "A, B, C" choices after being specifically assured that they wouldn't be given an A, B, C choice.

I hate to sound like an idiot again, but bear with me. Bioware believes the entire game is the end of the trilogy. Most people upset believe the last 5 minutes is. They use the customer is always right in order to get Bioware to retcon the ending to take into account more choices. Then, like Priestly said, they do the "I won't buy another game, if you don't fix the ending" bit.

There are 25 endings including refuse. A lot more than 3 endings (ABC). Yeah they look visually similar, but they are thematically quite different. Like I said before (edited it yesterday), they said the choices would affect the ending, but they didn't say *how*. Whether it'd be a cutscene, slideshow, or an simple EMS number. Truth is, it was an EMS number. Choices were based off of that instead of having a cutscene. Why they went with an EMS number, rather an more variations? Budget reasons I guess. They didn't have enough money in their budget for having cutscenes. Just like the war assets. They wanted to do war assets, but they didn't have enough money to do them. So they cut it.


People are still fighting over whether the ending even actually happened. Yeah, they sure did an awesome job of answering questions.

Here's the thing. Mass Effect 3 is the end of Shepard's story, not the Reapers. People say "well, Shepard was supposed to destroy the Reapers. The story isn't over yet". So even if Mike Gamble said this was not going to be a cliffhanger. It's not a cliffhanger to Shepard's story.

Honestly, Shepard picks destroy, no one gets harvested, and that's that.

According to this Shepard's story did get resolved, but because the Reapers are still there, people think the game isn't over yet. Thing is, in 98% of the ending aside from one, everything gets indoctrinated. So for 98% of the endings, there's no point in adding more content. Now for the 2%, I don't know how many people picked the destroy option, but wouldn't it sound like punishing people if only 2% of the people got the "real ending" to Mass Effect? The rest of the people basically took their 5 years of work and flushed it down the toilet when they picked the other endings. I suppose though, since this game is about choices and consequences, then that would fit.

According to what is in the game though, you did destroy the Reapers.

Control, Synthesis, Destroy

I mean, they made the Extended Cut. If there was more to come, why not after the EC would they make a free DLC having Shepard go up to the Citadel, destroy the Reapers, and end it. They spent the last year explaining stuff to the literalists who, to this day, still don't understand the ending. So, something is definitely up. I don't know what their plan is.

To sympathize with you, Rif, I think Bioware forgot the people playing this game were gamers, not students getting a doctorate degree in astrophysics. Most games spell out a lot of stuff for you. Well maybe not everything, but at least 90%. In the case of Mass Effect 3's ending, it's more 50/50 perhaps less. Some stuff explained, but 90% is left up to the player to decide for themselves, or as some sites claim use "mental gymnastics" in order to figure things out. Perhaps with the next game Bioware will change this.

Still, some people have been claiming for years that game companies not dumb stuff down for the masses and make stuff that is thought provoking, instead of spoonfeeding people everything. Bioware tried not to spoon-feed people and it backfired. Like you said, they may have left too much open and didn't explain enough because their forgot who their audience was.

I think for the next game, Bioware is not going to do something this risky. Instead they are going to follow the tried and true formula that has always worked.

From Futurama:

Fry: Married? Jenny can't get married.
Leela: Why? It's clever, it's unexpected.
Fry: That's not why people watch TV. Clever things makes people feel stupid. Unexpected things make people feel scared. They want the same thing they've seen 1000 times before. Trust me on this.

Fry may have been right on this.

I give up. You win.


Last edited by magnetite on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:12 pm

Magnetite:

I am sorry, but Shepard lying in a pile of rubble with no one wanting to clearly state whether it is the Citadel or Earth with the only clear thing being that he is alive and with no indication of what happens after is not what I call an ending to Shepard's story.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Rifneno on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:36 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:Magnetite:

I am sorry, but Shepard lying in a pile of rubble with no one wanting to clearly state whether it is the Citadel or Earth with the only clear thing being that he is alive and with no indication of what happens after is not what I call an ending to Shepard's story.

Oh no, even that's not clear.  Remember at that con where they said "that could just be his dying breath"?  That the film shown in the file End03_Shepard_Alive_Male.bik is Shepard's "dying breath"?

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by dorktainian on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:41 pm

of course its not his dying breath. he's taking in a gulp of air, not the slow exhalation death breath.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Rifneno on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:43 pm

dork wrote:of course its not his dying breath.  he's taking in a gulp of air, not the slow exhalation death breath.

 Yep.  My mother used to be a nurse and she's seen a lot of people die, and a lot of people come back from the brink.  I showed the clip to her and she was absolutely befuddled that anyone could think that was a dying breath rather than a gasp of life.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by dorktainian on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:47 pm



yep - fwiw my first (and so far only) vid on youtube shows this.  i tried to highlight the surrounding area and stuff to make the breath scene more vivid.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by magnetite on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:33 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:Magnetite:

I am sorry, but Shepard lying in a pile of rubble with no one wanting to clearly state whether it is the Citadel or Earth with the only clear thing being that he is alive and with no indication of what happens after is not what I call an ending to Shepard's story.

Watch the video I posted in the other thread. It's clearly on Earth. I don't know what people want though. For Shepard to destroy the Reapers for good? They said this is not what was going to happen.

Reapers aren't the main point of Mass Effect 3, Shepard was. Shepard's story is over in 98% of the endings, but the Reapers are not. I never recalled them saying "Mass Effect 3 will be the end of the Reapers". I mean Anderson said "this war is just getting started", and that was in the last hour of the game. Sounds to me like the Reaper war will last several games.

I don't understand why Bioware would need to spend millions in resources to make an ending only 2% of the people would get. If that.


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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Rifneno on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:40 pm

magnetite wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:Magnetite:

I am sorry, but Shepard lying in a pile of rubble with no one wanting to clearly state whether it is the Citadel or Earth with the only clear thing being that he is alive and with no indication of what happens after is not what I call an ending to Shepard's story.

Watch the video I posted in the other thread. It's clearly on Earth. I don't know what people want though. For Shepard to destroy the Reapers for good? They said this is not what was going to happen.

Reapers aren't the main point of Mass Effect 3, Shepard was. Shepard's story is over in 98% of the endings, but the Reapers are not.

I don't understand why Bioware would need to spend millions in resources to make an ending only 2% of the people would get. If that.

 OMGZ EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:42 pm

magnetite wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:Magnetite:

I am sorry, but Shepard lying in a pile of rubble with no one wanting to clearly state whether it is the Citadel or Earth with the only clear thing being that he is alive and with no indication of what happens after is not what I call an ending to Shepard's story.

Watch the video I posted in the other thread. It's clearly on Earth. I don't know what people want though. For Shepard to destroy the Reapers for good? They said this is not what was going to happen.

No I am not asking for that, but finishing a story whether that be an overall epic tale or personal quest requires closure of some form.

Shepard is not old, he has many years left in him. He has made friends along his journey, there may even be one or more people who truly love him. He has helped set in motion great things that will change the current cycle (if it survives the Reapers) and has over all become a symbol for the entire resistance against the Reapers, a leader, a figure of hope.

Him lying in a pile of rubble, drawing a "breath of life" is not closure for Shepard's story in any way. Even if he did not do anything noteworthy from then on (and really if the Reaper war is not over and Shepard is not crippled beyond belief, he would be back in the fray) it still leave everything a bout what happened to him or his loved one hanging.

Shepard is symbol to quote the games themselves and a symbol is either killed, becoming a Martyr for the cause and spurring others to take up the mantle, corrupted and turned into a symbol of despair or they step back, either before or after the battle, becoming merely a symbol in the background or a person leading them even as others show the way.

A symbol is not forgotten under a pile of rocks, not when so many people depend on and focus on it. Something happens to that symbol, even if it is as simple and unheroic as being found and carried to hospital and it is that part we lack.

Because as things stand the breath scene leaves it as not an ending but a cliffhanger and that is no matter if we look at the overall story or just Shepard's story.

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by magnetite on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:46 pm

When people make movies and such, they tend to write the script first, then make the movie. Mass Effect 3 wouldn't be any different. According to the leaked script last year, nothing really happens after you pick the final choice. No epilogue or anything. I mean TIM scene was changed, but everything else was the same.


Because as things stand the breath scene leaves it as not an ending but a cliffhanger and that is no matter if we look at the overall story or just Shepard's story.

Cliffhanger to Reapers? Seems likely. Cliffhanger to Shepard's story, nope.


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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by Rifneno on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:50 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
magnetite wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:Magnetite:

I am sorry, but Shepard lying in a pile of rubble with no one wanting to clearly state whether it is the Citadel or Earth with the only clear thing being that he is alive and with no indication of what happens after is not what I call an ending to Shepard's story.

Watch the video I posted in the other thread. It's clearly on Earth. I don't know what people want though. For Shepard to destroy the Reapers for good? They said this is not what was going to happen.

No I am not asking for that, but finishing a story whether that be an overall epic tale or personal quest requires closure of some form. 

 You should be asking for that, because that's what they need to give us.  "Mass Effect 3 isn't about the Reapers" is an utterly pathetic fanboy excuse.  ME3 could not be more about the Reapers and their war.

But while we're at poor fanboy excuses, mag, let's hear an explanation for this that doesn't involve BW lying: https://twitter.com/GambleMike/status/352187404377001987

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Re: GameTrailers.com Delivers "The Final Verdict" On ME3 Ending

Post by magnetite on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:53 pm

Rifneno wrote:
 You should be asking for that, because that's what they need to give us.  "Mass Effect 3 isn't about the Reapers" is an utterly pathetic fanboy excuse.  ME3 could not be more about the Reapers and their war.

Mass Effect 3 will end Shepard's story, not Reapers

I don't know what else to say. We paid $60 to have them write us a story. What are people going to do, hold Bioware hostage until they get what they want?

Thing is, Mass Effect 3 ended development back in March 2013. In the world of software development, Mass Effect 3 has reached it's end of life for the game. No new update, patches or content. They're done with this game.

People are fine to disagree on how they ended it, but to demand proper closure or have closure how we see fit. It's not our story to tell. I mean look, it's all about family dynamics:

-One guy likes the original endings
-One guy likes the extended cut
-One guy wants the entire ending rewritten
-One guy wants the entire game redone
-One guy wants to see X scene specifically for his Shepard (Tali house or whatever)

Change any one of those and someone will not be satisfied.

Even if it was "our story" like the claimed, who's the one who has to make and test all the content? Bioware.

Sorry, I'm a bit off my nut. I need to go lie down.


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