(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

jeez. jabba the priestly.... how I loath that slug...

as far as the endings? what endings? taken literally they fucked up, or IT is correct. those really are the only 2 options. if IT aint correct then they don't deserve our money anymore.

spotlessvoid wrote:The limbic system is responsible for regulating the chemical states of the brain as well as other things such as long term memory. Controlling when endorphins adrenaline etc are released to manipulate cognitive function (what you call "mind" by altering which thoughts and behaviors are rewarded or discouraged. It doesn't even require directly controlling the cerebrum. The "mind" aka the intellect isn't under direct control.

Since Shepard is so fearless and emotionally stable, the limbic system is less dominant than in normal people. His emotions are not only harder to manipulate but have less impact on his cognitive function.

Nice idea. I'll keep it!!

But even if BW did use it, once again it does not explain how indoctrinated subject do communicate between themselves and the reapers  and share memories and thoughts before receiving any implants and nanites.

Furthermore, in the extented cut endings (AND in the citadel dlc) potential hints were sown about how Shep was able to instantly communicate with his squadmates light years away.

- Review all the endings (with all EMS) and watch Joker's face when the crucible blast is catching up with the normandy.
Before the EC, Joker was freaking out everytime.
Now only in the low EMS destroy desintegrate ending does he freak out. In any other ending, he seems quite cool.

Only Shep at the epicentre of the blast knew what the blast was about. How did Joker knows the outcome of the blast coming from an alien galaxy wide weapon of mass destruction? Any sane pilot would be livid with terror, he isn't, he knows they will make it.
How?

In the destroy perfect ending, Shep's love interest when putting his/her name on the memorial (littered with honeycombs btw  )  suddenly knows Shep's alive right at the moment when shep starts breathing again.
How?
(please don't use some explanation like 'we don't know when both those scenes did happen' it's obvious they are simultaneous)

In the citadel DLC, BW made everything possible to make the player feel as if Shep an his squadmates behave like a single body.
At first sight it could pass like a veteran army unit working like a well oiled machine.
But given the context, it goes much further. (it works like the colonists of Feros in fact)
See the scene when all squadmates shoot at the same time at the CAT6 mercenaries. = they start to behave alike, to have the same moves.

A few minutes before that, when the clone shows himself, shep watches at the miniature of the huge citadel hanged in the air above the room.
If you trigger the renegade interrupt, shep will roll and take the gun and shoot at the miniature, making it fall and distract the clone and his/her minions long enough for his squadmates to react and take their guns.

IF YOU DON'T Garrus will do it as if he was reading YOUR mind.

In any movie or other game this could pass for brothers in arms knowing each other so much they know what the other will do, and I'm sure many players never gave a second thought about it.
But what if this is another tell sign showing the whole party is indoctrinated BY Shep. (or around Shep)
(BTW this is exactly what is happening around the exile in Kotor2, a game given by BW to Obidian)

'Do you hear that hum? Or is it just me?'

Yes Vega, I can hear it.

spotlessvoid wrote:lol, now it's irrelevant.  I am serious.  I'll take this as an admittance you don't know enough about this subject to respond.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Spot is obviously completely serious, and he's also completely right. The lymbic system's main function is to control behaviour, motivation, emotion and long term memory.

You can say it's a game, and yes it is, but Bioware usually do their homework when it comes to this kind of 'science'. If one would want to explain mind control with at least some semblance of a proper scientific explanation, the lymbic system would absolutely be the way to go.

Wasn't it Walters who has a degree in psychology, or was that just hearsay?

Anyway.

Like I already said, for a sci-fi game it's a good enough explanation.

And yes, Walters definitely has a degree in psychology, but... not to rub you guys the wrong way but... so do I.

So like, the limbic system is fairly primitive, and since indoctrinees develop all kinds of intricate philosophies to support their subversive actions and reduce their cognitive dissonance, you could even say are implanted with original thought, mentioning another very general anatomical area like the prefrontal cortex would've made a lot of sense, too, since that's where the critical and more advanced thinking goes on. I mean, do they appear emotionally brainwashed? Or more like rationally? Then again, every area is basically connected with any other, so in the end it doesn't really matter what BW said, indoctrination is obvious fiction anyway.

What Spotless said in his previous posting didn't read like a response to what I said at all, more like some mumbo jumbo about cognition, so to me that felt like he was trying to draw me out again for his personal amusement. Which his last response confirmed, sadly.

Really man, get over it. How about I start ignoring you, for real now?

smash016 wrote:

spotlessvoid wrote:lol, now it's irrelevant.  I am serious.  I'll take this as an admittance you don't know enough about this subject to respond.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Spot is obviously completely serious, and he's also completely right. The lymbic system's main function is to control behaviour, motivation, emotion and long term memory.

You can say it's a game, and yes it is, but Bioware usually do their homework when it comes to this kind of 'science'. If one would want to explain mind control with at least some semblance of a proper scientific explanation, the lymbic system would absolutely be the way to go.

Wasn't it Walters who has a degree in psychology, or was that just hearsay?

Anyway.

Like I already said, for a sci-fi game it's a good enough explanation.

And yes, Walters definitely has a degree in psychology, but... not to rub you guys the wrong way but... so do I.

So like, the limbic system is fairly primitive, and since indoctrinees develop all kinds of intricate philosophies to support their subversive actions and reduce their cognitive dissonance, you could even say are implanted with original thought, mentioning another very general anatomical area like the prefrontal cortex would've made a lot of sense, too, since that's where the critical and more advanced thinking goes on. I mean, do they appear emotionally brainwashed? Or more like rationally? Then again, every area is basically connected with any other, so in the end it doesn't really matter what BW said, indoctrination is obvious fiction anyway.

What Spotless said in his previous posting didn't read like a response to what I said at all, more like some mumbo jumbo about cognition, so to me that felt like he was trying to draw me out again for his personal amusement. Which his last response confirmed, sadly.

Really man, get over it. How about I start ignoring you, for real now?

Go away.

vlad78 wrote:Furthermore, in the extented cut endings (AND in the citadel dlc) potential hints were sown about how Shep was able to instantly communicate with his squadmates light years away.

- Review all the endings (with all EMS) and watch Joker's face when the crucible blast is catching up with the normandy.
Before the EC, Joker was freaking out everytime.
Now only in the low EMS destroy desintegrate ending does he freak out. In any other ending, he seems quite cool.

Only Shep at the epicentre of the blast knew what the blast was about. How did Joker knows the outcome of the blast coming from an alien galaxy wide weapon of mass destruction? Any sane pilot would be livid with terror, he isn't, he knows they will make it.
How?

Joker reacting differently in the EC is just part of the attempt to make the endings appear less desperate. Just like the relays not really getting destroyed, the Normandy not being totally wrecked, etc.

vlad78 wrote:In the destroy perfect ending, Shep's love interest when putting his/her name on the memorial (littered with honeycombs btw  )  suddenly knows Shep's alive right at the moment when shep starts breathing again.
How?
(please don't use some explanation like 'we don't know when both those scenes did happen' it's obvious they are simultaneous)

Obvious? I sincerely don't feel like the memorial scene and the breath scene are simultaneous events. To me it feels like it's in chronological order, although it's unsure how much time passes between these two events. There's a change in music, there's a fade from black, which makes it feel like everything was a dream before Shepard takes that breath. That includes the memorial scene. I don't even believe that memorial scene to be real. IMHO it's just a reflection of Shepard's subconscious, knowing he's still alive.

vlad78 wrote:In the citadel DLC, BW made everything possible to make the player feel as if Shep an his squadmates behave like a single body.
At first sight it could pass like a veteran army unit working like a well oiled machine.
But given the context, it goes much further. (it works like the colonists of Feros in fact)
See the scene when all squadmates shoot at the same time at the CAT6 mercenaries. = they start to behave alike, to have the same moves.

Nothing odd about that scene IMO. Limitations in animation because there's so many models. Have you seen how the second fire team moves through the environment? Looks completely hokey, again just simplified animation.

vlad78 wrote:A few minutes before that, when the clone shows himself, shep watches at the miniature of the huge citadel hanged in the air above the room.
If you trigger the renegade interrupt, shep will roll and take the gun and shoot at the miniature, making it fall and distract the clone and his/her minions long enough for his squadmates to react and take their guns.

IF YOU DON'T Garrus will do it as if he was reading YOUR mind.

That's nothing. If you don't shoot Udina, then the VS will do it. Plenty of examples like that. Often it's just a convenient way to be able to use part of the same cutscene, instead of having to code an entirely different one.

vlad78 wrote:'Do you hear that hum? Or is it just me?'

Yes Vega, I can hear it.

The first time I walked into the cargo bay in ME3, the first thing I noticed was that strange hum that somewhat sounds like a Reaper horn. So Vega's comment made me go "Hell yes, I'm hearing that!"

It could be a sign of indoctrination. It could also be a hint that something on board the Normandy is based on Reaper tech (probably less likely). It could also be just a joke about the sound that freaks people out because it kind of sounds like a Reaper horn.

@Rifneno

Maybe if you and your buddy would stop treating me like shit I wouldn't be such a nuisance to you. Just a thought.

But if that's what you want, I'll try to ignore you, too. I hope it's mutually beneficial.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
...Limitations in animation because there's so many models. Have you seen how the second fire team moves through the environment? Looks completely hokey, again just simplified animation.

Those glimpses had me almost hear Scooby Doo themes playing at the back of my head -- I even wondered if they were intentionally trying to evoke that sort of recognition. :D

jojon2se wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
...Limitations in animation because there's so many models. Have you seen how the second fire team moves through the environment? Looks completely hokey, again just simplified animation.

Those glimpses had me almost hear Scooby Doo themes playing at the back of my head -- I even wondered if they were intentionally trying to evoke that sort of recognition. :D

Haha, yes! Scooby Dooooooo!

Lol, I've completely lost track of what the hell we're talking about.

Do you understand how simple this concept is? Triggering timely chemical releases induce emotional states creating a relatively non intrusive method of operant conditioning. You aren't recoding entire networks of neurons, the victim does that naturally along the paths the operator desires.

Which is why victims of slow indoctrination maintain high level, independent cognitive functions. It's also why the victim can be reasoned with and consciously make choices, even if the overwhelming control of the limbic system makes it impossible to assert full independence from the Reapers.

spotlessvoid wrote:Do you understand how simple this concept is? Triggering timely chemical releases induce emotional states creating a relatively non intrusive method of operant conditioning. You aren't recoding entire networks of neurons, the victim does that naturally along the paths the operator desires.

Which is why victims of slow indoctrination maintain high level, independent cognitive functions. It's also why the victim can be reasoned with and consciously make choices, even if the overwhelming control of the limbic system makes it impossible to assert full independence from the Reapers.

Didn't you hear him?  It's not important.  Indoctrination isn't important to indoctrination theory.  What are you, some kind of dumbass?

Rifneno wrote:

spotlessvoid wrote:Do you understand how simple this concept is? Triggering timely chemical releases induce emotional states creating a relatively non intrusive method of operant conditioning. You aren't recoding entire networks of neurons, the victim does that naturally along the paths the operator desires.

Which is why victims of slow indoctrination maintain high level, independent cognitive functions. It's also why the victim can be reasoned with and consciously make choices, even if the overwhelming control of the limbic system makes it impossible to assert full independence from the Reapers.

Didn't you hear him?  It's not important.  Indoctrination isn't important to indoctrination theory.  What are you, some kind of dumbass?

it's just ptsd. you guys are desperate.

spotlessvoid wrote:Do you understand how simple this concept is? Triggering timely chemical releases induce emotional states creating a relatively non intrusive method of operant conditioning. You aren't recoding entire networks of neurons, the victim does that naturally along the paths the operator desires.

Which is why victims of slow indoctrination maintain high level, independent cognitive functions. It's also why the victim can be reasoned with and consciously make choices, even if the overwhelming control of the limbic system makes it impossible to assert full independence from the Reapers.

I understand what you're saying. Given what little the game tells us about how indoctrination supposedly works in this fictional state of affairs called Mass Effect, and elaborating upon it yourself, this is by all means a sensible account.

But the point was, iirc, that you were asking Vlad to explain how Shepard could affect the minds of others, seemingly treating Reaper indoctrination like a concept that has proven real-life correlates. I don't think it has any. It's still sci-fi, nothing more, nothing less. Hence the available opportunities for BW to grant Shepard similar abilities should they feel inclined.

And I raised a few concerns regarding your explanation, and you haven't addressed them. Which is fine with me. All I really wanted to say is that for me, "electromagnetic waves influencing the limbic system" is a sci-fi explanation for indoctrination, and not an actual one.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

vlad78 wrote:Furthermore, in the extented cut endings (AND in the citadel dlc) potential hints were sown about how Shep was able to instantly communicate with his squadmates light years away.

- Review all the endings (with all EMS) and watch Joker's face when the crucible blast is catching up with the normandy.
Before the EC, Joker was freaking out everytime.
Now only in the low EMS destroy desintegrate ending does he freak out. In any other ending, he seems quite cool.

Only Shep at the epicentre of the blast knew what the blast was about. How did Joker knows the outcome of the blast coming from an alien galaxy wide weapon of mass destruction? Any sane pilot would be livid with terror, he isn't, he knows they will make it.
How?

Joker reacting differently in the EC is just part of the attempt to make the endings appear less desperate. Just like the relays not really getting destroyed, the Normandy not being totally wrecked, etc.

vlad78 wrote:In the destroy perfect ending, Shep's love interest when putting his/her name on the memorial (littered with honeycombs btw  )  suddenly knows Shep's alive right at the moment when shep starts breathing again.
How?
(please don't use some explanation like 'we don't know when both those scenes did happen' it's obvious they are simultaneous)

Obvious? I sincerely don't feel like the memorial scene and the breath scene are simultaneous events. To me it feels like it's in chronological order, although it's unsure how much time passes between these two events. There's a change in music, there's a fade from black, which makes it feel like everything was a dream before Shepard takes that breath. That includes the memorial scene. I don't even believe that memorial scene to be real. IMHO it's just a reflection of Shepard's subconscious, knowing he's still alive.

vlad78 wrote:In the citadel DLC, BW made everything possible to make the player feel as if Shep an his squadmates behave like a single body.
At first sight it could pass like a veteran army unit working like a well oiled machine.
But given the context, it goes much further. (it works like the colonists of Feros in fact)
See the scene when all squadmates shoot at the same time at the CAT6 mercenaries. = they start to behave alike, to have the same moves.

Nothing odd about that scene IMO. Limitations in animation because there's so many models. Have you seen how the second fire team moves through the environment? Looks completely hokey, again just simplified animation.

vlad78 wrote:A few minutes before that, when the clone shows himself, shep watches at the miniature of the huge citadel hanged in the air above the room.
If you trigger the renegade interrupt, shep will roll and take the gun and shoot at the miniature, making it fall and distract the clone and his/her minions long enough for his squadmates to react and take their guns.

IF YOU DON'T Garrus will do it as if he was reading YOUR mind.

That's nothing. If you don't shoot Udina, then the VS will do it. Plenty of examples like that. Often it's just a convenient way to be able to use part of the same cutscene, instead of having to code an entirely different one.

vlad78 wrote:'Do you hear that hum? Or is it just me?'

Yes Vega, I can hear it.

The first time I walked into the cargo bay in ME3, the first thing I noticed was that strange hum that somewhat sounds like a Reaper horn. So Vega's comment made me go "Hell yes, I'm hearing that!"

It could be a sign of indoctrination. It could also be a hint that something on board the Normandy is based on Reaper tech (probably less likely). It could also be just a joke about the sound that freaks people out because it kind of sounds like a Reaper horn.

Joker and the blast.
- Whatever the changes done to make it appear less desperate, you don't answer to the question.
It's been said several times no one knows what the crucible will do hence the hasty retreat of sword fleet once the crucible is activated.
How does he know? EC is a polished ending, fewer things should be random.

Memorial scene.
If the Normandy has been damaged, they had the time to repair it meaning days perhaps weeks had passed.
The LI smiles, fade to black and on the other side of the galaxy, shep suddenly breaths.
To me it's symbollically tied especially since the LI doesn't smile in any other ending AND I assume the breath scene is the last to occur .

The scene happening in a dream doesn't change anything, imho this dream is a reflection of reality, whatever powers Shep had in the dream are real. (otherwise ther would be no reason to get him into such dream)

squad acting as one.
- Your not thinking of the right scene, I'm talking about the cinematic when they all climbed the ladder and all of them are shooting the cat6; = wrex statement something along 'why shoot once when you can shoot 36 times'.

Garrus
I disagree.
Previously, in similar situations, the action was to shoot or not to shoot = Udina, Wrex and then yes the game made the story unfold if you hesitated too much.

But here it's about HOW to get the hell out of this mess. It's different imho.

Rifneno wrote:

Riff, this is an explanation happening between Spot and Smash, do you have anything in store to contribute to the debate or do you feel bored ?

Sigh.

That the causative mechanism the Reapers use is not well understood is logical. Reapers have not been studied. However the effect is on humans, which have been studied extensively. None of the known mechanisms used by Reapers have ever been demonstrated as being physically possible to produce by humans. It would be a major asspull this far into the narrative and especially given my earlier point:  Shepard must use a coherent argument to consciously convince others (excluding the threat of using force of course) meaning that he is targeting the functions of the cerebral cortex in a completely natural way. Fail to consciously convince others through proper dialogue and they don't align as desired.  Indoctrination works by operant conditioning not by mind control. Neural networks are tremendously complex and heavily redundant, it's exponentially harder to directly rewrite entire neural networks than it is release endorphins for example. In fact, we know that rapid indoctrination causes massive degeneration of cognitive function. This is why manipulating the release of various chemicals to reinforce/discourage cognitive patterns is the preferred Reaper mechanism for indoctrination.

There is no real world corollary to Reapers, hence the relative carte blanche when it comes to the hard science behind their abilities. Humans however do not have this wiggle room. Human induced indoctrination becomes space magic as it directly contradicts known human physiology. It also DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the game. Shepard CANNOT subconsciously manipulate others, only through words and actions. If he has any hypothetical powers they are thoroughly ineffective. Since they don't manifest in any perceivable way, have no known in universe justification, and contradict known human biology, there's no justification to introduce the concept retroactively.

Aside from that, if Shepard is indoctrinated, and if he's become a source of indoctrination for his crew, there should be tell-tale signs. The only ones I can think of as evident are some of remarks of some of the crew when seeing the remains of the human Reaper on Chronos station. (Some will comment it feels like it's watching them)

@Spotlessvoid

"Sigh?" You keep bringing this up. Feel free to drop the subject if it bores you. I need to repeat myself to you, too, you know.

Petty bickering aside -- nobody argued that Shepard, in this hypothetical scenario, would use the same means as the Reapers, ie. electromagnetic waves. That would indeed be absurd. I wonder why you even treat the possibility.

Instead, I proposed biotics and the Dominate ability in particular, as just one example. I ask you again, what do you make of that? What real-life correlates do they have? And if BW can introduce these space magic concepts, how can you say with certainty they could never introduce a means of mind manipulation for Shepard?

Then, as we discussed before, there's Thorian-induced hive minds, shared memories, contagious indoctrination, et cetera, all made possible by the human mind as we thought we knew it. Bottom line: anything goes in this universe because it's science fiction.

Btw, if I'm as liberal with the lore in here as you are while explaining the intricacies of indoctrination I get directed to the Scary Door.

As a final reminder, I don't think Shepard influences other minds, neither do I like the idea. I do think, however, that it would be possible given the lore, and additionally, that our recent neurological essays are rather irrelevant and act like more of a pretentious smokescreen for the both of us. I'm sure most people here would agree.

vlad78 wrote:Joker and the blast.
- Whatever the changes done to make it appear less desperate, you don't answer to the question.
It's been said several times no one knows what the crucible will do hence the hasty  retreat of sword fleet once the crucible is activated.
How does he know?  EC is a polished ending, fewer things should be random.

I don't feel like there is any concrete reason for it, other than that one of the complaints about the original ending was that people didn't understand why Joker panicked. I'm just saying it fits into the entire pattern of things they did to make it all seem less desperate, and doesn't have to mean anything.

EDIT: In my interpretation, the ending sequences are pictures of hope in Shepard's mind. So if Shepard did all he could to build the crucible (higher EMS), it makes sense that he has more hope, and the scenario plays out more hopefully. So with low EMS, Joker panicks because Shepard isn't all that confident about the result. I also explained this below in the next point.

vlad78 wrote:Memorial scene.
If the Normandy has been damaged, they had the time to repair it meaning days perhaps weeks had passed.
The LI smiles, fade to black and on the other side of the galaxy, shep suddenly breaths.
To me it's symbollically tied especially since the LI doesn't smile in any other ending  AND I assume the breath scene is the last to occur .

The scene happening in a dream doesn't change anything, imho this dream is a reflection of reality, whatever powers Shep had in the dream are real. (otherwise ther would be no reason to get him into such dream)

No, IMO it does matter if it's a dream. My theory is that the more hopeful Shepard is, the more he has done to perfect the crucible, the more forces he's gathered, the more subconscious hope he has for success and survival. The epilogues are pictures of hope. And when Shepard sticks to his guns, and he's done everything he could, he has enough hope to think he might actually have survived. In my interpretation, the LI hesitating to put up the name plate is Shepard's subconscious realization (within the dream) that there's hope for survival, and then he wakes up.

Also, if it's a dream, the whole sequence (from going up the London beam all the way up to and including the epilogue) might have 'played' in his mind within a matter of minutes or even seconds. We're talking dream time here.

Have you ever heard someone talking in his sleep? They speak extremely rapidly. Have you ever woken up, looked at the alarm clock, fallen back asleep and had a dream that seemed to last an hour, but when you woke up a second time it was only a few minutes later? That's what I'm talking about.

Shepard might be waking up mere minutes after Harby's blast. (-If- he's in London...)

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Aside from that, if Shepard is indoctrinated, and if he's become a source of indoctrination for his crew, there should be tell-tale signs. The only ones I can think of as evident are some of remarks of some of the crew when seeing the remains of the human Reaper on Chronos station. (Some will comment it feels like it's watching them)

Even that doesn't require any special connectivity. It makes sense without the human reaper possessing even latent indoctrination capabilities. It looks like it's watching you. It's a giant human Reaper, not exactly inconspicuous. I doubt anyone will feel at ease around it. Add in even a passive indoctrination signal originating from the human reaper remains and there's no reason to assume any effect is attributable to Shepard. In fact it's an argument against it.

spotlessvoid wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Aside from that, if Shepard is indoctrinated, and if he's become a source of indoctrination for his crew, there should be tell-tale signs. The only ones I can think of as evident are some of remarks of some of the crew when seeing the remains of the human Reaper on Chronos station. (Some will comment it feels like it's watching them)

Even that doesn't require any special connectivity. It makes sense without the human reaper possessing even latent indoctrination capabilities. It looks like it's watching you. It's a giant human Reaper, not exactly inconspicuous. I doubt anyone will feel at ease around it. Add in even a passive indoctrination signal originating from the human reaper remains and there's no reason to assume any effect is attributable to Shepard. In fact it's an argument against it.

has everyone forgotten Vega hearing that 'hum'?

spotlessvoid wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Aside from that, if Shepard is indoctrinated, and if he's become a source of indoctrination for his crew, there should be tell-tale signs. The only ones I can think of as evident are some of remarks of some of the crew when seeing the remains of the human Reaper on Chronos station. (Some will comment it feels like it's watching them)

Even that doesn't require any special connectivity. It makes sense without the human reaper possessing even latent indoctrination capabilities. It looks like it's watching you. It's a giant human Reaper, not exactly inconspicuous. I doubt anyone will feel at ease around it. Add in even a passive indoctrination signal originating from the human reaper remains and there's no reason to assume any effect is attributable to Shepard. In fact it's an argument against it.

I agree, in fact that was my point. I've been a little feverish this weekend, sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

@vlad: I edited my reply to you. I was a little feverish, and got a little confused. It should be clearer now.

dorktainian wrote:has everyone forgotten Vega hearing that 'hum'?

Vega, huh?

You call me Loco.
I live upstairs from you.
If you hear some kind of hum,
just don't ask me any more.

:P