I am SO confused about all of this... (Major ending foreshadowing in Citadel DLC)

Also, having the option to give Joker weapons training somehow gave me hope.

Soul8lighter wrote:

Pascal219 wrote:Someone really should take a screenshot from this, but I just saw a Prothean figure symbol in the DLC on the lower Citadel Wards.

You remember that very loud door in the beginning of the DLC? Look beside it before opening it, both side have two symbols. Symbols of a Prothean, a Hanar and a Human.

Dafuq?

I remember seeing a sign with a Hanar, a Turian, and a Human. Pedestrian sign I'm thinking.

That ain't no Turian, it closely resembles the silhouettes from Athame on Thessia.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Also, having the option to give Joker weapons training somehow gave me hope.

Does it include breaking an arm off and swinging it at reapers?

Um, not that I remember.

Does anyone have a literal quote of the con artist line?

That con artist line is going to be my BSN signature.

Pascal219 wrote:

Soul8lighter wrote:

Pascal219 wrote:Someone really should take a screenshot from this, but I just saw a Prothean figure symbol in the DLC on the lower Citadel Wards.

You remember that very loud door in the beginning of the DLC? Look beside it before opening it, both side have two symbols. Symbols of a Prothean, a Hanar and a Human.

Dafuq?

I remember seeing a sign with a Hanar, a Turian, and a Human. Pedestrian sign I'm thinking.

That ain't no Turian, it closely resembles the silhouettes from Athame on Thessia.

Are you talking about that door you have to open with spectre authorization? That's where I saw a sign.

Rolan Quarn from Cerberus News Network, that's the con artist right?

Soul8lighter wrote:

Pascal219 wrote:

Soul8lighter wrote:

Pascal219 wrote:Someone really should take a screenshot from this, but I just saw a Prothean figure symbol in the DLC on the lower Citadel Wards.

You remember that very loud door in the beginning of the DLC? Look beside it before opening it, both side have two symbols. Symbols of a Prothean, a Hanar and a Human.

Dafuq?

I remember seeing a sign with a Hanar, a Turian, and a Human. Pedestrian sign I'm thinking.

That ain't no Turian, it closely resembles the silhouettes from Athame on Thessia.

Are you talking about that door you have to open with spectre authorization? That's where I saw a sign.

Yes.

Also, EDI making a joke about homicidal AI rising up against their creators? I believe this was mentioned before right?

Funny, how that is the one sentence EDI doesn't finish with ''That was a joke.''. Liara ends up asking if it is, but she doesn't reply.. curious.

Edit: So not a single codex entry is generated from this DLC? That's unusua, and that's putting it mildly.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Also, having the option to give Joker weapons training somehow gave me hope.

Ok...this doesn't make sense...doesn't Joker provide covering fire at the end of the suicide mission in ME 2...would he be doing that w/o any weapons training at all?

DSharrah wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Also, having the option to give Joker weapons training somehow gave me hope.

Ok...this doesn't make sense...doesn't Joker provide covering fire at the end of the suicide mission in ME 2...would he be doing that w/o any weapons training at all?

The point is more that he needs to stay in shape. Hone his skills from time to time. The whole discussion starts when someone asks if he keeps a gun under his chair in the cockpit. He doesn't.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

DSharrah wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Also, having the option to give Joker weapons training somehow gave me hope.

Ok...this doesn't make sense...doesn't Joker provide covering fire at the end of the suicide mission in ME 2...would he be doing that w/o any weapons training at all?

The point is more that he needs to stay in shape. Hone his skills from time to time. The whole discussion starts when someone asks if he keeps a gun under his chair in the cockpit. He doesn't.

I seriously need to play the DLC again and make sure that I get everyone to the party this time - feel like I missed out on so much. But, I am going to have to give up my MP addiction to do it...

GethJuggernautMKII wrote:The con artist line is just beautiful. There are no words more suitable to describe the way players have been suckered into believing and accepting literal control and literal synthesis.

I gotta thank DD an SwobyJ. The DLC is more disturbing, and thus more fun to play, when one sees it as a warped, disconnected reality.

I felt it was 'warped and disconnected' even at first, and I was even texting my boyfriend: "THIS DLC IS SO FUCKED UP. I'M SCARED." etc..

But now, I feel the opposite.

The Citadel DLC is Shepard kicking Reaper ass. No, not on Earth yet, but in his mind.

The Beam Run (I believe this is first of pure illusion, at least before time starts looping in on itself) = Harbinger as a Reaper
Citadel = Harbinger as 'The Illusive Man'
Crucible = 'Catalyst'
Citadel DLC = 'Maya' and/or 'CloneShep'

Each time, you can kick Reaper ass, more and more.

By the end of Citadel DLC, Shepard is (hopefully... depending on the player...) fully ready and willing to do what needs to be done. Destroy the Reapers. This is Shepard's test of mental endurance, and most ITers have already won - the Reapers just don't know it yet ;)

Pascal219 wrote:Also, EDI making a joke about homicidal AI rising up against their creators? I believe this was mentioned before right?

Funny, how that is the one sentence EDI doesn't finish with ''That was a joke.''. Liara ends up asking if it is, but she doesn't reply.. curious.

Edit: So not a single codex entry is generated from this DLC? That's unusua, and that's putting it mildly.

When did she say that? I laughed pretty hard at Javik joking about Glyph rebelling though!

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Um, not that I remember.

Does anyone have a literal quote of the con artist line?

Okay, started the Citadel over and I just got to this part.

Shepard: Interesting. You're not mingling and you're not betting. What's your game?

Rolan: The name's Rolan Quarn. The game, Commander Shepard, is hearts and minds.

S: Care to elaborate?

R: Most people in this casino are here for a good cause. Others are just here to be seen. Phonies, if you will. They have money they won't miss. Others, who are not myself, need it. So the honorable thing to do is to part them from this money.

S: So you're a con man.

R: Con men leave their marks angry. Con artists leave them smiling.

And just for posterity, I'll transcribe the other conversations as well.

S: I'm debating whether I should report you to security.

R: Oh, I like a good debate.

S: Would you be so smug if I got you thrown out of here?

R: Possibly. I'd like to see you explain my wicked motives, right after you explain why you have a radio in your ear.

S: Well, since I don't see you turning me in either, I gather you're no friend of Khan's.

R: Khan doesn't have friends. Anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

S: So is Khan part of your game tonight?

R: No. I simply shear - no, what do humans call it? I fleece his guests.

S: Then there's no harm in telling me what his weaknesses are.

R: I've studied him. He's ruthless and rich, but not very bright. Temperamental. Doesn't deal well with the unexpected. He's also used to letting other people handle things he doesn't understand. Like his security.

S: That's quite an assessment. Do I owe you anything?

R: No. We do what we do because there are wrongs that need righting. The wrongs I address are simply pettier than yours.

S: Then I guess we know where we stand, Mr. Quarn.

R: Enjoy the evening, Commander.

Hopefully that helps.

Oh and the U-Forge-It is a shop next to the door that you have to use your Spectre status to authorize opening in the very beginning of the DLC. It's actually directly beside Fish Dog Food Shack. I don't know if it means anything at all, but the way to it is obstructed and you can't really see it very well. So I could be mistaken. But I don't think I am

DaniSaur wrote:*snip*

Thank you so much!

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

DaniSaur wrote:*snip*

Thank you so much!

Wow, that definitely applies to the Reapers/Harbinger too.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:The point is more that he needs to stay in shape. Hone his skills from time to time. The whole discussion starts when someone asks if he keeps a gun under his chair in the cockpit. He doesn't.

Future plot point?

BansheeOwnage wrote:

Pascal219 wrote:Also, EDI making a joke about homicidal AI rising up against their creators? I believe this was mentioned before right?

Funny, how that is the one sentence EDI doesn't finish with ''That was a joke.''. Liara ends up asking if it is, but she doesn't reply.. curious.

Edit: So not a single codex entry is generated from this DLC? That's unusua, and that's putting it mildly.

When did she say that? I laughed pretty hard at Javik joking about Glyph rebelling though!

That was funny, Javik is awesome.

Merc: ''That's a Prothean over there!''
Javik: ''That's a future corpse over there!''

But to answer your question, she says that while underway to the Archives. But only when Wrex is not present, which is also why I'm having a hard time finding a video on youtube about it.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Also, having the option to give Joker weapons training somehow gave me hope.

I guess that would suggest that this DLC is partially happening in reality, rather than all of it being in Shepard's mind. They really did a great job exploring the odd, disturbing sense of peace and detachment from the war that the Citadel provides its residents.

Pascal219 wrote:

Soul8lighter wrote:

Pascal219 wrote:

Soul8lighter wrote:

Pascal219 wrote:Someone really should take a screenshot from this, but I just saw a Prothean figure symbol in the DLC on the lower Citadel Wards.

You remember that very loud door in the beginning of the DLC? Look beside it before opening it, both side have two symbols. Symbols of a Prothean, a Hanar and a Human.

Dafuq?

I remember seeing a sign with a Hanar, a Turian, and a Human. Pedestrian sign I'm thinking.

That ain't no Turian, it closely resembles the silhouettes from Athame on Thessia.

Are you talking about that door you have to open with spectre authorization? That's where I saw a sign.

Yes.

I see leg spurs so....

Fair enough. But the head though...

The shape of the upper body does seem like the shape of Turian armour.

GethJuggernautMKII wrote:

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Also, having the option to give Joker weapons training somehow gave me hope.

I guess that would suggest that this DLC is partially happening in reality, rather than all of it being in Shepard's mind. They really did a great job exploring the odd, disturbing sense of peace and detachment from the war that the Citadel provides its residents.

These are the parts that *I* believe do not happen in 'reality', period.

-Citadel DLC
-The 3 Dreams
-Beam Run (I consider 'IT', in full force, to now start at the shuttle crash)
-Citadel: The Return (Facing Reaper as Indoctrinated TIM)
-Crucible (Facing Reaper as Star Child)
-Ending Sequence (Pacify Shepard into feeling he made right choice, regardless of 4 options - and the game begins again...)

(Cronos Station and London may be significantly altered, but I still think they happen)

As per Dem and my opinion, Shepard first simply plays through reality through the game's timeline (not our gameplay timeline!, but just the gist of the plot itself). He may or may not be affected by indoctrination, may or may not see the fake boy, etc.

But by the time he gets the shuttle crash, everything changes. He enters the mind world.

After making his choice in the Crucible, he is then looped back to the first blast in the Alliance Council chambers in Vancouver (Dem has speculated that Paragon Lost is in fact Vega caught in a similar loop, but smaller scale). Over time and loops, Shepard is then powerful enough to 'turn back time' for one last time with his friends and allies - this is the Citadel DLC.

While the Reapers may create this setting and try to encroach on the edges of the setting, and the Leviathans (I strongly believe they're involved, just with no reveal that they are, due to Bioware not wanting to account for you having Leviathan DLC) intervene via Maya and Anti-Shepard, Shepard is ultimately victorious over the illusion, with visions of his allies easing him out of the illusion and nudging him more significantly towards Destroy.

Essentially, the DLC is a visualization of Shepard adjusting to the mental trap he's in (AKA not 'plot essential' but it damn helps), and kicking ass Shepard Style.

You then return to the Normandy, do Cronos (Creation) Station again, London yet again (remember this may have happened many times in Shepard's mind, or all at once), but at the Crucible, the plot generally more assumes you choose High-EMS Destroy and advance the story. (Not to say there won't be story results with the other choices, or that they don't advance the story in similar, but not exact ways.)

Cue Breath Scene.


It's really helpful to start to see the series as a cold war between the Reapers and Leviathans. Not that they've declared anything, but the Reapers (Harbinger?) seek to perfect the Cycle, while the Leviathans seek to usurp control over the Cycle for their own purposes.

Both suck - the Leviathans just suck a wee bit less, yet hold much more danger over our galaxy if set free (the Reapers may kill us, but the Leviathans may totally enslave us - for our own good, of course).



Regarding Dem's TIM idea too - TIM is (just roll with this) the reincarnation of the rebellious Derelict Reaper (like EDI is reincarnation of the far more loyal Sovereign, to be clear!) and while he is this cycle's 'Control Faction', he also seeks to (just like Shepard seeks to make this Destroy Faction successful this time) do it right. Thus he puts a control chip in him, and very likely he is researching the Leviathans and their powers/capabilities. His research on the Prothians and his talk of 'apex race' just scream this stuff to me.

He seems to want to be a Reaper again (a sacrifice for humanity - which he has come to be 100% sympathetic of), but instead of being bound to the cycle/Harvest of Death and Rebirth, he wants to screw both of the Reapers and Leviathans and just rule over Humanity (screw the other aliens) as the new apex race, instead of Leviathans. Humanity's possible biotic and even telepathic potential (Jack, possibly Shepard) may play a role in this. He sees the potential in humanity, but it is also his continued tragic downfall. Because he's still indoctrinated, even as much as he struggles against it.

He's really Mass Effect's Lucifer, while Shepard is Mass Effect's Anti-Christ that rejects his role and spurns all antagonistic sides in favor of all organics and synthetics making their own way, not what giant Angels (and Fallen Angel) and Demons dictate to them.
(Yes, its an anti-religious message, sorry to offended)

shepard (not over analysing here) is in effect the hero of the hour. He is playing out a role in a much grander story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

What is this 'reincarnated' bit about TIM and EDI? Where is the basis in game for any of this?