I am SO confused about all of this... (Major ending foreshadowing in Citadel DLC)

Yeah, I don't see any basis for that derelict Reaper business either.

The cyclical theory, it has crossed my mind as well, but I doubt Bioware is actually going for something that complicated.

It's easier for me to think of the Citadel DLC as experiencing the strange 'calming' effect that the Citadel seems to have on people. They forget about the Reapers, they forget about the war.

Handy compilation of Citadel archive scenes. I missed most of these during my playthrough. Kind of annoying they way they put these bits in front of you and then make you feel like you should be running right by them before the bad guy does his thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw

BlueLogic wrote:Handy compilation of Citadel archive scenes. I missed most of these during my playthrough. Kind of annoying they way they put these bits in front of you and then make you feel like you should be running right by them before the bad guy does his thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw

If there's no timer...explore...the only time I have ever felt like I had to race through something in ME, was when I was playing Arrival...sure have a sense of urgency, but don't miss the little nuggets - on a related note, not sure if you saw it, but Prettz did a video showing what the malfunctioning archive was - total kick ass nod to the Ark from Indiana Jones!

Okay, so replaying the social part of the DLC, this time fine-combing everything with my IT monocle equipped, and holy shit... SO MUCH stuff in the dialogue, in just the first few dates!

Hang on, going to post a lot of finds.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Okay, so replaying the social part of the DLC, this time fine-combing everything with my IT monocle equipped, and holy shit... SO MUCH stuff in the dialogue, in just the first few dates!

Hang on, going to post a lot of finds.

I told you all. In the worst case scenario, this DLC would be overloaded with foreshadowing and clues.

Major ending foreshadowing:

Miranda: I was hearing some confusing reports. Sounded like you had lost your mind.
Shepard: No doubt. My communications were hacked, among other things. I'm sure the news had a field day.
Miranda: It did. So... a clone?
(...)
Miranda: My focus at the time was bringing you back. We needed the real Shepard, not some cheap knock-off.
(...)
Shepard: I did. Fell right through the fish tank.
Miranda: How did you manage that?
Shepard: It... exploded. Hey, it was the clone's plan, not mine.
Miranda: Blowing up a fish tank shouldn't be part of anyone's plan. Although executing marine life seems to be some sort of hobby with you. No wonder your clone couldn't resist.
Shepard: It was the first step in taking over my whole life. We stopped it.
Miranda: Good thing. But why would it want your life? Why would anyone? All that running, jumping, gunfire? it's crazy.
Shepard: I try not to think about it.
Miranda: Probably for the best.
Shepard: Trust me, I know all this isn't normal.
Miranda: Speaking of trust... With all this clone business, how do I know you're the real Shepard?
Shepard: I don't know. You just do.
Miranda: Do I? That's the trouble with clones: You can never be sure.
(...)
Shepard: Well, clone or not, I'm the only Shepard left.
Miranda: Good point. I guess I'm stuck with you.
Shepard: I do have a crazy life, don't I?
Miranda: That you do, my friend... That you do.

'executing marine life'... yeah, giant space cuttlefish.

I think all this clone talk is major foreshadowing of an indoctrinated Shepard. So many references to the ending... blowing up a tube doesn't make any sense, neither does blowing up a fish tank, especially because the fish tank wasn't blown up in the first place. Interesting choice of words, Bioware. And then the reasons why anyone would want to indoctrinate Shepard, 'be' Shepard...

Your communications were hacked among other things, eh Shepard? Yeah, that's one way of putting what happened in the ending.

Awesome stuff, there's more.

Another reference to saving Shepard:

Liara: There was always something more important to do; a ruin to uncover, intel to gather... a commander to save.
Shepard: Hah. You just couldn't sit still without me.

NO SHIT, BIOWARE!

Check this out, the space chess game between Traynor and the Asari:

Polgara T'Suzsa: Neural feedback, It disincentivizes sacrificing pieces casually.

Or, how the catalyst tries to sway you from picking destroy. Nice one, Bioware.

During that same game, take the renegade interrupt:

Shepard: You're trash-talking. That's another strategy that doesn't work on the Reapers.

Is Shepard saying refuse won't win you the game? Sure sounds like.

It gets even better.

You know the claw machine that totally foreshadows the endings? (The balls look like the explosions, the machine tells you that you win even when you lose, and the order for the colours from best to worst is orange/red-pink-blue-green)

Check this out. Zaeed thinks the game is obviously rigged:

Zaeed: There was a kid here, snivelling brat, spending all his credits, crying.
Shepard: So you thought you'd get a prize for him.
Zaeed: He asked. Looked simple enough. Goddamn it.
Shepard: Where's the kid?
Zaeed: What do I care? Got any credits, Shepard?
Shepard: Isn't there something better we could go do?
Zaeed: What could possibly be more important than Zaeed Massani not getting bested by some fucking kids' game?
(...)

Now, let Shepard have a go instead of Zaeed. Shep will win the orange/red ball.

Shepard: Beginner's luck.
Zaeed: It's obviously rigged somehow.
Shepard: But I just... never mind.
Zaeed: I'm going to hunt down the shit-for-brains "inventor" of this crooked game and pull his inspiration out through his arse-hole.
(...)

Now finally, take the renegade option, the one that's labelled "You conquered it. Move on."

Shepard: Zaeed, will another victory ever match the one you just experienced?
Zaeed: You're right. I guess you've been around that block a few times.

Really, Bioware?

Some brat is making you play a rigged game? What could possibly be more important than not getting bested by some kids' game?

Also, nice little reference to all the ending hate directed at the writers. You're obviously just having a laugh at the whole ending fiasco.

Will another victory ever match the one you just experienced? REALLY, BIOWARE?

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah, I don't see any basis for that derelict Reaper business either.

The cyclical theory, it has crossed my mind as well, but I doubt Bioware is actually going for something that complicated.

It's easier for me to think of the Citadel DLC as experiencing the strange 'calming' effect that the Citadel seems to have on people. They forget about the Reapers, they forget about the war.

1)I consider when you put the following together:
-TIM speeches in ME2 and ME3 (especially ME3, but also the easy ME2 lines like "Next thing you'll be telling me you want to grow your own Reaper." by Shepard)
-the level and lines in Derelict Reaper
-the Sanctuary level (big time)
-the comic book that showed Jack Harper's history

It really comes together, for me.
Remember, the idea is NOT that The Illusive Man is the Derelict Reaper. The Reaper is dead. But 'even dead gods can dream' - The Illusive Man is the leftover husk signal from the Derelict Reaper (remember that ME3 hints that specific Reapers control specific husks...), passed through the Artifact on Palaven, passed through another human, into Jack Harper.
He's a different entity, still NOT a Reaper - bears repeating. Even if he identifies himself with this Reaper, he doesn't know everything about Reapers and their workings, even if he "knows how they think" (as he stated).
But he's quite willing to become one - for the 'good of humanity' -_-

The Reapers don't really consider TIM a threat in himself though, because he IS indoctrinated. Maybe not under refined control by an actual Reaper, but he's still indoctrinated into Reaper mentality and thus an easy instrument for them to control... usually. Sanctuary was the exception, and a sign that The Illusive Man has a larger gameplan that the Reapers themselves may not even be aware of.

(This gameplan possibly being that he is implanted with a control chip, controls a Human-Reaper, that controls all other Reapers and husks and 'evolved' humans, but he is also kept in check via this chip. Humanity then 'evolves', but doesn't become total 'husks'.
It's a heavy risk and the prize is huge, but it's just not worth it, and doesn't fit 90% of Shepards in the end. Control may always be possible in the Mass Effect universe, as a concept, but it ALWAYS comes with backfiring and major resulting issues.)

2)They haven't done anything THIS complicated, but they still have filled games with things like: foreshadowing that you're really the bad guy/Revan all along, that your master was manipulating you this whole time, that the Citadel isn't really a refuge, but a trap for galactic annihilation.
They're capable of it, at least, imo.

3)You are too smart to think of Citadel DLC as just that. It's far too direct with its illusory elements and truckfuls of foreshadowing.
Considering my investigations into the Wintersun lyrics and even lines like from Joker ("I'd feel better if we had a tighter plan. Like time travel. Or teaching the Reapers to love.”), I don't think Silversun Strip even exists.

Oh and by the way, I'm playing through the game again and it seems that a ton of lines that we thought was just 'fanservicey', is actually spoken by another character previously in the game. Really. I wish I had a pad and pen to write it down as a played.
It's VERY easy for me to now consider Citadel DLC to be Shepard rewinding events in his mind, this time of his own accord, in order to jumpstart himself into picking Destroy.

Oh but Maya is totally the Leviathans butting in like the inept enemies they are.

*is more confused now than last night*

lol it's not that confusing to me.

TLDR of my stuff:
-TIM is still TIM, just with another layer of info to him. He's not Jack Harper, or a Reaper - He's TIM.
-Shepard is dreaming shit, with at least 70-80% of it being accurate account. *shrug* All the nightmare references in this game make even more sense now.

But you threw in Maya tied to the Leviathans and ... well... I get what you're saying about TIM being indoctrinated, but not under control of any specific Reaper, it's the other stuff. *shrug*

CSSteele wrote:But you threw in Maya tied to the Leviathans and ... well... I get what you're saying about TIM being indoctrinated, but not under control of any specific Reaper, it's the other stuff. *shrug*

I throw Maya in because:
1)Her Dialogue (I won't get into this until I do the DLC again on my NG+ file)
2)The logo on all the Cat6's
3)The green eyes on everyone
4)The feeling that Maya is born from Shepard's memories of others, particularly Traynor (but also more)

I'm not saying Maya is a Leviathan.

But I am saying that just like the 3 characters played by Leviathans in the Leviathan DLC, Maya (meaning: Illusion) and Anti-Shepard and the Cat-6s are the Leviathans playing a role in Shepard's larger dream (created by Harbinger, while Shepard is in the rubble of his shuttle crash near the Beam of London).

They're basically mind hacking him, and Shepard will have none of that. He gathers his allies (= his ties to his friends and loves) and pushes them out. The Leviathans are crafty, but they're certainly not nearly as evil as the Reapers. Just as how the Cat6's are crafty, but not nearly as dangerous and disturbing as Cerberus.


I consider any and all Leviathan related content to be purely optional in ME3, but it'll probably be a lead-in to the story of the next game. (Not saying they'll even be the main enemy or anything, just that they'll be involved and learning what we learned in ME3 may be helpful)

I just love the three card monte Vorcha. "Find the Lady, yes? Play, yes? Winna winna chicken dinnah!"

Left, middle, right... you choose.

"You lose. Ahhhhhhhh, you lose!"

Totally throwing a bone to the Refuse followers. The only way to win (or at least, not end up worse off) being not to choose at all.

Just like the Catalyst is playing three card monte with the player at the end. Dissembling. Using smoke and mirrors to throw the player off. Giving Shepard (and the player) the illusion of choice.

"Choose! ......ahhhahaha, you LOSE."

ElSuperGecko wrote:I just love the three card monte Vorcha. "Find the Lady, yes? Play, yes? Winna winna chicken dinnah!"

Left, middle, right... you choose.

"You lose. Ahhhhhhhh, you lose!"

Totally throwing a bone to the Refuse followers. The only way to win (or at least, not end up worse off, being not to choose at all.

Just like the Catalyst is playing three card monte with the player at the end. Dissembling. Using smoke and mirrors to throw the player off.

"Choose! ......ahhhahaha, you LOSE."

Exactly! I also think I tried to win that stupid game more times then I can admit...It took a while to figure out it just wasn't possible.

If the game represents the cylcle of destruction by the reapers - and the three cards represent the three choices offered by the catalyst - what all who support refuse choice claim they do - then consider this - even if you don't make a choice - the game still happens - they choice is made for you, and vorcha still says that you loose. It all happens regardless of your participation. - this is something that peple who say this game promotes refuse as the only right choice should think about. Because in this kind of game - when you, lose - everybody lose. Same as if somebody loses - everybody loses.

And before you reply - "but I don't lose 10 credits if I don't choose! - that must mean that I win!"
- think carefully what those 10 credits represent.
10 credits - 10 silver coins that Judas got for ratting out on Christ. - and ultimately - it is the price of a man's soul. - you're supposed to pay those 10 silver coins to a ferrymna - who will let you pass into the next life - the afterlife.

Judas, by selling out Christ for 10 silver coins condemmed his soul for eternal damnation.
A penny saved is a penny earned - congratulations on saving those 10 credits - you just sold out your own soul for those 10 credits and assured that you will eternally be damned. Good job, refusers. Now, go hang yourself during the next thunderstorm.

demersel wrote:If the game represents the cylcle of destruction by the reapers - and the three cards represent the three choices offered by the catalyst - what all who support refuse choice claim they do - then consider this - even if you don't make a choice - the game still happens - they choice is made for you, and vorcha still says that you loose. It all happens regardless of your participation. - this is something that peple who say this game promotes refuse as the only right choice should think about. Because in this kind of game - when you, lose - everybody lose. Same as if somebody loses - everybody loses.

And before you reply - "but I don't lose 10 credits if I don't choose! - that must mean that I win!"
- think carefully what those 10 credits represent.
10 credits - 10 silver coins that Judas got for ratting out on Christ. - and ultimately - it is the price of a man's soul. - you're supposed to pay those 10 silver coins to a ferryman - who will let you pass into the next life - the afterlife.

Judas, by selling out Christ for 10 silver coins condemned his soul for eternal damnation.
A penny saved is a penny earned - congratulations on saving those 10 credits - you just sold out your own soul for those 10 credits and assured that you will eternally be damned. Good job, refusers. Now, go hang yourself during the next thunderstorm.

well that puts a rather dark slant on my love for refusal.

However since i almost always pick destroy thats gotta be a win right there?

Maybe the three choices are the test? has anyone ever picked the correct choice? Choose Wisely. Reminds me of the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - -where Indy has to choose the cup of christ - the other dude goes for the best looking one and dies - whereas indy chooses the most humble cup and wins.

sometimes the correct answer is the simplest. not the one with most glitter (synthesis) or even seemingly the most attractive for the power hungry of us (control).

Yes, dork - i think that is exactly how it is. Citadel DLC even has a direct Indiana Jones Reference - the citadel Council Archives have an image of the Arc of the covenants in them.

I suppose I have my parents to thank for telling me from a young age that if something appears too good to be true, it usually is.

To me it is a simple choice.

There are no winners in war. The reapers might not perceive this as a war, but we are fighting for our very existence.

Someone comes along and offers us a 'kill the reapers' option. Trillions of people are dying all around us. We have a mandate to destroy the reapers. Every life they take is a crime against us.

Shoot the f..king tube.

And to those who would appease the reapers by picking control or synthesis.....congratulations for being a complete moron. The galaxy put it's faith in you to destroy the reapers and you fucked it up.

anoter hint - Through out the whole of Citadel: the return mission - you have the gun. except there is no enemies for you to shoot. The only thing you can use this gun - is shoot the tube. (you can talk the Illusive man into shooting himself.)

demersel wrote:anoter hint - Through out the whole of Citadel: the return mission - you have the gun. except there is no enemies for you to shoot. The only thing you can use this gun - is shoot the tube. (you can talk the Illusive man into shooting himself.)

Wrong. You can Renegade interrupt the Illusive Man.

https://youtu.be/i5LZAgcyy_w?t=4m57s

Yes, you can renegade interrupt him, - but you don't HAVE to do it - you can talk him into doing it himself as well. Past that point - the only use you can have for the gun - is to shoot the tube.

gotta love self determination.

demersel wrote:Yes, you can renegade interrupt him, - but you don't HAVE to do it - you can talk him into doing it himself as well. Past that point - the only use you can have for the gun - is to shoot the tube.

Well, your wording was wrong then. And you don't even HAVE to shoot the tube if you're so inclined.

There is no other way to acivate destroy choice, other than using a gun for it.

Really? No comments about my finds at all?

ElSuperGecko wrote:I just love the three card monte Vorcha. "Find the Lady, yes? Play, yes? Winna winna chicken dinnah!"

Left, middle, right... you choose.

"You lose. Ahhhhhhhh, you lose!"

Totally throwing a bone to the Refuse followers. The only way to win (or at least, not end up worse off) being not to choose at all.

Just like the Catalyst is playing three card monte with the player at the end. Dissembling. Using smoke and mirrors to throw the player off. Giving Shepard (and the player) the illusion of choice.

"Choose! ......ahhhahaha, you LOSE."

I don't agree with this at all.

First off, you don't win by not participating, nobody else wins in your stead either.

Most importantly, the Vorcha doesn't tell you that you win. He says you lose. The catalyst convinces you that you're winning if you make a choice.

The parallel with refuse just isn't there. The only parallel I see is that the game is rigged.

I see a parallel to refuse here:

Shepard: You're trash-talking. That's another strategy that doesn't work on the Reapers.