Re: I am SO confused about all of this... (Major ending foreshadowing in Citadel DLC)

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:44 pm

Doomsday - yes, great finds - i've found it all too - but I'd like to point out the the entire DLC consists of stuff like that. Everysingle conversation, datapad entry, room decoration - they are all about the ending. So there is actually not much point in pointing out single things - it is just one big reveal.

by AxStapleton Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:02 pm

demersel wrote:There is no other way to acivate destroy choice, other than using a gun for it.

It isn't the only choice, objectively speaking, no matter how flawed the others are.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:12 pm

demersel wrote:Doomsday - yes, great finds - i've found it all too - but I'd like to point out the the entire DLC consists of stuff like that. Everysingle conversation, datapad entry, room decoration - they are all about the ending. So there is actually not much point in pointing out single things - it is just one big reveal.

I'll keep doing it though. Stuff is way too interesting.

by BlueLogic Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:22 pm

demersel wrote:If the game represents the cylcle of destruction by the reapers - and the three cards represent the three choices offered by the catalyst - what all who support refuse choice claim they do - then consider this - even if you don't make a choice - the game still happens - they choice is made for you, and vorcha still says that you loose. It all happens regardless of your participation. - this is something that peple who say this game promotes refuse as the only right choice should think about. Because in this kind of game - when you, lose - everybody lose. Same as if somebody loses - everybody loses.

And before you reply - "but I don't lose 10 credits if I don't choose! - that must mean that I win!"
- think carefully what those 10 credits represent.
10 credits - 10 silver coins that Judas got for ratting out on Christ. - and ultimately - it is the price of a man's soul. - you're supposed to pay those 10 silver coins to a ferrymna - who will let you pass into the next life - the afterlife.

Judas, by selling out Christ for 10 silver coins condemmed his soul for eternal damnation.
A penny saved is a penny earned - congratulations on saving those 10 credits - you just sold out your own soul for those 10 credits and assured that you will eternally be damned. Good job, refusers. Now, go hang yourself during the next thunderstorm.

Well, Judas actually got 30 pieces of silver (10 would have just been a rip off Wink

), but otherwise your point remains intact. Hmm...I still like refuse. I don't see my skepticism, rather Shepard's skepticism, of the line this Reaper overlord kid is feeding me to be unwarranted. There's no reason, in my mind, to think that this is the way to activate the Crucible in the first place. Shepard passed out in front of the control panel. The elevator seems like more like a detour to me. One last ditch effort by the Reapers to stop Shepard from pressing the kill switch on em. Of course, that assumes that everything in the Citadel is real. I still think what we see after the Mako crashes is an indoctrination attempt.

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:26 pm

You lose 10 - becuase that is the price fro the ferry to the afterlife. You'd save 30 -because this is how much it is going to cost to try out all the choices. :)

And it is not about the way to active the crucible - the whole premise is fake and is a set up. It is about what you want to do. Refuse is you still not wanting to destory the reapers. It is that simple.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:34 pm

Shepard: You're trash-talking. That's another strategy that doesn't work on the Reapers.

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:36 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Shepard: You're trash-talking. That's another strategy that doesn't work on the Reapers.

And yet, strangly - it does, becuase the Asari represent reapers in that scene.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:38 pm

The Asari was trash-talking to Traynor, so no. Unless I misunderstand what you are saying.

Anyway, I think it points to refuse.

by BlueLogic Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:40 pm

demersel wrote:You'd lose 30 to try out all the choices. :)

And it is not about the way to active the crucible - the whole premise is fake and is a set up. It is about what you want to do. Refuse is you still not wanting to destory the reapers. It is that simple.

LOL, 10 * 3 = 30, good call ;)

I agree, it's about what you want to do. Considering what Shepard says when he chooses Refuse, it sounds like he wants to kill the Reapers, but refuses to be limited to the options provided.

Pretty consistent with his modus operandi thus far. Hardly a refusal to kill them. But, this conversation feels like deja vu. No need to argue the validity of Refuse all over again. We'll find out soon enough what's what.

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:44 pm

@DD -

Your trash-talking to the asari gets her off her game - it works on her.

The asari in this scene represent the reapers, while traynor represent the leviathans

Traynor is not as good at this game as she thinks - she cannot win without you.

And think about what is happening - you're helping traynor to get back at that Asari for knocking her out of the game long time ago.

Traynor is leviathans spy.

This is only reinforced by the fact that Maya - is a caricature of traynor - and she leads the Cat6 merks who all have the same logo as the ship from leviathan. (the fact that traynor helps you to get back the normandy means nothing - because in shepard's mind - trainor is on his side.)

by MovieMachine Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:45 pm

BlueLogic wrote:We'll find out soon enough what's what.

Optimism is a tough thing to come by these days...

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:47 pm

Hate to break it to you, but in refuse Shepards wants to die free, on his own terms.

by Hanako Ikezawa Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:47 pm

demersel wrote:

This is only reinforced by the fact that Maya - is a caricature of traynor - and she leads the Cat6 merks who all have the same logo as the ship from leviathan. (the fact that traynor helps you to get back the normandy means nothing - because in shepard's mind - trainor is on his side.)

How is Maya Brooks the caricature of Samantha Traynor?

by BlueLogic Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:05 pm

MovieMachine wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:We'll find out soon enough what's what.

Optimism is a tough thing to come by these days...

Quite so. Although, I say we'll find out soon because if they don't give us an IT reveal in a few weeks then I'm not really expecting it at all. So, I wasn't really being optimistic.

demersel wrote:Hate to break it to you, but in refuse Shepards wants to die free, on his own terms.

Shepard: "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
Reaper Overlord: "Then you will die knowing you failed to save everything you fought for."
Shepard: "I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."
Reaper Overlord: "SO BE IT!"

He doesn't want to die. He said "if I die". I don't understand why so many people seem to think this is Shepard committing suicide or giving up. Does anyone think Patrick Henry wanted to die when he said "Give me liberty, or give me death"? No, he wanted to live free, and he was willing to risk death to achieve freedom. That's exactly what Shepard is saying here. How is this actually a point of contention??

I can understand debate over whether or not it's possible to defeat the Reapers conventionally, but the argument that Shepard wants to die based on what he says is shaky at best.

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:07 pm

And yet he doesn't do everything he can to stop them - there is an option to stop them once and for all right there - and he doesn't take it.

But really, let's stop this pointless debate. Everyone is entiltled to their own opinion. The bets are placed, the bets are final - so let's just wait and see if the wheel is spun. ))

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:10 pm

Agreed - let's not go all refuse vs. destroy again.

by BlueLogic Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:14 pm

demersel wrote:But really, let's stop this pointless debate. Everyone is entiltled to their own opinion. The bets are placed, the bets are final - so let's just wait and see if the wheel is spun. ))

Indeed! Let's hope at least one of us is right! Very Happy

As opposed to...you know...them --> alien

by MovieMachine Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:17 pm

BlueLogic wrote:
MovieMachine wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:We'll find out soon enough what's what.

Optimism is a tough thing to come by these days...
Quite so. Although, I say we'll find out soon because if they don't give us an IT reveal in a few weeks then I'm not really expecting it at all. So, I wasn't really being optimistic.

Oh, I misunderstood that. My bad.

And I agree, something needs to happen soon.

by dorktainian Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:39 pm

BlueLogic wrote:

He doesn't want to die. He said "if I die". I don't understand why so many people seem to think this is Shepard committing suicide or giving up. Does anyone think Patrick Henry wanted to die when he said "Give me liberty, or give me death"? No, he wanted to live free, and he was willing to risk death to achieve freedom. That's exactly what Shepard is saying here. How is this actually a point of contention??

I can understand debate over whether or not it's possible to defeat the Reapers conventionally, but the argument that Shepard wants to die based on what he says is shaky at best.

the answer to that lies with bioware. I like refuse. I like destroy. Either being the correct choice is a win for me.

The whole shep dialogue in refuse is pretty epic.... up yours starbrat

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:24 pm

I think the Vorcha hustler's game is simply symbolic for the ending in the sense that you can't win; you can't beat the Reapers.

It doesn't mean anything for refuse, because refusing to play doesn't actually win you (or anyone else) the game.

It is completely in line with the ending foreshadowing claw game, only the beauty of it is that the claw game tells you that you're a winner, even if you pick green and lose.

by Guest Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:53 pm

demersel wrote:@DD -

Your trash-talking to the asari gets her off her game - it works on her.

The asari in this scene represent the reapers, while traynor represent the leviathans

Traynor is not as good at this game as she thinks - she cannot win without you.

And think about what is happening - you're helping traynor to get back at that Asari for knocking her out of the game long time ago.

Traynor is leviathans spy.

This is only reinforced by the fact that Maya - is a caricature of traynor - and she leads the Cat6 merks who all have the same logo as the ship from leviathan. (the fact that traynor helps you to get back the normandy means nothing - because in shepard's mind - trainor is on his side.)

I am VERY worried about a reveal scene with Traynor where she suddengly gets all James Bond villian on us.

I kinda want to still save her, in this possible case.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:46 pm

Good point about the trash-talking, but...

Traynor is Leviathans' spy?

Where do you people get these bizarre ideas?

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:04 pm

@DD Oh? We go places! Beautifull places... Scary places.... places that will later haunt you in nightmares.... That is the price of swimming deep.

by Lombus Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:10 pm

SwobyJ wrote:
demersel wrote:@DD -

Your trash-talking to the asari gets her off her game - it works on her.

The asari in this scene represent the reapers, while traynor represent the leviathans

Traynor is not as good at this game as she thinks - she cannot win without you.

And think about what is happening - you're helping traynor to get back at that Asari for knocking her out of the game long time ago.

Traynor is leviathans spy.

This is only reinforced by the fact that Maya - is a caricature of traynor - and she leads the Cat6 merks who all have the same logo as the ship from leviathan. (the fact that traynor helps you to get back the normandy means nothing - because in shepard's mind - trainor is on his side.)

I am VERY worried about a reveal scene with Traynor where she suddengly gets all James Bond villian on us.

I kinda want to still save her, in this possible case.

Oh yeah she's a villain, she will kill us all with her toothbrush :devil:

I am SO confused about all of this... (Major ending foreshadowing in Citadel DLC) - Page 12 Trayno10

by demersel Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:21 pm

@Lombus
Are you kidding? A real bad-ass can kill you with anything!

and that thing that she has is powerfull enough to force the lock of a SpeckOps grade mlitary space vessel. Imagine what it can do to your intestines? Ultrasound is scary.

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