Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

by **DoomsdayDevice** Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:52 pm

Terramine wrote:if you needlessly kill off a bunch of people. You are evil, end of story.

If you refuse to do anything, you'll be wiping out all the races of the cycle.

Yeah, "needlessly". Laughing

Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence is your answer.

by Guest Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:32 pm

Bioware wanted a Reapers Win ending.

Nothing outright says that Shepard can't win as well.

"U laks imaginationland" -Chris Priestly

by TurianRebel212 Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:49 pm

Terramine wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:Shepard is a catalyst. He/she is an agent of change. But Shep does not change.

Now tell me.

What ending does Shepard NOT change in.

There is only one.

That is the "canon" ending of ME3.

It has always been.
Refuse. Destroy he accepts the reapers and their ideas to some degree. End of story. Even just in the way he sacrifices the Geth... which is to say, for some reason destroying the Reapers comes at a cost. That's not right, sacrifice is necessary but only along the way... not specifically, in the destruction of the Reapers themselves. The way it is, it's necessitating the Reaper's existence in one way or another. Even this one thing is multilayered... for example it invalidates everything Shepard has achieved up until this point and in fact lends credit to the idea that it's actually all the Reaper's doing. The peace between the quarians and geth, the credit goes to the Reapers because without them the Geth cannot even exist. In the first game Anderson tells Shepard about Saren, and when he explains that Saren killed all those people... even if you answer with "so would I" you're then forced to listen to Anderson say "only if there is no other way, Saren doesn't even look for another option".

And that's just it, if you needlessly kill off a bunch of people. You are evil, end of story. You're a bad guy. You don't even try to find another way, so you cant say that Destroy is necessary. As far as Shepard knows, he DOESN'T know that Refuse will actually result in loss. And losing because you tried to look for another way, IS preferable. Then the blood isn't on your hands, you did you job, nothing is your fault.

Lets not forget, that in the leaked ending it was Refuse and Synthesis. There was no Control and there was no Destroy. All they did, was purposely made it LOOK like there was an ABC ending... but what it really, is still a choice between compromise with the Reapers or staying as is. You guys seem really blind to not see it. See, an ABC ending... means that all 3 endings are the SAME. Everyone bitched about the vanilla ending missing the point all together. They KNOW its ABC in fact, it goes further than that. It's symbolic. It's saying that all 3 endings are a game over, because they involve giving in to the Reapers.

And it all ties together, you guys keep talking about how destroy is the canon ending. You don't get it. Refuse is the ending of every ITers wet dreams, or at least a promise of it. Because you say no and what do you get? IT style "SO BE IT". You guys who focus on the fact that it doesn't result in a reveal, you're in the same ball as the literalists. They never planned to reveal in this game, that's what the next game is for. And trust me if the next game is true, ALL 3 OF THOSE ENDINGS NEVER HAPPENED. And how will they get out of that?

You see, they CANT say all Destroyers are right. You don't seem to get how that alone would render all this a total failure. They'd create a shit storm and would only make things worse. But would work is, is saying that almost everyone was wrong, and that the people who got it right... got it right because of a whole lot more, than what color coding they picked.

Besides what about people who picked Destroy for non IT reasons. Maybe they just thought it was badass, or they don't trust the other options. Those are WRONG REASONS. When making art, the whole point is for people to GET what you were doing. That's the only time your interpretation or for that matter your choice truly matters. People bitch about illusion of choice, but even if they make the next game reflect all 3 choices... would your choice truly matter? How? Anyone could've picked the same choice as you, its nothing special.

But if you must figure out what Bioware is saying first, if you truly understand it. THEN your choice matters, because it's not a walk in the fucking park. And sure some people can pick refuse cause herp derp. But, it's vastly less so than the people who pick the 3 original endings cause herp derp. The vast majority of Destroyers AREN'T ITers. They are the literalists, the people who take it as is.

I could keep going, y'all don't take this subject very seriously but im just scratching the surface.

Eh, Wrong.

The only ending in which Shepard doesn't change but enacts change is high ems destroy. Duh.

In all the other "choices", they are not endings, as I've stated there is only one ending. In all the other choices Shepard dies.. He changes. Sometimes sacrificed, sometimes become the new Reaper Shep God and sometimes just gives up. But Shepard dies.

Except....

And there it is.

by TurianRebel212 Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:05 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Terramine wrote:if you needlessly kill off a bunch of people. You are evil, end of story.

If you refuse to do anything, you'll be wiping out all the races of the cycle.

Yeah, "needlessly".

Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence is your answer.

Again. Duh.

THE ENTIRE FUCKING SERIES TELLS YOU THAT THE REAPERS ARE EVIL AND MUST BE DESTROYED. IN ALL OTHER CHOICES-(EXCEPT HIGH EMS DESTROY) YOU PLACATE WITH THE EVIL KILLING MACHINES.

IT IS QUITE SIMPLE FOLKS. DID YOU PASS THE CRUCIBLE OR NOT?

Synthesis- Shepard DIES. Reapers survive.

Control-Shepard DIES. Reapers Survive.

Refuse-Sheaprd not only dies, but quits and totally derps out. Reapers Survive. Refuse is THE ultimate 4th wall break and hint and meta troll by BioWare. Face slappingly so, lol.

And... And. Wait for it.... Wait....

High EMS Destroy... Guess what Happens. Reversal time! Shepard LIVES, Reapers are destroyed.

Gee, one of these choices is not like the others....

hur dur dur hur.

And that's not even with context, and hints, and themes and 4th wall breaks and you know.....

INDOCTRIFUCKINGNATION being a major, if not, the major theme of the Games!!!

Think about it. All the big baddies is this series are indoctrinated off their fuckin' asses.

DO YA THINK BIOWARE WAS TRYING TO SAY SOMETHING WITH THAT??

How can anyone NOT believe that's whats going on is the real question?

DERP.

by dorktainian Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:55 am

Shepard lives. Of course he lives.

by ElSuperGecko Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:13 pm

CSSteele wrote:Terra, the problem with that is simply the fact that Refuse wasn't an original option. We had to wait months for the EC to give us the option to 'win'. Add in that the only option to give the 'Shepard lives' breath scene is max assets Destroy.

Other than that, I do lean towards Refuse being the 'correct' choice, but without having a counter-point for the 2 problems I just listed, ones that fit with everything, I can't jump behind it 100%

This.

Refuse is a token gesture by Boware... albeit one that sticks two fingers up at all the players who wanted to reject their three coloursw ending choices.

Refuse never shipped with the game. It wasn't part of Bioware's original plan. Many Mass Effect 3 players never even experienced it as an option. Seems legit.

by dorktainian Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:50 pm

i would have loved for them to put sheps speech (refuse) just before he blows the tube.

by Rifneno Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:50 pm

Ugh. Now I'm glad I didn't see this thread for a few days.

Fans: We don't want to use the crucible! *sticks out tongue*
BW: (very annoyed) You don't want to use it? FINE, EVERYONE DIES A HORRIBLE FUCKING DEATH AND EVERYONE YOU'VE EVER LOVED IS BRUTALLY HARVESTED! YOU DON'T EVEN GET AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR BEATING THE GAME BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T BEAT THE REAPERS! HOW DO YOU ASSHOLES LIKE THAT?!
Refusers: My God! This is PERFECT! This is everything I've ever wanted! This is clearly the win option!

It takes a special kind of moron to get that excited of being openly mocked. Well, you enjoyed it when BW made fun of you, you'll probably think this post is the best thing since sex too.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:53 pm

Agreed, it's absolute nonsense.

by Terramine Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:37 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:
Eh, Wrong.

The only ending in which Shepard doesn't change but enacts change is high ems destroy. Duh.

In all the other "choices", they are not endings, as I've stated there is only one ending. In all the other choices Shepard dies.. He changes. Sometimes sacrificed, sometimes become the new Reaper Shep God and sometimes just gives up. But Shepard dies.

Except....

And there it is.

Asserting the idea that refuse is giving up, is invalid. I've already refuted that. You also are wrong. Shepard makes a change in his resolve in Destroy, he makes a compromise with the Reapers. The only ending where Shepard doesn't change is Refuse.

Again I'll cite the fact that Control and Destroy didn't exist in the leaked script. Only Synthesis and Refuse.

Which brings me to the rabid critter

Rifneno wrote:Ugh. Now I'm glad I didn't see this thread for a few days.

Fans: We don't want to use the crucible! *sticks out tongue*
BW: (very annoyed) You don't want to use it? FINE, EVERYONE DIES A HORRIBLE FUCKING DEATH AND EVERYONE YOU'VE EVER LOVED IS BRUTALLY HARVESTED! YOU DON'T EVEN GET AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR BEATING THE GAME BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T BEAT THE REAPERS! HOW DO YOU ASSHOLES LIKE THAT?!
Refusers: My God! This is PERFECT! This is everything I've ever wanted! This is clearly the win option!

It takes a special kind of moron to get that excited of being openly mocked. Well, you enjoyed it when BW made fun of you, you'll probably think this post is the best thing since sex too.

No rif it's not mocking the fans. It's the original ending, the one in the leaked script. There is only Synthesis and Refuse. The fans didn't bitch about using the crucible, everyone bitched about what the crucible did... how it worked... etc and the catalyst. Refuse isn't about the crucible being ridiculous, it's specifically Shepard refusing to use it because it requires compromise with the Reapers. But of course you didn't even refute my arguments, you just... mocked me, which you didn't even hide it. You admitted it. Sooo yeah.

by Terramine Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:42 pm

Maybe I should just put this into perspective... what is going on here? A mind battle.

Everything is in context, in the context of the whole reaper war in context of everything. Synthesis is what? Coexistence with the Reapers. Control is Controlling the Reapers. Destroy is Destroying them.

But, it's all a mind game. Of course destroying the Reapers is the goal, RefuseShep completely agrees with that. But Refuse... what is it? Refusal of the Reapers and everything they stand for. Bam. That's how you win, hold the line.

Destroy is destruction of the Reapers through the acceptance of them and what they say.
Refuse is destruction of the Reapers through rejecting them and everything they say.

by Rifneno Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:35 pm

I don't give a damn about the "leaked" script. It was full of nonsense, and this is nonsense. Which is probably why it was cut from release: because it was stupid and wrong.

I love how refusers pretend that destroy is supporting the Reapers. That's why Starbrat points at the other two options and acts like they're both fine and great even if he should hate control - but then does everything he can to dissuade you from destroy. "No, dude, don't do that! You'll destroy all organic life FOREVER if you do that! Like, no organics anymore ever! Even we leave some! Dude, no! DUDE!"

Oh, but you're using the Crucib--oh no wait, you're literally ATTACKING IT. Yeah, this is a battle of the mind. And Starbinger is just there trying to sway you from destroy. It's there, and he can't make it go away. How is that so goddamn hard to understand?

Hearty lulz were had at "Refuse is destruction of the Reapers through rejecting them and everything they say.". No, refuse is the acceptance of the Reapers because you're literally LETTING them win. You're surrendering and letting them harvest the galaxy. Everyone dies because you laid down and spread your legs for the Reapers. There is no breath scene, there is only death and failure. You don't hold the line, you roll out of the red carpet for the Reapers to come on through.

by Terramine Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:05 am

Rifneno wrote:I don't give a damn about the "leaked" script. It was full of nonsense, and this is nonsense. Which is probably why it was cut from release: because it was stupid and wrong.

I love how refusers pretend that destroy is supporting the Reapers. That's why Starbrat points at the other two options and acts like they're both fine and great even if he should hate control - but then does everything he can to dissuade you from destroy. "No, dude, don't do that! You'll destroy all organic life FOREVER if you do that! Like, no organics anymore ever! Even we leave some! Dude, no! DUDE!"

Oh, but you're using the Crucib--oh no wait, you're literally ATTACKING IT. Yeah, this is a battle of the mind. And Starbinger is just there trying to sway you from destroy. It's there, and he can't make it go away. How is that so goddamn hard to understand?

Hearty lulz were had at "Refuse is destruction of the Reapers through rejecting them and everything they say.". No, refuse is the acceptance of the Reapers because you're literally LETTING them win. You're surrendering and letting them harvest the galaxy. Everyone dies because you laid down and spread your legs for the Reapers. There is no breath scene, there is only death and failure. You don't hold the line, you roll out of the red carpet for the Reapers to come on through.

Uh rif you need to check again, he doesn't dissaude you from destroy. Show me where he expresses in any way, that it's a NEGATIVE? He is neutral about it. He's stating it like blunt cold fact. He doesn't state and opinion one way or the other nor is his tone indicating it's a bad thing to him. In fact the tone overall is, that it's a perfectly legitimate choice. Which doesn't make any fucking sense. All around it's IDENTICAL to Control.

Speaking of which you're only hurting your own argument by pointing to control. He should be pissed about Reapers being controlled... but he's not because it first requires you to accept them. Accept what Harbinger is telling you, that the Reapers dont have to die, etc. He's not pissed about it, because if you choose it... you lose. Similarly he's NOT pissed about Destroy either. Because it first requires you to accept that the Reapers are necessary in the process. Which doesn't make sense, how can you destroy them... if they're necessary? You can't, it nullifies it. The same way Control gets nullified.

But refuse he BLUNTLY ASSERTS, at points with a quick assertive tone and a pissed off one at other points... that it wont work, it's hopeless, blahblahblah. He's 100% against it.

Put it into perspective.
Destroy: Catalyst 100000% accepts it.
Refuse: Catalyst 0% accepts it.

"No, refuse is the acceptance of the Reapers because you're literally LETTING them win."

First off. It's not bioware painting the picture, it's the Reapers. Destroy, Control and Refuse... I mean obviously bioware is painting the picture of mass effect, but the outcomes of the choices, are what the REAPERS want you to see. They're injecting it into Shepard's head. You accept this much. You however DON'T apply it to refuse? Which is bullshit, illogical, baseless. You must apply the same to Refuse's outcome.

As for LETTING it happen. If you were told to kill a specific man... and you were told this man was evil, he would go on to bring about the end of the world. But you had no proof of this... and lets say you actually came to the conclusion, that letting him live is the right choice. But you at least don't accept that he is evil. But then BAM, turns out he really was evil. And the world DOES end... now... did you just LET the world end? No you didn't. That's like saying you LET the milk spill that you ACCIDENTALLY spilled. Let, depends on INTENT. So even if he turns out to be evil and the world does end. You didn't LET it happen.

So similarly, even IF the endings were taken at face value. Even if you believed it all literally happened. Shepard doesn't LET the Reaper's win... he just FAILS TO STOP THEM. News flash, massive difference. But the funny thing is, it doesnt. The Reapers DONT win, they DONT harvest the galaxy BECAUSE nothing you see is really happening. It's all the Reapers injecting it into your head.

Unlike the other endings, where Shepard picks one of the 3 main choices. Where Shepard is making the choice with what HARBINGER(catalyst) said in mind including Destroy. When picking refuse Shepard isn't picturing the events that happen after choosing Refuse, shepard doesnt ACCEPT what the Catalyst is saying.

The Catalyst is saying "If you pick destroy, control or synthesis. You win".
Tell me, doesn't that seem funky rif? Harbinger is telling you that if you pick Destroy, you win ;0

But if you pick Refuse, he tells you, that you LOSE. And Shepard won't accept that, he won't accept HARBINGER. Telling him he will lose.

by Terramine Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:09 am

I'm just going to reiterate that for you all.

Catalyst says that if you pick Destroy, you win.
The Catalyst says that. But remember he's the bad guy?

He's saying picking Control and Synthesis is winning TOO. For the actual SAME CORE REASON as why he says Destroy wins. Ask yourself, why pre-ec... were they all the same ending?

ABC, 123...

by TurianRebel212 Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:30 am

Terramine wrote:Maybe I should just put this into perspective... what is going on here? A mind battle.

Everything is in context, in the context of the whole reaper war in context of everything. Synthesis is what? Coexistence with the Reapers. Control is Controlling the Reapers. Destroy is Destroying them.

But, it's all a mind game. Of course destroying the Reapers is the goal, RefuseShep completely agrees with that. But Refuse... what is it? Refusal of the Reapers and everything they stand for. Bam. That's how you win, hold the line.

Destroy is destruction of the Reapers through the acceptance of them and what they say.
Refuse is destruction of the Reapers through rejecting them and everything they say.

Except..... You know... The REALLY BIG WRENCH in your perspective.

Dat glorious N7 breath scene.

Nuff said.

Destroy.

Clubbed over the head of the player since the BEGINNING OF THE SERIES.

Synthesis is clearly Saren.

Control is clearly TIM

And Refuse, is very clearly and hilariously, BioWare meta Trolling it's audience.

Destroy is clearly Shepard and ALL allies of the series.

It is quite simple.

Do you have the will?

Do you have the toughness to choose the "path" that you know is right. RIGHT.

Did you pass the crucible???

Did you WAKE UP.

Hence..... High EMS destroy.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:34 am

by TurianRebel212 Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:35 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:smh

at me or Mr. Refuse Is legit guy????

by **DoomsdayDevice** Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:37 am

Not you, TR.

by pasza89 Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:16 am

TurianRebel212 wrote:
Synthesis is clearly Saren.

This is the last thing I'd expect to see on that forum. I wish there was a way to filter out your posts. You are one of the reasons a lot of people consider IT surreal.

You are clearly clueless.

by Rifneno Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:20 am

pasza89 wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:
Synthesis is clearly Saren.

This is the last thing I'd expect to see on that forum. I wish there was a way to filter out your posts. You are one of the reasons a lot of people consider IT surreal.

You are clearly clueless.

Any non-moderator can be filtered out. Add them to the "foes" list in your profile. Anyway, he's not wrong. Saren wasn't synthesis for most of the game, but after Virmire he went full retard.

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!"

That's what he says on the Citadel. It doesn't get much more synthesis than that.

by jojon2se Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:35 am

Hmm, I wasn't going to say anything further, but when there is a painfully familiar (...to someone who's followed the IT for some time) sort of relegating part of a discussion to a forum backwater (yes, I am exaggerating), I've got to put in something, just for the form of it, so here goes:

I'll just consider the stated absence of any "Game Over" medal, as an implicit "To be continued".

by **DoomsdayDevice** Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:07 am

There's nothing being relegated to a forum backwater whatsoever. This is the main forum, not Scary Door.

In the past, the heated refuse debate (particularly when certain individuals were involved) got so out of hand, that it seriously disrupted the main thread. In fact, it nearly killed the forums. At some point it was just one person posting one wall of text after the other. Not only that, but virtually every active thread on the forum got de-railed with the same debate. It basically became spam. We received numerous complaints from people that the atmosphere on the forums had become downright hostile, and many said they weren't posting any more, and even stopped checking the threads. In fact, at some point the chatroom was filled with people doing nothing but complaining about the situation for days.

At that point, we decided to move the entire debate to a single thread, so everybody knew where the discussion took place, and other threads wouldn't be clogged up with non-relevant arguing any more.

Moderation is all it is. You're welcome. :)

by Dwailing Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:13 am

Rifneno wrote:
pasza89 wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:
Synthesis is clearly Saren.

This is the last thing I'd expect to see on that forum. I wish there was a way to filter out your posts. You are one of the reasons a lot of people consider IT surreal.

You are clearly clueless.
Any non-moderator can be filtered out. Add them to the "foes" list in your profile. Anyway, he's not wrong. Saren wasn't synthesis for most of the game, but after Virmire he went full retard.

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!"

That's what he says on the Citadel. It doesn't get much more synthesis than that.

Saren went full Synthesis after, guess what, getting fully implanted/indoctrinated by Sovereign. If that isn't a dead giveaway that something is up with that option I don't know what is.

by TurianRebel212 Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:00 am

pasza89 wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:
Synthesis is clearly Saren.

This is the last thing I'd expect to see on that forum. I wish there was a way to filter out your posts. You are one of the reasons a lot of people consider IT surreal.

You are clearly clueless.

Derp. Derpy derp. Derp Duck. Hehehe. Derp duck.

Why don't you go play virmire in ME1 and the battle of the citadel and the final convos with Saren.

Saren, almost verbatim, speaks of synthesis. If you actually play the speeches of saren and then listen to the description of synthesis that the catalyst say's, it's eerily similar to what Saren was saying about the Reapers and their plans.

Again.

Control is a indoctrinated choice.

Synthesis is a indoctrinated choice

Refuse is a beaten and defeated choice.

Destroy.... Is literally the ONLY choice and "path" that Shepard survives and the Reapers DIE and it's literally the RIGHT choice.

BioWare clubbed the player over the head with this over and over again with the ending of ME3.

Only full herp derps like Derpy Duck would fail to see that.

GG.

by TurianRebel212 Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:09 am

Derpy Duck, I'm gonna link a vid that proves the "Saren wanted synthesis argument" and that it shows this idea being a core pillar of IT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln4uoG_W2dU

Again.... If you think Indoctrinated Reaper Agents like TIM, Kai Leng and Saren have great ideas....... Then... Yeah.

"CONTROL is the means of survival"- TIM

"We EVOLVE or We Die"- Kai Leng

Is SUBMISSION not preferable to extinction?"- Saren.

WE FIGHT OR WE DIE- Shepard.

Nuff said.

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