Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

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Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by lex0r on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:29 am

...Is a better home awaiting in the sky?

I just wanted to open a thread about this game for everyone who has played it.

So my post is more of a place holder, and my starting stimulus is the "Will the circle be unbroken.." line.

I'll have more later maybe. lol.


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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by aboutthosedays on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:33 am

yay

that ending was great, i'm still trying to get back to normal
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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Arashi08 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:39 am

I didn't know what to think of it at first, but once it sank in and all the clues came into place, I realized how brilliant it was. I can only hope I can create a story with an ending as good as that; something that makes you think.
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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by lex0r on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:46 am

The Lutece "interdimensional" twins are so funny..

And only after the ending I realized what that coin toss was about.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Arashi08 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:50 am

lex0r11 wrote:The Lutece "interdimensional" twins are so funny..

And only after the ending I realized what that coin toss was about.


I wish I could remember who voiced Rosalind's brother, but Jennifer Hale stole the show again :P
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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by lex0r on Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:13 am

What do you guys think the 3 DLC's will be?

I mean there are things missing from the game that were in gameplay demos. Deeper character arcs? Just more side missions? They will be costing about 10$ a piece, don't know if one can guess the content from that. They did a story DLC for Bioshock 2 that is supposed to be pretty good narrative wise, so there might be more..

I'm ruling out multiplayer because it seems odd to add it later on. Maybe co-op, but still.
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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Humakt on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:22 am

I wonder what the choice between the bird and the cage affected.

Bioshock games are storytelling premium, and this was the best of them.

Unique setting, stunning visuals, improved gameplay, attention to detail along with the great story and interesting characters makes this game a very strong candidate for GOTY.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Humakt on Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:10 pm

Fantastic song by Miracle of Sound:

Dream of the Sky

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:07 pm

Humakt83 wrote:I wonder what the choice between the bird and the cage affected.

Bioshock games are storytelling premium, and this was the best of them.

Unique setting, stunning visuals, improved gameplay, attention to detail along with the great story and interesting characters makes this game a very strong candidate for GOTY.

Nothing, every choice made in the game is at best visual (though I really like the effect of DeWitt running around with the bandaged hand should you choose not to draw on the ticket man).

But yeah fantastic game, truly amazing.

So how much of the ending revelations did people guess ahead of time? I correctly deducted that Elizabeth was Booker's child and that it was the Lucettes who set you on the task to rescue her. I did not see the Booker / Comstock connection coming (though it was obvious in hindsight).

Also knowing the ending and the Booker / Comstock connection gives a new perspective on many things, like the Hall of Heroes which makes the game very interesting to play through again.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Humakt on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:55 pm

I realized that Elizabeth is the Arch Angel Comstock saw in his enlightenment. Booker saw the New York on a fire in his dream, Elizabeth showed it to him.

The circle is unbroken.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by lex0r on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:12 am

"What is this DLC you speak of?"

http://youtu.be/3QF1I7tWUA0
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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Allynna on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:07 am

Wow, seriously I am blown away.

This is one of the best games i've ever played. The circle is broken in my opinion.

And finally i have a happy ending (kind of) Laughing

I also developed a crush on Booker DeWitt. Embarassed

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by MaximizedAction on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:55 am

Same here. Finished it last weekend, and I'm blown away!

A game with style AND substance!

And the ending, while being WTFy, my reaction to it was very different from ME3:
ME3's ending: initial confusion turned into frustration.
Bioshock Inf's ending: intial confusion turned into a constant smile on my face, whenever I try figuring out the ending.

My guess is that while both games didn't really have the traditional boss-battle that everyone was expecting, Bioshock didn't really drop me into the cold water as ME3 did (haha, pun wasn't intended but okay Grin ).
What's more: At no point in the game did it cross my mind to think that my inability to understand the ending could be somehow connected to a failure from the dev's side. It feels carefully thought through right 'out of the box', without any need for some Indoc Theory (although I'm sure one can develop one for Booker, too).

However, I still haven't really figured out a proper ending interpretation. I do find, though, that it indeed becomes quantum mechanicy towards the ending, which in my opinion, as odd as it sounds, helps make the story less foggy.

For example: to my shame, I haven't quite understood how Booker *is* Comstock, besides their relationship to Elizabeth.
(In my defense: there was so much WTF building up in the ending that, at some point, I just couldn't follow the story anymore)


It ain't me...

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:04 pm

MaximizedAction wrote:Same here. Finished it last weekend, and I'm blown away!

A game with style AND substance!

And the ending, while being WTFy, my reaction to it was very different from ME3:
ME3's ending: initial confusion turned into frustration.
Bioshock Inf's ending: intial confusion turned into a constant smile on my face, whenever I try figuring out the ending.

My guess is that while both games didn't really have the traditional boss-battle that everyone was expecting, Bioshock didn't really drop me into the cold water as ME3 did (haha, pun wasn't intended but okay Grin ).
What's more: At no point in the game did it cross my mind to think that my inability to understand the ending could be somehow connected to a failure from the dev's side. It feels carefully thought through right 'out of the box', without any need for some Indoc Theory (although I'm sure one can develop one for this Booker, too).

However, I still haven't really figured out a proper ending interpretation. I do find, though, that it indeed becomes quantum mechanicy towards the ending, which in my opinion, as odd as it sounds, helps make the story less foggy.

For example: to my shame, I haven't quite understood how Booker *is* Comstock, besides their relationship to Elizabeth.
(In my defense: there was so much WTF building up in the ending that, at some point, I just couldn't follow the story anymore)

Booker being Comstock relates to the entire multiple universes of "constants and variables." The variable in the Booker / Comstock case is the baptism following Wounded Knee.

One Booker from one universe, the one we play, rejects the baptism and goes on to become the father of Anna.

Another Booker in another universe accepts the baptism and takes on the name of Comstock to represent his new life. He goes on to found Columbia and mess around with tears.

What I am not sure about is if the multiple universes are always there or if each new variable in a sense creates a new universe. In essence when another choice could have been made, another universe exists where that choice was made. Like tree starting at the trunk and dividing into many branches.

Though fun fact i noticed on my second play through. The priest who baptizes Booker upon his arrival at Columbia is the one from Wounded Knee, just blind now so he does not recognize Booker. In general a second play through once you know the end is extremely fun as you really start to recognize all the symbolism littering the games. Especially the Hall of Heroes becomes such a different place with the knowledge you have.


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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by MaximizedAction on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:09 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Booker being Comstock relates to the entire multiple universes of "constants and variables." The variable in the Booker / Comstock case is the baptism following Little Big Horn.

One Booker from one universe, the one we play, rejects the baptism and goes on to become the father of Anna.

Another Booker in another universe accepts the baptism and takes on the name of Comstock to represent his new life. He goes on to found Columbia and mess around with tears.


What I am not sure about is if the multiple universes are always there or if each new variable in a sense creates a new universe. In essence when another choice could have been made, another universe exists where that choice was made. Like tree starting at the trunk and dividing into many branches.

Though fun fact i noticed on my second play through. The priest who baptizes Booker upon his arrival at Columbia is the one from Little Big Horn, just blind now so he does not recognize Booker. In general a second play through once you know the end is extremely fun as you really start to recognize all the symbolism littering the games. Especially the Hall of Heroes becomes such a different place with the knowledge you have.

AH! So that explains it! But I don't remember either Elizabeth or Booker saying that that's the point where Comstock is sort of created...
But this does explain Comstock's banter about sin during the last level, when you try to board his flagship.

And well done noticing that it's the both priests look the same! w00t

Thanks for helping out!

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:26 pm

MaximizedAction wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
Booker being Comstock relates to the entire multiple universes of "constants and variables." The variable in the Booker / Comstock case is the baptism following Wounded Knee.

One Booker from one universe, the one we play, rejects the baptism and goes on to become the father of Anna.

Another Booker in another universe accepts the baptism and takes on the name of Comstock to represent his new life. He goes on to found Columbia and mess around with tears.


What I am not sure about is if the multiple universes are always there or if each new variable in a sense creates a new universe. In essence when another choice could have been made, another universe exists where that choice was made. Like tree starting at the trunk and dividing into many branches.

Though fun fact i noticed on my second play through. The priest who baptizes Booker upon his arrival at Columbia is the one from Wounded Knee, just blind now so he does not recognize Booker. In general a second play through once you know the end is extremely fun as you really start to recognize all the symbolism littering the games. Especially the Hall of Heroes becomes such a different place with the knowledge you have.

AH! So that explains it! But I don't remember either Elizabeth or Booker saying that that's the point where Comstock is sort of created...
But this does explain Comstock's banter about sin during the last level, when you try to board his flagship.

And well done noticing that it's the both priests look the same! w00t

Thanks for helping out!

They don't say it outright, but remember what Booker says, that he will kill Comstock in the crib. Elizabeth then takes him to the place of the baptism. In short the baptism is Comstock's crib, when one Booker threw away his old life and was reborn as Comstock.

Also another thing I noticed in this play through is a voxophone recording from Comstock where he speaks about how he was accused of being sympathetic to the Indians, how he had "a few squaws in his own tent." To prove he was not Comstock says he burned down several wigwams with the women and children inside.

This most likely happened around the battle of Wounded Knee which would mean this particular event is probably part of the sins that haunt Booker. It also goes well with Slate's talk of Booker brutality during the battle.

Edit: Also it was Wounded Knee, not Little Big Horn, no idea why I mix those two up when talking about the game.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by MaximizedAction on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:36 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
*snip*
They don't say it outright, but remember what Booker says, that he will kill Comstock in the crib. Elizabeth then takes him to the place of the baptism. In short the baptism is Comstock's crib, when one Booker threw away his old life and was reborn as Comstock.
*snip*

That certainly makes sense!

And gotta love the symbolism, and also some sort of foreshadowing, during the final battle: you fight the Vox Populi who are trying to destroy Comstock's flagship.

Sad thing you didn't get to go to Paris :(

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Allynna on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:37 pm

Ok, I will share my theory, maybe it can help.

So lets start from the beginning.

*MAJOR ENDING SPOILERS*

We know that when Booker DeWitt was very young (maybe 17-18 tops) was in the US military and he fought in that battle of Wounded Knee. After that battle he felt very guilty and attended a baptism at the river thinking that this can wash away the guilt and the things he have done can be forgiven. But in the last moment he rejects everything and runs away (as we can see that when Elizabeth take him there).
After that he marries a girl, which dies giving birth to Anna. So after all these events Booker gives himself to alchohol, gambling and shit.

In an alternate reality Booker accepts the baptism. When he is "reborn" he changes his name and becomes a different person - the fanatic, racist asshole - Comstock. He wants to create this city - Columbia to preach his BS there and eventually destroy NY. So he finds the female Lutece - she helps him to build it.

I am not sure about the next events with fem Lutece, but she somehow manages to find a way to open tears. This is how she finds herself as a man in different reality, maybe Bookers reality. So they are not twins, they are the same person.
After many experiments with the tears Comstock becomes infertile and he cant have children, so he have to find a version of himself who have a baby, so his "kingdom" would have a heir.

This is how Comstock gets Anna/Elizabeth. He finds Booker and promise to wipe away his debts in exchange of the baby. Booker give her to him and regret it for the next 20 years.

The Luteces overcomed by guild decide to fix everything and give a chance to Booker to find and get Anna back, but when they open the tear in his house and when he steps through it his brain gets messed up and he starts to make up new memories - that they hired him to find grown Elizabeth in exchange of his debts.

So in the end the only way to prevent all this is to kill Comstock before he is born/created, meaning before Booker decides to take or not the baptism.
When Elizabeth drown him at that point of his life Comstock is never created, Columbia is never created, he never comes to take Anna/Elizabeth and that leaves us with only one timeline - the one where Booker and Anna are together.

Many ppl think that Booker is dead for good, but this is not true. Elizabeth is not killing him as a baby or something, she only kills the possibility of him becoming Comstock.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:48 pm

Allynna wrote:Ok, I will share my theory, maybe it can help.

So lets start from the beginning.

*MAJOR ENDING SPOILERS*

We know that when Booker DeWitt was very young (maybe 17-18 tops) was in the US military and he fought in that battle of Wounded Knee. After that battle he felt very guilty and attended a baptism at the river thinking that this can wash away the guilt and the things he have done can be forgiven. But in the last moment he rejects everything and runs away (as we can see that when Elizabeth take him there).
After that he marries a girl, which dies giving birth to Anna. So after all these events Booker gives himself to alchohol, gambling and shit.

In an alternate reality Booker accepts the baptism. When he is "reborn" he changes his name and becomes a different person - the fanatic, racist asshole - Comstock. He wants to create this city - Columbia to preach his BS there and eventually destroy NY. So he finds the female Lutece - she helps him to build it.

I am not sure about the next events with fem Lutece, but she somehow manages to find a way to open tears. This is how she finds herself as a man in different reality, maybe Bookers reality. So they are not twins, they are the same person.
After many experiments with the tears Comstock becomes infertile and he cant have children, so he have to find a version of himself who have a baby, so his "kingdom" would have a heir.

This is how Comstock gets Anna/Elizabeth. He finds Booker and promise to wipe away his debts in exchange of the baby. Booker give her to him and regret it for the next 20 years.

The Luteces overcomed by guild decide to fix everything and give a chance to Booker to find and get Anna back, but when they open the tear in his house and when he steps through it his brain gets messed up and he starts to make up new memories - that they hired him to find grown Elizabeth in exchange of his debts.

So in the end the only way to prevent all this is to kill Comstock before he is born/created, meaning before Booker decides to take or not the baptism.
When Elizabeth drown him at that point of his life Comstock is never created, Columbia is never created, he never comes to take Anna/Elizabeth and that leaves us with only one timeline - the one where Booker and Anna are together.

Many ppl think that Booker is dead for good, but this is not true. Elizabeth is not killing him as a baby or something, she only kills the possibility of him becoming Comstock.

Agree with most, except I don't think 20 years passed between Booker handing over Anna and him going to rescue her. I think it was earlier, possibly just months or weeks after he actually handed over Anna. This is mostly on the idea that his mind latches on to the "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt" when he is dragged into Comstock's universe. That thought, though important, would have been 20 years old by that point making it unlikely to be the first thing on his mind.

Also the Luteces are "killed" several years before Booker arrives at Columbia, I think Elizabeth says seven years, and from the sounds of some of the Lutece voxophones the male Lutece started having second thoughts rather quickly about what they did.

But most importantly we know the Tears can operate across time. This is shown both in game by the fact that Elizabeth can bring Booker forward in time and also back to the baptism. It would also make sense to bring a Booker who was in relatively good physical condition instead of a 20 years older Booker who if he truly drank and sat around in sadness for the majority of that time would likely not be fit for such an action.


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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:48 pm

MaximizedAction wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
*snip*
They don't say it outright, but remember what Booker says, that he will kill Comstock in the crib. Elizabeth then takes him to the place of the baptism. In short the baptism is Comstock's crib, when one Booker threw away his old life and was reborn as Comstock.
*snip*

That certainly makes sense!

And gotta love the symbolism, and also some sort of foreshadowing, during the final battle: you fight the Vox Populi who are trying to destroy Comstock's flagship.

Sad thing you didn't get to go to Paris :(

Yeah, I really wanted to help her reach Paris.

Also another Easter Egg / early hint regarding the Luteces. After arriving in Columbia you receive a telegram from the Luteces. If you walk to the left after that there is one of those binocular like things offering a nice view of Columbia. Look down however and you can see the Luteces juggling on a walkway right below you. Exit the binoculars and they disappear however and they don't reappear even if you enter the binoculars again.

First hint they are not what they seem for those who keep an eye out, even if you don't know their name yet.


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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Allynna on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 pm

Well i dont know. Booker is 37 years old when he finds her and they kill Comstock.
Elizabeth also said that he "shared this room with his regret for 20 years". But there is a theory that this is his 123rd attempt to rescue her.
Quote from wiki

The code for entering Columbia is 1-2-2, possibly signifying that he has done this 122 times before. There are also 122 tally marks on the Luteces' chalkboard before the coin flip, and they add another one after the coin flip has been performed.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Allynna wrote:Well i dont know. Booker is 37 years old when he finds her and they kill Comstock.
Elizabeth also said that he "shared this room with his regret for 20 years". But there is a theory that this is his 123rd attempt to rescue her.
Quote from wiki

The code for entering Columbia is 1-2-2, possibly signifying that he has done this 122 times before. There are also 122 tally marks on the Luteces' chalkboard before the coin flip, and they add another one after the coin flip has been performed.

I did not know that, interesting.

Also now that I think about it his work with the Pinkertons probably came after his time in the military considering how young he probably was. That would explain him staying in shape and would have added to his existing guilt.

That would probably also put Booker and Comstock at roughly the same age. Comstocks altered appearance would then be due to the tears (Luttece mentions advanced aging was one other side effect).

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by MaximizedAction on Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:46 pm

Allynna wrote:

Many ppl think that Booker is dead for good, but this is not true. Elizabeth is not killing him as a baby or something, she only kills the possibility of him becoming Comstock.

I'm also having trouble thinking that he's dead *for good*, considering how he wasn't really dead the time he was drowned by the priest at the beginning of the game.

The only difference at the end was: we saw the different versions of Elizabeth vanishing one after another, indicating that those realities have been reset/removed.

And what's more: what I really thought noticible was the way Booker dies when his health turns low:
he doesn't.
What's more: when Elizabeth opens the tear to get to a living Chen Lin, they find the troops Booker shot in an undead state. While they weren't entirely alive either, it was still nothing final.

Whatever happened to Booker when he was drowned, there is evidence in the game to suggest he's not dead for good. But rather maybe in something like a Purgatory. Which is also what's being speculated about where and when the DLC could be set.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by Allynna on Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:54 pm

Hm, i havent heard of this purgatory theory.

For me the scene after the credits is quite clear - he wakes up in his room the date he sold Anna to Comstock (October 8th, 1893), but Comstock is dead, so i think that Anna is in her crib.
And he asks "Anna? Anna?! Is that you?". That seems strange for me if he doesnt remember anything so i think he does. And I'll headcanon that he changes after all and he will be a good father.

What saddens me is that when Elizabeth kills Comstock, she also "kills herself". I mean maybe she will have a different personality with Booker.

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

Post by MaximizedAction on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:05 pm

Allynna wrote:Hm, i havent heard of this purgatory theory.

For me the scene after the credits is quite clear - he wakes up in his room the date he sold Anna to Comstock (October 8th, 1893), but Comstock is dead, so i think that Anna is in her crib.
And he asks "Anna? Anna?! Is that you?". That seems strange for me if he doesnt remember anything so i think he does. And I'll headcanon that he changes after all and he will be a good father.

What saddens me is that when Elizabeth kills Comstock, she also "kills herself". I mean maybe she will have a different personality with Booker.

Agree with everything!

What I find also funny: the beard-Comstock seems to have been killed not by Booker smashing his head against the stone, but by drowning him.
Foreshadowing of the ending or representing the possibility that this Comstock, too might not be dead for good?

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Re: Bioshock Infinite: Will the circle be unbroken..? *** MAJOR SPOILERS ***

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