Evil Gods?

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:03 am

Selim Bradley wrote:I never said it would be easy for them, but that in comparison to creating a universe it would be easy. And true, they may not see a need to flashforge a defense because they've bwcome too arrogant to think they need it or they have an ability similar to The Ultimate Shield I mentioned (though Greed was able to create his instantaneously, but whatever).

I don't think Religion or Anti-Religion was an intended theme. People just see that in everything. You see it all the time in complaints about movies, shows, like "Fernfully the Last Rainforest supports Wicanism" "2012 is agaimst religion because it destroys religious symbols in the movie", etc. The themes Bioware were actually going for were the themes they said, like "strength through diversity".
Oh come on though Shepard is a saint(unless Renegade), he came back to life. I mean, he literally died. There was no "Oh well, maybe he was alive the whole time". He was slaughtered, annihilated, he was DEAD.

They were originally going to have him discuss with Ashley, that there was no afterlife. They removed it sure, but it was likely because they knew that they needed to make it very subtle in order to not piss anyone off. Because the people smart enough to figure it out, would not get offended since they are more mature/intelligent than that.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:09 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:I never said it would be easy for them, but that in comparison to creating a universe it would be easy. And true, they may not see a need to flashforge a defense because they've bwcome too arrogant to think they need it or they have an ability similar to The Ultimate Shield I mentioned (though Greed was able to create his instantaneously, but whatever).

I don't think Religion or Anti-Religion was an intended theme. People just see that in everything. You see it all the time in complaints about movies, shows, like "Fernfully the Last Rainforest supports Wicanism" "2012 is agaimst religion because it destroys religious symbols in the movie", etc. The themes Bioware were actually going for were the themes they said, like "strength through diversity".
Oh come on though Shepard is a saint(unless Renegade), he came back to life. I mean, he literally died. There was no "Oh well, maybe he was alive the whole time". He was slaughtered, annihilated, he was DEAD.

They were originally going to have him discuss with Ashley, that there was no afterlife. They removed it sure, but it was likely because they knew that they needed to make it very subtle in order to not piss anyone off. Because the people smart enough to figure it out, would not get offended since they are more mature/intelligent than that.
There's a lot of that in fiction, though. Gandalf is an example of someone who died beyond a shadow of a doubt yet came back. Doesn't mean he is representing Jesus. I seriously think the only reason they killed Shepard is to seperate them completely from the Alliance. And as for stuff taken out, it's no longer canon so it holds no weight for any argument.

btw way to make it seem like only stupid people believe in an afterlife. Angry
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:26 am

Selim Bradley wrote:There's a lot of that in fiction, though. Gandalf is an example of someone who died beyond a shadow of a doubt yet came back. Doesn't mean he is representing Jesus. I seriously think the only reason they killed Shepard is to seperate them completely from the Alliance. And as for stuff taken out, it's no longer canon so it holds no weight for any argument.

btw way to make it seem like only stupid people believe in an afterlife. Angry
But Gandalf was not the perfect avatar of Humanity either, while Shepard is... Shepard dying also did nothing in that regard, he just sided with Cerberus and that was it. They even still punish him for siding with Cerberus. In fact many critics are right when they say that, Shepard dying was completely unnecessary and out of the blue... unless it serves a deeper purpose. Part of it was to invoke that doubt of reality, standing on your own grave, etc.

But there was clearly an allegory here, because Shepard is the perfect example of Humanity and thus him coming back to life is way different than just any old human coming back to life. It's like Humanities' hope and will, and in turn the Galaxies', was revived.

"btw way to make it seem like only stupid people believe in an afterlife. Angry"

No, only stupid people would be pissed if a video game told them their beliefs were wrong, like "oh my god no other viewpoints can be expressed". Smart people, would not get offended over a video game.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:30 am

IronicParticle wrote:But Gandalf was not the perfect avatar of Humanity either, while Shepard is... Shepard dying also did nothing in that regard, he just sided with Cerberus and that was it. They even still punish him for siding with Cerberus. In fact many critics are right when they say that, Shepard dying was completely unnecessary and out of the blue... unless it serves a deeper purpose. Part of it was to invoke that doubt of reality, standing on your own grave, etc.

But there was clearly an allegory here, because Shepard is the perfect example of Humanity and thus him coming back to life is way different than just any old human coming back to life. It's like Humanities' hope and will, and in turn the Galaxies', was revived.

"btw way to make it seem like only stupid people believe in an afterlife. Angry"

No, only stupid people would be pissed if a video game told them their beliefs were wrong, like "oh my god no other viewpoints can be expressed". Smart people, would not get offended over a video game.
Again, Shepard is just an ordinary human, which is what makes them so extraordinary. As for completly seperating them from the Alliance, I mean that they would stop searching and everyone would move on. If it happened as a scenario where Shepard would most likely live, then that wouldn't've happened. As for the last bit, say it like that next time. Your wording earlier did not express that clearly.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:39 am

Selim Bradley wrote: Again, Shepard is just an ordinary human, which is what makes them so extraordinary. As for completly seperating them from the Alliance, I mean that they would stop searching and everyone would move on. If it happened as a scenario where Shepard would most likely live, then that wouldn't've happened. As for the last bit, say it like that next time. Your wording earlier did not express that clearly.
The point is he is an anomaly. Yes all Humans have the ability to become Shepard, but the point is they aren't. Any human could've been a "Jesus", that's kinda the point.

Also Shepard starts believing in god towards the end more and more as he gets more and more INDOCTRINATED. In real life, indoctrination is a thing and religion does it all the time. The vast majority of believers, are indoctrinated as children or when in a state of mind that lacks critical thinking like when a family member dies, or a person is suffering, etc. The fact that the Reapers, indoctrinate you to worship them? Yeah, nothing to be seen in that Whistling

"As for the last bit, say it like that next time."

I did:
"Because the people smart enough to figure it out, would not get offended since they are more mature/intelligent than that."

This is the same as "Smart people, would not get offended over a video game.".

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:44 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote: Again, Shepard is just an ordinary human, which is what makes them so extraordinary. As for completly seperating them from the Alliance, I mean that they would stop searching and everyone would move on. If it happened as a scenario where Shepard would most likely live, then that wouldn't've happened. As for the last bit, say it like that next time. Your wording earlier did not express that clearly.
Again, the point is he is an anomaly. Yes all Humans have the ability to become Shepard, but the point is they aren't. Any human could've been a "Jesus", that's kinda the point.

Also Shepard starts believing in god towards the end more and more as he gets more and more INDOCTRINATED. In real life, indoctrination is a thing and religion does it all the time. The vast majority of believers, are indoctrinated as children or when in a state of mind that lacks critical thinking like when a family member dies, or a person is suffering, etc.

The fact that the Reapers, indoctrinate you to worship them? Yeah, nothing to be seen in that Whistling

"As for the last bit, say it like that next time.

I did:
"Because the people smart enough to figure it out, would not get offended since they are more mature/intelligent than that."

This is the same as "Smart people, would not get offended over a video game.".
No, Shepard doesn't. They never express any personal belief except in ME1 when talking about it with Ashley, and that's up to the player. As for the last part, using "it" at the end of a paragraph talking about afterlife tends to make people think that's what you're referring to rather than a new concept.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:05 am

Selim Bradley wrote:No, Shepard doesn't. They never express any personal belief except in ME1 when talking about it with Ashley, and that's up to the player. As for the last part, using "it" at the end of a paragraph talking about afterlife tends to make people think that's what you're referring to rather than a new concept.
Actually, I always select for Shepard to be an Atheist who lets people believe what they believe in ME1. And yet at the ending, he/she says that if he/she is up in that bar... well you get the idea. Atheists don't believe in that bar, he/she should be expressing his/her secular viewpoint there.

And the problem with the idea that it's genuine conversion, is that if you look at Jack in the Citadel DLC.. as someone mentioned, she said a creepy comment on what she thought was a god.

I mean we know Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, and part of that is the Reapers making you worship them. Both Saren and TIM, the main figureheads of Control and Synthesis worshiped the Reapers. Regardless of what they convince you of, they always get you to worship them as gods.

Edit:"As for the last part, using "it" at the end of a paragraph talking about afterlife tends to make people think that's what you're referring to rather than a new concept"

well honestly i made it as clear as possible, in fact I didn't do a whole lot to clarify and yet you got it the second time. That Bioware, removed that scene so the people who are easily offended would not get offended because they'd never realize the theme. Any person, whether they believe in an afterlife or don't, would not be offended because they'd be intelligent enough to find out the theme in the first place. Basically, the "it" was referring to the theme. Not to people's beliefs.


Last edited by IronicParticle on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:10 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:No, Shepard doesn't. They never express any personal belief except in ME1 when talking about it with Ashley, and that's up to the player. As for the last part, using "it" at the end of a paragraph talking about afterlife tends to make people think that's what you're referring to rather than a new concept.
Actually, I always select for Shepard to be an Atheist who lets people believe what they believe in ME1. And yet at the ending, he/she says that if he/she is up in that bar... well you get the idea. Atheists don't believe in that bar, he/she should be expressing his/her secular viewpoint there.

And the problem with the idea that it's genuine conversion, is that if you look at Jack in the Citadel DLC.. as someone mentioned, she said a creepy comment on what she thought was a god.

I mean we know Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, and part of that is the Reapers making you worship them. Both Saren and TIM, the main figureheads of Control and Synthesis worshiped the Reapers. Regardless of what they convince you of, they always get you to worship them as gods.
Well, you're not going to tell your buddy before the final fight "Oh, yeah. Your personal belief system is wrong." No, you'll say something to put their mind at ease, even if you don't believe it. And people in human history have been indoctrinated to the point where they worshipped people as if they were gods. Does that make them one? No.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Fur28 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:11 am

IronicParticle wrote:Actually, I always select for Shepard to be an Atheist who lets people believe what they believe in ME1. And yet at the ending, he/she says that if he/she is up in that bar... well you get the idea. Atheists don't believe in that bar, he/she should be expressing his/her secular viewpoint there.
Of course shepard would say he´ll meet Garrus at the bar, they´re buddies who could very well die in a few minutes.
No one would take the time to say "nah, garrus there is nothing after death, welp better not get hit by reaper beams eh?"

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:24 am

Selim Bradley wrote: Well, you're not going to tell your buddy before the final fight "Oh, yeah. Your personal belief system is wrong." No, you'll say something to put their mind at ease, even if you don't believe it. And people in human history have been indoctrinated to the point where they worshipped people as if they were gods. Does that make them one? No.
No, I don't think that's how it works. Reflecting my viewpoint does not tell you that your view point is wrong, just that I think differently.

I mean every Atheist understands the sentiment Garrus was going for. But why can't the Atheist say that they had a good run and that's what is valuable to them? It makes vastly more sense, I always felt sharing the sentiment was because you were projecting what you've learned in life regarding the whole issue of dying. Garrus says the bar thing, because that's his answer to the problem of death. And I say that Garrus was awesome enough, because that's my answer to the problem of death.

Basically the idea that Shepard is just relaying how Garrus feels, is a stereotype that Atheists don't have their own sentiments that address the death issue.

"Does that make them one? No."

No hence why I retracted the idea that Mass Effect was Anti-Religion. I specifically said it is against the corruption of religion, and against people twisting the idea of god into this evil thing. Just like you said, humans are worshiped as gods. Some people also worship a god because of power, not because of morality. You see this a lot, when a lot of theists try to defend their position by saying god is above morality, might makes right, etc.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:40 am

IronicParticle wrote:Basically the idea that Shepard is just relaying how Garrus feels, is a stereotype that Atheists don't have their own sentiments that address the death issue.
That's not stereotyping that at all. It shows Shepard is willing to say whatever will help those under their command be at ease, like any good leader.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:53 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:Basically the idea that Shepard is just relaying how Garrus feels, is a stereotype that Atheists don't have their own sentiments that address the death issue.
That's not stereotyping that at all. It shows Shepard is willing to say whatever will help those under their command be at ease, like any good leader.
But again, relaying his OWN viewpoint does that too.

And again, that's why Garrus brought his viewpoint up, to also ease Shepard. The whole point is that you project what you have learned, in regards to the death problem. If it was the end of the world, or at least both me and a religious person are dying. Again, I'd hope they'd get the sentiment behind my viewpoint just as I get the sentiment behind their viewpoint.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:21 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:Basically the idea that Shepard is just relaying how Garrus feels, is a stereotype that Atheists don't have their own sentiments that address the death issue.
That's not stereotyping that at all. It shows Shepard is willing to say whatever will help those under their command be at ease, like any good leader.
But again, relaying his OWN viewpoint does that too.

And again, that's why Garrus brought his viewpoint up, to also ease Shepard. The whole point is that you project what you have learned, in regards to the death problem. If it was the end of the world, or at least both me and a religious person are dying. Again, I'd hope they'd get the sentiment behind my viewpoint just as I get the sentiment behind their viewpoint.
We're getting into personal preferences. A "I wanted it one way, you wanted it another, but the creators decided to do it the way I liked" thing.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:38 am

Selim Bradley wrote: We're getting into personal preferences. A "I wanted it one way, you wanted it another, but the creators decided to do it the way I liked" thing.
I'm saying an Atheist would clearly not say that. That, Shepard must be starting to believe it himself.

No Atheist I know of actually does that, except for when children are involved who are literally incapable of getting the sentiment behind the Atheist's viewpoint. Well, unless they are Cynical in personality. But they'd understand it for the wrong reasons. If a child was dying, they'd comfort them with the whole "bar" sentiment. If it's an adult? They'd project their own viewpoint, that's what Garrus did therefor that's what Shepard is doing.

He's not just a parrot.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:36 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote: We're getting into personal preferences. A "I wanted it one way, you wanted it another, but the creators decided to do it the way I liked" thing.
I'm saying an Atheist would clearly not say that. That, Shepard must be starting to believe it himself.

No Atheist I know of actually does that, except for when children are involved who are literally incapable of getting the sentiment behind the Atheist's viewpoint. Well, unless they are Cynical in personality. But they'd understand it for the wrong reasons. If a child was dying, they'd comfort them with the whole "bar" sentiment. If it's an adult? They'd project their own viewpoint, that's what Garrus did therefor that's what Shepard is doing.

He's not just a parrot.
Well, some decisions are Shepards, not ours. Example, I would never join Cerberus, but Shepard does anyway. So perhaps Shepard, even as an Atheist, would say that.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:18 am

Selim Bradley wrote:Well, some decisions are Shepards, not ours. Example, I would never join Cerberus, but Shepard does anyway. So perhaps Shepard, even as an Atheist, would say that.
I'm just saying, it seems doubtful for the fact that we know Shepard is suffering from indoctrination. At some point, he's going to have to start swaying towards the Reapers' side and looking UP to them instead of down.

And where he's at, it's beyond expected.

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