Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by epyonx3 Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:49 pm

MaximizedAction wrote:
epyonx3 wrote:This is still going on? Wow, it really is that serious hehe. I wonder if anyone from the Bioware forum is still here.

Ohai, haven't seen you in a while.

Yeah after they shut down the thread I kinda stopped posting about. Still get comments on my youtube video though...

by Raistlin Majere Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:56 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Of course, having a bigger Hammer to back you up after an indoctrination spasm only really works if you're on the ground in London.

It still strikes me as ludicrous that no one in-game noticed that the Reapers seemingly made the only way up onto the Citadel be a conveniently placed teleportation beam in a killzone near where the resistance had been deliberately drawn to over the course of the game. If the Reapers actually thought there was a threat, they'd've kept the Citadel on full lockdown with no way in. Also, teleportation beams are a new thing. Mass relays don't have to actually point at each other AFAIK let alone shine a beam in each other's direction. No one questions these things. The Reapers showed up and everyone's IQ dropped. Even Mordin's. Especially Mordin's.

How did they even get control of the Citadel? Without the Keepers it should be so easy for the Citadel Defense Force to close the damn thing and laugh as the Reapers try to open their own damn clam. It was always what I assumed the Ceberus coup was supposed to solve, taking the Citadel back for the Reapers.

Off course it might have been Indoctrinated agents or something preventing it from beeing closed in time, but this is never elaborated upon.

by Terramine Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:17 am

Rifneno wrote:Fuckit. My carpal tunnel is bad enough without spending 5 paragraphs explaining obvious things to a retard. It's not my job. His mother's job was not to drink gasoline while pregnant and she didn't do that, why should I try to fix her mistakes? *puts IP on ignore, enjoys silence*

Your attitude is ridiculous. First off, even if there is something I'm not getting it's simply because I'm not on the upkeep? You seriously act like IT was so obvious and laid out that you just notice everything without missing anything. However IT started as Byne randomly mentioning the idea and from there is was a gradual VERY SLOW analysis filled with trillions of replays by multiple players. So "it's obvious" isn't good enough regardless.

But not to mention, there is apparently 5 paraphraphs worth of explanation but instead of explaining from the beginning you literally just responded with a few sentences dissing me and my mother? Even before that, it was just you condemning me as stupid. This is what I'm talking about. You've gotten so rabid that by this point you just instacondemn everyone and don't actually ever explain anything anymore. If someone new comes along, from their perspective you will definitely be utterly irrational to them and rightfully so.

And now your response is literally to just block me out. You've really fallen Rif. Grown weak as hell man.

by Terramine Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:19 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:Of course, having a bigger Hammer to back you up after an indoctrination spasm only really works if you're on the ground in London.

It still strikes me as ludicrous that no one in-game noticed that the Reapers seemingly made the only way up onto the Citadel be a conveniently placed teleportation beam in a killzone near where the resistance had been deliberately drawn to over the course of the game. If the Reapers actually thought there was a threat, they'd've kept the Citadel on full lockdown with no way in. Also, teleportation beams are a new thing. Mass relays don't have to actually point at each other AFAIK let alone shine a beam in each other's direction. No one questions these things. The Reapers showed up and everyone's IQ dropped. Even Mordin's. Especially Mordin's.
How did they even get control of the Citadel? Without the Keepers it should be so easy for the Citadel Defense Force to close the damn thing and laugh as the Reapers try to open their own damn clam. It was always what I assumed the Ceberus coup was supposed to solve, taking the Citadel back for the Reapers.

Off course it might have been Indoctrinated agents or something preventing it from beeing closed in time, but this is never elaborated upon.

The Cerberus Coup. They literally said some of them ran off into the keeper tunnels. That tells me they stayed on the citadel.

by MaximizedAction Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:20 am

epyonx3 wrote:

Yeah after they shut down the thread I kinda stopped posting about. Still get comments on my youtube video though...

You should drop by the chat sometime. Unlike here, byne actually shows up there. ^^

by Raistlin Majere Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:08 pm

Terramine wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:Of course, having a bigger Hammer to back you up after an indoctrination spasm only really works if you're on the ground in London.

It still strikes me as ludicrous that no one in-game noticed that the Reapers seemingly made the only way up onto the Citadel be a conveniently placed teleportation beam in a killzone near where the resistance had been deliberately drawn to over the course of the game. If the Reapers actually thought there was a threat, they'd've kept the Citadel on full lockdown with no way in. Also, teleportation beams are a new thing. Mass relays don't have to actually point at each other AFAIK let alone shine a beam in each other's direction. No one questions these things. The Reapers showed up and everyone's IQ dropped. Even Mordin's. Especially Mordin's.
How did they even get control of the Citadel? Without the Keepers it should be so easy for the Citadel Defense Force to close the damn thing and laugh as the Reapers try to open their own damn clam. It was always what I assumed the Ceberus coup was supposed to solve, taking the Citadel back for the Reapers.

Off course it might have been Indoctrinated agents or something preventing it from beeing closed in time, but this is never elaborated upon.
The Cerberus Coup. They literally said some of them ran off into the keeper tunnels. That tells me they stayed on the citadel.

Some of them did does not equate a fighting force that can take over the Citadel before anyone reacts after it has beefed up its defenses after the last time something like that almost happened.

And it still leaves the glaring problem of it not being addressed or brought up in any capacity. People go like "What, the Reapers have the Citadel at Earth" and then just ignore any of the glaring "how the fuck did they do that?"

by dorktainian Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:18 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Terramine wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:Of course, having a bigger Hammer to back you up after an indoctrination spasm only really works if you're on the ground in London.

It still strikes me as ludicrous that no one in-game noticed that the Reapers seemingly made the only way up onto the Citadel be a conveniently placed teleportation beam in a killzone near where the resistance had been deliberately drawn to over the course of the game. If the Reapers actually thought there was a threat, they'd've kept the Citadel on full lockdown with no way in. Also, teleportation beams are a new thing. Mass relays don't have to actually point at each other AFAIK let alone shine a beam in each other's direction. No one questions these things. The Reapers showed up and everyone's IQ dropped. Even Mordin's. Especially Mordin's.
How did they even get control of the Citadel? Without the Keepers it should be so easy for the Citadel Defense Force to close the damn thing and laugh as the Reapers try to open their own damn clam. It was always what I assumed the Ceberus coup was supposed to solve, taking the Citadel back for the Reapers.

Off course it might have been Indoctrinated agents or something preventing it from beeing closed in time, but this is never elaborated upon.
The Cerberus Coup. They literally said some of them ran off into the keeper tunnels. That tells me they stayed on the citadel.

Some of them did does not equate a fighting force that can take over the Citadel before anyone reacts after it has beefed up its defenses after the last time something like that almost happened.

And it still leaves the glaring problem of it not being addressed or brought up in any capacity. People go like "What, the Reapers have the Citadel at Earth" and then just ignore any of the glaring "how the fuck did they do that?"

or why they would do it. The reapers could protect it where it was. why move it at all?

by Rifneno Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:19 pm

smash016 wrote:@Rif

Didn't say I didn't understand what Effective Military Strength means.

Should've known this ain't the place for what-if scenarios though.

Have to admit Mac's retweets give me some hope. That this Ark Theory is just bullshit. Even though what little we know thus far does point in that direction.

The question wasn't "what is EMS?" but "why would EMS mean the difference between Shepard waking up and not?"

Raistlin Majere wrote:How did they even get control of the Citadel? Without the Keepers it should be so easy for the Citadel Defense Force to close the damn thing and laugh as the Reapers try to open their own damn clam.

I love everything about this sentence.

It was always what I assumed the Ceberus coup was supposed to solve, taking the Citadel back for the Reapers.

Off course it might have been Indoctrinated agents or something preventing it from beeing closed in time, but this is never elaborated upon.

The bigger problem is that there's no way they could've moved the Citadel to Earth that quickly. The Citadel won't fit through a mass relay. It simply won't. Most mass effect fields are orb-shaped and can be made wider if need be (assuming there's enough power). Mass relays work by two relays focusing a beam of mass effect at each other to "create a corridor of near-zero mass." The size of the beam can't be increased unless you increase the size of the relays themselves. The Citadel is far too big to fit through a mass relay's corridor.

So the thing has be physically dragged there. A bunch of capital ships would have to just tow it like a broken down Dodge. Even if they could rig the Citadel's mass effect core to create an aura around itself instead of focusing a beam to dark space, it'd still take days, maybe weeks or even months to drag it to Earth. It's fine before Shepard goes to bed the night before the assault on Cronos and it's already at Earth by the time Cronos is history. That's just not possible.

by Eryri Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:43 pm

Assuming the Reapers really can move the Citadel around the Galaxy (and as Rif points out, that's a big if), the best way to defend it would be to take it down some obscure branch of the relay network and then blow up one of the relays behind it. With the Alliances relatively feeble, short range drives it would have been safely out of their reach for the whole duration of the war. Even if they planned to use it to build the human Reaper, it makes little sense to bring it to Earth given the risks if the Grand High Reaper really does live on it, and as ME2 showed they have alternative ways to build Reapers. Just one of the many reasons that I hope the crucible is a trap. The alternative is to accept some really awful writing.

by Guest Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:12 pm

The whole last chapter feels 'guided'. And not in a 'oh this is just level design' way.

YEAH JUST WALK INTO THAT BEAM IT'LL BE OKAY

by Terramine Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:40 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:*snip*

Some of them did does not equate a fighting force that can take over the Citadel before anyone reacts after it has beefed up its defenses after the last time something like that almost happened.

And it still leaves the glaring problem of it not being addressed or brought up in any capacity. People go like "What, the Reapers have the Citadel at Earth" and then just ignore any of the glaring "how the fuck did they do that?"

Yes but remember... Cerberus is the Reaper's minions. So the reapers could've told them about secrets of the citadel. Such as, a back door into opening the citadel arms or even disabling the ability to close them altogether.

by Terramine Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:42 pm

I feel you guys on the "big if" that is moving the citadel around BTW. Just throwing some ideas out there.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:31 pm

Terramine wrote:However IT started as Byne randomly mentioning the idea and from there is was a gradual VERY SLOW analysis filled with trillions of replays by multiple players.

Not necessarily for everyone. On my first playthrough, it was actually the sounds and the black borders in the confrontation with TIM that made me suspect an indoctrination attempt right away. But the way that scene was set up, it actually felt like that attempt was over the moment you sat down with Anderson. But I was extremely suspicious when I met the "catalyst". I really felt like the Reaper overlord couldn't be trusted, and I did not trust any of its suggestions, even though I did not actively think "indoctrination!" at that particular point. The ending just felt surreal to me, and I couldn't fall asleep that night because I kept thinking about it. It must have been 4 or 5 hours after I finished the game that I was convinced the whole thing was an indoctrination attempt.

So the next day I was chatting about the ending with my friend, and I was going all crazy, like "DUDE! Check out my theory!", and he was like "Oh man, you too?". He thought I'd read about it on the internet, but I didn't even know "IT" was a thing. So he pointed me to the thread on the BS.N.

It sure didn't occur to me on my first playthrough that Shepard could still be in London, or that the whole ending could have been an illusion, all that stuff was just the icing on the cake when we found it. I didn't "need" the tons of evidence we found later to convince me of what I already felt intuitively that very first time, though finding the stuff we did was the sweetest ride.

I'm not saying this to beat myself on the chest, but I really can't stand it when people pretend like one person thought of the idea and the rest of the world just read about it on the internet. I'm sure many people had a similar experience experience, (at least a few people here, and one real life friend of mine), but not all of them feel the need to debate the thing endlessly on the web.

by Terramine Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:09 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:*snip*

Not what I meant at all DD. I just meant the details of the theory itself. Details like which ending to choose, etc. I too can recount the same exact experience you're talking about on my first playthrough. But I choose Destroy simply because that was the obvious Choice.

Honestly I wasn't even JUST suspicious with the Catalyst. I fully knew what the shit. He said he was a Reaper collective conscious and i just KNEW the other Choices were a trap of some kind and that Destroy was the safest bet and true to everything we were told previously for the most part.

by dorktainian Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:47 am

i'd go a little further. the whole fleet attacking the reapers above earth thing stinks of whatthefuckery. Why would any fleet in their right minds fire ordinance at the reapers over earth, knowing that the majority will not hit their targets, therefore obliterating the earth behind the reapers?

Then you hit london, which is very much as london is now. No future architecture as such. Just plain boring filthy london.

Then the whatthefuckery goes up a notch as you run to the beam, harbinger allowing you just to get close enough to assume control. Which retard decided bullrushing the beam was a good idea anyway? Why not rush from all sides, why just one? Surely harbie would have a bit of trouble protecting it that way? brains have gone out the window by this point.

And then..... blurred vision, distorted sound, infinite ammo, restricted movement.

Jump into the beam? seems legit. Everything after that and you are well and truly down the rabbit hole. The magical citadel when down=up. rivers of blood flow incorrectly. Black oily shadows, lack of movement, tims face melting off to reveal husklike tissue underneath, anderson also movement restricted.

Control is the means to defeat the reapers.... over and over again. Sounds like someone is trying hard to influence shepard to pick control. seems legit.

and then the fucktard of all fucktards. Starjar. He suggests the most fucking illogical answer to destroying the reapers. : lets make friends with them and live together. lets all become synthesised, whatever the fuck that means long term (I suggest extinction... which may be the point thinking long term) err... what about all the people they murdered? what about your friends that died fighting them? would it not be the ultimate betrayal to side with this retarded AI?

Then take a step back. remember shepards intent was to destroy the reapers. At the very beginning of the game he hit the mail on the head. We fight or we die. If shepard does not pull the trigger at that point then everything he has fought for over the last 3 games will have been in vain. The reapers win.

Unless you do the only thing that removes the reapers. the is only one choice will remove them from the equation. you must destroy them. you must shoot the tube. You must 'wake up'.

by smash016 Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:02 am

There is no doubt in my or anyone else's right mind here that the ending is not legit. We all know the facts. Another good summary just above.

There is only fear that BW will abandon whatever they were planning. What with all these dumbfounded crybabies for fans, Hudson leaving, and this hypothetical Ark Theory abomination.

by Hanako Ikezawa Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:00 am

dorktainian wrote:the whole fleet attacking the reapers above earth thing stinks of whatthefuckery. Why would any fleet in their right minds fire ordinance at the reapers over earth, knowing that the majority will not hit their targets, therefore obliterating the earth behind the reapers?

I don't see much ITness for this one, actually. While most shots would miss the Reapers, with the number of ships shooting and the number of Reapers there will be enough hits to warrant each volley.

As for the missed shots hitting Earth, Earth has a very good atmosphere for breaking up incoming objects. This is increased by the angle at which the shots come in, since while they are far above the equator the battle still takes place on the equatorial plane, meaning that due to the nature of a sphere the angle is quite steep and like armor this gives the protective nature of our atmosphere a lot more volume to do that.

And even with the shots that may hit Earth, it is only a single planet. If sacrificing it would mean dealing a hard blow to the Reapers, the galaxy will take it.

by dorktainian Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:27 am

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:
dorktainian wrote:the whole fleet attacking the reapers above earth thing stinks of whatthefuckery. Why would any fleet in their right minds fire ordinance at the reapers over earth, knowing that the majority will not hit their targets, therefore obliterating the earth behind the reapers?
I don't see much ITness for this one, actually. While most shots would miss the Reapers, with the number of ships shooting and the number of Reapers there will be enough hits to warrant each volley.

As for the missed shots hitting Earth, Earth has a very good atmosphere for breaking up incoming objects. This is increased by the angle at which the shots come in, since while they are far above the equator the battle still takes place on the equatorial plane, meaning that due to the nature of a sphere the angle is quite steep and like armor this gives the protective nature of our atmosphere a lot more volume to do that.

And even with the shots that may hit Earth, it is only a single planet. If sacrificing it would mean dealing a hard blow to the Reapers, the galaxy will take it.

I'm assuming the 20 kiloton slugs fired at the reapers and missing would indeed explode when they encountered enough physical resistance to do so... much like entering earths atmosphere at a sharp angle. Not saying it's IT or owt, just bizarre.

Explosions above the ground could do far more damage than explosions hitting the ground.

by smash016 Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:41 am

As long as everyone doesn't fire "from the hip" like a cowboy but instead checks their targets, shots should either hit the enemy or get detonated prematurely by defense systems.

Unless it is established that Reapers have such agility so as to simply dodge incoming fire.

by Rifneno Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:10 pm

People always complain that it makes no sense that they'd fire on the Reapers above Earth, but I never see anyone provide an alternative. What are they supposed to do? Just NOT attack the Reapers? Magically teleport behind them? Hold a bake sale and hope the Reapers have a sweet tooth so they'll stop their siege of Earth?

by dorktainian Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:29 pm

there are numerous things the alliance could have done when approaching the reapers. Hide behind asteroids. Use ghost ships as WMDs and ram the reapers with them. Use Cains (proven to work). Open a FTL corridor to just behind the reapers and attack their rear. Fire huge fkin magnets at them.

Or you could just blow the citadel, therefore rendering the reapers inert.

by Rifneno Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:04 pm

dorktainian wrote:Hide behind asteroids.

You seem to have confused Mass Effect with a Wile E. Coyote cartoon. Please remedy this situation.

Use ghost ships as WMDs and ram the reapers with them.

Reapers are covered in AA artillery, which is why they can't be destroyed with a simple cold war era thermonuclear ICBM.

Use Cains (proven to work).

Worked once against a pitiful Destroyer that had a specialized cannon on it, and probably only worked because it detonated the cannon's ammunition.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 17 Comparison_sovereign_v_s_destroyer_by_nach77-d5g9xdv

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 17 Comparison_sovereign_v_s_destroyer_by_nach77-d5g9xdv

Exactly what do you think it's going to do to a capital ship? Less than nothing?

Open a FTL corridor to just behind the reapers and attack their rear.

You're aware that the goal of Sword and Shield is to get control of the Citadel long enough to put it on the McGuffin, right? You seem to think the goal is to break formation and die as fast as possible.

Fire huge fkin magnets at them.

I don't... WHAT?!

Or you could just blow the citadel, therefore rendering the reapers inert.

The Citadel superstructure is quantum shielded, all of Sword could pound on it all day and not scratch it.

by Guest Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:53 pm

SwobyJ wrote:The whole last chapter feels 'guided'. And not in a 'oh this is just level design' way.

YEAH JUST WALK INTO THAT BEAM IT'LL BE OKAY

"Guided" is a good word. Sort of like you were being forced (via the lack of alternative options) to go through the motions and feel powerless.

by ZerebusPrime Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:48 pm

No no no! I like this one. Huge fkin magnets! Lots and lots of huge fkin magnets!

...Reapers are magnetic, right? ...'cause otherwise I don't know what I'm doing.

by smash016 Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:01 pm

Rifneno wrote:
dorktainian wrote:Hide behind asteroids.

You seem to have confused Mass Effect with a Wile E. Coyote cartoon. Please remedy this situation.

Guys... this just made my day.

Gotta admit, Dork... Silliness.

ZerebusPrime wrote:No no no! I like this one. Huge fkin magnets! Lots and lots of huge fkin magnets!

...Reapers are magnetic, right? ...'cause otherwise I don't know what I'm doing.

Lure them into our mighty oceans then watch them slowly rust away, moohahaha... No wonder those three Leviathans survived.

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