Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by Terramine Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:30 pm

If destroy were legitimate... I could see it destroying the Reapers simply because it's their main artery. It explains the thing about the "catalyst" having to do with Reaper biology and their weakness. The Reapers MUST have creators. They're machines. I think the Leviathans are real to an extent, as in they're the legitimate creators. But that they're no longer alive. I think the Leviathans we see are just the Reapers exposing some truth about themselves to Shepard in order to get him to accept what they are.

Here's my theory: The Leviathans made the Citadel and the relay networks, to move their giant cuttlefish asses around the galaxy. Then they invented an AI just because... well more to say they just wanted to evolve technologically and happened to go down that path. This AI tricked them and convinced some into being converted into the first Reaper which it then integrated itself into. This lead to the AI gaining Leviathan enthrallment among many other things and he slaughtered the rest. But because lots of life forms were actually very small. The intelligence decided to adapt the interface for the citadel over time to accommodate new situations.

The interface being the decision room. Harbinger needs a complaint Avatar in order for a new Reaper to be functional and every 50,000 years he convinces such an individual into making a Choice. The ideal choice is the green one, as it is what is needed for a Capital Ship. The "control" decision is a subversion for those who simply cannot be sold on jumping into a green disintegration beam. Instead you grab the "control" handles and have your mind uploaded into a Destroyer. This is how Destroyers are made and wasn't added until later when the AI was intelligent to calculate Destroyers into it's plans.

So where does Destroy come in? Well it's possible that this is either an intentional self destruct button on part of Harbinger. Or it's an inevitable product by organics themselves. Maybe it's a choice that Harbinger is FORCED to give to the Organics by depending on them to build the Crucible and having to CONVINCE them to Choose what it wants?

In fact it may be because the species builds it with the INTENT to destroy the Reapers and thus the blueprints somewhat adhere to what organics WILL. What they /intend/ or whatever.

by Terramine Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:11 pm

If destroying the Citadel itself were to destroy the Reapers. That would make a lot of sense... but as others have pointed out, how do you destroy the Citadel? It's nigh-indestructible. Unless shooting that tube literally destroys it. Or maybe, this has revealed to us at the very least... the true weakness of the Reapers. That destroying the Citadel kills them. Again, it makes sense.

Even thematically the Citadel and the Relays are not just the heart of the Galaxy... but the heart of the Reaper's influence on us. Destroying it, is thematically and metaphorically destroying the Reapers themselves.

by Terramine Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:12 pm

However this leaves some interesting implications... the fact that the Citadel looks completely different in the new game implicates that it seriously might be the future where there are no Reapers.

by dorktainian Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:00 pm

OK guys. Silly.

But you have to admit blowing the citadel (OK... If it could be done) would be a good move.... OK maybe another silly idea. I know.. Let's suit up some honeybadgers and throw them at the reapers?

Seriously tho were talking about a literal ending. A literal ending does not compute.

by Rifneno Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:02 pm

dorktainian wrote:But you have to admit blowing the citadel (OK... If it could be done) would be a good move....

During a time of peace, they should tow that fucker to the nearest star and drop it in.

by ZerebusPrime Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:50 pm

So.

Yeah.

...

We've rehashed everything anyway, so I might as well ask:

What's up with Haestrom's Star now that the dark energy plot has been dropped?

by Hanako Ikezawa Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:52 am

The only Reapers that would be destroyed by destroying the Citadel are the ones in the immediate vicinity whom are caught up in the supernova-level explosion that occurs whenever a Mass Relay is destroyed, though the Citadel would probably produce a hypernova-level explosion.

by Hanako Ikezawa Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:53 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:So.

Yeah.

...

We've rehashed everything anyway, so I might as well ask:

What's up with Haestrom's Star now that the dark energy plot has been dropped?

They could always implement the Dark Energy plot into the new plot for the new games.

by Terramine Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:19 am

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:The only Reapers that would be destroyed by destroying the Citadel are the ones in the immediate vicinity whom are caught up in the supernova-level explosion that occurs whenever a Mass Relay is destroyed, though the Citadel would probably produce a hypernova-level explosion.

Uh... I'm confused... you're blatantly asserting this like you have knowledge I don't. I'm suggesting it may literally kill all reapers everywhere. If the citadel is necessary for putting an avatar into the Reaper(the protoreaper was just some quick early work to speed things along, they never planned to finish the thing before arriving so who knows what they would've done with it before it was finished). Then it's easily conceivable that destroying the citadel will detach all the main avatars ever integrated into a Reaper FROM said reapers... that is to say, every Reaper ever.

Unless you know something I don't that renders this even just UNLIKELY little alone impossible. The Reapers have to have an actual weak spot, I haven't heard a better idea as to what it would be. Waking Nightmare Theory does make some sense.

by Terramine Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:20 am

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:So.

Yeah.

...

We've rehashed everything anyway, so I might as well ask:

What's up with Haestrom's Star now that the dark energy plot has been dropped?
They could always implement the Dark Energy plot into the new plot for the new games.

Which I can easily conceive of with these new races we've heard about.

by Terramine Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:26 am

dorktainian wrote:OK guys. Silly.

But you have to admit blowing the citadel (OK... If it could be done) would be a good move.... OK maybe another silly idea. I know.. Let's suit up some honeybadgers and throw them at the reapers?

Seriously tho were talking about a literal ending. A literal ending does not compute.

I'm not talking about a literal ending. I'm saying the 3 choices don't do exactly what Starbinger says. They don't shoot any magic beam.

I'm thinking Synthesis assimilates Shepard's "essence" into a new Capital ship. Control uploads a digital copy of his mind to a Destroyer. And lastly Destroy simply blows up the citadel itself doing something like disconnecting all Reapers from their avatar personalities. Practically ripping the core "soul" out of them, and thus killing them.

That image Bioware posted the one about "speculations for everyone" that talked about the matrix movies. It had said on it that Catalyst = Reaper Biology = Potential weakness. The "Catalyst" being the Citadel itself, and the hub of all Reaper minds aka the "Reaper Collective".

by Hanako Ikezawa Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:37 am

Terramine wrote:
Hanako Ikezawa wrote:The only Reapers that would be destroyed by destroying the Citadel are the ones in the immediate vicinity whom are caught up in the supernova-level explosion that occurs whenever a Mass Relay is destroyed, though the Citadel would probably produce a hypernova-level explosion.
Uh... I'm confused... you're blatantly asserting this like you have knowledge I don't. I'm suggesting it may literally kill all reapers everywhere. If the citadel is necessary for putting an avatar into the Reaper(the protoreaper was just some quick early work to speed things along, they never planned to finish the thing before arriving so who knows what they would've done with it before it was finished). Then it's easily conceivable that destroying the citadel will detach all the main avatars ever integrated into a Reaper FROM said reapers... that is to say, every Reaper ever.

Unless you know something I don't that renders this even just UNLIKELY little alone impossible. The Reapers have to have an actual weak spot, I haven't heard a better idea as to what it would be. Waking Nightmare Theory does make some sense.

Except the Citadel was built by the Reapers, so if it kills all of them they literally built an Independence Day system. The Reapers may be many things, but they aren't that stupid. Self-preservation is their thing, so why build something that would undo that intentionally? The Crucible being a legitimate weapon designed by other races makes more sense than that since at least then the mass destruction system was built by external forces.

And you are asserting that the Human Proto-Reaper was literally a waste of resources without any evidence to back it up. The Reapers have been doing this for at least a billion years. They know how to make more of themselves, so they don't need to practice like you are implying the Human Proto-Reaper is. If it was just practice, and they chose Shepard to be the avatar for the Human Reaper, why did the Collectors go after Shepard if the one they were building was just a test?

Why do the Reapers need an actual weak spot that wipes them all out in a single shot? Plus they do have a weak spot: their Mass Effect core. Take that out, and they will die.

by dorktainian Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:15 am

sorry but i still go with the crucible being a huge fucking reaper creation power source. If as you say they are as clever as you propose then they would not have let it develop as far as it did. instead they would have taken the design, altered it to suit their needs, then convinced certain people it was going to kill reapers, when in fact it was a huge reaper creator power source.

As far as destroying the citadel goes, my feeling is that if we kill starjar then we kill the reapers. He as much admits that he created the reapers. If the scrotechild is giving the orders, then taking away those orders may leave the reapers confused enough for us to be able to pick them off. Maybe the technology that is Mass Effect is related to the citadel and the relays, taking them out in effect renders the reapers confused or useless?

Or we could just destroy them. If we believe a word starjar says.?

by smash016 Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:18 am

Dark energy plot might still be there. In fact, it is there in rudimentary form, because for some reason BW didn't feel they needed to cut its remains from the game.

The plot was concerned with the ultimate fate of the universe, right? Because of mass and astrophysics and stuff, life would be fucked one day. The Reapers were given a mandate to preserve all life by any means. They even logically deduced the Leviathans needed to be preserved. So these two plots are not necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, have something in common. If you assume the Reapers are eternal and as such have a non-temporal view on things, they just started solving things right away, starting at the source.

Now the narrative seems to present a very... absurd and ironic way of preservation / "salvation". I have a theory it actually does benefit organics to some degree, but that's Scary Door.

And yes, the Crucible is a dubious device. On account of not just the endings but just... the entire plot and what everyone's saying about it. It's an obvious red flag. Doesn't mean we can't use it to our advantage, because Shepard is special and everything. But it's highly suspect. "Massive in scope, but strangely elegant." Strange indeed.

by Raistlin Majere Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:40 am

My problem is always that the talk of preservation does not match what is shown in the Rannoch arc.

The Catalyst says that "Reapers harvest all life - organic and synthetic - preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict."

However without Shepards interference, and in quite a few cases even with Shepards interference, either the Geth, a Synthetic race, or the Quarians, an Organic race, will be destroyed utterly with no visible harvesting having taken place and considering only one Reaper is at Rannoch, a destroyer at that, it is quite unlikely any harvesting took place.

In short it goes against the stated goal of the Reapers which in turn throws all the Catalyst says into doubt. But no news there.

However it makes me subscribe more to EDI's line of thought, that the Reapers dont give a damn about any higher cause, at least none they will reveal, and that this is just their reproduction cycle.

Though on an unrelated note I always loved this line from Habringer during the battle against the Proto Reaper:
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

Yeah what does that say about the Reapers? Grin

by smash016 Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:28 am

Yeah, besides them lacking the temporal perspective of organics, they can only carry out their mandate, save all life, if they prevent synthetic revolts. So the ultimate goal would be related to the dark energy problem, but to reach it, they need to act earlier lest synthetics wipe us out before that time.

The inherent elegance, imo, is that they prevent a technological singularity by introducing another singularity first -- themselves. This singularity theme is at the core of the narrative, implicitly but constantly. I mean singularity in a broader sense, a development that changes life as we know it and is an evolutionary paradigm shift.

by dorktainian Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:43 am

I'll just throw this in. It's an oldie but goldie. So many questions as yet unanswered.

As far as a tech singularity is concerned, my feeling on it is that if it is indeed going to be reached, then it should be reached in a natural progression, not by having machine gods fly in, and indoctrinate someone to pull the trigger without giving sentient life a say on the matter.

by smash016 Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:26 pm

In a way, it is a natural progression. Maybe not biological, but very natural still. I mean in a natural selection kind of way. Maybe also as a necessity one day. If we want to survive.

Am I indoctrinated?

Well, Shepard has a say on the matter. But it still feels pretty guided. Along the paths they desire either way. Unless you Refuse, perhaps.

by dorktainian Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:35 pm

i'm so sure the rest of the galaxy would thank shepard for choosing synthesis if they could....NOT!! intergalactic indiscriminate species genetic re-write.

You cannot justify one person imposing synthesis on everyone and everything else. That kind of talk should stay on BSN.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 18 2n6dlza

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 18 2n6dlza

by noobcannon Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:14 am

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:The only Reapers that would be destroyed by destroying the Citadel are the ones in the immediate vicinity whom are caught up in the supernova-level explosion that occurs whenever a Mass Relay is destroyed, though the Citadel would probably produce a hypernova-level explosion.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 18 0d41808f60af8871fa122b3b0f37ab1b

by TurianRebel212 Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:34 am

lol, noobcannon lol. GG.

by smash016 Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:19 am

Lol who is that guy?

by dorktainian Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:32 am

by TurianRebel212 Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:37 am

Are we goona post some explosion gifs now???

Well then.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 18 Tumblr_ncbn01m1AS1tlowv5o1_500

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 18 Tumblr_ncbn01m1AS1tlowv5o1_500

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 18 9b71JOK

This.... Is just the beginning!

by dorktainian Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:32 pm

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 18 Pixel_vagas_harvester_by_steeljoe-d4wvjlu

seriously tho we do see the citadel explode when it fires....

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