(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Ithurael wrote:I thought you guys/gals would get a kick out of this!
http://www.pointandclickbait.com/2016/06/mass-effect-andromeda-import-saves/

I know I can't wait to see how all my negative criticism will impact on a game I won't buy :)

"horrific skeleton creature who is constantly screaming in pain"

Huh. They imported my Saints Row III character!

Ithurael wrote:I thought you guys/gals would get a kick out of this!
http://www.pointandclickbait.com/2016/06/mass-effect-andromeda-import-saves/

I know I can't wait to see how all my negative criticism will impact on a game I won't buy :)

Raistlin Majere wrote:Whichever way you twist and turn it, ARKCON makes no goddamn sense.

Massive amounts of ressources, workers and all of the galaxies greatest minds were working on the Crucible, so who the fuck was working on this ARKCON contingency which is a project far greater in scope. While also keeping Shepard out of the loop on it...

The sheer stupidity is mindboggling, but I guess that was established early on.

This is exactly why I was so vehemently opposed to Andromeda until it was officially announced. It doesn't just break minor lore like the static discharge thing, it goddamn RAPES common sense in too many ways to count.

Keeping Shepard out is one thing. They kept the goddamn Shadow Broker out of it though. No one can keep anything a secret from the Shadow Broker, with a multitude of operatives in the highest level of every government in the galaxy. In ME2, Glyph is casually checking to see what the soul name of the hanar's Prothean worshiping pope is like it's no big deal. But they kept this ark bullshit secret apparently. Seems legit.

dorktainian wrote:finally the ultimate fucktarded ending - Synthesis.

Conrad: Wow, you're that justicar right? Can I ask you something about the code?
Samara: What is it?
Conrad: Well let's say you could end the war by making everyone part organic and part machine. Like, a new DNA or something. What does the code say you should do?
Samara: Conrad. I am nearly one thousand years old, and that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.
Conrad: :(

There are already certain ANALysis videos out there (even retweeted by Bioware staff) with them theorizing 'Shepard was not in the know because it was on a need to know basis'

These are the so called hardcore fans Bioware are latching onto now for virals? So desperate to make everyone a bit more dumb just so they can peddle that nonsense.

It makes no sense like I said in the speculation thread for MEA to have Shepard not know about it, even worse poor Liara gets a slap in the face.

There are still far more problems with this entire ARKCON bullshit. If they happened to send the ARKs before the reapers invaded, lore already establishes no one gave a rat's ass about the reaper  threat until about that time when the Bahak System had to be destroyed and the Batarian hegemony went dark due to Reaper invasion. We have now confirmation from E3 this is not just an Alliance effort, even the Alliance had no real time for Shepard's Reaper threat stories apart from moral support through Hackett and Anderson. Suddenly now the council races just happened to decide to put all efforts towards this ARK project before the reapers invaded that's bad enough, now if this whole thing happened while the war was ongoing that's even more pathetic. But with fans like the one they have retweeted, I guess they are pretty confident to count on short memories...or maybe... lore? Logic? pfft that's for losers...

Knowing it's a Mac Walters show at the end of the day, can't rule out a Cerberus angle to all this, somehow no one knew but TIM knew so he had some agents(s) in the ARKs. There was some sort of leak a while back about aliens dropping down from Cerberus ships, at the time people suggested, if that's true, it might have been just a placeholder. Now though given how bad everything is shaping up to be nothing will be surprising. The groupies are so concerned about how pretty their characters look and how the romances will be, no time to confront Bioware about the BS they are about to pull.

Rifneno wrote:

Raistlin Majere wrote:Whichever way you twist and turn it, ARKCON makes no goddamn sense.

Massive amounts of ressources, workers and all of the galaxies greatest minds were working on the Crucible, so who the fuck was working on this ARKCON contingency which is a project far greater in scope. While also keeping Shepard out of the loop on it...

The sheer stupidity is mindboggling, but I guess that was established early on.

This is exactly why I was so vehemently opposed to Andromeda until it was officially announced.  It doesn't just break minor lore like the static discharge thing, it goddamn RAPES common sense in too many ways to count.

Keeping Shepard out is one thing.  They kept the goddamn Shadow Broker out of it though.  No one can keep anything a secret from the Shadow Broker, with a multitude of operatives in the highest level of every government in the galaxy.  In ME2, Glyph is casually checking to see what the soul name of the hanar's Prothean worshiping pope is like it's no big deal.  But they kept this ark bullshit secret apparently.  Seems legit.

Depending on what they go with the only fun I could see me having with Andromeda is trying to figure out just how many Dreadnoughts worth of materials was wasted on that fleet of cowards. Would be really funny if it might have been enough to tip the scales on a conventional victory...no wait that would not be funny, that would be disgustingly stupid.

Raistlin Majere wrote:

Depending on what they go with the only fun I could see me having with Andromeda is trying to figure out just how many Dreadnoughts worth of materials was wasted on that fleet of cowards. Would be really funny if it might have been enough to tip the scales on a conventional victory...no wait that would not be funny, that would be disgustingly stupid.

You'd have thought that Hackett might have found a use for a few ships retrofitted with some of these miraculous, non-discharging drives. What with them potentially shifting the entire balance of the war and all, since the Reapers could no longer corral their opponents, even if they shut down the relays. The Alliance would have an entire galaxy to hide in and use hit and run tactics on the Reapers for a very long time. But that, of course, would require Bioware to write the Alliance and Council species as something other than gibbering idiots.

Okay look. Personally I am running with the idea that Shepard was never meant to break out of indoctrination. That is a huge assumption that, in all fairness yeah, basically leaves us without any sort of proper resolution. Because Shepard has to get out of the rubble and do something about the damn Reapers that are /still around/.

But just level with me for a second. Let's say that rather than breaking out of indoctrination, the whole point was to say "Shepard ended up indoctrinated". First they showed us Saren, and then TIM, and throughout the whole trilogy, countless shoehorning of the idea that Shepard is undergoing indoctrination.

Now, the writers were originally planning to have Shepard implanted with Reaper tech and if you actually look at the concept art for it:


Look how far gone Shepard is. There is no way the Shepard in that concept art, was going to stand any chance of breaking out of indoctrination. He's already full on Reaper Avatar under what flesh remains. Making him 1 on 1 for another Saren or TIM. Even in the ME3 we got, we see in Synthesis that Shepard is very husk-like under his flesh. So let's say Shepard is definitely indoctrinated... so what? How does that fix anything at all?

Well because it completely changes what exactly is going on. If Shepard is just flat out doomed here, then it's definitely not about what he goes on to do after the decision chamber. If we still run with the idea that most of Mass Effect 3 happened, and it wasn't until the end when the indoctrination really came crashing down on Shepard. Then up until this point, Shepard killed a few Reapers himself. He cured the genophage, united the galaxy, etc. His contributions were very significant in the grand scheme of things, and as pointed out in ME2, throughout the whole series Shepard is basically building himself up as an Icon. A Legend. All around, his impact on things has a traction to it. Building up. Like a big collective hammer aimed at the Reapers.

By the time Shepard makes a choice in the decision chamber. His usefulness has hit it's epitome. Whatever the ultimate collective effect of Shepard's actions throughout the series is, it is set into play and there is nothing that nobody not even the Reapers can do to stop it.

I'm pretty sure we are all aware of all the religious parallels. The parallels between Shepard and Jesus, etc. The fact that Shepard died and came back, etc. But what I want to call attention to, most of all, is Shepard's name. Shepard...

shep·herd
ˈSHepərd/
noun
noun: shepherd; plural noun: shepherds

1.tend (sheep) as a shepherd.
       give guidance to (someone), especially on spiritual matters.
       "she had to submit the control of her career and money to a group who shepherded her"
2.guide or direct in a particular direction.

The second definition is in bold for a reason. To guide or direct in a particular /direction/. You mean... like... outside of the galaxy? The direction towards, the Andromeda galaxy? See, Shepard is very much a Pawn in the grand scheme of things. The writers made this very apparent through the whole trilogy as pretty much everybody in a position of power mostly just sees Shepard as a tool to use for their advantage. We've seen it with Udina, with The Council, with TIM, with Harbinger, etc. While Shepard tends to largely undermine this, it cannot be avoided. If Hackett among others in a position of authority have learned a significant amount about Reaper indoctrination, to realize and notice the symptoms in Shepard. If Shepard is being significantly affected by Reaper Indoctrination, then it would make sense to keep this secret from Shepard. Never mind the simple fact that in reality Shepard is just a soldier among soldiers. A unique soldier but not someone who there'd be any real reason to involve in the first place. I mean, Rif obviously can agree at least that keeping this shit from Shepard isn't that improbable.

Not to mention the potential strategic reasons. Again, there is no reason to assume that Shepard is being included in this ARKCON plan. That he's more useful as a sacrificial piece if anything by time the end of ME3 hits. So what if the whole point to Shepard's trilogy. Was to be a Sheperd for the galaxy? It fits thematically. ARKCON isn't mentioned anywhere because it isn't directly a part of Shepard's story. It's merely the ultimate result of Shepard's efforts, which we get to see in the new game.

Now as for where all the resources come from? Well I'm pretty sure it's actually flagrantly false that all the resources that the galaxy could muster, are being used. That's not what Hacket was saying, he was saying all the resources the humans could muster, on top of whatever resources Shepard manages to recruit. But think about it for a second. This cycle has had a bit of a head start compared to every cycle before it. No cycle has ever had enough time or whatever, to figure out how to defeat the Reapers. But there is 1 obvious way staring you in the face.

If someone told me that there were demigod machines that controlled the entire galaxy. I would immediately recognize that the 1 for sure way to escape their control... is to simply leave the galaxy itself. If you achieve that, then you've found a definitive way to thwart them. You don't have to destroy, control, or synthesize. You just gotta RUN as far as you can until they can't reach you. And I am pretty sure that with the head start that our cycle had, somebody had to of thought of this.

Now, while you may be concerned with the factor of resources and whatnot. Do you think that had Shepard stepped to the rest of the galaxy and said "We can either try out this completely mysterious weapon that we don't know if it works, or we can make a break for it and run", that the rest of the galaxy would have voted for the crucible? Hell no. Why would they make the choice that is completely uncertain to work, in contrast to the one that is most certainly going to work?

What I'm trying to say is. Just the very idea of MEA, brings to question why they would have ever wasted time on the crucible in the first place. How wasn't Arkcon, what they would have done in the first place? The crucible was always a shady idea and it became completely bullshit at the end of the game. It literally made us all think "What the fuck bioware, what is this BULLSHIT!?". But Arkcon as an idea, makes VASTLY more sense. It makes PERFECT sense actually, the ONLY real solution to the Reaper problem. The only thing that is fathomable to work.

So what's the deal, why the whole Crucible shit? Why didn't Arkon just completely take the place of the Crucible? Well, because, they needed a distraction of some sort? And with how massive of an undertaking Arkon is, they couldn't have just distracted from it with anything. It had to be something big enough to not let the Reapers catch wind of something even bigger. The more I think about it, the more it makes too much sense if anything. Like a perfect seamless fit.

In fact, the crucible itself is a very iconic example of how if the galaxy works together. They can create megacolossal structures that they don't even fully comprehend.

ARKCON isn't THAT crazy of an idea. I mean it kinda is with just how far the kind of travel we are talking about is. But it's... travel. Transportation has always been one of the easiest and most guaranteed things to innovate. Whether we are talking about land travel, ocean travel, sky travel, space travel, etc. It doesn't matter. Someone like Elon Musk can just pull a megafast train out of his ass whenever he feels like it and there are ALREADY in the modern day, hypothetical plans for traveling from galaxy to galaxy. Pure speculation but it goes to show how even non-spacefairing humans ALREADY HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW TO DO IT.

I'm pretty sure one of the main thematic points to the Mass Effect trilogy was that. If we set our minds to it and work together, we can find a way. If you don't think that this has been a significant part of the series then you most certainly have not been playing the same series that I have.

I see plenty of precedence for this, and before I heard of it there was no precedence for anything at all period.

In fact, they would have to keep hushhush about it from specific sources specifically. Due to how the information could leak to the Reapers. They weren't even that careful about keeping the Crucible a secret, which is very strange. As strange as it is that the Reapers didn't step in and stop it's construction.

If the Crucible was all we had up our sleeve, why didn't we make any serious effort to keep it secret? If anything it was just kept hush enough to seem like something we wanted hidden, but not enough to actually keep it hidden. Again, the perfect thing to distract from an actual fucking secret.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2016/06/25/mass-effect-novel-series-connects-original-trilogy-to-andromeda

Isnt that so cool. Cant wait to hear cause i wont be reading how mass effect gets ruined further

You know what's more important? Putting lore like this in your main fucking game....jesus. I have nothing against novels but you shouldn't have to read them to get basic stuff like WHY ARE WE GOING TO ANDROMEDA! What should link original trilogy to ME:A is the opening to ME:A.

They haven't got writers yet for 2 &3 but have made up plans for 1 and 4 That right there is a sure sign of inconsistent horseshit being made up along the way.

WeAreHarbinger wrote:You know what's more important? Putting lore like this in your main fucking game....jesus. I have nothing against novels but you shouldn't have to read them to get basic stuff like WHY ARE WE GOING TO ANDROMEDA! What should link original trilogy to ME:A is the opening to ME:A.  

Honestly I think it really depends here. I mean if the scope of the game is really huge, then I could see it not being a big deal that it doesn't start off there.

It's been said that the events of Andromeda take place 100 years after the end of Mass Effect 3. So basically it was a really long trip. We are already in Andromeda at the start of the game. So considering that sort of a timespan, it's liable that the way we get thrusted into things doesn't give time for that sort of extrapolation.

In fact, I'm pretty sure if you just traveled to a whole other fucking GALAXY. You're probably too hyped up about how you're finally there. Everybody would be focused on finding out what the new galaxy is like.

So I don't know if this has been pointed out by anyone. But in the original Star Trek series, there is a certain part of the story where there are plants that basically hypnotize you to worship the planet they are on like it's some sort of god. This bears a striking resemblance to the primal-indoctrination plants that the Leviathans are implied to have all over the place.

Not to mention that James T Kirk, the main protagonist of the show and captain of the ship that is central to the series(Pretty much the star trek equivalent to Normandy)... is particularly resistant to the plants' spores. He does indeed end up starting to succumb to them, but at first he wasn't affected at all and he breaks away when he does start succumbing because of the bond he has with his ship. Because the ship is so important to him, he ends up feeling aggression towards the idea that the spores try to take him away from his ship.

This bears somewhat of a resemblance to how Reaper Indoctrination is somewhat thwarted by the Zhus Hope's colonists because of their connection with the Thorian. This may explain why Shepard was as resistant to Reaper indoctrination as he/she was. Due to his/her connection to the Normandy and it's crew.

Captain Kirk is not, from my knowledge so far, outright said to be "special" in any sort of way. But yet he is sorta made out to be that way. The situations he gets out of, the way he always manages to find a solution even when it's completely unprecedented(He discovered the weakness of the plant's spores in a matter of hours, when these plants haven't ever been researched by any sort of professional), and the way his charm and intimidation is almost like some sort of supernatural ability. It reminds me a lot of Shepard.

Statement by Titan Books

"While earlier Mass Effect games focused on the defense of the Milky Way galaxy, with humans pitted against a race of ruthless mechanical invaders known as the Reapers, the new story will take the game in a dramatic new direction and is set in a new region of space, with a new and deadly enemy. Titan will publish four unmissable Mass Effect novels, sure to appeal to the game’s huge number of fans. The novels will act as prequel and sequels to the events in the games and will become part of the overarching Mass Effect saga. They will focus on key characters and answer the many questions fans have been asking."

Maybe our IT reveal will be in the upcoming novels? They promise us answers.

Jusseb wrote:

Maybe our IT reveal will be in the upcoming novels? They promise us answers.

Nope not a chance. They have made it clear they are not going to disturb the trilogy's ending choices, which is why they are running away to Andromeda, which in and of itself a major logic fail, lore breaking horseshit.

In that same news release they also talk about how they have writers lined up for 1 and 4 but still haven't made plan as to who will write 2 and 3. If that isn't a clear sign of a messed up novel series I don't know what is. Mass Effect Deception is regarded as a terrible piece of work one which even Bioware had to acknowledge as being terribad. The reason was obvious, it was not written by Drew Karphyshyn someone who actually knows the MEU and the lore intimately because he made it. When random writers take up the job of such a complicated universe that has so many details it is going to be end up a mess. But then again the need to be at Andromeda is also a big mess, maybe good writing and lore sense doesn't matter anymore because dollars.

They'll answer your questions for sure about how and when the ARK project began, who over saw it, some new characters like we read in the novels like Revelations, Ascension. Nothing with regards to ME3' climax will be addressed in any shape or form.

There'll be some kind of answer but it won't be satisfying. More importantly it won't be the answer the original crew (Hudson etc.) had in mind when they made ME3. It won't be anything close to a reveal but more like a makeshift alibi for disrespecting the trilogy.

Looking forward to the hypothetical day one of them steps up and tells us what the plan really was.

Hi by the way, long time since I've been here.

Jusseb wrote:Statement by Titan Books

"While earlier Mass Effect games focused on the defense of the Milky Way galaxy, with humans pitted against a race of ruthless mechanical invaders known as the Reapers, the new story will take the game in a dramatic new direction and is set in a new region of space, with a new and deadly enemy. Titan will publish four unmissable Mass Effect novels, sure to appeal to the game’s huge number of fans. The novels will act as prequel and sequels to the events in the games and will become part of the overarching Mass Effect saga. They will focus on key characters and answer the many questions fans have been asking."

Maybe our IT reveal will be in the upcoming novels? They promise us answers.

No.

Not even a one in a million chance. The entire point of putting the game in Andromeduh is to avoid dealing with the endings. If they were going to give us a reveal, we wouldn't be heading to Andromeduh. That's simply all there is to it.

Rifneno wrote:

Jusseb wrote:Statement by Titan Books

"While earlier Mass Effect games focused on the defense of the Milky Way galaxy, with humans pitted against a race of ruthless mechanical invaders known as the Reapers, the new story will take the game in a dramatic new direction and is set in a new region of space, with a new and deadly enemy. Titan will publish four unmissable Mass Effect novels, sure to appeal to the game’s huge number of fans. The novels will act as prequel and sequels to the events in the games and will become part of the overarching Mass Effect saga. They will focus on key characters and answer the many questions fans have been asking."

Maybe our IT reveal will be in the upcoming novels? They promise us answers.

No.

Not even a one in a million chance.  The entire point of putting the game in Andromeduh is to avoid dealing with the endings.  If they were going to give us a reveal, we wouldn't be heading to Andromeduh.  That's simply all there is to it.

You're probably right. But one of those 'many questions fans have been asking' is the fate of Shepard. That is the key question here. Not addressing that in the upcoming novels is impossible. Not even considering all the other plotholes and questions leading to Andromeda.

What happened to Shepard? Did the Reapers win? What was the meaning of the breathscene? When was the ARK fleet build and did if fled in the M3 timeline?

They can't write 4 novels without addressing that.

And what harm can be done to tell what happened to Shepard at this point? It doesn't have any effect on Andromeda? The ARK fleet fled, and probably depleted it's resources and can't return. The story starts anew there anyway.

Wait.  You're relying on the novels for a reveal now?

Hoo-boy....

It's either in the videogames or it's not going to count.  ME:4ndromeda or ME:5uper.  And at this point it basically requires an indoctrinated Shepard to lead a Reaper force in chasing down the Ark colonists.  Or equivalent stretch, like returning a few games later and finding the Milky Way utterly cleansed and the Yaahg working to take over the recently rediscovered Citadel. How much patience do we have?

Raistlin Majere wrote:Depending on what they go with the only fun I could see me having with Andromeda is trying to figure out just how many Dreadnoughts worth of materials was wasted on that fleet of cowards. Would be really funny if it might have been enough to tip the scales on a conventional victory...no wait that would not be funny, that would be disgustingly stupid.

Well, no worries there. Conventional victory was never in the same universe as possible. Let us assume the following: A) the Leviathan of Dis was one of the oldest Reapers, B) The Reapers only harvest the Milky Way, C) The Reapers only make one capital ship per cycle, D) the Reapers lose one capital ship in battle every other cycle (writers along with common sense confirmed that they don't typically lose a single one).

These are VERY conservative estimates and put a lot of assumptions on a lot of things that keep the Reaper numbers down while not assuming anything that boosts their numbers. It still leaves us with an astounding 10,000 Reaper capital ships against the rest of the galaxy's 85-ish combined dreadnoughts. And it takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down one capital ship. So even by the most conservative estimates possible, we'd need to go from 85ish dreadnoughts to 40,000.

And then there's the Destroyers, which are said to "make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet" despite the fact that they're little babies.



We have, at the very least, 10,000 of those cuttlefish bastards. It could easily be 100,000 or even 1,000,000. And yet, those little bastards make up the bulk of their fleet. How fucking many are there? Do numbers go that high?

No, we were never going to win conventionally. No one ever was. The Protheans were much more advanced and much more warlike, and they got fucking curbstomped.

Jusseb wrote:But one of those 'many questions fans have been asking' is the fate of Shepard. That is the key question here. Not addressing that in the upcoming novels is impossible.

Howso?

Rifneno wrote:

Jusseb wrote:But one of those 'many questions fans have been asking' is the fate of Shepard. That is the key question here. Not addressing that in the upcoming novels is impossible.

Howso?

I'm just so fucking curious in how they will explain key questions about key characters and then not address the fate op Shepard.

Jusseb wrote:I'm just so fucking curious in how they will explain key questions about key characters and then not address the fate op Shepard.

Well that's easy.

They're not going to.

They're just going to start talking about the new characters in the new scenario and go from there, not mentioning ME3 except for canon stuff. If they do talk about the exodus from the Milky Way, it'll happen before the assault on Earth. I would stake Dwailing's life on it. Or even something valuable.

If anything this Ark is going to be launched pre London. How i imagine it will go

*Commander Shepard gives great speech with vague gender reference wishing them good luck on their journey*
*Shepard heads to London*
*Ark heads off*
*cyro/stasis sleep intensifies*
*wake up*
Ryder: "We made it" "We'll never know if Shepard did their thing and saved the galaxy"
and... *story*.

That's just one example, but you get my meaning. They can kick these novels off anywhere before London and they don't have to touch the ending whatsoever.

WeAreHarbinger wrote:If anything this Ark is going to be launched pre London. How i imagine it will go

*Commander Shepard gives great speech with vague gender reference wishing them good luck on their journey*
*Shepard heads to London*
*Ark heads off*
*cyro/stasis sleep intensifies*
*wake up*
Ryder: "We made it" "We'll never know if Shepard did their thing and saved the galaxy"
and... *story*.

That's just one example, but you get my meaning. They can kick these novels off anywhere before London and they don't have to touch the ending whatsoever.

it's all bullshit though.

They leave Shepard and the Military to die while they feck off un-announced to the promised land?

Sorry but I think Mac Walters wrote himself into a corner and is going to ditchME3 because it doesn't fit in with his new 'story', ergo fliping the finger at anyone who bought ME3 or even played ME3.