(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Rifneno wrote:The reason I yell that people I'm arguing with are idiots, is because they're idiots.  You idiot.  Do you know what a "false equivalence" is?  Because the Zha'til were so integrated into the Zha to the point that they were basically the same entity.  You know, like synthesis.  The geth, meanwhile, are merely installed into quarian suits.  You're comparing installing something so deep into your being that you become intertwined, to a piece of clothing.

Clothing? The Quarians use implants. Talk about false equivalences. But never mind.

Also, I wasn't talking about you yelling that people are idiots, but IronicParticle. But yeah, I see the resemblance. ;)

I don't think we're actually seeing in-game footage in that trailer. This strikes me as yet another general 'space exploration' type promo that has no actual relation to the story.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Rifneno wrote:The reason I yell that people I'm arguing with are idiots, is because they're idiots.  You idiot.  Do you know what a "false equivalence" is?  Because the Zha'til were so integrated into the Zha to the point that they were basically the same entity.  You know, like synthesis.  The geth, meanwhile, are merely installed into quarian suits.  You're comparing installing something so deep into your being that you become intertwined, to a piece of clothing.

Clothing? The Quarians use implants. Talk about false equivalences. But never mind.

Also, I wasn't talking about you yelling that people are idiots, but IronicParticle. But yeah, I see the resemblance. ;)

Yeah the Quarians use implants, the same as just about every single beeing in the Mass Effect universe uses implants in some way or other. But the Geth are beeing uploaded to the suits and there is no indications those suits are anything but that, suits.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I don't think we're actually seeing in-game footage in that trailer. This strikes me as yet another general 'space exploration' type promo that has no actual relation to the story.

I mean they DO test the actual gameplay as they're working on it. So it COULD be in-game, to that extent. It looks like gameplay footage when the character jetpacks to the roof.

However that doesn't mean the character we see is the one we'll get. Since during testing the gameplay they could use basically any model for the controlled character. Especially a new squadmate. It's also possible that, that character is a custom created character. The odds are highly likely that no matter who the protag is in the new game, that we're going to be able to customize their looks.

So all around, this footage doesn't reveal much beyond graphics and jetpack mechanics at best.

Well the Organic Weaponry is a nice touch. It kinda hints at some of the technological advancements humanity has undergone since ME3. So they're keeping up with that aspect of the series.

Although it's quite strange and suspicious in and of itself. Organic Weaponry? That's something that reeks of both the Reapers and the Leviathans.

IronicDevice wrote:

Clothing? The Quarians use implants. Talk about false equivalences. But never mind.

The game specifically says that the geth are being installed into the quarians' suits.  Their suits.  Nothing more.  Take your headcanons and piss off.

Rifneno wrote:

IronicDevice wrote:

Clothing? The Quarians use implants. Talk about false equivalences. But never mind.

The game specifically says that the geth are being installed into the quarians' suits.  Their suits.  Nothing more.  Take your headcanons and piss off.

To help boost their immune systems, remember? I don't see how that is accomplished without implants.

And for the record, I don't need to discuss this. You're the one who keeps this going. It's fine, we don't need to agree.

If the suits manage the immune system through the release of biochemical aide to combat biological and chemical contaminants it wouldn't necessarily require any integration of foreign tech into the their bodies. At least that's my suggestion

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

Rifneno wrote:

IronicDevice wrote:

Clothing? The Quarians use implants. Talk about false equivalences. But never mind.

The game specifically says that the geth are being installed into the quarians' suits.  Their suits.  Nothing more.  Take your headcanons and piss off.

To help boost their immune systems, remember? I don't see how that is accomplished without implants.

And for the record, I don't need to discuss this. You're the one who keeps this going. It's fine, we don't need to agree.

In order to boost their immune systems back up to par they must be exposed to something other than their suit environment. An AI in the suit could potentially open the suit briefly to exposure and seal it up again (We know that Qurian suits at least to an extend can seal themselves off when they incur damage) thus allowing continious, but harmless or almost harmless exposure as managed by the AI, kickstarting the immune system at minimum risk.

But above that it is still just a suit that can be taken off physically. A very fancy suit, but it is not power armor or implants.

Oh for the love of...  the Zha'til are a warning of how the Quarian-Geth alliance might end up in the far future under Reaper influence.  Of course there's not direct and immediate equivalence.  That the Quarians would allow the Geth to modify their physiology at the level of their precious immune systems via their suits is a FIRST STEP in the direction of letting the Geth help them adapt their physiology further (and let's face it: the Quarians need work).  No, it's not the same as Zha'til modifying Zha DNA, BECAUSE THEY AREN'T AT THAT STEP YET!!!  No, there's no guarantee that the Geth are going to turn on the Quarians later after gaining their trust and integrating themselves into every aspect of Quarian life or that they will ever reach the point where the Quarians allow their own DNA to be synthetically rewritten (hello, Synthesis!).  It is simply a fear about a possible future based on Javik's tale of the Metacon wars.

It'd be less of an issue if not for the fact that we know that the Reapers love to pull the same old tricks over and over again and we know that the Geth have had direct Reaper influence on their programming.  Is it something that will play out in the time frame of "WE NEED YOUR FLEETS!"?  Of course not!  The process of integration would take generations!  Is it reason enough to kill the Geth?  I struggle with that.

I don't trust anything about Priority: Earth, especially not the cut scenes outside of the breath sequence.  Joker's "We're taking heavy casualties up here!" comment when Shepard first calls the Normandy back down literally does not jive with everything else seen or heard.  Do I think the Geth may have turned on the allied fleet?  It's a low possibility that would rankle some fans, but I think that the potential for retconning in "what really happened" is enormous and an all-out Reaper win isn't an idea I can shake off. The Reapers simply love to turn your own friends against you.

Hell, the Quarians are probably screwed no matter what.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:To help boost their immune systems, remember? I don't see how that is accomplished without implants.

And that matters because you're the head quarian suit designer.

Oh wait, no you're not! Your limited imagination is completely meaningless!

As others have already pointed out, there's ways. The game says suit. Not implant, not genome alternating nanomachines, SUIT. That's what it is. Deal. With. It. Take this bullshit conjecture, and stick it with the rest of the bullshit conjecture where "wut if the Reapers can controll legion but they never do so we dont no????" and all, and just fucking set fire to the whole pile of crazy.

And for the record, I don't need to discuss this. You're the one who keeps this going. It's fine, we don't need to agree.

Are you acting like you're doing me some kind of favor by trying (and failing spectacularly) to defend your own idiotic theory? This isn't FOX News. When someone says something, it's their job to debate the point and convince the group that the idea is good.

If this is going to end like the last time we debated the geth, where you throw a tantrum and leave the forum for a few months, can we just skip to that part?

ZerebusPrime wrote:Oh for the love of...  the Zha'til are a warning of how the Quarian-Geth alliance might end up in the far future under Reaper influence.  Of course there's not direct and immediate equivalence.  That the Quarians would allow the Geth to modify their physiology at the level of their precious immune systems via their suits is a FIRST STEP in the direction of letting the Geth help them adapt their physiology further (and let's face it: the Quarians need work).  No, it's not the same as Zha'til modifying Zha DNA, BECAUSE THEY AREN'T AT THAT STEP YET!!!  No, there's no guarantee that the Geth are going to turn on the Quarians later after gaining their trust and integrating themselves into every aspect of Quarian life or that they will ever reach the point where the Quarians allow their own DNA to be synthetically rewritten (hello, Synthesis!).  It is simply a fear about a possible future based on Javik's tale of the Metacon wars.

This is a shame. I thought you were smart enough to accept the real reason for the inconsistencies when I pointed out it: that Legion's writer left between games and they didn't know what the fuck to do with him. I'm not even just guessing, they said as much at one point after people complained that Legion got dicked in Citadel. There's two types of evidence for the geth thing: legitimate points that are the result of Legion getting dicked by the writing team, and hallucinations of reality like IronicDevice's nonsense about the Reapers saving their trump card for something bigger than the final battle with the entire galactic military.

Anyway. Just for you.

It'd be less of an issue if not for the fact that we know that the Reapers love to pull the same old tricks over and over again and we know that the Geth have had direct Reaper influence on their programming.

You mean like every single FTL capable ship in the galaxy, as well as a bunch of other stuff? Or does that not count because it doesn't align with your random accusations against an entire race?

Is it something that will play out in the time frame of "WE NEED YOUR FLEETS!"?  Of course not!  The process of integration would take generations!  Is it reason enough to kill the Geth?  I struggle with that.

Yeah, that seems likely. I can definitely see BW making it so there's no way to save the geth, The company that's about as edgy as a spoon will definitely take a beloved species, an entire species, and force the player to either kill them all or watch them become slaves to the big bad. That's reasonable.

I don't trust anything about Priority: Earth, especially not the cut scenes outside of the breath sequence.  Joker's "We're taking heavy casualties up here!" comment when Shepard first calls the Normandy back down literally does not jive with everything else seen or heard.

... You know those big black things? Those are Reapers. They're a powerful Lovecraftian horror. And they outnumber and outgun the allied fleets. By a lot.

A fucking huge amount.

Do I think the Geth may have turned on the allied fleet?

Either that or they're just taking a lot of casualties because they're fighting a galactic invasion fleet of outer gods.

Ya'know, just putting that out there.

It's a low possibility that would rankle some fans, but I think that the potential for retconning in "what really happened" is enormous and an all-out Reaper win isn't an idea I can shake off.

Considering the game flatly tells you that the fleets have no chance against the Reapers and it's all just a delaying tactic to try to use the Crucible...

So how much gasoline do I need to drink before I stop understanding that the zha'til, a story about an organic race binding with machines to the point of becoming the same entity, isn't about the geth at all and is just another in the long list of synthesis attempts turning to abject horror?

Agreed with ZP. More than likely the process would take generations.

I'm not saying it's inevitable either. I'm just saying it's not an unthinkable possibility.

Rif, I don't need to discuss this because we've been over this before in depth. It would be beating a dead horse. Your arguments aren't convincing me and vice versa. It's pointless. I don't need to be 'right'. I don't care enough about the subject to be wasting my energy on this. Also, I don't exactly remember throwing a tantrum, but I'll take your word for it.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Agreed with ZP. More than likely the process would take generations.

I'm not saying it's inevitable either. I'm just saying it's not an unthinkable possibility.

Rif, I don't need to discuss this because we've been over this before in depth. It would be beating a dead horse. Your arguments aren't convincing me and vice versa. It's pointless. I don't need to be 'right'. I don't care enough about the subject to be wasting my energy on this. Also, I don't exactly remember throwing a tantrum, but I'll take your word for it.

There are no generations for it to take place over.

This cycle ends any real possibility of fighting back with this battle. It is all or nothing. If there ever is a time where the Reapers would have a use for any yet hidden indoctrinated agents, now is the time. And guess what, the Reapers are winning that space battle by alot.

It takes 3 dreadnoughts to a Sovreign class and I counted at least 150 Sovreign class in the wide shot of earth. Best case scenario the combined fleets have a 100 dreadnoughts and that is a very, very generous estimate. We would need about 5 times as many dreadnoughts to stand a chance in direct battle and that is a again, generous.

Even so the Reapers will take casulaties, heavy casulaties even compared to their usual and by all indications it takes them a long time to replenish those casulties. Yet those casualties could be reduced quite a bit if the Reapers controlled the most technological advanced fleet of our cycle (sans the Reapers of course). Again, this is the end of this cycle, there will be no effective resistance after this battle. It is do or die.

After this it will be clean up duty, nothing more. At that point the Reapers will take what they need by force and convert or kill anything else. Any long term goals are void unless talking in the next 50.000 years long term.

Rif, Legion's lines in ME2 were both finite and clear enough that any new writer failing to research and comprehend them would have to be a complete and utter tool. My faith in humanity is still *just* strong enough to believe that such a person's writing would not survive peer review intact.

Raistlin Majere wrote:There are no generations for it to take place over.

This cycle ends any real possibility of fighting back with this battle. It is all or nothing. If there ever is a time where the Reapers would have a use for any yet hidden indoctrinated agents, now is the time. And guess what, the Reapers are winning that space battle by alot.

It takes 3 dreadnoughts to a Sovreign class and I counted at least 150 Sovreign class in the wide shot of earth. Best case scenario the combined fleets have a 100 dreadnoughts and that is a very, very generous estimate. We would need about 5 times as many dreadnoughts to stand a chance in direct battle and that is a again, generous.

Even so the Reapers will take casulaties, heavy casulaties even compared to their usual and by all indications it takes them a long time to replenish those casulties. Yet those casualties could be reduced quite a bit if the Reapers controlled the most technological advanced fleet of our cycle (sans the Reapers of course). Again, this is the end of this cycle, there will be no effective resistance after this battle. It is do or die.

After this it will be clean up duty, nothing more. At that point the Reapers will take what they need by force and convert or kill anything else. Any long term goals are void unless talking in the next 50.000 years long term.

QFT. After that battle, that's it. One side has won. The entire galactic military is there for that battle. All that'll be left after this is refugees if the Reapers win. There is no "after."

And since I happen to be a lore nerd, I can say that the amount of dreadnoughts in the galaxy was 86. Pre-invasion. Maybe less, since we don't have an exact number on the geth, just "almost as many as the turians" (I took the turian's number and reduced it by 1). A BUNCH of dreadnoughts were lost in battle between the start of the game and the assault on Earth, so they have significantly less than 86. We don't know how many were lost, but you can Primarch Victus complaining "we lost two of our dreadnoughts in a matter of hours!" at one point. I'd be surprised if there were even 50 left at the end.

ZerebusPrime wrote:Rif, Legion's lines in ME2 were both finite and clear enough that any new writer failing to research and comprehend them would have to be a complete and utter tool.  My faith in humanity is still *just* strong enough to believe that such a person's writing would not survive peer review intact.

(dryly) Well you've got me there. There's no evidence they just stopped giving a shit about some some things.

oh the tali photo of limitless bitchslap.....

Edit: Stupid copyright block. Grrr.

To be honest. If I didn't know any better I'd look a little bit closer at the whole Zha'til situation. Why did the Reapers do that? Was it simply to sabotage that species? Doesn't that seem a bit redundant? They already could've won against the Prothean cycle by brute force.

What if they really WERE experimenting with this "Synthesis" concept. I mean think about it.

If the Reapers are really puppets of the Leviathans to help them better rule the universe. Then they could be looking to make it so the Reapers themselves can proxy-control all organic life in the galaxy. So in the end you get:

Leviathan > Reapers > Everyone Else

But then again it "fits" either way you slice it.

Either synthesis is just a distraction to keep the cycle from winning and thus so more organics can be turned into Reapers. Reapers being the end goal.

Or the Reapers are just tools to find a solution for the Leviathan's to gain permanent and flawless control over everything.

But if I had to pick either. I am skeptical of the idea that the Reapers are the end goal. Considering the Leviathans seem to have a different motive than just "The Harvest". They want "tribute" and while that CAN mean sacrifices. It also obviously just meant that they want slaves to do their handy work.

I will say that the Leviathans by their nature, seem like the more likely masterminds behind everything.

The Reapers have no real will to "rule". They just apparently want to reproduce and maybe experiment with the cycle. But the Leviathans actually act like they desire to just flat out RULE the galaxy. They see themselves as the rightful rulers of it. Which is fitting for building organic-robots that are giant hands, that manage the technological systems(relay network) that were clearly designed to transport giant cuttlefish.

I mean let's be honest. The only real thing we should take away from the Leviathan DLC. Is that the Leviathans are BEHIND ALL OF THIS. That means they /are/ behind the Reapers. Which means we can't trust anything the Leviathans we talk to say and we sure as hell can't think that their meeting with shep was for anything short of brainwashing him.

I say we put all this Zha'til stuff on the backburner and brace for N7 day. No doubt my limited faith in humanity will be put to the test again right before election day obliterates it. I can only process so much disappointment at once.

it's here.... (or not as the case may be)

a day is 24 hours yes?

nothing here yet. probably a blessing.

Probably not be here till later, they'll want an EU & U.S audience. I really want a storyline reveal, like an actual story reveal. Not just "We're off to Andromeda because reasons". I want to know why, i want to know what's so big we have to either A. Abandon a reaper war, B. Retcon it, or C. Fuck off in the middle of one because exploration...

Edit: Looks like a trailer according to their Twitter.